Spike, Character or Plot Device

[Singe 2,111]

What's the problem with that? I could say the same about Fluttershy, how she tried being a fashion model but decided she was content caring for animals. If Spike enjoys being a servant, what's wrong with that?

 

Fluttershy's long term goal is to get over her shyness. She has episodes where she's doing it by babysteps and what is socially acceptable. They did give her a dream to be a major part of The Pony Tones after she conquers her stage fright.

 

It's a low bar for Spike and means the writers don't have to give him anything major in future episodes. Spike chose to turn his back on being a normal dragon and choosing to be a pony pleasing dragon.

Edited June 22, 2015 by Singe

[Not Yellow Diamond 925]

 

 

I see what you're saying, but I disagree. When you make a mistake in real life, it doesn't mean you will never make the same mistake again. Especially when we're talking about a kid. Furthermore, I don't recall which other episode in the series Spike became addicted to power and abused it at other ponies' expense.

 

I think you missed the moral... it wasn't about power, it was about being recognized. Many, many times in the series he has just wanted to be heard and earn his own place, sort of. He wants to be known and be SOMEBODY, ANYBODY but he is a dragon among ponies, a daisy among roses, so it's hard for him to fit in, to feel self worth, as you can tell in, "Owl's Well that Ends Well, Dragon Quest, Equestria Games, Power Ponies, etc." That's the real moral, trying to fit in. 

 

But does it not become a slight bit irritating to see the same lesson learned 5 - 7 times, yes they are all different but all under the same umbrella. It's like beating a dead horse for every last breath, it is TIRING, it is POINTLESS, to watch it over and over again. Not only that but often times you see him taking a step forward, and then stepping back. There have been entire episode where he has been confident and felt like he mattered but then the VERY NEXT, he would step back. (Inspiration Manifestation, Equestria Games) 

 

The connection I draw between those is in Inspiration Manifestation he knew he had to speak with Rarity and knew he would have to be honest with her and eventually built up the confidence to do so. The next episode later he feels he is worth nothing again... WHY?!?

 

If you are doing right, everyone is telling you that you are doing right, you have done no wrong and you are being supported, then why is that you keep devolving if everything is going right? 

 

I have a theory, which I will share if necessary but I think I made my point, I see your standpoint and it's solid but it seems like their are too many contrivances that steer it away from accuracy. I want to hear more though, perhaps I've overlooked something or you have more to say; I'd love to hear about it.

[Singe 2,111]

Spike is a baby trying to quickly grow up in life and find some kind of satisfaction living in a pony world. Given that he can't be a natural grown dragon without ripping Ponyville a new one.

Edited June 22, 2015 by Singe

[LZRD WZRD 1,929]

 

 

I think you missed the moral... it wasn't about power, it was about being recognized. Many, many times in the series he has just wanted to be heard and earn his own place, sort of. He wants to be known and be SOMEBODY, ANYBODY but he is a dragon among ponies, a daisy among roses, so it's hard for him to fit in, to feel self worth, as you can tell in, "Owl's Well that Ends Well, Dragon Quest, Equestria Games, Power Ponies, etc." That's the real moral, trying to fit in. 

 

I see what you're saying, but all of those episodes deal with Spike and his self worth in different ways. Owl's Well is about him feeling insecure and taking extreme actions, rather than talking to Twilight about them.

 

Dragon Quest was about him trying to find people he could relate to, but instead he realized that people who legitimately cared about him was more important than fitting in.

 

See, they all come from a similar place, but they deal with Spike in different ways.

[Not Yellow Diamond 925]

 

 

I see what you're saying, but all of those episodes deal with Spike and his self worth in different ways. Owl's Well is about him feeling insecure and taking extreme actions, rather than talking to Twilight about them.   Dragon Quest was about him trying to find people he could relate to, but instead he realized that people who legitimately cared about him was more important than fitting in.   See, they all come from a similar place, but they deal with Spike in different ways.

