movies/tv Cartoon Network UK censors lesbian dance scene in Steven Universe

[Dawning Demon 950]

No offence to anyone here but what do these discussions even hope to accomplish? Its just constant moaning and bitching that kids are getting homosexuality removed from their programming, At the end of the day its great that cartoons are starting embrace the LGBT community but of course some country's and TV stations are going to have different opinions but their isn't any point complaining about it as I don't think kids themselves are worried about gay couples being removed from their cartoons as they just want to watch an epic story.

 

In no way am I saying it was right for them to remove it as I'm a huge fan of the Steven Universe series its just that we are making a huge bitching fuss over nothing, the world is clearly changing and homosexual relationships are slowly coming onto our TV screens which is awesome but we have to remember we have to take "baby steps" with some people as they start to embrace how things are changing, we cant throw things into their faces then bitch and moan about it when they throw it back.

 

by the way... GEMS DONT HAVE GENDERS

Edited January 10, 2016 by Dawning Demon

[Ponies4Bronies 394]

I'm not backing down lol. I just can't stand people who don't understand that other people have opinions and get butthurt so easily when they do. And then all they do is cry, its two seconds why should kids be seeing that even if its not sexual but other people don't like children seeing that, hence the censored episode. I don't mind. They have accomplished so much in getting rights and acceptance in society, two seconds won't take away centuries of work. So just calm down and not every kid watches Steven Universe(sadly good show) but the next generation wont be homophobic its present in society and accepted. Just look at Ellen shes rich. 

Edited January 10, 2016 by Rainbow Dashe

[MasterSpark95 430]

No offence to anyone here but what do these discussions even hope to accomplish? Its just constant moaning and bitching that kids are getting homosexuality removed from their programming, At the end of the day its great that cartoons are starting embrace the LGBT community but of course some country's and TV stations are going to have different opinions but their isn't any point complaining about it as I don't think kids themselves are worried about gay couples being removed from their cartoons as they just want to watch an epic story.

 

In no way am I saying it was right for them to remove it as I'm a huge fan of the Steven Universe series its just that we are making a huge bitching fuss over nothing, the world is clearly changing and homosexual relationships are slowly coming onto our TV screens which is awesome but we have to remember we have to take "baby steps" with some people as they start to embrace how things are changing, we cant throw things into their faces then bitch and moan about it when they throw it back.

 

by the way... GEMS DONT HAVE GENDERS

Wow, that was really well said. *claps*

[Discordian 6,015]

So they'll include hetero romance but not homosexual romance even though the two are exactly the same level of lewdness? It's not like homosexual relationships are somehow different.

 

Hahaha, I fucking hate everything.

[cider float 2,538]

What surprises me that UK does this. This sounds like something U.S. would do. 

 

Also there is no sexism involved it's just mild homophobia.

Edited January 10, 2016 by cider float

[Trixie Heartstrings 434]

What surprises me that UK does this. This sounds like something U.S. would do. 

 

Also there is no sexism involved it's just mild homophobia.

Yeah because fundamentalist religious groups tend to be the ones who are get upset about gay couples, and those groups are way more common in the U.S. than they are in the UK(the Beatles "bigger than Jesus" controversy is an example of this). I also agree about how it's mild homophobia, and that it isn't sexist since as others have pointed out, they probably would've done the same thing if it were 2 men.

[Dark Qiviut 22,444]

but there;'s no need to throw sexism into it. If it was 2 men I imagine they'd have censored it too. The gender doesn't matter here.

Also there is no sexism involved it's just mild homophobia.

and that it isn't sexist since as others have pointed out, they probably would've done the same thing if it were 2 men.

Gender does matter here. CN UK's censorship of that scene is homophobic, but once more, it's more than only homophobia, even if it CN UK doesn't think so. If the dance was heterosexual, CN UK won't censor it. Homophobia and sexism are backed by heterosexism, a vile form of bigotry. CN UK used heterosexism to censor the scene. To call it not sexist undercuts the censorship's homophobic implications.

 

And, no, Cider, it isn't mild homophobia. It's explicit homophobia, and CN UK's copout only makes it even more transparent.

 

Such a big deal over two seconds in an animated TV show. Don't forget homosexuals are still STONED to death in the Middle East and we are complaining about two seconds. #firstworldproblems

No offence to anyone here but what do these discussions even hope to accomplish? Its just constant moaning and bitching that kids are getting homosexuality removed from their programming, At the end of the day its great that cartoons are starting embrace the LGBT community but of course some country's and TV stations are going to have different opinions but their isn't any point complaining about it as I don't think kids themselves are worried about gay couples being removed from their cartoons as they just want to watch an epic story.

