Alicorn Magic and Chaotic Magic

[JH24 385]

After rewatching the season 4 finale I was wondering about something.

 

When Tirek absorbed the magic of the Alicorn princesses, he grew a huge amount in size, much more than he did after absorbing Discord's powers.

 

I got the impression this means Alicorn Magic in itself is far more powerful than Chaotic Magic. Yet Celestia stated that with Discord protecting Tirek they wouldn't be able to stop him.

 

Discord's Chaotic Magic has the ability to alter and manipulate everything its directed at, possibly including all other forms of magic besides Harmony.

 

 

What I'm wondering is, how far does Discord's Chaos magic reach? Does it render him completely immune even against Alicorn Magic? Does it allow him to negate all forms of Magic not based on Harmony? And without the Elements of Harmony, could Discord take over Equestria at any moment if he wanted to? Or would all the unicorn and alicorn magic still have a chance to stop him?

 

How do you interpret Alicorn and Chaos Magic and how they work in Equestria? I'm curious how other people look at these types of magic.

Edited October 28, 2015 by JH24

[Kyoshi Frost Wolf 42,202]

I don't think Discord is immune to Alicorn magic, more like he is at an equal with it. Chaos is the direct opposite of Harmony, and I feel like these things are at equal footing in power. As we can see, Harmony is incredibly powerful, the Elements of Harmony are basically friendship nuke machines. I think what gives each side more power is number, quantity. The amount of characters in the world of FiM that embrace Harmony is faaaaaaaaar greater than those that embrace chaos, which in turn makes Harmony much stronger in the end. Granted this doesn't explain why Discord was able to wreck shop when he first premiered maybe that could be because many parts of Equestria were in disarray already? 

 

Kyoshi theories are not very good ones. XD

[PROJECT: Simon 3,955]

I mean.. he gained all 3 alicorn's magic so.. each will be.. '~'

[Jinxie Umbra 149]

I think you're confusing potency and quantity here. Tirek gained more from the Alicorns than from Discord because it was four at once. 'Tis also reasonable to assume that while the royal sisters each have a significant pool of magic to draw from (being fuelled by their respective celestial bodies - see Journal of the Two Sisters) that does not necessarily mean that their magic is more powerful than Discord's.

[Parapraxis 3]

I somewhat agree that chaos magic may very well be stronger, but keep in mind he did absorb 4 supplies of alicorn magic. I would say that 4 alicorns are stronger than one Discord.

[Once In A Blue Moon 896]

I'm not sure about the answers to the earlier questions, but I do have some views on:

 

 

 

How do you interpret Alicorn and Chaos Magic and how they work in Equestria? I'm curious how other people look at these types of magic.

 

I view alicorn (and unicorn) magic as directly altering the world through brute force - the most powerful alicorn (Celestia... I think) lifts the sun, whilst a weak unicorn might struggle to lift a pencil. In contrast, chaos magic changes things - it bends reality, rather than breaks it. For example, when we saw discord sitting on his throne drinking a glass of chocolate milk, he did exactly that - he drank the glass of chocolate milk. He drank the glass. Likewise where a house stood in the background, a house still stands - a house of cards rather than of stone, brick or wood, but it is a house. My logic for when he made the mane 6 'grey' he converted them to the opposite of what they were - so honesty became 'honesty' and so on. When this was confronted by reality-changing magic that reminded them of who they actually were, his magic failed because it could not bend reality that far. In short, alicorn (and unicorn) magic 'breaks' reality whilst chaos magic bends it.

 

At least, that's my view. The truth is probably that the writers aren't entirely consistent, so nothing is going to fit perfectly.

Edited October 29, 2015 by Once In A Blue Moon

[I used to be a stranger 7,994]

My theory is that magic is a fifth fundamental force, after gravity, electromagnetism, and the strong and weak nuclear. Magic exists in several immaterial ways, one of which is chaotic. Chaotic magic is generally not as abundant in the universe as other forms.

[Chronamut 355]

chaos magic becomes more powerful the more of harmony it "chaoticizes". It feeds off of lack of order.

 

Hence why dischord sought to turn all the mane 6 against each other.

