Why Starlight Glimmer and villain reform is genius (a criminal justice view)

[Simon 4,557]

Since as far back as Episode 2 of the series when Celestia didn't drop kick her sister to the moon, people have complained about "unnecessary" villain reform. But the truth is that the consistent efforts to reform villains in the show present, perhaps, the single most important moral lesson of the entire series. No, this isn't just a stale rant where I scream "love & tolerate" and "forgive people yo". If the villain reforms seem "unnatural" or you don't understand why the ponies are so forgiving... good. You're not supposed to get it. Because what the show is actually doing is challenging thousands of years of human practices towards criminals that have gotten us nowhere. Let me explain...

 

I've spent the past several years of my life studying, researching, and working in the field of criminal justice... I started off with 4 years volunteer work in a juvenile justice diversionary court, then went on to earn my AA in Criminal Justice followed quickly by my BA. After that I went to law school where I earned my Juris Doctorate, and I'm currently working on my Master's in Science in Criminal Justice and Criminology with a focus on Law Enforcement and Crime Prevention. I'm not giving my resume to sound egotistical, just to explain where the following viewpoint comes from.

 

Let me start from the beginning. Generally the arguments cited for why villain reform are bad fall into a few categories:

• "Wait what?" - Character could have been reformed but it was rushed / badly written / etc;
• "To the Moon!" - Villain deserved to be punished! Send them to Tartarus or the moon or something;
• "She's gonna kill everypony" - Villain is impossible to reform what are they even doing.
• "I liked them bad :(" - Reform made sense, but it screws up your headcanons about Discord enslaving ponyville.

I'm not going to be addressing the first of these reasons as I'm of the mindset that whether writing is good or bad is a subjective art, but what I will be addressing is why criminal justice theories explain that the other three reasons are non-issues, or at a minimum, trumped significantly by the benefits of these stories in the show.

 

Now, to explain this, I have to explain some criminal justice theories. In criminal justice, 'punishments' are divided into two theories or categories: Retributive punishments which seek to punish a person because they deserve punishment, and utilitarian punishments which seek to punish a person to prevent additional crime either from that individual or others.

 

Retributive punishments go back thousands of years to biblical times. This tidbit sound familiar?

 

 

Exodus 21:23-25 But if there is serious injury, you are to take life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise.

 

This is classic retributive punishment. It's entirely revenge based looking only to hurt the person who hurt you for the sake of hurting them. It's a very understandable and dare I say human way of thinking, but as a broader theory of punishment it only gets us so far.

 

That's where the genius of MLP's tendency to reform villains starts to shine. By our very nature, humans want to seek out retributive punishments. We like to see the bad guy suffer in exchange for wrongdoing, to the point that we even start to color non-retributive punishments as retributive. How many times have you thought someone 'deserved' to be in prison instead of thinking you're glad they aren't able to hurt someone else? How often do we criticize the existence of a plea of not guilty by reason of insanity instead of looking at the mental health services that plea option opens up to the defendant? But the show doesn't allow us to color villain reforms in this way by making it painfully obvious they're not trying to take a retributive route.

 

So let's look at utilitarian punishments. Utilitarian punishments are a broad scope of different forms of punishment that all try to in some way prevent future harm to society. Utilitarian punishments are further divided into three categories: Incapacitative punishments look to physically prevent the offender from wrongdoing like Luna being sent to the Moon or Tartarus; Deterrents look to either disincentivize crime for a single individual or a larger group such as the threat that villainizing Ponyville will land you in Tartarus; the third and far most underutilized form of punishment in the real world is Rehabilitation which of course looks to reform a specific individual to prevent them from offending later.

 

Now of all the theories of punishment, Rehabilitation is the single most desirable outcome, the problem is its the hardest to achieve. Incapacitative punishments like prisons are very expensive and lose all effectiveness once the person is released without being combined with a deterrent or rehabilitative punishment. Deterrents do sometimes prevent future crimes without continued monitoring, but they don't remove the criminality from the individual only scare them into submission. Rehabilitative punishments on the other hand seek to actually help the defendant, and that's a powerful tool. It not only prevents re-offending but it changes the person's mindset when successful, the problem with it is that it's very hard to pull off.

 

So Simon... if it's so hard to pull off then I'm right, it is unbelievable in MLP! To that I say pastel ponies. Nothing in the show is believable. Fantasy writing from its very core seeks to do one thing: paint a picture of a better world. MLP's universe is not our own, but a colorful playground where we can imagine what humanity can become if we try to encourage individuals to work towards a better end. What kind of picture would we be painting for our youth to strive for if the show resorted to primitive instincts of retribution in its dealings with villains?