 

In no way am I saying it was right for them to remove it as I'm a huge fan of the Steven Universe series its just that we are making a huge bitching fuss over nothing, the world is clearly changing and homosexual relationships are slowly coming onto our TV screens which is awesome but we have to remember we have to take "baby steps" with some people as they start to embrace how things are changing, we cant throw things into their faces then bitch and moan about it when they throw it back.

 

by the way... GEMS DONT HAVE GENDERS

I'm not backing down lol. I just can't stand people who don't understand that other people have opinions and get butthurt so easily when they do. And then all they do is cry, its two seconds why should kids be seeing that even if its not sexual but other people don't like children seeing that, hence the censored episode. I don't mind. They have accomplished so much in getting rights and acceptance in society, two seconds won't take away centuries of work. So just calm down and not every kid watches Steven Universe(sadly good show) but the next generation wont be homophobic its present in society and accepted. Just look at Ellen shes rich. 

Both of you don't understand what makes CN UK's censorship of this scene so offensive. One central reason Steven Universe is created is to show kids and their guardians that same-sex couples are real and they matter. It doesn't matter if Gems are technically agender; the fact that they're designed as male, female, bigender, and genderqueer tells the audience a lot about how they appreciate their LGBT+ audience. Children's books and family shows have shown same-sex romances before, but SU is very overt about it.

 

By censoring this scene and copping out as "inappropriate for kids," CN UK tells LGBT adults, LGBT kids, and kids of LGBT couples that their representations don't matter and they're not actual people. For them to whitewash two pivotal seconds of this episode and defend this bullshit denies their legitimacy. Representation matters, and kids know this way more than you give credit for. Our anger at CN UK is 100% valid.

 

It's a terrible idea to shut up and tolerate Cartoon Network UK's excuses. Why? Because you implicate that what CN UK did in that scene is okay, which in turn risks them censoring more homosexual stuff and forcing CN US to consider telling the Crewniverse to tone it down. By ranting; showing the implications; calling out CN UK;, and saying their blatant homophobia, sexism, and heterosexism aren't okay, you hold CN and its UK branch accountable. The next time they even attempt this garbage, the SU fanbase will be ready to blast them again.

 

Also, Dashe, I don't appreciate you attempting to invalidate their anger by using the fallacy of relative privation, sarcastic "first-world problems" hashtag, and homophobic "butthurt" ad hominem. The Middle East's murder of homosexuals is a very serious matter that we should discuss elsewhere. But that doesn't invalidate the LGBT+'s struggles here in the west. The LGBT community still fights for acceptance in the west, including in (child-friendly) media. For CN UK to censor this scene proves there's still a long way to go, and a few episodes explicitly character-study Ruby and Sapphire's lesbian relationship. SU fans in the UK have every reason to worry what CN will do to it in the future.

 

You attempt to sway the argument by being Devil's Advocates. The fact that you used poor logic, ad hominems (accusing the people here of bitching/moaning and acting butthurt), and handwaved the valid complaints killed your opinions.

Edited January 11, 2016 by Dark Qiviut

[Guest]

Gender does matter here. CN UK's censorship of that scene is homophobic, but once more, it's more than only homophobia, even if it CN UK doesn't think so. If the dance was heterosexual, CN UK won't censor it. Homophobia and sexism are backed by heterosexism, a vile form of bigotry. CN UK used heterosexism to censor the scene. To call it not sexist undercuts the censorship's homophobic implications.

 

And, no, Cider, it isn't mild homophobia. It's explicit homophobia, and CN UK's copout only makes it even more transparent.

 

Both of you don't understand what makes CN UK's censorship of this scene so offensive. One central reason Steven Universe is created is to show kids and their guardians that same-sex couples are real and they matter. It doesn't matter if Gems are technically agender; the fact that they're designed as male, female, bigender, and genderqueer tells the audience a lot about how they appreciate their LGBT+ audience. Children's books and family shows have shown same-sex romances before, but SU is very overt about it.

 

By censoring this scene and copping out as "inappropriate for kids," CN UK tells LGBT adults, LGBT kids, and kids of LGBT couples that their representations don't matter and they're not actual people. For them to whitewash two pivotal seconds of this episode and defend this bullshit denies their legitimacy. Representation matters, and kids know this way more than you give credit for. Our anger at CN UK is 100% valid.