 

Yes, I agree with you.

 

That's why I said it is all under the same umbrella, if that makes sense to you.  

[Singe 2,111]

Spike's self-esteem episodes are about as old as Granny Smith. I think the Dragon Quest episode killed it for Spike by making him turn his back on being a dragon too early. The show has a habit of generally making dragons look bad.

Edited June 22, 2015 by Singe

[LZRD WZRD 1,929]

Yes, I agree with you.

 

That's why I said it is all under the same umbrella, if that makes sense to you.

 

So I guess what you're saying is that you want a completely different type of conflict all together for Spike? I understand that, but for me I like seeing all of the different ways Spike has to deal with his issues, especially since they're never completely resolved. He still has yet to form a concrete identity which is what most of his episodes are about. Until that happens, until he gets that "ahah!" moment (just like the CMC), he's going to continue struggling with finding his role. He likes being Twilight's assistant, but previous episodes show he's not satisfied with who he is and how others perceive him. This one, which shows him living someone else's life, seems to affirm that he's still working on this.

 

Personally, I find this to be one of the more interesting and relatable conflicts on the show and quite honestly I'm surprised it doesn't resonate with more people.

Spike's self-esteem episodes are about as old as Granny Smith. I think the Dragon Quest episode killed it for Spike by making him turn his back on being a dragon too early. The show has a habit of generally making dragons look bad.

He didn't turn his back on being a dragon. The very next season there was an episode called Spike At Your Service where the entire story is based around him trying to be associated with dragons (via his incessant adherence to the dragon code)

[Not Yellow Diamond 925]

 

 

Personally, I find this to be one of the more interesting and relatable conflicts on the show and quite honestly I'm surprised it doesn't resonate with more people.

 

I, like yourself would think that but I have a couple of questions for you. How many times has Spike been put into an episode and taken out just as easily as he was put in it? And can you name a trait or an indication of his development/growth of his character in ANY aspect?  

 

(I love talks like this Civilized debates, this is how it is done Everypony)

[Shanks 10,816]

Meh. People take it too seriously. If you think about it, AJ and Fluttershy have had very little "development" throughout the series as well.

It is not just how much a character is developed, it is how they are developed. Spike had some excellent development in seasons 1 and 2 but very little QUALITY development since then with his episodes devolving into the repetitive, stale pattern of Spike as the official show fuck up. Applejack is the most mature and level headed character so is more difficult to develop than the others and Fluttershy has been a mixed bag with some good development but also some inconsistencies and plot convenience with her learing and re learning certain morals used a bit too much in some seasons. Her character development lately has been pretty good though.

 

 

In Spike at Your Service, we see the adventure inside. He creates his own "Dragon Code" to feel like he matters, and to feel strong and empowered. I had a similar "code" when I was young. It's a good idea that gets overshadowed too often.

Spike at Your Service had serious pacing problems with Spike screwing up royally right away at tasks that are normally easy for him, it would have been much more believable if he had done the tasks well at first but then gradually started to screw up as he started to over whelm himself through over work. The idea and concept for the episode was good but the execution was a bit flawed. I will admit that when I first watched it though I was so happy to get another AJ episode that I overlooked a lot of stuff I wouldn't have otherwise and caught later.

 

 

Flanderized? One-dimensional? In what way was Spike one-dimensional in the latest episode? This is a demonstrably false statement and ignores the entire premise of the episode. Spike starts off as a responsible and attentive servant, yet when given a taste of power, he becomes corrupted and selfish. He literally transforms from selfless to selfish over the course of the episode.

True, but he still dosen't escape the repetitive joke character role that he has been cast in way too many times. Becoming corrupted by power of a position is believable, but allowing basic safety hazards to go unaddressed like the broken pipe and trees speaks of stupidity that again places him in joke character category. What may have made this episode a tad better would be less immediate and obvious stupidity and perhaps have Spike milk a few things because he feels like he is not taken seriously and wants somepony to listen to him for once even if those listening are under the false impression that he is speaking for someone else. The concept is sound but the execution is akin to performing delicate surgery with a chainsaw and conking someone on the head with a mallet for the anesthetic.