 

I adore each and every instance of villain reform in MLP for one very good reason: it teaches the value of taking effort towards rehabilitating any offender that is willing and open to be rehabilitated.

 

Moreover, I'd argue that the ease in which the mane 6 accepts reforming villains in recent years paints the picture, perhaps incidentally, of a road to making people hold this sort of mentality themselves. Look at the major villain reforms in order (I'm skipping the non-Mane 6 reforms like Sunset and DT):

 

Nightmare Moon - At this early stage the Mane 6 had no intention of rehabilitating Luna. Their only knowledge of the elements was that it was what sent her to the moon, so when they blasted Nightmare Moon with magic rainbows, they fully intended to incapacitate her, but instead we got the pleasant surprise that it allowed Luna to break free of Nightmare Moon's grip and thus we have our first reform purely by accident.

 

Trixie - Trixie was and is very much a work in progress in my opinion as seen in the latest Trixie episode, but with her we saw a similar transformation as Nightmare Moon. She was under the influence of an element which significantly lessened her ability to make decisions for herself. She was genuinely grateful for the Mane 6 removing that elements hold on her, and thus it opened her up to rehabilitation, though not fully rehabilitating her on the spot.

 

Discord - Here's where things get interesting. To many he was rehabilitated far too quickly in the show, but if you look, the Mane 6 minus Flutters were fully ready to incapacitate him again. It was Fluttershy standing up to them in the spirit of her element that we're left with Fluttershy planting enough of a seed of what life without wrongdoing looks like in his head that he's at least open to the idea of reforming. It isn't until Tirek's betrayal that he really understands that friendship is more valuable than harming people for the sake of harming them. This also opens up the rest of the Mane 6's minds in believing rehabilitation can actually work.

 

Starlight Glimmer - Again, this isn't Twilight going in saying "Next time I see Starlight Glimmer I'm going to friend her butt into reform!" This is a classic tale of minor events in someone's past opening them up to a predisposition for criminality. Starlight Glimmer is not inherently an evil pony, but hardships in her life that are seemingly minor in retrospect built up hatred that consumed her. This is honestly one of the most realistic tv portrayals of the butterfly effect that happens in criminal minds every day. People aren't evil cause evil, they make bad choices because of their past. (I ranted about this more here if you'd like to check that out.) Point is, she's a prime candidate for rehabilitation. When Twilight realized during the time loop that Starlight didn't actually have an understanding of the implications of preventing Twilight's friendships, she showed her that reality in an effort to get her to stop herself, which worked. This is again, very realistic. A person who knew robbing that liquor store would result in his gun going off and killing the clerk would probably re-think it. This realization of the harm she was causing opened her up for reform in a realistic way... yes it was fast, but under the right circumstances, rehabilitation is fast.

 

My point is - as the series went on, the Mane 6 became more open to the idea of rehabilitation, and all of those prior successes led to their willingness to try the same with Starlight Glimmer. That was arguably the first and only time the mane 6 got in a circle and agreed to attempt to reform someone who seemed willing. It wasn't by accident or demand, but a group's concerted effort to do good.

 

That's a wonderful attitude to teach our youth. Yes, rehabilitation is hard in the real world, but it happens. And if more people went into life with the mindset that it's something we should strive to accomplish whenever possible, we'd have a better world.

 

Do they use the reform gun too much? Maybe. But in my opinion we use prisons too much, and I'd much rather see us overuse something positive than something negative.

[Lambdadelta 1,462]

Well done, you make me think differently about The Cutie Remark...    Anyway, the reasons behind the backlashs are not how rush the reformation is, but how that villain are not TREATED EQUALLY TO OTHER VILLAIN   (Sunset is a bitch, she gets her punishment. Starlight ruined the world, she become Twilight's student without any punishment). 

 

There no way can change people's mindset. Haters gonna hate... 

[Jeric 46,852]

I am Jack's exploding brain. Marry me! Seriously though well written indeed.

 

I know that you intentionally avoided Diamond Tiara's own change of heart ... but it also fits splendidly within the point you made. Looking at the CMC, children at that age tend to take on the trappings of society - they incorporate the views and emulate the actions of the role models in their lives. Having been made aware of the instances of Twililight and company's magnanimity likely had a profound influence on them. A societies view of rehabilitation (like many aspects of society) can be transferred generationally without a strong counter movement. A strong point can be made that the CMC represent the prevailing winds of Pony society and how the Mane 6 are having a profound impact on the next generation in their culture.

