Twilight's 'test' in the Crystal Empire

[Stasis 39]

I keep having thoughts about the episode the Crystal Empire and where it screwed up at but the more I keep thinking about it the more this test starts to sound ridiculously immoral and stupid. I don't know but everytime I see discussion about this episode it's usually how Sombra was the worst thing about it but this test plot point the more I think about it the more I realize how completely botched this test angle is. I don't know but am I the only one who feels this way?

[Kronos the Revenant 1,971]

Now that you mention it like that, I do kind of understand what you're talking about. Seriously, what exactly was Twilight even tested on. If it was whenter or not she could fight an ancient evil, then she failed becasue Princess Celestia stressed how it has to be Twilight alone who does the deed and it ends up being Spike who does it. Honestly, I agree with you.

[green 331]

I keep having thoughts about the episode the Crystal Empire and where it screwed up at but the more I keep thinking about it the more this test starts to sound ridiculously immoral and stupid. I don't know but everytime I see discussion about this episode it's usually how Sombra was the worst thing about it but this test plot point the more I think about it the more I realize how completely botched this test angle is. I don't know but am I the only one who feels this way?

No, I feel the same way. Twilight cared more about the test than the Crystal ponies. And Celestia cared more about Twilight getting one step closer to becoming an alicorn. So yeah, it's wrong.

[Raven Rawne 1,381]

When I saw the episode I thought that Twilight failed the test and Celestia was covering it up by channelling the narrative in a new direction - how she learned to delegate inportant tasks to others. The whole "biggest thest in you entire life forrrrever!" seemed very much un-Celestia to me. Not to mention she demanded that Twilight didn't recieve any help.

 

And Sombra was OK. It takes some thought to appreciate the full scope of his scheme - I made a post about it in a relevant thread. 

[Kyoshi Frost Wolf 41,544]

I think the test was, would she go against what her mentor told her to do for the sake of saving the day? That being, she was not the one who saved the Crystal Empire like she thought that she should, Spike did, so she technically did not pass the test that she thought she was supposed to do. Granted, I thought that her extreme concern at the end was a bit...odd. Why would Celestia be mean-spirited enough to say "Oh, the Crystal Empire is saved, all is good and well, but...sorry, you did not save it specifically, so....you fail!" That part was strange. At that point, Twilight should not have worried about this 'test' at all anyways because the Crystal Empire was saved regardless. That is where I see a strange aspect to the episode.

[Number62 1,258]

Also weird is that Twilight was told to do this alone, which is stupid because this whole show started with her making friends.

Edited October 23, 2015 by Number107

[duidamasterXD 9,627]

Using an insane, evil dictator as a test for your anxious young student when the villain could easily be barbecued by the elements of harmony is a bit... morally sketchy. At best. Surely there was a better way to assess Twilight, or at least one that wouldn't result in hundreds of innocent people getting hurt if she screwed up.

 

You're not alone in feeling that episode was wonky. I felt the story hinged on me accepting that Twilight is just terribly afraid of disappointing Celestia, and that her relying on somebody else in spite of this is an act of incredible maturity. But it wasn't Twilight's choice . Spike dragged himself along for the ride against Twily's will, and she only relied on him when there was no other option. If anybody deserves a pat on the back, it's him. And it's not like Twilight even learned her lesson at that point. The moment Celestia was like "u must do this by yourself again because reasons" in Twilight's Kingdom, she still listened and tried to do everything solo for most of the episode.

[UnknownFry 169]

I don't think you are the only who thinks that way, but I don't Twilight understood the gravity of the situation until late in the episode.

 

I think Celestia was more interested in seeing Twilight's decision making in the process, and by that Twilight could

have saved the Crystal Empire but still failed the test in the process depending on her actions. Celestia intentionally left the test vague for a reason to get a better a gauge on her student would react to the situation. She also did not specifically state the terms of passing the test either. So yes she was playing mind games with Twilight, but she took the risk anyways as she was confident in her student to do the right thing.