 

 

Actually, Dragon Quest does have a follow-up: Spike At Your Service. It shows Spike struggling to identify with his own race (following the dragon code is an attempt to fit into his image of what a dragon ought to be) to the point where it becomes clear that his actions are entirely self-serving (ironic considering the title of the episode).

The dragon code idea is a good one, just one that was flawed in its execution mainly with Spike screwing up way too much and too soon for any of it to actually be believable. Spike forming his own sort of moral code is a good idea and one that I would like to see a bit more of actually, though what I meant by a follow up is perhaps one where Spike meets someone else of his own kinds that is not a complete sociopath. Perhaps we get introduced to the idea that there are different species of dragons, dragons with different motives, walks of life ect...

[SilverComet 170]

Every time they repeat a lesson like if it was the first time; the inconsistencies in the character are carried back from past events entirely missing from his life (or differently played).

Edited June 22, 2015 by SilverComet

[LZRD WZRD 1,929]

I, like yourself would think that but I have a couple of questions for you. How many times has Spike been put into an episode and taken out just as easily as he was put in it? And can you name a trait or an indication of his development/growth of his character in ANY aspect?

 

(I love talks like this Civilized debates, this is how it is done Everypony)

I'm not quite sure about the first question, could you reference some episodes please?

 

For the second question, I'd say Spike has shown growth by not repeating past mistakes (getting jealous like in Owl's Well . . . or shoving his identity at others like in Spike At Your Service).

 

Furthermore for development, I'd propose Spike At Your Service was the next logical step from Dragon Quest. Unable to find dragons he could identify with, Spike instead embraces part of what he sees being a dragon is (adhering to the dragon code) in an attempt to fit in. Since he can't fit in with dragons in person, he attempts to do so in spirit.

Edited June 22, 2015 by LZRD WZRD

[Magic Gypsy Dice 347]

*Wall disintegrates*

Oh sorry I was tasting my new V Acid gun!

I come from CTAM and as for Spike he is comedy where none is needed.

[Not Yellow Diamond 925]

I'm not quite sure about the first question, could you reference some episodes please? For the second question, I'd say Spike has shown growth by not repeating past mistakes (getting jealous like in Owl's Well . . . or shoving his identity at others like in Spike At Your Service). Furthermore for development, I'd propose Spike At Your Service was the next logical step from Dragon Quest. Unable to find dragons he could identify with, Spike instead embraces part of what he sees being a dragon is (adhering to the dragon code) in an attempt to fit in. Since he can't fit in with dragons in person, he attempts to do so in spirit.

 

While that is true... his character actually devolves. Like he is really inconsistent. One episode he can be bold and independent but the next he can be the opposite...  I don't think I have to defend that point all too much in all honesty. No one in IRL or cartoon should change so sporadically over the time he has grown he has stumbled. Sooooo.....yeah... sorry too tired to defend my opinion. 

 

As for the Dragon Quest.... eh, I guess but he goes against codes and stuff for logic in Inspiration Manifestation.... sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo, I'm not sure how that'd really work? I just see ANOTHER plot hole with the connection

Edited June 22, 2015 by louisvillepride

[SilverComet 170]

While that is true... his character actually devolves. Like he is really inconsistent. One episode he can be bold and independent but the next he can be the opposite...  I don't think I have to defend that point all too much in all honesty. No one in IRL or cartoon should change so sporadically over the time he has grown he has stumbled. Sooooo.....yeah... sorry too tired to defend my opinion. 

 

As for the Dragon Quest.... eh, I guess but he goes against codes and stuff for logic in Inspiration Manifestation.... sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo, I'm not sure how that'd really work? I just see ANOTHER plot hole with the connection

 

What about multiple but independent characterizations for each Spike involving a multiple personality mental disorder?