[Mesme Rize 15,683]

If i could, i would print this post out and put it in a golden photo frame, because this is ingenius. <3

[cider float 2,538]

Villains giving up their evil ways so quickly and for the lightest of reasons is not realistic and terrible in a theatrical sense. I know MLP is a children's cartoon but isn't MLP supposed to take the suck out of most typical children's cartoon shows on things like that?

 

Discord was handled okay though staying true to his mischievous ways thinking he could curb around the law and thinking he was smarter than the ponies but ended up finding out more about friendship than he thought.

Edited May 16, 2016 by cider float

[Concerned Bystander 2,902]

Reformation of villains in place of punishment is certainly most in keeping with the spirit of the cartoon.  The message the cartoon carries is that (almost) no-one is beyond redemption, and that forgiveness is always an option for the deserving, there is no surer way to defeat your enemy for good than to make them your friend.

 

The problem (as has already been mentioned) is a lack of consistency.  Luna, Starlight, and Discord were all offered friendship immediately, with no penance required from them.  Tirek was once again incarcerated, reformation probably wasn't a realistic approach for him.  Chrysalis is the odd one, she was let off scott-free without so much as a slap on the wrist.

 

Of course the most appropriate approach will inevitably be governed by the individual in question, they do after all, have to want reformation in order for that to work.

 

At the end of the day though, it's worth keeping in mind that for the right candidates, execution is still the only punishment with an absolute zero rate of re-offending.

Edited May 16, 2016 by Concerned Bystander

[Simon 4,557]

 

 

Villains giving up their evil ways so quickly and for the lightest of reasons is not realistic and terrible in a theatrical sense.

 

 

Nightmare Moon was controlled by an extrinsic force created by her own emotions, once she was removed from that it made sense that she would be instantaneously open to reform.

 

Trixie was never really a villain, she just had a moment of wanting revenge for Twilight showing her up. When she went a step too far and Twilight freed her from the Alicorn Amulet, she, again, had no reason not to reform to the degree she did. And the newest episode showed she still hadn't been 100% 'reformed', she just wasn't under the control of an evil mind control necklace

 

Diamond Tiara spent years trying to live up to the standards of her parents, and her reform episode took place when she hit rock bottom. She didn't like or understand her cutie mark, and the CMC showed her a bit of kindness and understanding where her mother only showed contempt. That's more than enough for a child to change their ways. - Great example of this in real life: one of my best friends in elementary school was a kid who picked on me relentlessly for the first half of the year. It finally blew up when I tried to help him up in the playground after he fell, and he responded by beating me up to look like he didn't need my help. After he apologized a few days later, the two of us became genuine friends. Sometimes all it takes for a child to reform is being forgiven by someone they think can't forgive them.

 

Starlight Glimmer never saw herself as a villain. She made a lot of bad choices because of her past, but she never had an intention to hurt someone or cause harm. She genuinely believed the world would be better in total equality without cutie marks or unique talents. The show makes it painfully obvious that she had no idea what her time travel was doing to Equestria... she was not living through or seeing the results, only causing the changes in the past. So when Twilight showed her what was happening, she initially went through denial, which is a completely normal reaction, then once she started to admit to herself that her actions truly were hurting others, she stopped herself.

 

The point? Fast transitions in a character's behaviors don't mean they're unrealistic or badly written. There's usually a turning point... a tiny brief moment where all our experiences tell us - alright it's time to make a change right now. The fact that the show does not show us every single event in their lives that may have influenced that turning point is only because the show can only tell so much, so instead they show us the last piece of the puzzle - the big event that pushed the character over the edge into realizing they need to make a change.

 

I'll also mention that there have only been a handful of characters that are genuinely evil for the sake of being evil - Discord, Sombra, Tirek, and maybe Chrysalis, the only one who was reformed being the one you said was fine. All of the other characters who were 'reformed' are people whose motives were such that it made perfect sense that they'd be open to reform at some point. As long as a character is not hurting people purely because they want to cause pain on a broad scale, there's no reason to believe they can't be reformed.

[Guest]

Honestly, I feel that villain reform is important. Many kids are taught that bad person does bad thing, and therefore bad and always bad. Ignoring reasoning why someone might have done something bad, or the possibility that they could change. Many good people perform bad actions for good reasons or misguided reasons. The problem with some of the earlier show villains before reform is that it told the viewer that bad people will always be bad and that punishment is not even really for a purpose besides maliciousness. An eternal punishment basically gives no one a chance to redeem themselves and defeats the purpose of punishment.