 

It's a terrible idea to shut up and tolerate Cartoon Network UK's excuses. Why? Because you implicate that what CN UK did in that scene is okay, which in turn risks them censoring more homosexual stuff and forcing CN US to consider telling the Crewniverse to tone it down. By ranting; showing the implications; calling out CN UK;, and saying their blatant homophobia, sexism, and heterosexism aren't okay, you hold CN and its UK branch accountable. The next time they even attempt this garbage, the SU fanbase will be ready to blast them again.

 

Also, Dashe, I don't appreciate you attempting to invalidate their anger by using the fallacy of relative privation, sarcastic "first-world problems" hashtag, and homophobic "butthurt" ad hominem. The Middle East's murder of homosexuals is a very serious matter that we should discuss elsewhere. But that doesn't invalidate the LGBT+'s struggles here in the west. The LGBT community still fights for acceptance in the west, including in (child-friendly) media. For CN UK to censor this scene proves there's still a long way to go, and a few episodes explicitly character-study Ruby and Sapphire's lesbian relationship. SU fans in the UK have every reason to worry what CN will do to it in the future.

 

You attempt to sway the argument by being Devil's Advocates. The fact that you used poor logic, ad hominems (accusing the people here of bitching/moaning and acting butthurt), and handwaved the valid complaints killed your opinions.

I kind of have to admit that Dark has a lot of valid points. This censorship has far deeper connotations than just "oh no kids won't see gay couple". The scene censored didn't even have a kiss in it, it was just dancing. It's pre-emptive censoring to top it off, they censored it before anything even happened. Nothing happened in that scene except a dance and a stare that looked mildly romantic.

 

It's basically telling kids that they shouldn't even see gay people exist.

[cider float 2,538]

Please, homosexuals have far worst things to worry about than a cartoon.

[AEDAZ 176]

Homosexuals aren't being oppressed in western culture. Think about it... here in the west more people have a problem with you actively speaking out against gay marriage (not that speaking out against it does anything at this point) than speaking for it. If a celebrity got on stage and claimed they were against it, you bet people would lose their sh*t over it. But if they were to say they were for it, then no one really cares because you just sort of expect people to be more open to that sort of thing these days. No one calls the former "brave" or "a hero" even though that would be the one to stir up the most controversy, and risk putting a greater dent in their reputation than the latter.

Edited January 11, 2016 by Aedaz

[Guest]

Please, homosexuals have far worst things to worry about than a cartoon.

This is what we like to call "dismissing the argument". Essentially you're attempting to claim that because worse problems exist that smaller problems should be completely ignored. It's a fallacy and brings nothing to the table nor does it provide a sound argument defending CN UK's decision. In other words it's the equivalent of saying "I have no argument" because you are not really adding anything to the discussion.

 

 

 

Homosexuals aren't being oppressed in western culture

 

In comparison to some cultures, you would be right, however in comparison to how heterosexuals are being treated, it is definitely oppressive. We are not talking about "in comparison to the rest of the world" we are talking about having the same rights, privileges, and treatment as everyone else in the same location. So broadening the argument to encompass the whole world is kind of a cop out to try and make the problem seem less important by increasing the scale.

 

The fact remains though that if one group of people in a country is treated lesser than another group based upon something that should be irrelevant to other people it is still oppression.

 

 

 

Think about it... here in the west more people have a problem with you actively speaking out against gay marriage (not that speaking out against it does anything at this point) than speaking for it.

 

That is untrue. There are many areas where people still openly oppose gay marriage and are met with little to no opposition. People still find it acceptable to down talk homosexuality and use it as a joke to insult people. It is widely used even in New York which is one of the most liberal states in the US. It is still incredibly common for people to use "you're gay' or "that's gay" as an insult and it's rarely attacked.

 

The fact that there even IS gay marriage opposition shows that there still is discrimination. No one is rallying to oppose straight marriage, that's for sure. Just because the numbers have dropped does not mean the oppression has vanished.

 

 

 

If a celebrity got on stage and claimed they were against it, you bet people would lose their sh*t over it.

 

And yet just as many would support it. Donald Trump is running for president and he has 30% of the polls and he is opposed to gay marriage.

 

 

 

But if they were to say they were for it, then no one really cares because you just sort of expect people to be more open to that sort of thing these days.