Edited June 22, 2015 by SilverComet

[Singe 2,111]

He didn't turn his back on being a dragon. The very next season there was an episode called Spike At Your Service where the entire story is based around him trying to be associated with dragons (via his incessant adherence to the dragon code)

 

He did. We see what normal dragons are in FIM and he turns his back on it to pursue his own ideal "dragon code" which is just being a pony pleaser.

Edited June 22, 2015 by Singe

[ManaMinori 4,145]

he's a character. A well-developed character, at that. And he showed growth, from his actions in this episode. Did people not notice how he showed self-sacrifice- a lesson that he begrudgingly had to go through, in "Secret of My Excess", and dumped all his gems out the bowl, in this episode, to help scoop up the water from the pipeline? Or that he didn't ask to eat the gem statue?

[Not Yellow Diamond 925]

he's a character. A well-developed character, at that. And he showed growth, from his actions in this episode. Did people not notice how he showed self-sacrifice- a lesson that he begrudgingly had to go through, in "Secret of My Excess", and dumped all his gems out the bowl, in this episode, to help scoop up the water from the pipeline? Or that he didn't ask to eat the gem statue?

 

Yes then In "Just for Sidekicks" he devolves again. And in the episode... Was that really SELF sacrifice? I don't see it as being so. He sacrificed for Rarity, it could be argued that he gave his ruby away for better interests, because he loved Rarity more than a jewel. Would that not be a fair argument?

 

In "Just For Sidekicks," "Friendship is Magic," and even "Secret of My Excess" and other episodes he is infatuated by Rarity. He loves Rarity more than any of his material possessions and so for me I don't view it as seld Sacrifice, i see it as pursuing better interests. 

 

An example outside of the show would be a writing project I was working on, As much as I enjoyed fanfiction, I quit for better interests. I would write MLP fanfiction if I didn't have better interests, See, my aspiration is to write for the TV show and one requirement is you can't read/write fanfiction, so I haven't read or wrote it because I feel as improbable as it might seem; I would rather write for the TV show than fanfiction. Hope that makes sense.

 

And, as far as you saying he is a well developed character, I have to disagree. 

 

To me there is a difference between growth and change... (Growth moces forawrd, change moves wherever it wants) his character is constantly changed, latered, fitted for whatever the plot needs him to be. In, "Boast Busters" and "A dog and pony show" it needed him to be both outspoken and levelheaded; the latter doesn't apply to "A dog and pony show" as much as the prior. But in those two episode he needed to play to role he did, likewise; only episodes later, he is shown to be a unreasonable, illogical, rash mess in "Owl's well that Ends well," or so I see it. The skills and applicable knowledge he possessed in the two early episode has then dissappeared. 

 

Let me continue you on; you had also mentioned that Spike has insecurity problems, that he does. But... let me quote something....

 

 

 

Yes, Insecurrity issues, those are all VERY real issues but how many times have you seen him overcome an issue only to become a victim of it in the very next episode. And this happens with EVERY one of his problems, it is poor continuity and inconsistency. Spike is treated very poorly throughout the series, only needed when he HAS to be or there is no one better to make fool out of... He is sort of like a lone queen on a chess board. Say if you were playing chess and the only piece on the board was a queen. Well you can move that queen every which way and nothing is gained, nothing is lost. All this moving but it is permissable because nothing consequential happened.   

 

 

Ok, well then why is he inconsistent? 

 

 

 

It's like beating a dead horse for every last breath, it is TIRING, it is POINTLESS, to watch it over and over again. Not only that but often times you see him taking a step forward, and then stepping back. There have been entire episode where he has been confident and felt like he mattered but then the VERY NEXT, he would step back. (Inspiration Manifestation, Equestria Games)    The connection I draw between those is in Inspiration Manifestation he knew he had to speak with Rarity and knew he would have to be honest with her and eventually built up the confidence to do so. The next episode later he feels he is worth nothing again... WHY?!?   If you are doing right, everyone is telling you that you are doing right, you have done no wrong and you are being supported, then why is that you keep devolving if everything is going right? 