 

Celestia often times in the past just gave people "eternal" punishments, giving people little chance to improve. Fortunately she came around later.

 

In real life kids need to understand the reasoning behind bad actions not just associate the idea that the moment someone commits a crime, they should just be strictly punished as there is no excuse to ever commit a crime or wrong another person for any circumstances, ever. That any form of malicious behavior should not be met with any understanding whatsoever.

 

I feel Starlight's redemption was an example of Twilight LISTENING to the problem, understanding why someone would behave poorly and instead of threatening punishment, tried to show them a better way. Throwing Starlight in prison or something would have just been throwing away her talents and potential. It also would have been more or less being cold and uncaring of a person's circumstances. In real life a lot of people who commit crimes are put in situations where their choices are limited.

 

I think that by doing this, they are shedding light on a problem we as a society have had for years: the lack of giving a shit about people less fortunate than us. If someone is in a worse situation than we are, and they do something "bad" we just turn a blind eye and let the prison system handle that. We don't think twice about helping that person learn the error of their ways or give them opportunities when they get out of prison so that they don't need to turn back to that life. We just assume the that if they end up back there it's their own fault.

 

It's a great thing that this is being addressed.

[Simon 4,557]

 

 

Luna, Starlight, and Discord were all offered friendship immediagtely, with no penance required from them.

 

Again, that's why it's so important to understand why you're punishing someone. Why do we need penance?

 

Penance is by its very definition, retributive. It's a punishment that only exists to cause them pain, because they caused pain to others. It's a very human thing to want but it serves no realistic purpose. In modern day society, we don't - or at least we aren't supposed to - use penance as a measuring for punishment for criminals. It's not about giving them punishment they deserve, it's about preventing future crimes. Prison isn't to hurt someone, it's to keep them in a place where they can't hurt others until such a time we believe it is no longer just to confine them compared to their crime or that we believe it is no longer necessary due to them changing.

 

In a society like Equestria, penance would serve no purpose so long as there is reason to believe the rehabilitation is genuine. In Discord's case, that proved to not really be 100% the case until after Tirek, and that's also a great lesson - sometimes people don't change as quickly as we think. But you know what? Someone changing for the better is worth the risk.

[Concerned Bystander 2,902]

 

 

Penance is by its very definition, retributive. It's a punishment that only exists to cause them pain, because they caused pain to others. It's a very human thing to want but it serves no realistic purpose.

 

Penance does not have to be retributive.  On the contrary, in some cases, confronting ones own actions, and seeking to make atonement or reparation for those actions can help in the rehabilitation process, especially if done by choice and by the perpetrator's own free will.

[Guest]

I just want to say to @@Simon, here that I am glad that someone is bringing this up.

 

I grew up in a relatively poor neighborhood and when I got older and moved out of home, I had to live in a poorer area. Crime was rampant, and many people would call it  the "ghetto" or the projects or what have you. Crack houses were common, people got stabbed in front of the Burger King now and then, and theft was so common that the police generally didn't have much ability to do anything.

 

People outside of the ghetto though looked upon it like it was a matter of people just "didn't care enough" to get out of the ghetto. That if they really wanted out they would just get a job and work at it. But the truth was: there were no jobs in the ghetto. Not any you  could afford to get out on. To get out, you needed a lot of stuff to get to where you could pass an interview for a good job, like a car, a suit, a resume, schooling, etc. All of which wasn't available to you without cash in your pocket. A lot of people I knew sold drugs to pay rent, and many sold them and stole to save up so they could go to school to get OUT of the ghetto.

 

But when they'd get caught they'd just be thrown in jail and the problem would be considered "solved" by those outside of the ghetto. No one considers WHY people commit crimes. Not every person commits a crime because they are a bad person. Many people have even killed other people for reasons that if you examined them make more sense than just "they're evil". 

 

This is a problem that has existed for so long in the world, but everyone just listens to what the criminal justice system says and doesn't consider the HUMAN aspect of it. When you look at the people, when you listen to their stories, you start to realize that just locking people up and throwing away the key doesn't really solve the problem, it's just an excuse to ignore it. It's how we feel "safer". It creates the illusion that all criminals are just bad people and so long as we lock them up, everything is fine and good.

 

I'm glad that someone, especially someone with education in the criminal justice system, is bringing attention to this problem.