 

Celestia was right in the end as Twilight's decision to send Spike down with the Crystal Heart instead of herself was the difference between victory and defeat. Twilight did as such thinking it was going to jeopardize her chances of passing the test. It was this kind of maturity that Celestia was looking from her student that is a willingness to lay aside her own self-interest for the greater good.

 

Celestia also never told Twilight to do it alone, but she did say in the end it would ultimately be up to her to do whatever it takes to save the empire alongside Cadence and Shining Armor.

 

Twilight just took her instructions too literally and almost messed everything up but things came into a clear picture once she realized the test of personally retrieving the Crystal Heart was meaningless compared to everything else. 

 

Twilight was also kind of following orders in Twilight's Kingdom, but she learned her lesson well when she made that key decision even if it ran against what everyone else was saying. Risky choice though.

 

 But it wasn't Twilight's choice

 

The decision to send Spike down with the Crystal Heart down was her choice, and Spike even initially objected to it.  Spike might have tried to force his way to tag along but Twilight eventually acquiesced and it turned out to be a good decision. So those are two sound choices Twilight made. 

Edited October 23, 2015 by UnknownFry

[Manman20x6 359]

stuff

 

The problem is not that Celestia did not properly explain the test to Twilight, it's that she used such a high-stakes situation as a test in the first place. If you're testing someone, you accept that there is a chance they might fail. If Twilight failed the test, thousands of crystal ponies would have died or been enslaved.

 

Celestia was ready to gamble with all of these innocent lives just to see if Twilight is a good leader.

[J. Brony 313]

Also weird is that Twilight was told to do this alone, which is stupid because this whole show started with her making friends.

 

Indeed, this made no sense whatsoever and contradicted Celestia's original edict that Twilight learn the values of friendship.  If she were still observing this command, Twilight wouldn't have had any issues with relying on her friends in retrieving the Crystal Heart.  

 

Celestia was right in the end as Twilight's decision to send Spike down with the Crystal Heart instead of herself was the difference between victory and defeat. Twilight did as such thinking it was going to jeopardize her chances of passing the test. It was this kind of maturity that Celestia was looking from her student that is a willingness to lay aside her own self-interest for the greater good.

 

What I don't understand is how Celestia knew that Twilight would be put in this sort of situation?  There's no way that the events of the episode could have been a test.  And there's no way that Celestia could have predicted anything that happened or what kind of situation Twilight would have faced either.

 

Therefore, I don't think that Celestia's "test" was what Twilight or any of us believe it to have been.  I think Celestia wanted to see if Twilight would choose to go things alone for the sake of earning her approval or remain true to what she had learned and cooperate with her friends to accomplish their goal.

 

If that is the case, Twilight technically passed since she chose to accept Spike's help rather than risk failure in trying to solve her problem alone.

Edited October 23, 2015 by J. Brony

[Number62 1,258]

Celestia also never told Twilight to do it alone, but she did say in the end it would ultimately be up to her to do whatever it takes to save the empire alongside Cadence and Shining Armor.

 

Twilight just took her instructions too literally and almost messed everything up but things came into a clear picture once she realized the test of personally retrieving the Crystal Heart was meaningless compared to everything else. 

 

Twilight was also kind of following orders in Twilight's Kingdom, but she learned her lesson well when she made that key decision even if it ran against what everyone else was saying. Risky choice though.

 

 But it wasn't Twilight's choice

 

The decision to send Spike down with the Crystal Heart down was her choice, and Spike even initially objected to it.  Spike might have tried to force his way to tag along but Twilight eventually acquiesced and it turned out to be a good decision. So those are two sound choices Twilight made. 

I looked at the transcript of the episode, and you're right that Celestia didn't necessarily say that Twilight had to do it by herself, but Celestia's lines seemed to imply that.