 

 

Now these may not directly apply but there are some points that relate. 

 

Now as far as his devolving, I want to know about what you think about that.

Edited June 22, 2015 by louisvillepride

[Prince Firemane 309]

My problem with Spike's centered episodes are actually problems I have with the majority of slice-of-life episodes; the centered character always has to overcome some kind of trivial trait in order to be a better friend. The problem with this is that at this point in the game, these traits are constantly being recycled despite having been overcome four seasons ago. Yes, we know that Rainbow Dash is competitive. We know that Rarity is vain. We know that Pinkie Pie is crazy. We know that Twilight is neurotic. We know that Applejack is stubborn. We know that Fluttershy is a doormat. While season 5 seems to be moving away from this tired dynamic for the mane six, it apparently hasn't for poor Spike.

 

The thing that makes it the most jarring for Spike is that he is a plot device while the mane six are fully-fleshed characters. Spike keeps getting smacked with bad traits that seem to be an attempt to force us to remember that he's a dragon living amongst ponies. Dragons hoard; that's what they do; apparently that's a true genetic trait as Spike, never having been influenced by other dragons growing up, can't even get a fucking birthday present without going on a greed-binge and trying to take down Ponyville. Now it's getting to the point where the poor guy can't even have an original thought without taking it several steps too far.

 

But for all that, there are episodes where he can be shockingly mature. He tried to snap Twilight out of her neurotic insanity several times and when that didn't work, he took action and went directly to Princess Celestia, perhaps the only one that can help at that point. But the problem with that is that is still example of Spike being a plot device as Twilight was the crazy one, the plot needed Spike to be the sane one, to show that Twilight was so far gone so soon that she can twist anything the person who knows her best says into a way to feed her insane delirium.

 

Then of course he was randomly given a crippling level of insecurity and stage fright in what I believe to be a blatant trait-tacking in order to make him more relateable to the target demographic. That right there leads me to perhaps the largest conflict I've had with the series. The Equestria Games had, in my opinion, one of the best lessons of the series: all the praise and forgiveness in the world doesn't mean a damn thing if you don't forgive yourself. However, I think it was executed very poorly because it seemed the writers were so intent on shoehorning in a Spike story that they didn't treat him or the titular Games with the respect that they deserved.

 

But now, in season 5, it just seems that whenever Spike isn't supposed to be the flanderized plot device, he's just meant to be the show's reigning butt-monkey.

[CastletonSnob 3,074]

Can anyone name moments where Spike showed character development? I want specifics.

[Cwanky 17,575]

Most definitely Spike's a character, albeit a supporting one, but still highly important to the show all the same. Because the show in its format though tends to focus more heavily on the Mane 6, characters like Spike and the CMCs at times fail to get the development and attention they need. Consequently poor and clumsy writing, even with the best intentions, hurts Spike a lot more than you might think, considering he lacks the same level of attention the Mane 6 get.

 

I like to think of Spike as a neglected character, relegated and misused as a supporting character. Think of Rainbow Dash, Rarity and yes even Twilight (and still to this day). Without the development these characters got they would look rather shallow, bland and 1 dimensional, outside of their most devoted fans. This could actually be said for all the Mane 6 actually, although it varies from character. Without development, we would only see Rainbow as a hotshot tomboy, Rarity as some pretty rich snob, and Twilight as not just a bookworm but a stereotypical heroine fixated on "saving the day."

 

That's where Spike is right now. Because of the limited scope of his character, we largely view him as an immature, young dragon, prone to greed and selfish tendencies. Its not Spike's fault. Its simply what has been seen of him. I do believe the writers have good intentions with Spike, showing his virtue in spite of all his flaws and youth, but its muddled in poor execution and bad writing. Part of it is him being treated as a doormat and running gag. But a lot of it also is a lack of respect, depth and understanding of who Spike really is.