 

Thank you. From me, and all the unfortunate souls who have had to live the struggle, who have had the rest of society look down upon them and forget about them.

 

I am GLAD MLP is tackling this issue.

[Simon 4,557]

 

 

Penance does not have to be retributive.  On the contrary, in some cases, confronting ones own actions, and seeking to make atonement or reparation for those actions can help in the rehabilitation process, especially if done by choice and by the perpetrator's own free will.

 

Penance probably isn't the right word for this conversation to be honest. Penance speaking from a strict definition is self-inflicted, and while we see an excellent example of that happening with Luna with the Tantabus, it's not something you'd necessarily expect to have happen in most or all cases, certainly not something necessary. That's something we do to ourselves.

 

Rehabilitation in and of itself *is* a form of 'punishment'. It just doesn't have the retributive taste that makes us feel they got what they deserved. Instead, it responds to a crime in whatever way best creates the likelihood of them reforming, whether that's confining them to the moon or inviting them to a birthday party. There's no need for someone to suffer so long as the rehabilitation is successful.

[Scootalove 10,689]

Couldn't have agreed more with this, it's really better to test a villain's fortitude if they were to be reformed.

[Simon 4,557]

 

 

This is a problem that has existed for so long in the world, but everyone just listens to what the criminal justice system says and doesn't consider the HUMAN aspect of it. When you look at the people, when you listen to their stories, you start to realize that just locking people up and throwing away the key doesn't really solve the problem, it's just an excuse to ignore it. It's how we feel "safer". It creates the illusion that all criminals are just bad people and so long as we lock them up, everything is fine and good.

 

In an idyllic society, the question of why would be something people would genuinely ask before punishing someone. There are a lot of people who care in the criminal justice system, but the system is so poorly designed and overloaded that it doesn't really permit people to care like they want to - that's the big reason I'm working towards teaching criminal justice to others instead of actually practicing law right now like I planned. I wasn't about to work in a system where I knew I couldn't do good.

 

That's why I love so much that MLP isn't falling into the normal traps of how we like to handle villains. I know the staff probably aren't sitting down with criminal justice textbooks and theorizing about justifications for punishments at this level, but they are trying to teach a lesson of forgiveness and reform which is invaluable for our future generations to be taught.

I don't know if I'll ever see the day where rehabilitation and understanding are forefront attitudes in the criminal justice system, but the fact that it's being taught to our youth on a show like MLP gives me some hope that we'll reach that point.

[Koukatsu 5,899]

Simon, you suck, you killer of joy. But this is a well written op, that I thoroughly agree with. Good on ye.

[Music Chart Fan 819]

The original post brings up interesting points about forms of punishment and to what extent those are effective or desirable, with the show seeming to illustrate how an inclination toward rehabilitation would look. One perspective that I would like to see what @Simon or anyone else thinks about is that a (if not the) primary component of justice should be restitution - that is, victims of crimes should be able, within certain limits, to demand compensation from the criminals for the losses, damages, and/or injuries as a result of those crimes. (And to be clear, victims of crimes wouldn't be required to demand full restitution; they could be magnanimous and waive part or all of the compensation they might be legally entitled to receive.) I don't know, I suppose restitution could fall under "retributive punishment", but it doesn't seem unreasonable, nor does it seem that it has to be based on revenge. And I can think of some cases in the show where an apparent lack of restitution could be cause for moral outrage, or where a lack of attempt to make restitution itself caused problems.

For example, in "Tanks for the Memories", Rainbow Dash undoes the work of the other ponies to bring on winter in several instances, and more egregiously, sabotages the Cloudsdale winter lab and causes a "winter bomb" to go off on Ponyville. In this case, Rainbow Dash caused clear property damage to the Cloudsdale winter lab, and caused other ponies to have to re-do some of the work that they did. And yet, we see no indication in the episode that Rainbow Dash made restitution for this property damage and lost work. Somebody would have to pay for repairing or replacing the damages to the Cloudsdale winter lab, and if making weather is a government service, then that "someone" is the citizens of Equestria. Similarly, somebody has to pay for re-doing the weather work, either the ponies themselves (if they aren't being paid to re-do that work) or their employer (if they are being paid to re-do that work), which, again, might be the citizens of Equestria. Would it not be just for Rainbow Dash to have to pay for these things, rather than the ponies doing the work or the citizens of Equestria, since Rainbow Dash is directly responsible for the damage? Yet, as mentioned earlier, we see no indication in the episode that Rainbow Dash did so.