Edited October 29, 2015 by Chronamut

[ManaMinori 4,149]

I don't think Discord is immune to Alicorn magic, more like he is at an equal with it. Chaos is the direct opposite of Harmony, and I feel like these things are at equal footing in power. As we can see, Harmony is incredibly powerful, the Elements of Harmony are basically friendship nuke machines. I think what gives each side more power is number, quantity. The amount of characters in the world of FiM that embrace Harmony is faaaaaaaaar greater than those that embrace chaos, which in turn makes Harmony much stronger in the end. Granted this doesn't explain why Discord was able to wreck shop when he first premiered maybe that could be because many parts of Equestria were in disarray already? 

 

Kyoshi theories are not very good ones. XD

pssst, Kyo. Alicorn magic isn't harmony. Else, why would they even need the physical elements of harmony, if their inherent alicorn magic could rainbow everything? Once the elements stopped working for Sunbutt after she blasted NMM, she could've used her natural magic, if all alicorn mahc equaled harmony. But she didn't, cuz it's not

Just Sayain'

[Chronamut 355]

that brings up an interesting question - can there be dark alicorns?

[Kyoshi Frost Wolf 42,202]

pssst, Kyo. Alicorn magic isn't harmony. Else, why would they even need the physical elements of harmony, if their inherent alicorn magic could rainbow everything? Once the elements stopped working for Sunbutt after she blasted NMM, she could've used her natural magic, if all alicorn mahc equaled harmony. But she didn't, cuz it's not

Just Sayain'

Well, the thing is, I don't really care. I said that Alicorn magic is part of Harmony, that seems to be the magic that most ponies use. I never said that Alicorn magic = Harmony itself, it part of that. 

 

Again, I don't exactly care. Neither of us really know what the dealio is, this thread is just us throwing things around, nothing more. It doesn't have any impact on the show and knowing the odds all of us are wrong anyways. 

 

Just say'n.

[Sidral Mundet 1,666]

Well chaos magic is of a different caliber of magic all together, so maybe while Tirek could manipulate it, he couldn't get full access to it, that he was incompatible with it and so couldn't get it's full power. 

Edited October 29, 2015 by Sidral Mundet

[JH24 385]

Wow, I didn't expect so many reactions. First of all, thank you everyone for replying.

 

I don't think Discord is immune to Alicorn magic, more like he is at an equal with it. Chaos is the direct opposite of Harmony, and I feel like these things are at equal footing in power. As we can see, Harmony is incredibly powerful, the Elements of Harmony are basically friendship nuke machines. I think what gives each side more power is number, quantity. The amount of characters in the world of FiM that embrace Harmony is faaaaaaaaar greater than those that embrace chaos, which in turn makes Harmony much stronger in the end. Granted this doesn't explain why Discord was able to wreck shop when he first premiered maybe that could be because many parts of Equestria were in disarray already? 

 

Kyoshi theories are not very good ones. XD

 

Hey, no worries. I like how you've explained your theory in detail and you do make some good points. Thank you. Alicorn Magic isn't Harmony as far as I know, but you're entirely right that Harmony in itself is much more common in Equestria. (Living in Harmony seems also like the best defense against Discord and chaos. It seems they're already teaching fillies this very early at school)

 

Which supports your point that Equestria may not have been such an organized or harmonious nation at the time Discord took over. The pilosophy of Harmony might have been implemented by Celestia and Luna after the defeat of Discord to prevent something like this happening again. And they may have believed that living in Harmony/unity was the best way forward for all the ponies.

 

But even with this pilosophy, Discord was still able to transform Ponyville and its surroundings into his realm. In the end, it probably does mean only The Elements of Harmony can really stop him, but living in Harmony does make the Elements stronger.

 

I mean.. he gained all 3 alicorn's magic so.. each will be.. '~'

 

You're right, I should have mentioned that. However, even if you would divide the Alicorn magic with each princess it still seems Tirek would grow more than he did with Discord's Magic. Another member in this thread had a theory that affinity and talent may play a role in unlocking the potential of Discord's Magic. Something Tirek did not have and because of that didn't benefit much from Chaos Magic.

