Did Discord trick Celestia during Twilight's Kingdom?

[ScarfaceOne 263]

OK, so I was watching Pony Thread Simulator, I know it's supposed to be tongue in cheek humour but there was one theory in it that really blew my mind, Discord winked at the end of Twilight's Kingdom part 2, to Celestia. Implying that he deliberately betrayed Equestria simply for the sake of gaining the medallion that Tirek had. Which is exactly what happened in Metal Gear Solid 3, the boss betrays the US to get the philosopher's legacy back from Volgin. And Snake had to kill her. So Discord deliberately joined Tirek as part of a ruse, Shining, Celestia, his ''Back Off Traitor!!!'' quote? It was all an elaborate ruse. So Twilight could understand. They deliberately allowed Tirek to destroy everything as they wanted Twilight to learn. Endangering Equestria in the progress. Now that would be a scandal to talk about. Even if it's not official. It could make a great fan-fic story.

[Pastel 7,630]

Hahaha, I've never thought of that. xD

But no, I don't think that's what his wink meant, that would be a bit too complicated and I'm sure the writers didn't think of that.

Edited April 16, 2015 by Blobulle

[Jeric 46,876]

I'm going to accept that headcanon simply based on the fact you referenced Snake Eater.

 

Actually that is an interesting take on the wink. Plays into how Discord actually giftwrapped the solution for Twilight earlier on.

[Ashen Pathfinder 16,163]

Well, I guess it does make sense here and there, though I'd be wary about accepting such a fan-canon; personally. Not that there is anythin inherantly wrong with it; just that it makes Celestia & crew look a lot more unhanded than the show is willing to let on.

[ArcheoPony 76]

Discord isn't the grand chess master or secretive planner many think he is that trolls people. He comes with stuff up as he goes on. He genuinely messed up with the whole Tirek thing.

 

And his scene with Celestia near the end wasn't even part of the initial script, but added by one of the storyboard artists to fill in the time gap.

[Adorkable 2,737]

That's quite a bit of meaning behind a single wink, lol. But there are tons of theories of what exactly Discord was thinking in Twilight's Kingdom. A fairly common one is that Discord knew how things would play out, while others say he just reverted back to his old nature. I think it's completely possible that he knew what would happen, but same goes for the other side of the coin.

[Commissar Alexer 763]

As ArcheoPony said, last scence was a joke by the artists and animators.

[ArcheoPony 76]

That's quite a bit of meaning behind a single wink, lol. But there are tons of theories of what exactly Discord was thinking in Twilight's Kingdom. A fairly common one is that Discord knew how things would play out, while others say he just reverted back to his old nature. I think it's completely possible that he knew what would happen, but same goes for the other side of the coin.

It was all apologetic on his part. The wink basically translates to "here's some flowers cause I'm really sorry, you can count on the fact that I've learned to cherish my friends so this won't happen again".

 

The storyboard artist simply tried to add a bit more to the message Meghan was trying to convey in her script. There really isn't anything deep outside being apologetic.

[Cwanky 17,709]

So what you're really suggesting is that Discord deceived Celestia in order to deceive Tirek at the end. Its interesting, if not overly complicated, but its unlikely.

 

There's several ways that this theory is shot down. When Discord was betrayed by Tirek, he showed sincere, ifnot convincing remorse and sorrow. Had he not, then his response would be far less believable.

 

Moreover though, The Tree of Harmony of Recognizes true sincere virtue and goodness. Look to the earlier example in The Return of Harmony with the Elements of Harmony, which are basically powered by the same force that powers the Tree of Harmony. Spike wasn't recognized as the Element of Loyalty simply because the true did not recognize him as being someone of pure loyalty, unlike Rainbow Dash.

 

Similarly, the Tree of Harmony recognizes whenever one of the wielders of the Elements of Harmony show that they recgnize what there virtue is reflected through a symbol that reflects that. In order for Scorpan's Amulet to truly become a symbol and key of Friendship, Discord had to see it as such. This was possible because Discord truly believed that he had true Friendship with Tirek, unlike the Mane 6, which is what made his betrayal all the more devastating.

 

Thus, when Twilight made a sincere good faith gesture of friendship to Discord by forgiving him and acknowledging him as a friend, in spite of all he did, the amulet was able to truly become the symbol of friendship that it was. Had Discord been acting and lying the whole time, the Tree of Harmony would have saw through that and rejected the amulet.

