"Cartoony" Games & Lackluster Visuals

[K.Rool Addict 718]

Ok, to make my point I would like to present a visual example instead of writing a huge daunting wall of text first, ok? xD Just watch a good 30-ish seconds of each linked video, if you will.

Take a look at this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gh-aOHRjBug&feature=youtu.be&t=5m58s

Then compare to this: https://youtu.be/Z4FPodGR82U?t=2m

 

^Is it just me, or does a freaking Ps2 game, with slightly higher res textures and higher overall native resolution look WAY better in contrast to a "modern day" cartoony styled game like Yooka-Laylee? I'm not trying to downplay the latter game right now, as it looks really fun, but I find it mind boggling how we have come so far in graphical technological advancement, yet a nearly 20 year old game looks more appealing to the eye than something current... I just find it both astonishing and disturbing at the same time.

The colors, the character models, the environments: they all just POP out and look jaw-droppingly amazing on Kingdom Hearts, but with Yooka-Laylee, there is this thick muddy-looking "HAZE" pervading the entirity of the world. And this type of thing isn't exclusive to merely Yooka-Laylee either. Just look at other cartoony "colorful" games like Legend of Zelda BoTW and Ratchet& Clank (ps4). These games also have this weird haziness that mutes certain colors and creates an overall unattractive aesthetic which clashes horribly with the cartoony assets. To my knowledge, these atmospheric particle effects require not only more CPU/GPU performance to pull off at a decent frame-rate, but also require significant time and effort on the developers part in order to properly implement i the game. Why would these people put effort into making the game look WORSE, when by removing these elements, colors would look crisp and clear, and just plain orgasmic to the eyes? I understand many devs will add hazy effects like this to make the game #1 look more realistic, or #2 hide graphical imperfections like low poly character models or lower than ideal draw distances, among other things. But if an old ass game like Kingdom Hearts proves anything, its that these concerns are completely in vain for cartoony games, as the lack of these graphical effects seems to ENHANCE to the look instead of detract from it. 

 

 

Edited April 18, 2017 by K.Rool Addict

[Megas 27,390]

1) Kingdom Hearts is an upscale of a PS2 game, on top of that, it's one that isn't very demanding, so they can afford to make them look nicer

2) Only people really anal about visuals is gonna be bothered by seemingly minor graphical imperfections

[K.Rool Addict 718]

3 minutes ago, Whompy Whomperson said:

1) Kingdom Hearts is an upscale of a PS2 game, on top of that, it's one that isn't very demanding, so they can afford to make them look nicer

^Thats the whole point. With a freakin' Ps2 game they are able to pull off more pleasant, vibrant visuals than on games made for current gen hardware. It's pathetic to see technological advancement regressing the level of graphical appeal in a game.

 

5 minutes ago, Whompy Whomperson said:

2) Only people really anal about visuals is gonna be bothered by seemingly minor graphical imperfections

^I just can't find a game to be properly immersive if it looks worse than games I played over 10 years ago. This is one of the reasons I take so much issue with Nintendo's reluctance to properly innovate in the graphical department. If you ask me, Super Mario Sunshine looks significantly better than any 1st party Nintendo game released since! The water effects, heat distortion effects, beautiful environments brimming with crisp vivid colors... thats what I crave, not half assed, low poly character models with a crappy bloom filter slapped on (see 3-D World). Even their newest foray into the Mario series, Super Mario Odyssey, disappoints greatly in terms of visuals. There are certain elements I like: the water effects and little, buoyant animations on Mario's hat/nose come to mind. But, overall, it looks like an early Xbox 360 release.... in 2017 no less!

I understand, graphics do not make the game good automatically. Games like Rise:Son of Rome and The Order 1886 are great examples of such. They astonish the player with incredible graphical spectacle seemingly to distract from the lackluster gameplay within. But if you have a game that already has awesome gameplay, better graphics can only add to your enjoyment.

[SugarCoatxMarblePie 701]

Maybe graphics take a ton of programming, I would have to google it but likely won't. Like, when the singularity happens, games are not going to easily fill out something like 500TBs of space. Look to indie games for example, some games cost more with less storage on disk even if released at the same time, because they put more time into their style or mechanical development etc. Depends on marketing really, and there is eventually a peak of graphical improvements humans can see til they get bionic eyes or something.

[Floofie 799]

I think this is a subjective thing, honestly. The lack of modern graphical effects on Kingdom Hearts certainly makes it look more crisp and vibrant, but it's still an upscaled PS2 game. The low geometry and the textures just aren't as detailed as modern games. Yooka-Layle, on the other hand, actually doesn't look as good as it could look on the video you linked because it's the console version, capped at 30fps. I found a video showcasing PC gameplay of Yooka-Laylee at max settings, and it (in my opinion) looks beautiful.

I can certainly see where you're coming from, but I think whether someone prefers the clean, colorful look of KH 1.5 versus the more detailed, "fancy" look of Yooka-Laylee comes down to personal preference.

 

[K.Rool Addict 718]

14 minutes ago, Sir Floof said:

I think whether someone prefers the clean, colorful look of KH 1.5 versus the more detailed, "fancy" look of Yooka-Laylee comes down to personal preference.

Why can't we have BOTH "clean, colorful" AND "detailed" though? I don't understand why it is one or the other. As you said earlier in your post:

"The low geometry and the textures just aren't as detailed as modern games."