 

It's possible Tirek already knew that but only took DIscord's Magic to eliminate a potential threat in the future. If Chaos Magic is immune or resistant to other forms of Magic than even Tirek with Alicorn Magic might not have been able to stand against Discord.

 

I think you're confusing potency and quantity here. Tirek gained more from the Alicorns than from Discord because it was four at once. 'Tis also reasonable to assume that while the royal sisters each have a significant pool of magic to draw from (being fuelled by their respective celestial bodies - see Journal of the Two Sisters) that does not necessarily mean that their magic is more powerful than Discord's.

 

True, but even if you divide the amount of absorbed magic by four, it still seemed Tirek would have grown more than he did with Discord. But I'm just speculating here. 

 

You make a good point about the strength of Alicorn Magic. Personally I do feel that in raw power output, Alicorn Magic far surpasses Chaotic Magic. Just look for example at the battle between Twilight and Tirek. Chaotic Magic has never been that flashy. But then again, Chaotic Magic likely doesn't work that way.

 

Alicorn and conventional Magic is probably more direct in its use, while Chaos Magic is more indirect. Instead of damaging or overpowering an opponent, it simply alters or manipulates its target and/or the surroundings. 

 

Alicorn Magic, no matter how strong, likely won't do much if you're not given the chance to use it properly. Which may explain why Celestia, when she said "we" can't stop him (including Luna and Cadence and possibly Twilight), felt that they would have little chance in opposing Discord. Especially if Discord can avoid or negate/alter even their strongest offensive spells.

 

I somewhat agree that chaos magic may very well be stronger, but keep in mind he did absorb 4 supplies of alicorn magic. I would say that 4 alicorns are stronger than one Discord.

 

Yeah, I should have mentioned that about the magic of four alicorns. I do feel as well four Alicorns are, power-wise, considerably stronger than Discord. But with Discord's ability to alter and manipulate everything around him, or even ponies themselves (like Discord's "pin the tail on Celestia" thousand years ago) then it's possible even the strongest Alicorn Magic might not even reach him, or at least he has a resistance to it. Which is probably the reason Celestia and Luna had to resort to the Elements of Harmony.

 

 

I'm not sure about the answers to the earlier questions, but I do have some views on:

 

 

 

 

I view alicorn (and unicorn) magic as directly altering the world through brute force - the most powerful alicorn (Celestia... I think) lifts the sun, whilst a weak unicorn might struggle to lift a pencil. In contrast, chaos magic changes things - it bends reality, rather than breaks it. For example, when we saw discord sitting on his throne drinking a glass of chocolate milk, he did exactly that - he drank the glass of chocolate milk. He drank the glass. Likewise where a house stood in the background, a house still stands - a house of cards rather than of stone, brick or wood, but it is a house. My logic for when he made the mane 6 'grey' he converted them to the opposite of what they were - so honesty became 'honesty' and so on. When this was confronted by reality-changing magic that reminded them of who they actually were, his magic failed because it could not bend reality that far. In short, alicorn (and unicorn) magic 'breaks' reality whilst chaos magic bends it.

 

At least, that's my view. The truth is probably that the writers aren't entirely consistent, so nothing is going to fit perfectly.

 

That's a great perspective and theory. I felt the same way but I would never be able to put it into words so well as you just did. Thank you for that. You've pointed out the limits for both Harmony and Chaos, with them in a way being a different side of the same coin.

 

I think that's why Discord also had a level of overconfidence, his Chaos magic' ability to bend down reality likely grants him with a level of immunity/resistance to all forms of magic except for Harmony. He never considered being defeated by Celestia and Luna, and the second time around, he never expected the Mane 6 being able to beat his Chaos Magic. In this case, Harmony (friendship, a strong bond/connection) breaking down the reality Discord had bended with his Chaos Magic.

 

I think he finally lost his overconfidence after what happened with Tirek. That he finally understood why friendship/Harmony is so powerful and that he's not as invulnerable as he once thought himself to be.