 

There was no acting on Discord's part. If anyone can vet for Discord's virtue and trustworthiness, its the Tree of Harmony.

[Adorkable 2,737]

The storyboard artist simply tried to add a bit more to the message Meghan was trying to convey in her script. There really isn't anything deep outside being apologetic.

 

Makes sense. You wouldn't happen to have a source to that info, would you?

[ArcheoPony 76]

Makes sense. You wouldn't happen to have a source to that info, would you?

Had to dig it up. So yeah, it was all don't during the boarding/animating part of the process.

[Adorkable 2,737]

Ah, alright then. But no writer has ever directly stated what Discord was thinking during Twilight's Kingdom? Not just the flowers, but just his mind set in general.

[ArcheoPony 76]

Not that I can remember. But that's a nice question to ask at a con. I'd do it but I doubt I'll remember from now until August, heh..

 

Maybe Jim Miller could be asked over on Twitter? Though he isn't a writer.

[Adorkable 2,737]

Sorry for being a noob when it comes to show staff, but what exactly does Jim do?

[ArcheoPony 76]

Sorry for being a noob when it comes to show staff, but what exactly does Jim do?

He is the current show director.

[Adorkable 2,737]

Well, it's an idea! I'll attempt to if I can think of an easy way to word it with the character limit. It is an interesting theory that Discord knew what he was doing. If so, then he's a marvelous actor. Especially the part where Fluttershy was crying.

[ScarfaceOne 263]

So what you're really suggesting is that Discord deceived Celestia in order to deceive Tirek at the end. Its interesting, if not overly complicated, but its unlikely.

 

There's several ways that this theory is shot down. When Discord was betrayed by Tirek, he showed sincere, ifnot convincing remorse and sorrow. Had he not, then his response would be far less believable.

 

Moreover though, The Tree of Harmony of Recognizes true sincere virtue and goodness. Look to the earlier example in The Return of Harmony with the Elements of Harmony, which are basically powered by the same force that powers the Tree of Harmony. Spike wasn't recognized as the Element of Loyalty simply because the true did not recognize him as being someone of pure loyalty, unlike Rainbow Dash.

 

Similarly, the Tree of Harmony recognizes whenever one of the wielders of the Elements of Harmony show that they recgnize what there virtue is reflected through a symbol that reflects that. In order for Scorpan's Amulet to truly become a symbol and key of Friendship, Discord had to see it as such. This was possible because Discord truly believed that he had true Friendship with Tirek, unlike the Mane 6, which is what made his betrayal all the more devastating.

 

Thus, when Twilight made a sincere good faith gesture of friendship to Discord by forgiving him and acknowledging him as a friend, in spite of all he did, the amulet was able to truly become the symbol of friendship that it was. Had Discord been acting and lying the whole time, the Tree of Harmony would have saw through that and rejected the amulet.

 

There was no acting on Discord's part. If anyone can vet for Discord's virtue and trustworthiness, its the Tree of Harmony.

 

 

WAIT WHAT!!!? You mean, the keys. Spitfire did not know that it was a key? Cheese Sandwich did not create Boneless? None of them knew? The Ponies created those keys themselves? Then Why didn't they just get some random items and perform friendship lessons!!! *MIND BLOWN*.

[Twilight Frost 271]

If this were true, it would make celestia, luna, and discord every bit as evil as god.

 

It wouldn't matter what "lesson" they are trying to teach twilight. They put the lives if millions of ponies in danger by doing all of that. I do not think celestia and the rest are like that. They would never had done all that just to teach twilight a lesson in friendship when she would had just learned the same lesson in a different way later on.

[ScarfaceOne 263]

WAIT WHAT!!!? You mean, the keys. Spitfire did not know that it was a key? Cheese Sandwich did not create Boneless? None of them knew? The Ponies created those keys themselves? Then Why didn't they just get some random items and perform friendship lessons!!! *MIND BLOWN*.

 

I just need Cwanky to answer this for me. Because my mind has been blown. The Artifact is automatically created, so then why didn't they get a random item?

So what you're really suggesting is that Discord deceived Celestia in order to deceive Tirek at the end. Its interesting, if not overly complicated, but its unlikely.

 

There's several ways that this theory is shot down. When Discord was betrayed by Tirek, he showed sincere, ifnot convincing remorse and sorrow. Had he not, then his response would be far less believable.