 

It would've worked better if Celestia didn't say that at all, and thus Twilight would only think she had to do it alone. At the end of the story, Twilight was disappointed that she didn't save the Crystal Empire and pass her test. Shouldn't she be glad that an entire empire was saved? Who gives a crap about some lousy test after that? Sure she can remark that she didn't seem to pass, but the disappointment makes no sense. Then again, she's always the one saving everypony, so I suppose she'd feel down about not being the hero again.

The problem is not that Celestia did not properly explain the test to Twilight, it's that she used such a high-stakes situation as a test in the first place. If you're testing someone, you accept that there is a chance they might fail. If Twilight failed the test, thousands of crystal ponies would have died or been enslaved.

 

Celestia was ready to gamble with all of these innocent lives just to see if Twilight is a good leader.

This would be another problem the episode would need to look at. I hope that Celestia had a backup plan if Twilight failed, even if the chance of failure was seemingly nonexistent.

Edited October 23, 2015 by Number107

[UnknownFry 169]

Twilight was relieved the Empire was saved, but at the same time she was still concerned about her test as the episode played that angle up throughout the entire episodes. I see nothing wrong with having mixed feelings from her perspective on the matter as she seemingly threw away her chance at passing test doubting that she would get another shot at it with her future in doubt.

 

Twilight would have liked it if she was the one to deliver the Crystal Heart as that is what she decided what the criteria for passing the test was.

 

I assume Celestia had a back up just in case things went south though which is why she was okay with taking the gamble. A bit of risk but Twilight would likely have been one of her top options regardless of the test.

 

What I don't understand is how Celestia knew that Twilight would be put in this sort of situation?  

 

She might not have known at all but she tends to act on hunches which makes her a bit of a gambler, but she left the terms rather vague.  However Celestia would be aware of how Twilight tends to act when it comes to these tests and that is not the type of behavior she wanted to see out of Twilight in regards to future plans for her in advancing her studies.

 

Therefore, I don't think that Celestia's "test" was what Twilight or any of us believe it to have been

 

Fair enough, but whatever the test was Celestia was pleased with Twilight's performance and decision from the way she heard of if it. 

Edited October 24, 2015 by UnknownFry

[Unlikeable Pony 2,698]

I keep having thoughts about the episode the Crystal Empire and where it screwed up at but the more I keep thinking about it the more this test starts to sound ridiculously immoral and stupid. I don't know but everytime I see discussion about this episode it's usually how Sombra was the worst thing about it but this test plot point the more I think about it the more I realize how completely botched this test angle is. I don't know but am I the only one who feels this way?

 

You're not alone OP. The crystal empire's plot is one of the most criticized ones of the show, at least at the sites that I've seen.

Celestia putting the well being of her student above that of the innocent is one of the most insanely irresponsible things ever done in the show, feels out of character, and is incredibly transparent in that its just there as an excuse to give twilight a lesson.

 

Its not very well done. and If you hold the comics to be canon, the idea that Sombra is powerful enough to beat BOTH celestia and luna makes this even more infuriating due to how utterly dangerous of a threat sombra was. In show, you could assume that the two sisters could easily beat him again. but the comics have framed him as somehow being this uber powerful force that just steam rolls anything in his path short of the crystal heart.

[Number62 1,258]

You're not alone OP. The crystal empire's plot is one of the most criticized ones of the show, at least at the sites that I've seen.

Celestia putting the well being of her student above that of the innocent is one of the most insanely irresponsible things ever done in the show, feels out of character, and is incredibly transparent in that its just there as an excuse to give twilight a lesson.

 

Its not very well done. and If you hold the comics to be canon, the idea that Sombra is powerful enough to beat BOTH celestia and luna makes this even more infuriating due to how utterly dangerous of a threat sombra was. In show, you could assume that the two sisters could easily beat him again. but the comics have framed him as somehow being this uber powerful force that just steam rolls anything in his path short of the crystal heart.

I've been very behind with the comics, so which issue is Sombra's power stated in?