 

Not true either. Many people still will express their disapproval of people supporting gay marriage to the point where they will not even let their children watch those celebrities. Disney saw a huge surge of people who said they would stop allowing their children to watch Disney Channel after showing a same sex couple in a show.

 

 

 

No one calls the former "brave" or "a hero"

 

Many people call Donald Trump "brave" for speaking his mind and he actively speaks against gay marriage, Mexicans, and Muslims. All of which are discriminatory, and yet the man has a good shot at being president. People are STILL being praised for homophobia. Hell one of the cast members of Duck Dynasty had a ton of fans defend him for his homophobic remarks and the show's ratings shot up.

 

So no, homosexuals are still being oppressed in western culture. Until they have the exact same rights and treatment as heterosexuals, this will always be true.

[Envy 6,182]

This is what we like to call "dismissing the argument". Essentially you're attempting to claim that because worse problems exist that smaller problems should be completely ignored. It's a fallacy and brings nothing to the table nor does it provide a sound argument defending CN UK's decision. In other words it's the equivalent of saying "I have no argument" because you are not really adding anything to the discussion.

 

 

 

 

In comparison to some cultures, you would be right, however in comparison to how heterosexuals are being treated, it is definitely oppressive. We are not talking about "in comparison to the rest of the world" we are talking about having the same rights, privileges, and treatment as everyone else in the same location. So broadening the argument to encompass the whole world is kind of a cop out to try and make the problem seem less important by increasing the scale.

 

The fact remains though that if one group of people in a country is treated lesser than another group based upon something that should be irrelevant to other people it is still oppression.

 

 

 

 

That is untrue. There are many areas where people still openly oppose gay marriage and are met with little to no opposition. People still find it acceptable to down talk homosexuality and use it as a joke to insult people. It is widely used even in New York which is one of the most liberal states in the US. It is still incredibly common for people to use "you're gay' or "that's gay" as an insult and it's rarely attacked.

 

The fact that there even IS gay marriage opposition shows that there still is discrimination. No one is rallying to oppose straight marriage, that's for sure. Just because the numbers have dropped does not mean the oppression has vanished.

 

 

 

 

And yet just as many would support it. Donald Trump is running for president and he has 30% of the polls and he is opposed to gay marriage.

 

 

 

 

Not true either. Many people still will express their disapproval of people supporting gay marriage to the point where they will not even let their children watch those celebrities. Disney saw a huge surge of people who said they would stop allowing their children to watch Disney Channel after showing a same sex couple in a show.

 

 

 

 

Many people call Donald Trump "brave" for speaking his mind and he actively speaks against gay marriage, Mexicans, and Muslims. All of which are discriminatory, and yet the man has a good shot at being president. People are STILL being praised for homophobia. Hell one of the cast members of Duck Dynasty had a ton of fans defend him for his homophobic remarks and the show's ratings shot up.

 

So no, homosexuals are still being oppressed in western culture. Until they have the exact same rights and treatment as heterosexuals, this will always be true.

 

Amen!

 

Homophobia is still deeply ingrained in our culture. The very fact that this scene from this cartoon could be censored speaks volumes. A heterosexual kiss to the same degree would NEVER be considered "inappropriate". Heterosexuality is so accepted as normal. Homosexuality is considered 'deviant', and any action/thought of love between two same sex individuals is considered inherently "sexual". Whereas heterosexuality to many degrees is all over children's media. It is the foundation of many of them.

 

How anyone can live around here and not see how homophobic we still are really confuses me. This is a dangerous thought. It's the same as those who cast aside all claims of our cultures still holding onto sexism and racism. Racism did not end when slavery ended (obviously...I hope, anyway), nor did it end when Civil Rights laws were passed, and the Jim Crow laws were taken down. Sexism did not end when women gained the right to vote. And homophobia most certainly hasn't ended with the passing of same-sex marriage. Wake up. There is still so much homophobia bulging up, and this is obvious as can be. Not even same-sex marriage is truthfully accepted. You can find news of lawmakers around the USA trying to make sure same-sex marriage can not be allowed in their cities/counties/states.

Edited January 11, 2016 by Envy

[Dawning Demon 950]

Sadly homosexuality will never be excepted by everyone that's just the way things are, we cant just expect everyone in the world to be on the same page over night like I said before we have to take "baby steps" with some people and their views will change as the view of homosexuality is slowly being excepted into society like it should be, If people keep playing the victim card all the time like I see in this thread then I don't think homosexuality will be taken seriously it just comes across as bitching and moaning.