 

My theory is that magic is a fifth fundamental force, after gravity, electromagnetism, and the strong and weak nuclear. Magic exists in several immaterial ways, one of which is chaotic. Chaotic magic is generally not as abundant in the universe as other forms.

 

Very nice theory. Magic being an essence (if I understood correctly), a force that's all around us and can be tapped into.

 

chaos magic becomes more powerful the more of harmony it "chaoticizes". It feeds off of lack of order.

 

Hence why dischord sought to turn all the mane 6 against each other.

 

 

Yeah, very good point, Chaotic Magic being the opposite of Harmony, it certainly makes sense it would grow stronger at the cost of Harmony itself. Ideally, they're at a balance. Harmony seeking balance because it fits exactly with what Harmony stands for, while Chaos (until Discord's reform) is seeking ways to change the status quo because it's part of its nature.

 

that brings up an interesting question - can there be dark alicorns?

 

Definitely an interesting point. Personally I don't see why not. When Luna transformed into Nightmare Moon, she didn't lose her powers (if I remember correctly) although her powers did change to bring it in line with her new character and personality. I don't think Alicorn Magic particularly cares about the alignment of its wielder, it simply transforms to accomodate the changes of its host. (Just speculating here)

 

Well chaos magic is of a different caliber of magic all together, so maybe while Tirek could manipulate it, he couldn't get full access to it, that he was incompatible with it and so couldn't get it's full power. 

 

Very good point. It's possible that Discord, being an avatar or personification of the Chaos Element, has an innate affinity and talent to use the full potential and power of Chaos Magic. It doesn't seem like it takes him any effort using it, it's almost like it comes natural to him. He thinks about something, and it will happen. Tirek, as you said, had no full access to it because Chaos magic is so vastly different from all other forms of Magic. So the growth he underwent was limited because the absorbed magic is judged by its potential. He probably could use a basic form of Chaos Magic, but that would probably be it.

 

He could already use portals before absorbing Discord's powers, and the only kind of "chaotic" magic he used was locking Twilight's friends into bubbles, (It did have Discord's trademark finger snap)

 

 

Thinking about it, I would love seeing Discord going all out one day. We've never seen him put any real effort into his magic, so easy it seems for him to wield it. As if he never used more than a small portion of it at any time. Discord unleashing his full power would be a scary sight to see.

 

In short it could be like this: Alicorn and conventional magic need to follow certain pre-defined rules in its use. Chaos Magic is more like: "Pfft, forget those rules. I do whatever I want."

 

 

Thanks again everyone for your replies and sharing your insights and perspectives. I really appreciate it.

Edited October 29, 2015 by JH24

[Lambdadelta 1,462]

Not only Discord's can alter/manipulate ponies and everything surround them, Alicorn/Unicorn magic can do that too, such as Alicorn amulet, time travel spell, love spell, Starwirl's spell in MMC and REFORMATION spell (that spell is scary whenever i think about it...). Discord can outplay Alicorns due to his snarkiness and unlimited amount time of uses. So i think Alicorn power can on-par with chaotic power. Chaotic power can alter reality but Alicorn power can bring balance and even destruction.

[Chronamut 355]

another question - with dischord reformed doesn't this mean there is an imbalance with harmony magic and chaos magic?

[JH24 385]

Not only Discord's can alter/manipulate ponies and everything surround them, Alicorn/Unicorn magic can do that too, such as Alicorn amulet, time travel spell, love spell, Starwirl's spell in MMC and REFORMATION spell (that spell is scary whenever i think about it...). Discord can outplay Alicorns due to his snarkiness and unlimited amount time of uses. So i think Alicorn power can on-par with chaotic power. Chaotic power can alter reality but Alicorn power can bring balance and even destruction.

 

Good point, I forgot about that. Yeah, Alicorn Magic can certainly use more indirect magic like time travel and love spells as well. But I do feel Alicorn/Unicorn Magic is more specialized, certain spells need to be created for a specific need. Discord on the other hand doesn't seem to be casting spells, at least not visibly. It's more like he thinks about something or wants something and it just happens. And like you said, Discord's Magic has unlimited uses, I'm not 100% sure the same Alicorn Spell can be cast multiple times after each other without additional preparation.