 

Also, if Celestia really does have some amount of clairvoyance, using that power as an excuse to do nothing or something (potentially) dangerous and stupid is still poor storytelling.

 

I don't believe any kind of producer, writer, etc. purposefully tells poor stories at least most of the time (what would they gain from it?), but at times like those, I really have to wonder what they were thinking.

[dekutree64 713]

It's all so vague, the whole episode can pretty much be spun any way you like.

 

My interpretation is that it was a test of character first, and a test of power second. Twilight could win alone, win with friends, lose alone, or lose with friends. Losing alone would probably be the only way to fail the test, and winning with friends gets the highest score (because of the self sacrifice aspect mentioned in the episode, as well as proving leadership skills befitting a princess).

 

Another possibility is that the entire test thing was just a distraction to keep Twilight from getting freaked out about being put in charge of a national crisis. She'd be so busy worrying about disappointing Celestia, the real threat would seem like nothing at all

 

Or it was because Celestia knows how much Twilight likes school and that she'd feel more proud of herself for passing a test than she would for saving an empire, and Celestia wanted her to feel proud of herself because it would help her accept her role as princess later.

 

Or how about considering it in context of the previous episode, Canterlot Wedding? There, Celestia didn't trust Twilight's instincts, and made things a lot worse as a result. So this was actually Celestia teaching herself a lesson, proving that Twilight is absolutely trustworthy and will do the right thing even if ordered to do something stupid.

 

I'm sure you could interpret it in just as many anti-Celestia ways.

[Unlikeable Pony 2,698]

I've been very behind with the comics, so which issue is Sombra's power stated in?

 

Also, if Celestia really does have some amount of clairvoyance, using that power as an excuse to do nothing or something (potentially) dangerous and stupid is still poor storytelling.

 

I don't believe any kind of producer, writer, etc. purposefully tells poor stories at least most of the time (what would they gain from it?), but at times like those, I really have to wonder what they were thinking.

Most recent one.

 

 

Sombra confronts celestia, says "HAHA! you beat me before, but I'm way way stronger now for reasons!" and then turns both Celestia and luna into stone in a second without it even being a fight. He literally says "you lose" and the next panel is them as stone.

 

 

 

[Wind Chaser 4,768]

It comes off as a completely unnecessary and forced plot device to me as it does to a good majority of reviewers in this fandom. You could very easily have still delivered a self-sacrifice moral without such an artificial and questionable tension builder.

 

The episode already had multiple layers of tension. King Sombra was a looming threat and a very strategic villain who had boobytrapped the castle to hide the Crystal Heart. Shining Armor was already defeated and Princess Cadance was being worn to her core by this. Yet, Princess Celestia decides that against a backdrop of an entire country under threat, testing Twilight's personal principles was a priority. That's like sending a rookie Navy SEAL who hasn't finished training out to command the team that's trying to get bin Laden, and calling that his training mission.

 

The second part of the episode was very entertaining, and the self-sacrifice moral was great for the show, but the reliance on an unnecessary plot device when there are already many better ones in the episode unfortunately cheapens it. To the episode, it doesn't matter that Twilight put herself on the line for others, what matters is that she put her pride and reputation on the line. The episode barely had a sense of what was important. If it wasn't for that, the episode would not only have been more passable, but also would have had a more active role for the rest of the Mane 6 other than being mere distractions.

[BlinkZ 1,151]

Now that you mention it like that, I do kind of understand what you're talking about. Seriously, what exactly was Twilight even tested on. If it was whenter or not she could fight an ancient evil, then she failed becasue Princess Celestia stressed how it has to be Twilight alone who does the deed and it ends up being Spike who does it. Honestly, I agree with you.

WEll celestia has preminitions so knew Twlight would win in the end. Or at least according to that scene from the season 4 finale.

 

Celestia has a gambling problem lolz

[duidamasterXD 9,627]

I don't Twilight understood the gravity of the situation until late in the episode.