[CastletonSnob 3,074]

Has Spike shown any character development?

[bumperappledash 8]

Honestly I feel like most Spike episodes are a let down, and I really do like him as a character, but overall with an episode it just does not work.

 

The Applejack one with him was okay, kind of good (only saying that because AJ is my favorite, lol) and I think Spike shares some really sweet moments with Twilight and by far I think he was at his best in the super hero episode, very relatable to kids who are an understatement amongst others, but truly are something special.

[ManaMinori 4,145]

You know what? I'm just going to leave this here, and STRONGLY advise that people who have beef with this episode and Spike's character watch it. Because many good points are addressed in it, and definitions given to the words many of you seem to be misusing for the sake hate or whatever.

 

https://youtu.be/KeQUT8asatw

[Limeblossom 482]

I found "Appleoosa" easier to swallow because Troubleshoes was, at the very least, a sympathetic character.

For me it wasn't easy to swallow.

 

Over time, the writers have been stripping away at whatever endearing and positive traits Spike had left. To be honest, in watching "Princess Spike", I really began to wonder if Spike was contributing anything to the show anymore and if it would have been more merciful to reduce his role in the show to something more like a background character.

Can't be denied. He really has become a background character and I think we have to accept that, unfortunately.

 

I wouldn't call it a problem of "sanity". It's more that these writers, some of the most talented to have ever worked in television animation, are not being fair to their characters. When people identify so much with these characters, they're being unfair to their audience by doing this. It's just an inexcusable and willful lack of effort on the part of a character so many of us identify with that's annoying and appalling. And, as you surely understand, putting a character down just for being who and what he is does go against the meaning of the show.

Ok, I admit I didn't use the right word, let's call it bias. And the unfainess to their audience you pointed out did a thing. The episode became the worst watched of all.

 

It's all in being fair. It's just shocking when the fans can convincingly do a better job at that in story than the people paid to write the darn thing.

True. And it shows that the fandom still cares about Spike .

Edited June 29, 2015 by Limeblossom

[Dolphanatic 298]

You raise an interesting point. I hadn't given it much thought until now but you're right.

 

Even his role as assistant to Twilight has diminished to the point of virtually non-existent. I don't think he's taken a letter in Season 5 (I haven't seen episode 101 yet) and although he was prominent in 5.3, it was to serve the plot and keep Twilight out of the castle while the rest of the Mane 6 decorate.

 

I really hope they do more with him in the future, but I'm not going to hold my breath.

True, but the show kinda grew out of the whole writing letters thing after season 4. Either way, outside of Season 1, Spike has had little to no substantial character development at all, aside from two episodes (Secret of My Excess and Inspiration Manifestation).

 

You're right, but I think the whole case about Spike began during season 4. During the current season he had so little screentime that he was considered a background character (even Twilight didn't bring him to the Gala while the rest brought others with them). And the new Spike episode didn't improve him.

 

It's not the first time some of us lost faith in the show. Look at Appleoosa's most wanted. The episode and Trouble Shoes in general destroyed the whole meaning around special talents and cutie marks, giving Starlight Glimmer new ammunition for her "cutie marks are bad" philosophy. And I won't see some characters in the same light as before again.

 

We should really question the writers and producers' sanity when it comes to character writings and the show's message.

Well, to be fair, Magical Mystery cure already destroyed the whole meaning around special talents and cutie marks back in 2013. :okiedokielokie: I lost a lot of faith in the show after Magical Mystery Cure, which, in my opinion, has done way more damage to the show than Appleoosa's Most Wanted could ever dream of doing. That being said, it certainly doesn't help that episodes like Appleoosa's Most Wanted continue to rub salt into the wound.

Edited August 31, 2015 by Dolphanatic