 

I love your last sentence about Alicorn and Chaotic power. Very well said.

 

 

another question - with dischord reformed doesn't this mean there is an imbalance with harmony magic and chaos magic?

 

Very good point. Again, I'm just speculating here, but personally I think there is actually a balance right now. Discord is the representation of the power of Chaos. And even though he's reformed, he still walks free on Equestria, and he likely still uses his Chaos Magic from time to time to fullfill his role as Master of Chaos, but likely on a smaller scale and without harming other ponies.

 

During Discord's reign there was an imbalance in favor of Chaos, as Harmony had almost disappeared. During Celestia's reign after Discord's first defeat, there was an imbalance in favor of Harmony. But with Discord now being free, I think there's a good balance between Harmony and Chaos right now. 

 

 

Celestia very likely knew this, and felt that the Mane 6 had the best chance of restoring balance between Harmony and Chaos by reforming Discord. After all, if Discord would remain locked in stone, his escape, be it in a thousand or a few thousand years, would be unavoidable. And if one of the next generations of ponies would fail to stop Discord once more, the whole world would be at the mercy of an unreformed Discord.

 

Of course, only time will tell if it will remain this way. Discord still represents Chaos, and its the nature of Chaos to try changing the status quo from time to time.

Edited October 29, 2015 by JH24

[Xeltor23 704]

I think Discord is equal, let's say, to Celestia in raw power. However, his Chaotic magic is so random, so particular, we have the impression he's invincible. Well, we saw in the finale that if he is overpowered, it seems his magic doesn't have an effect on the person overpowering him. So, no magic negation on something more powerful than him (if I'm wrong, then Discord would have stopped Tirek the moment he grabbed him). Also, it's "just"  magic, like unicorn magic, alicorn magic... it's not THAT different, I mean, I'm sure there are some things reserved to Discord's magic, but I don't think we saw them already.

 

To answer separately each of your questions, here is what I think:

 

_Discord's Magic has a limit like any other one (against Tirek)

_I don't think so, I think he's Celestia's equal,  but she just doesn't know how to beat him on her own

_ No (he was overpowered by Tirek)

_ Possibly, if he wanted to. But then, the princesses would give their power to Twilight once more, and she would overpower him then, and the same thing with Tirek would happen again

_ God yes, Tirek didn't absorb all of the ponies magic, I mean, it was never said; I merely think he absorbed those that we saw, not more, or if more, not a lot.

 

Also, I think Discord's magic is reserved to him, there are some negative magic out there, but Discord's is his. Alicorn magic is for alicorns or maybe, why not, VERY high-leveled unicorns.

[Chronamut 355]

I believe dischord has much larger reserves of chaos magic, as there is never really a time he is NOT using it at any given time - transforming himself into all manner of things.. if celestia tried to use her as much as he did she would fail.

 

I simply think tirek caught dischord off guard and he was shocked that their friendship fell apart, to the point that maybe he simply didn't WANT to stop him.

Edited October 29, 2015 by Chronamut

[Xeltor23 704]

I believe dischord has much larger reserves of chaos magic, as there is never really a time he is NOT using it at any given time - transforming himself into all manner of things.. if celestia tried to use her as much as he did she would fail.

 

I simply think tirek caught dischord off guard and he was shocked that their friendship fell apart, to the point that maybe he simply didn't WANT to stop him.

I don't know, I'm not convinced. Also, like some other people, I noticed that he didn't grow when he absorbed Discord's power as when he absorbed the power of 4 alicorns (I consider myself Celestia, and maybe Luna, equal to him),  maybe he uses his power at a much lower rate or, like I said, transforming into all kind of things, like you say, is maybe one of the abilities his power gives him, to do so without a lot of difficulty.

 

To sum up, here is what I think his power is: to control reality, in the way he likes, as long as the target doesn't have more raw power than him. I think it's pretty logic, but then, it's my point of view

[Chronamut 355]

I believe dischord only has the ability to manipulate what is existing into different form - so this would make sense that absorbing that would simply only change how tirek looks, not his size, whereas alicorn magic has the power to create and destroy, and so this would be an added power, making him bigger.. but that is just my theory.