 

It was stupid that they removed alittle clip like that I'm not saying it wasn't and I'm not siding with Cartoon Network UK because I think what they did was alittle homophobic but you have to see it from both sides of the argument.

 

Society will eventually phased out homophobia as the newer generations are becoming more accepting, it cant happen over night like I see some of you people expect it too because that's were arguments come in.

Edited January 11, 2016 by Dawning Demon

[Envy 6,182]

Society will eventually faze out homophobia as the newer generations are becoming more accepting, it cant happen over night like I see some of you people expect it too because that's were arguments come in.

 

Just like it has so successfully fazed out sexism and racism... Right? [/sarcasm]

 

Nope, we must remain vigilant. These prejudices thrive on inaction, on letting 'small things' like this slip by. This is not small, by the way. Homosexuality being introduced into children's media as a natural, acceptable thing is extremely important. It is fundamental.

Edited January 11, 2016 by Envy

[Dawning Demon 950]

Just like it has so successfully fazed out sexism and racism... Right? [/sarcasm]

 

Nope, we must remain vigilant. These prejudices thrive on inaction, on letting 'small things' like this slip by. This is not small, by the way. Homosexuality being introduced into children's media as a natural, acceptable thing is extremely important. It is fundamental.

You cant expect these horrible things to just "disappear" that's sadly not how the world works, and homosexual themes "are" being introduced to mass media, Steven Universe and Adventure Time for example, and there's a whole "Gay and Lesbian Film section" on movie sites and outlets, you don't see them being taken down so see that as a foot in the right direction, you will always have opposite sides to arguments you can never get rid of that.

[Envy 6,182]

You cant expect these horrible things to just "disappear" that's sadly not how the world works, and homosexual themes "are" being introduced to mass media, Steven Universe and Adventure Time for example, and there's a whole "Gay and Lesbian Film section" on movie sites and outlets, you don't see them being taken down so see that as a foot in the right direction, you will always have opposite sides to arguments you can never get rid of that.

 

I'm not expecting it to disappear overnight. I don't know where you're getting that idea from. I'm saying if we aren't vigilant, it will live on stronger. It can't disappear throughout the generations by standing by and "letting it faze out by itself". As is indicated by how all of these generations later sexism and racism are still deeply ingrained in our culture. (I'm not saying there has always been inaction, but there sure has been a lot of passive acceptance, and that is a big problem, and that's how it remains around)

 

Outrage over this scene being censored is important. Even if it doesn't overturn the censoring, it raises awareness. We are in the age of social media, after all.

[Dawning Demon 950]

I'm not expecting it to disappear overnight. I don't know where you're getting that idea from. I'm saying if we aren't vigilant, it will live on stronger. It can't disappear throughout the generations by standing by and "letting it faze out by itself". As is indicated by how all of these generations later sexism and racism are still deeply ingrained in our culture. (I'm not saying there has always been inaction, but there sure has been a lot of passive acceptance, and that is a big problem, and that's how it remains around)

 

Outrage over this scene being censored is important. Even if it doesn't overturn the censoring, it raises awareness. We are in the age of social media, after all.

It was probably the whole idea of getting typical soccer mom complaints being the reason behind CN (UK)'s decision. The reason I brought up generations was one of the reasons curtain people have their views is because of their upbringing and eventually it will "mostly" be phased out due to modern understandings on homosexuality, of course you will still have people with opposite opinions who should be put right staying around the same reason in some parts of the world there is still racism and sexism. (I don't condone any of that by the way) I'm not saying people shouldn't complain or have the right to speak out on what they believe is right but we have to see it from both sides and not come across as if we are forcing opinion.

 

I hope to see a world where everyone is excepted for who they are, but sadly that's not today but things are getting better and it will happen eventually.

[Ponies4Bronies 394]

Bringing about change too quickly can have negative affects on progress. The world won't change that quickly. I hope you guys realize that. People have different upbringings that leads them to their opinions those are not easily changed.

[Guest]

Bringing about change too quickly can have negative affects on progress. The world won't change that quickly. I hope you guys realize that. People have different upbringings that leads them to their opinions those are not easily changed.

I wouldn't call going backwards in progress "slowing down" the process. Going backwards is not about "going too quickly" it's about bigots refusing to accept reality.