 

Moreover though, The Tree of Harmony of Recognizes true sincere virtue and goodness. Look to the earlier example in The Return of Harmony with the Elements of Harmony, which are basically powered by the same force that powers the Tree of Harmony. Spike wasn't recognized as the Element of Loyalty simply because the true did not recognize him as being someone of pure loyalty, unlike Rainbow Dash.

 

Similarly, the Tree of Harmony recognizes whenever one of the wielders of the Elements of Harmony show that they recgnize what there virtue is reflected through a symbol that reflects that. In order for Scorpan's Amulet to truly become a symbol and key of Friendship, Discord had to see it as such. This was possible because Discord truly believed that he had true Friendship with Tirek, unlike the Mane 6, which is what made his betrayal all the more devastating.

 

Thus, when Twilight made a sincere good faith gesture of friendship to Discord by forgiving him and acknowledging him as a friend, in spite of all he did, the amulet was able to truly become the symbol of friendship that it was. Had Discord been acting and lying the whole time, the Tree of Harmony would have saw through that and rejected the amulet.

 

There was no acting on Discord's part. If anyone can vet for Discord's virtue and trustworthiness, its the Tree of Harmony.

 

Which implys that Cheese Sandwich, Spitfire, Seabreeze, Coco Pommel etc did not create those artifacts, so anything could have been, even some random shop keeper could have. So some random shopkeeper could have sold Pinkie Pie a blade of grass she thinks she will enjoy and Pinkie, for some wierd reason, loves it. And it becomes a key artifact, so they could have all got blades of grass from shopkeepers.

Edited April 17, 2015 by ScarfaceOne

[UnknownFry 169]

No even if Discord did betray certain trusts it was Discord himself that was tricked in the long run by Tirek.

[ScarfaceOne 263]

So what you're really suggesting is that Discord deceived Celestia in order to deceive Tirek at the end. Its interesting, if not overly complicated, but its unlikely.

 

There's several ways that this theory is shot down. When Discord was betrayed by Tirek, he showed sincere, ifnot convincing remorse and sorrow. Had he not, then his response would be far less believable.

 

Moreover though, The Tree of Harmony of Recognizes true sincere virtue and goodness. Look to the earlier example in The Return of Harmony with the Elements of Harmony, which are basically powered by the same force that powers the Tree of Harmony. Spike wasn't recognized as the Element of Loyalty simply because the true did not recognize him as being someone of pure loyalty, unlike Rainbow Dash.

 

Similarly, the Tree of Harmony recognizes whenever one of the wielders of the Elements of Harmony show that they recgnize what there virtue is reflected through a symbol that reflects that. In order for Scorpan's Amulet to truly become a symbol and key of Friendship, Discord had to see it as such. This was possible because Discord truly believed that he had true Friendship with Tirek, unlike the Mane 6, which is what made his betrayal all the more devastating.

 

Thus, when Twilight made a sincere good faith gesture of friendship to Discord by forgiving him and acknowledging him as a friend, in spite of all he did, the amulet was able to truly become the symbol of friendship that it was. Had Discord been acting and lying the whole time, the Tree of Harmony would have saw through that and rejected the amulet.

 

There was no acting on Discord's part. If anyone can vet for Discord's virtue and trustworthiness, its the Tree of Harmony.

 

 

This is the bit I am still most confused about. It indicates that Coco Pommel did not know, or created them. Etc. So then why didn't they get Blades of Grass?

[Fhaolan 4,491]

A couple of points:

 

Discord, being a creature of chaos, may just be in the habit of taking credit for chaotic events. Regardless of whether he's really responsible, or just riding the wave. Could you actually see anything turning out well, and him *not* claiming responsibility? That's really part of his nature.

 

The keys of Harmony (or whatever they're being called now) were likely empowered by symbolism. They were random objects, but they direct meaning to the Mane6. What they were physically was irrelevant. Applejack's coin, for instance was one of possibly millions of identical coins. But that specific one had symbolic meaning to Applejack. It represented Honesty to her. Basically, the objects turned into keys because the former Bearers of the Elements made them into symbols of the Elements they themselves still represented. Any object could have been the Key of Magic/Friendship for Twilight, if she believed it represented an event where someone learned Friendship from Twilight's actions. "The power was in her the whole time" trope.