To give another example, in "Twilight's Kingdom", Tirek clearly causes property damage when rampaging around and fighting Twilight - most obviously, the destruction of the Golden Oak Library and whatever was inside it, including the collection of books. And yet, at the end of the episode, Tirek is simply locked back away in Tartarus, with no indication that the victims of property damage were able to receive restitution from Tirek. In an incredible coincidence, the Tree of Harmony sprang the Castle of Friendship from the ground, thus providing Twilight with a new place to live at no monetary cost. But what about all of the destroyed books, furniture, any of Twilight's and Spike's personal belongings, etc.? If the Golden Oak Library was a public library, then don't the citizens of Ponyville (or whoever paid for the creation of the library) have the right to demand compensation from Tirek for the destruction of the books and other contents of the library? Wouldn't Twilight and Spike have the right to demand compensation from Tirek for, at least, the destruction of any of their personal belongings in the library? Yet all we see in the episode is Tirek being locked away again in Tartarus, as though that's all that's necessary for justice to be served.

We also see a seeming lack of attempt to make restitution cause problems in "Do Princesses Dream of Magic Sheep?". In that episode, Luna believes that Equestria, and the Mane Six in particular, have suffered because of the evil she caused as Nightmare Moon, and consequently, she created the Tantabus to punish herself. Of course, Luna's doing this then causes its own problems and threatens Equestria. But, rather than attempting to punish herself with the Tantabus, justice might have been better served if Luna had simply gone to the victims of her actions as Nightmare Moon and asked them what further restitution they would like her to make. From what we've seen, Celestia, the Mane Six, and perhaps even the citizens of Equestria in general have forgiven her for her transgressions as Nightmare Moon, and likely would not have demanded any further restitution from her. (Plus, as I pointed out at the time, Luna as Nightmare Moon arguably didn't cause all that much suffering for the Mane Six or the citizens of Equestria in general, anyway.) In that case, there would be no need for Luna to punish herself on others' behalf by creating the Tantabus, and all of the problems that the Tantabus created might have been avoided entirely.

Finally, some of the villain reform cases mostly dodge the issue of restitution by having no obvious lasting damage as a result of the villains' actions. For example, Discord's creating chaos in "The Return of Harmony" and Starlight Glimmer's attempts to alter the course of Equestrian history in "The Cutie Remark" didn't seem ultimately to create much damage, other than perhaps temporary trauma.

So, if @Simon or anyone else reads this and would like to respond, I would be interested in what they think. Could restitution be a greater part of the moral message of the show? While the right to restitution (arguably) should be pursued regardless, could it be successfully integrated into rehabilitation? Thanks!

[Simon 4,557]

 

 

that is, victims of crimes should be able, within certain limits, to demand compensation from the criminals for the losses, damages, and/or injuries as a result of those crimes.

 

Restitution is the weird step-child of punishments. It is largely retributive on its face, though as many retributive punishments do, it has some utilitarian elements - for example, knowing if you're caught means you will have to pay back monetary damages from the loss helps to disincentivize stealing acting as a deterrent.

 

Frankly though, that's more of a civil component that we sometimes blend into the criminal trial purely for the sake of expediency. There will always be a need to repay actual monetary losses from crime, so lumping this into the criminal trial expedites the process in a meaningful way. Larger monetary disputes that aren't as clear cut as an actual financial loss such as for loss of life are best handled in a civil setting post-conviction.

 

That's the real-world answer. As for the pony examples you mentioned, I go back to the notion of MLP being an idyllic society. An important trope in media portraying idyllic societies is the notion of community. The idea that when bad stuff happens, the community simply gets together and fixes the damage together, whatever that damage may be. I think the society focus for Equestria is far less on monetary concerns and far more on banding together to fix wrongs. When a society is able to progress to the point that its citizens no longer have to worry about recovering monetary losses from things like this, that's a pretty magical attitude. I'd also point out that there likely is minimal monetary losses in most of these instances due to Equestrian magic.

 

As non-magical humans, we think in terms of broke = expense. But when you have magical powers that let you un-break a wooden wheel on a taxi, for instance, suddenly it becomes much more about labor than money. So as soon as you have that society willing to band together and work to fix things, the notion of it being necessary to recoup monetary losses is significantly lessened.