 

 

Sadly homosexuality will never be excepted by everyone that's just the way things are, we cant just expect everyone in the world to be on the same page over night like I said before we have to take "baby steps" with some people and their views will change as the view of homosexuality is slowly being excepted into society like it should be, If people keep playing the victim card all the time like I see in this thread then I don't think homosexuality will be taken seriously it just comes across as bitching and moaning.

 

It's kind of hard to progress forward with "baby steps" when people are doing things like this which are taking steps backward. We can never get to where we need to be by taking baby steps when the opposition makes huge steps back. It's not "whining" it's being fed up with people having the mentality of "we need to give people time to adjust." Adjust to what? That gay people EXIST? That people who are not you will do things with their genitals that you will never be forced to endure, witness or even think about? Why do people need to be coddled so slowly into accepting people how they are when it's none of their business anyways?

 

No. The problem is not "we need to take baby steps" the problem is we have a society that needs to be coddled into accepting things that they don't agree with have a right to exist and they have no place discriminating against it. We have gone too long taking "baby steps" to solve the problem. The solution is to stop coddling bigots and try to convince them to change and to just make them deal with it.

 

Inaction and saying "people don't change over night" and even excusing it by saying "it's not a HUGE crisis" is how these prejudices have existed for so long, by enough people enabling them.

[Ponies4Bronies 394]

I wouldn't call going backwards in progress "slowing down" the process. Going backwards is not about "going too quickly" it's about bigots refusing to accept reality.

So having religious beliefs now makes you a bigot, huh?

[Dawning Demon 950]

I wouldn't call going backwards in progress "slowing down" the process. Going backwards is not about "going too quickly" it's about bigots refusing to accept reality.

 

 

 

 

It's kind of hard to progress forward with "baby steps" when people are doing things like this which are taking steps backward. We can never get to where we need to be by taking baby steps when the opposition makes huge steps back. It's not "whining" it's being fed up with people having the mentality of "we need to give people time to adjust." Adjust to what? That gay people EXIST? That people who are not you will do things with their genitals that you will never be forced to endure, witness or even think about? Why do people need to be coddled so slowly into accepting people how they are when it's none of their business anyways?

 

No. The problem is not "we need to take baby steps" the problem is we have a society that needs to be coddled into accepting things that they don't agree with have a right to exist and they have no place discriminating against it. We have gone too long taking "baby steps" to solve the problem. The solution is to stop coddling bigots and try to convince them to change and to just make them deal with it.

 

Inaction and saying "people don't change over night" and even excusing it by saying "it's not a HUGE crisis" is how these prejudices have existed for so long, by enough people enabling them.

You really need to chill because I'm on your side. I'm pro-homosexual rights.

[Guest]

So having religious beliefs now makes you a bigot, huh?

If those beliefs involve trying to stop an entire group of people from being given the same rights and privileges as everyone else even when they are not aiming to do so under your religious umbrella then I would say yes. That is a fair assessment. You are entitled to have your religion, you are not entitled to make your religious rules into law and govern other people's lives by it. That is what our country was founded on.

You really need to chill because I'm on your side. I'm pro-homosexual rights.

I'm very fine actually. I am just debating and proposing how your stance is detrimental to the cause.

[Dawning Demon 950]

If those beliefs involve trying to stop an entire group of people from being given the same rights and privileges as everyone else even when they are not aiming to do so under your religious umbrella then I would say yes. That is a fair assessment. You are entitled to have your religion, you are not entitled to make your religious rules into law and govern other people's lives by it. That is what our country was founded on.

 

I'm very fine actually. I am just debating and proposing how your stance is detrimental to the cause.

It isn't "detrimental" to look at both sides of the argument with respect, As I said I'm on the side for homosexuality but I like to look at both sides with a clear view and not just rise myself up to the bigot standard of showing hatred to one side.

[Guest]

It isn't "detrimental" to look at both sides of the argument with respect, As I said I'm on the side for homosexuality but I like to look at both sides with a clear view and not just rise myself up to the bigot standard of showing hatred to one side.

Nor am I doing such. I am merely pointing out that the "baby steps" mentality is what has taken so long to get even an inkling of progress and is sometimes detrimental as progress is lost faster than it is gained at times.

[Dawning Demon 950]

Nor am I doing such. I am merely pointing out that the "baby steps" mentality is what has taken so long to get even an inkling of progress and is sometimes detrimental as progress is lost faster than it is gained at times.

Some people are more accepting then others and eventually that stigma of hatred will die out, the cases of homophobia have gone down dramatically if you compare last year with cases of homophobia in 2003 for example.