 

I think she did, mostly. She'd seen her powerful big brother get smoked by Sombra, she knew Cadance had been staying up for several nights in order to keep him out, she knew that all the crystal people were super traumatized even from the memory of him. She's a smart girl and knew the situation was grave, but chose to prioritize the test instead until the very last second.

 

The decision to send Spike down with the Crystal Heart down was her choice, and Spike even initially objected to it. Spike might have tried to force his way to tag along but Twilight eventually acquiesced and it turned out to be a good decision. So those are two sound choices Twilight made.

 

She only really acquiesced after he'd already saved her from the nightmare door thing. Up until that point, she was making him stay at the top of the stairs. He intervened in defiance of Twilight's orders, and would've been there to help her sooner if not for them.

 

The point I was trying to make was that her decision to rely on Spike had no impact for me because there was absolutely nothing else she could've done in that position if she wanted to save the city. I can give Twilight very minor props for realizing that there wasn't time to escape the trap, but I still don't come away from the episode feeling particularly proud of her, or at least not as proud as the episode implies I should be. I'm pretty sure every other one of the Mane Six would've made the same call.

 

I believe I understand what the episode was going for, but it didn't work for me.

[Dark Qiviut 22,426]

You're not alone at all. I'm the loudest critic of this episode for the very same reason. The "test" is one of the most immoral plot devices of the entire show. Seriously, you have a tyrant lying in wait, and Celestia elects to put the fate of thousands of lives at stake to see if Twilight can lead? Furthermore, why the hell does the narrative consider the test to be more important than the citizens' lives? It's my most hated episode by a long shot.

[UnknownFry 169]

I believe I understand what the episode was going for, but it didn't work for me.

 

Fair enough.

 

Frankly it does not bother me all that much as I am rather detached from the show, but there are valid points to be made for the nature of the test.

[Sapana 66]

i agree with one of the posters on the previous page, that the Twilight's lesson would have had more of an impact if Celestia had said nothing at all about Twilight needing to do this on her own. That way Twilight's change of mind would be more genuine and show her truer character, and she would truly have learned something, instead of just being disappointed about failing to follow exact instructions. 

 

Side note, I also don't really see why everyone in-universe hails Spike as much as they do. Spike did nothing but deliver the Heart - he never could have found it on his own, not without Twilight's cleverness and magic. Again, I think the lesson loses something in that Spike did not do anything special that anyone else couldn't have done.

[Truffles 2,033]

 

 

Side note, I also don't really see why everyone in-universe hails Spike as much as they do. Spike did nothing but deliver the Heart - he never could have found it on his own, not without Twilight's cleverness and magic. Again, I think the lesson loses something in that Spike did not do anything special that anyone else couldn't have done.

 

 

The thing is, history is full of heroes that are simply those who were in the right place at the right time. Spike willingly risked life and limb to climb down the black crystals forming around the palace to get the Crystal Heart to where it needed to be. He could have acted like a coward and hemmed and hawed up there with Twilight until it was too late, but he didn't.

 

Furthermore, after he slipped and fell, he had no clue what Shining Armor was planning with Cadence, and he tried to reacquire the Heart mid-air even though he knew he was about to die, presumably thinking his body might break the fall enough to save the Heart from being smashed to pieces when he hit the ground.

[Rawzy 1,302]

Well...I would rather take this test than taking some old crappy maths exam in a stale room....just sayin

[Stasis 39]

Actually when I think about it I think the biggest problem with this test is Celestia herself. The way she had to teach this test was completely self serving and backwards.

 

The episode is basically saying Twilight learns a lesson about self sacrifice by giving herself something that makes her egotiscal and self serving in the first place.

 

Not only that but the fact that Celestia is delivering this moral makes it come off a hollow and superfluous due to the conditions she had to set up for Twilight.

 

I'm also not a big fan that Twilight due to her over reliance of this test was the only reason that place was even in danger in the first place.

Edited October 26, 2015 by Stasis