 

In terms of the moral of the show - I'm glad they're not showing reparations or restitution in the show. While I do think it's a great lesson to kids that you need to fix damage you cause, we live in a sue-happy society and frankly that's not an attitude we need to pass on from generation to generation. I'd much rather have fixing mistakes be taught in ways like it was with Diamond Tiara where she joined with her new friends to build the playground than to show Rainbow Dash being forced to work at a Hayburger stand to cover the 300,000 bits in property damage she was assessed with

 

So while in our real world where we don't have magic unicorn powers it probably will be necessary to have a civil court system and some sort of restitution option for those who need it, I think it's a wonderful thing when we're able to not have that as a focus in MLP.

[Music Chart Fan 819]

@@Simon, you bring up some interesting things to think about!

 

I suppose unicorn magic can do some things that we humans can't, but at the same time, Equestria doesn't look to be a total post-scarcity economy. There's still money and a price system, and, to my recollection, none of the characters (except Discord, maybe) can materialize goods out of nothing. And viewers may not be able to relate to a show taking place in a total post-scarcity economy, anyway.

 

I hadn't thought about the show in terms of a community that just fixes things and solves problems without scrupulous attention to cost, as you described. It's true that, ideally, with close family and friends, we would try not to take a legalistic approach where we demand restitution for every little wrong that they commit, keep close track of the favors we do for each other and make sure they're perfectly even, etc. And so maybe the show is attempting to illustrate that dynamic, but (sometimes) on a larger scale. I probably won't be able to stop noticing and thinking about practical issues with events on the show and the ways that they wouldn't work out in real life, but that's still an interesting perspective to try to keep in mind.

 

Thanks for the reply, and for providing some food for thought!

[cider float 2,538]

 

 

Nightmare Moon was controlled by an extrinsic force created by her own emotions, once she was removed from that it made sense that she would be instantaneously open to reform.

 

Trixie was never really a villain, she just had a moment of wanting revenge for Twilight showing her up. When she went a step too far and Twilight freed her from the Alicorn Amulet, she, again, had no reason not to reform to the degree she did. And the newest episode showed she still hadn't been 100% 'reformed', she just wasn't under the control of an evil mind control necklace

 

Diamond Tiara spent years trying to live up to the standards of her parents, and her reform episode took place when she hit rock bottom. She didn't like or understand her cutie mark, and the CMC showed her a bit of kindness and understanding where her mother only showed contempt. That's more than enough for a child to change their ways. - Great example of this in real life: one of my best friends in elementary school was a kid who picked on me relentlessly for the first half of the year. It finally blew up when I tried to help him up in the playground after he fell, and he responded by beating me up to look like he didn't need my help. After he apologized a few days later, the two of us became genuine friends. Sometimes all it takes for a child to reform is being forgiven by someone they think can't forgive them.

 

Starlight Glimmer never saw herself as a villain. She made a lot of bad choices because of her past, but she never had an intention to hurt someone or cause harm. She genuinely believed the world would be better in total equality without cutie marks or unique talents. The show makes it painfully obvious that she had no idea what her time travel was doing to Equestria... she was not living through or seeing the results, only causing the changes in the past. So when Twilight showed her what was happening, she initially went through denial, which is a completely normal reaction, then once she started to admit to herself that her actions truly were hurting others, she stopped herself.

 

The point? Fast transitions in a character's behaviors don't mean they're unrealistic or badly written. There's usually a turning point... a tiny brief moment where all our experiences tell us - alright it's time to make a change right now. The fact that the show does not show us every single event in their lives that may have influenced that turning point is only because the show can only tell so much, so instead they show us the last piece of the puzzle - the big event that pushed the character over the edge into realizing they need to make a change.

 

I'll also mention that there have only been a handful of characters that are genuinely evil for the sake of being evil - Discord, Sombra, Tirek, and maybe Chrysalis, the only one who was reformed being the one you said was fine. All of the other characters who were 'reformed' are people whose motives were such that it made perfect sense that they'd be open to reform at some point. As long as a character is not hurting people purely because they want to cause pain on a broad scale, there's no reason to believe they can't be reformed.

 

Or it's just lazy writing on moments that should be taken more seriously. Instead it gleans on the "it's a children's show" when it feels lazy to do so. I'd rather they put more thought in those reformations rather than their subtle pandering to the fandom and easter eggs which is where they put more thought too sadly.

[WafflesFan 1]

It's all wonderful until you remember Troubleshoes, who was the only pony, who ended up in a jail. And then he had to face the charges for damage he accidentaly caused. Except for the last time, when CMC did it for him. 

Forgiveness for some, but not for all -- that's what the show implies. I don't remember Trixie facing charges for the damage she caused, even if under the influence of the Amulet (Troubleshoes didn't mean it, as well). I don't remember Dash facing any charges. 