[ScarfaceOne 263]

A couple of points:

 

Discord, being a creature of chaos, may just be in the habit of taking credit for chaotic events. Regardless of whether he's really responsible, or just riding the wave. Could you actually see anything turning out well, and him *not* claiming responsibility? That's really part of his nature.

 

The keys of Harmony (or whatever they're being called now) were likely empowered by symbolism. They were random objects, but they direct meaning to the Mane6. What they were physically was irrelevant. Applejack's coin, for instance was one of possibly millions of identical coins. But that specific one had symbolic meaning to Applejack. It represented Honesty to her. Basically, the objects turned into keys because the former Bearers of the Elements made them into symbols of the Elements they themselves still represented. Any object could have been the Key of Magic/Friendship for Twilight, if she believed it represented an event where someone learned Friendship from Twilight's actions. "The power was in her the whole time" trope.

 

Oh I get it, so you just have to believe in something for it turn into a key? Then why did they not all get six blades and said I very honestly, loyally, generously, magically, kindly, funnily swear that this blade of grass will be my key. It's easy!!! and then, bye bye Tirek.

[Fhaolan 4,491]

Oh I get it, so you just have to believe in something for it turn into a key? Then why did they not all get six blades and said I very honestly, loyally, generously, magically, kindly, funnily swear that this blade of grass will be my key. It's easy!!! and then, bye bye Tirek.

Because that's not the way belief works. You can *say* you believe something you know is not true as much as you want, and it doesn't make a difference. They would have to be trained in self-hypnotism to consciously change that belief to that extent, and the magic of the Tree of Harmony would likely reject that effort as 'not good enough' for it's purposes.

 

Due to the Tree of Harmony acting in what appears to be a conscious manner, Magic in this world also seems to have a form of consciousness. It knows if you've been bad or good, so be good for goodness' sake. You can't short-cut the process because the process is actively waiting for you to follow through in good faith.

[ScarfaceOne 263]

A couple of points:

 

Discord, being a creature of chaos, may just be in the habit of taking credit for chaotic events. Regardless of whether he's really responsible, or just riding the wave. Could you actually see anything turning out well, and him *not* claiming responsibility? That's really part of his nature.

 

The keys of Harmony (or whatever they're being called now) were likely empowered by symbolism. They were random objects, but they direct meaning to the Mane6. What they were physically was irrelevant. Applejack's coin, for instance was one of possibly millions of identical coins. But that specific one had symbolic meaning to Applejack. It represented Honesty to her. Basically, the objects turned into keys because the former Bearers of the Elements made them into symbols of the Elements they themselves still represented. Any object could have been the Key of Magic/Friendship for Twilight, if she believed it represented an event where someone learned Friendship from Twilight's actions. "The power was in her the whole time" trope.

 

 

So it was that basic, if they just got blades of grass, then they believed in their element in them, then it would be easy. But Unlikely to be good items, so I reckon specific Items must be chosen, if they produce it themselves, then Celestia must have been testing their own Stupidity. ''I don't know where they are'' they were in them all along!!! So Celestia must have been testing their own Stupidity by letting Discord betray her, telling Shining to act like it's a horrible thing, and endangering Equestria. So that they can prove their worth, the entire Galloping Gala was a ploy, the Wedding, Nightmare Moon, all of it!!! It was all a ploy be celestia to test their Stupidity. She thinks that she can teach them more by making them learn from Stupidity, in other words, deliberate mistakes. If you ask Discord ''Did you betray Equestria?''. He would probably say ''I Didn't''.

Because that's not the way belief works. You can *say* you believe something you know is not true as much as you want, and it doesn't make a difference. They would have to be trained in self-hypnotism to consciously change that belief to that extent, and the magic of the Tree of Harmony would likely reject that effort as 'not good enough' for it's purposes.

 

Due to the Tree of Harmony acting in what appears to be a conscious manner, Magic in this world also seems to have a form of consciousness. It knows if you've been bad or good, so be good for goodness' sake. You can't short-cut the process because the process is actively waiting for you to follow through in good faith.

 

Wait a minute, you mean that they are possessed by the tree as a Hive Mind? Sound's scary. But they act independent of each other so, wait a minute, are those rainbows in those eyes transmissions from the tree? What if the tree decides when, it can possess anyone. THE TREE OF HARMONY IS BORG!!!