[Xeltor23 704]

I believe dischord only has the ability to manipulate what is existing into different form - so this would make sense that absorbing that would simply only change how tirek looks, not his size, whereas alicorn magic has the power to create and destroy, and so this would be an added power, making him bigger.. but that is just my theory.

Seems legit, but I don't think Discord is only limited to that. He may have the ability to destroy too, but don't forget his style is to play and trap his enemies, so he doesn't do it. His power is supposed to be chaotic, so it would be expected that he can create things that aren't supposed to be there, who doesn't have a sense.

 

 

But your theory could be true, too

[Chronamut 355]

yours could be too - he was eating those seeds that grew to choke the tree of life, buuut he could have just gotten them from somewhere.. by teleporting them to him.. it really is interesting to think about.

[cmarston1 5,962]

I would say that they are around the same level of magical strength but operate on completely different ways.

[JH24 385]

I think Discord is equal, let's say, to Celestia in raw power. However, his Chaotic magic is so random, so particular, we have the impression he's invincible. Well, we saw in the finale that if he is overpowered, it seems his magic doesn't have an effect on the person overpowering him. So, no magic negation on something more powerful than him (if I'm wrong, then Discord would have stopped Tirek the moment he grabbed him). Also, it's "just"  magic, like unicorn magic, alicorn magic... it's not THAT different, I mean, I'm sure there are some things reserved to Discord's magic, but I don't think we saw them already.

 

To answer separately each of your questions, here is what I think:

 

_Discord's Magic has a limit like any other one (against Tirek)

_I don't think so, I think he's Celestia's equal,  but she just doesn't know how to beat him on her own

_ No (he was overpowered by Tirek)

_ Possibly, if he wanted to. But then, the princesses would give their power to Twilight once more, and she would overpower him then, and the same thing with Tirek would happen again

_ God yes, Tirek didn't absorb all of the ponies magic, I mean, it was never said; I merely think he absorbed those that we saw, not more, or if more, not a lot.

 

Also, I think Discord's magic is reserved to him, there are some negative magic out there, but Discord's is his. Alicorn magic is for alicorns or maybe, why not, VERY high-leveled unicorns.

 

Thanks for your detailed reply and point of view. I appreciate it.

 

Against Tirek, I always got the impression he was too stunned when finding out Tirek betrayed him, only then realizing what he had done to Fluttershy. We didn't see any attempt from him to fight Tirek's hold. 

 

In raw power, I actually believe Celestia is even stronger than Discord. But somehow she's not able to use her magic in an effective way on him. In the season 4 finale Celestia stated that she, Luna and Cadence (and perhaps Twilight) wouldn't be able to stop Tirek with Discord protecting him. This could indicate that even the combined power of the princesses working together would not be enough. You're right that there might be a way to fight Discord Celestia doesn't know about. She and Luna very likely tried that during Discord's reign at first, before resorting to the Elements of Harmony.

 

Yeah, I do agree that Discord's magic seems unique to him. It almost seems the magic is an extension of himself, which would explain why he's wielding it with such ease. (Or so it seems)

 

Thanks again for sharing your views. That's exactly what I was hoping for. And you definitely make some good points.

 

I believe dischord has much larger reserves of chaos magic, as there is never really a time he is NOT using it at any given time - transforming himself into all manner of things.. if celestia tried to use her as much as he did she would fail.

 

I simply think tirek caught dischord off guard and he was shocked that their friendship fell apart, to the point that maybe he simply didn't WANT to stop him.

 

Thank you for your reply. I appreciate it. I feel as well Discord is only using a portion of his magical power. He never seems to exert or push himself, almost everything he does seems so easy. We can only wonder how things would go if Discord would decide to get serious. Like for example him being in a situation where he needs to protect Fluttershy.

 

 

 

Edited October 29, 2015 by JH24

[Chronamut 355]

we also have to remember that dischord was deliberately created to resemble a certain star trek character, and so to understand dischord, perhaps we should examine THAT character, and ITS attributes more closely.