So, we either forgive everyone, or punish everyone. The current situation with Troubleshoes is called double standarts.

[Aurora Glimmer 494]

I think the big problem with Starlight Glimmer was not the fact she was redeemed, but how she was redeemed. Instead of taking a gradualist approach and saving her redemption (and her backstory, for that matter) for Season 6 where it could be expanded upon and given some weight, the writers threw together a montage of her bonding with the Mane Six and making amends with the Equal Four. Each of those scenes (Starlight and Pinkie, Starlight and Rarity, Starlight and Applejack, Starlight and Fluttershy, Starlight and Twilight, Starlight and the Equal Four) could've been an entire episode. If they'd gone that route, I don't think we'd be debating whether or not Starlight Glimmer deserved to be forgiven.

[Simon 4,557]

Or it's just lazy writing on moments that should be taken more seriously. Instead it gleans on the "it's a children's show" when it feels lazy to do so. I'd rather they put more thought in those reformations rather than their subtle pandering to the fandom and easter eggs which is where they put more thought too sadly.

 

 

I think the big problem with Starlight Glimmer was not the fact she was redeemed, but how she was redeemed. Instead of taking a gradualist approach and saving her redemption (and her backstory, for that matter) for Season 6 where it could be expanded upon and given some weight, the writers threw together a montage of her bonding with the Mane Six and making amends with the Equal Four. Each of those scenes (Starlight and Pinkie, Starlight and Rarity, Starlight and Applejack, Starlight and Fluttershy, Starlight and Twilight, Starlight and the Equal Four) could've been an entire episode. If they'd gone that route, I don't think we'd be debating whether or not Starlight Glimmer deserved to be forgiven.

 

Like I said in the OP, whether the stories themselves were written well is a subjective thing. To me they were, to another they weren't and that's fine. Some people don't like the show at all... our taste in art is always going to be subjective.

 

The main point I'm trying to address is those people who dislike the redemption stories altogether. I can totally agree that the ending montage kind of sucked and would have been better spent time other places, but the fact that the show is bothering to allow villains to reform instead of just permanently casting them into bad-guy land, and moreover the fact that they're willing to take a villain and bring them in as a full-on protagonist in future seasons is awesome to me. Whether a particular moment is written well is something far too subjective to really discuss as a right/wrong thing.

 

 

 

It's all wonderful until you remember Troubleshoes, who was the only pony, who ended up in a jail. And then he had to face the charges for damage he accidentaly caused. Except for the last time, when CMC did it for him. 

 

I absolutely agree, but I think that's also one of the strengths in the show. You can't show the right way to respond to something as a moral lesson unless you show the wrong way first. They showed the city not taking the time to listen to his point of view and immediately locking him up, and then the show made it clear that those people were in the wrong for doing so. No different than the show having one of the mane 6 make a bad choice to teach a moral about their mistakes.

 

Had the show simply ended with him sitting in a jail for something he didn't do, then I'd agree they screwed up, but that's simply not what happened.

[user1342342 143]

 

 

Like I said in the OP, whether the stories themselves were written well is a subjective thing.

 

That's a whole load of nonsense. Whether you like it is subjective, but good storytelling is the result of objective standards. Standards that follow reason, standards that are well thought out. Even a simple story can be compelling and thought provoking. Good writers don't just make up random crap and force things in, that's insulting to people's intelligence, hence why we have these standards.

 

If writers had the mindset that storytelling was "subjective", they wouldn't bother trying to improve their craft because "I like it this way, and it's all subjective". No. That's not how it works.

 

They way Starlight was reformed is the furthest thing from "genius" you can possibly be.

[Zamasu 20]

That's a whole load of nonsense. Whether you like it is subjective, but good storytelling is the result of objective standards. Standards that follow reason, standards that are well thought out. Even a simple story can be compelling and thought provoking. Good writers don't just make up random crap and force things in, that's insulting to people's intelligence, hence why we have these standards.

 

If writers had the mindset that storytelling was "subjective", they wouldn't bother trying to improve their craft because "I like it this way, and it's all subjective". No. That's not how it works.

 

They way Starlight was reformed is the furthest thing from "genius" you can possibly be.

Standards that arent factual, and therefore not objective.

Learn what the term "objective" means before using it.

[user1342342 143]

Standards that arent factual, and therefore not objective.

Learn what the term "objective" means before using it.

 

It's factual that these standards developed for the purpose of telling a good story, its a fact that these standards produce results, its a fact that writers keep these standards in mind for that very reason.