^Why not use the extra horsepower available on current gen consoles/ PC to increase poly count, texture res, etc? That would be far preferable to slapping blurry atmospheric lighting effects on everything which take away from the cartoony aesthetic

 

[K.Rool Addict 718]

23 minutes ago, Sir Floof said:

Yooka-Layle, on the other hand, actually doesn't look as good as it could look on the video you linked because it's the console version, capped at 30fps. I found a video showcasing PC gameplay of Yooka-Laylee at max settings, and it (in my opinion) looks beautiful.

This is from the same video you linked: https://youtu.be/JaUQ5VfswLw?t=32m40s

^It seems certain stages have more of the effect i am talking about than others. It is nice to see not all the stages suffering from this, but that one starting world (not the hub world) is the best example of that blurry, hazy atmospheric lighting.  While it is less prominent in other stages, it is definitely still present, although the hub zone looks pretty damn good.

Edited April 18, 2017 by K.Rool Addict

[Floofie 799]

23 hours ago, K.Rool Addict said:

Why can't we have BOTH "clean, colorful" AND "detailed" though? I don't understand why it is one or the other.

"Detailed" isn't a very good word for it, actually. What I was referring to was the "haze" that Yooka-Laylee has, which Kingdom Hearts doesn't, as you described. Therefore, it's one or the other, at least in this case.

23 hours ago, K.Rool Addict said:

"The low geometry and the textures just aren't as detailed as modern games."

^Why not use the extra horsepower available on current gen consoles/ PC to increase poly count, texture res, etc? That would be far preferable to slapping blurry atmospheric lighting effects on everything which take away from the cartoony aesthetic

I don't get what you're trying to say here. Yooka-Laylee is already using the power of current gen consoles to have good poly counts and high texture res. I was talking about Kingdom Hearts.

I might have worded my post poorly, but the point I was trying to make is that the hazy atmospheric lighting featured in Yooka-Laylee doesn't look as bad as you think it does, and I don't believe it's slapped on to mask bad graphics. The graphics in Yooka-Laylee are good, and the fact that you dislike how Yooka-Laylee looks compared to Kingdom Hearts is a matter of opinion, and not because a game made decades ago looks better than a game made today.

Besides, "looks better" is a subjective thing anyway. I could say that The Binding of Isaac is the best looking indie game, while someone else could say that its Shovel Knight, and neither of us would be wrong, we would just have differing opinions.

[cmarston1 5,956]

Yeah, this just reminded me why I don't like a lot of video game conversations.

This whole debate on graphics is not something I have found to be very important in the grand scheme of things.

[K.Rool Addict 718]

5 hours ago, cmarston1 said:

Yeah, this just reminded me why I don't like a lot of video game conversations.

This whole debate on graphics is not something I have found to be very important in the grand scheme of things.

Have you ever tried going back playing games like Grand Theft Auto San Andreas or Vice City on the original hardware? Back in the day, the graphics looked perfectly fine, and even impressed in some areas. Nowadays, most people, including myself, will get severe eyestrain merely from playing the game as the graphics are so muddy, dark, dingy, and overall pixelated that you can hardly focus on anything ingame.

I imagine, as technology continues to progress, we will eventually get to the point where many current gen games induce similar reactions. This is not to say all games' graphics age badly. NES games with super low resolution sprites and so on are still perfectly aesthetically presentable, and some SNES games showcase better sprite work than even modern day games. As we move forward towards the introduction of polygon based visuals in systems like N64 and PS1, you can see a large decrease in overall graphical appeal (in the sense that the visuals did not age particularly well). However, many of these games (SM 64, Banjo-Kazooie, Spyro, Crash Bandicoot, etc) have bright, colorful, and overall pleasant graphic design. This is the main reason why the games still look tolerable and don't generally cause eyestrain or headaches.

Now you may draw paralleles between this type of game and Yooka-Laylee's "bright colorful" visuals, but you have to understand that those old games did not incorporate effects like the ones I am complaining about. They were clear and crisp despite being very low resolution. Yooka-Laylee (on consoles) runs at a full 1080p, HOWEVER it uses these atmospheric effects which make the overall presentation muddy/ blurry and undermine the colorful, vibrant aesthetic hiding underneath. It seems like a counterproductive design decision, in an attempt to make the game "more realistic" with these atmospheric hazy effects but it merely deafets the purpose and makes the game look more dated instead of visually pleasing. This is of course my opinion, but I can say with utmost certainty that these graphical effects not only look subpar in comparison to other current gen games, but they will also age extremely poorly.

 

On April 18, 2017 at 10:47 PM, Sir Floof said:

I don't get what you're trying to say here. Yooka-Laylee is already using the power of current gen consoles to have good poly counts and high texture res. I was talking about Kingdom Hearts.

I might have worded my post poorly, but the point I was trying to make is that the hazy atmospheric lighting featured in Yooka-Laylee doesn't look as bad as you think it does, and I don't believe it's slapped on to mask bad graphics. The graphics in Yooka-Laylee are good, and the fact that you dislike how Yooka-Laylee looks compared to Kingdom Hearts is a matter of opinion, and not because a game made decades ago looks better than a game made today.

 

What I'm saying is, instead of focusing on adding these "hazy" atmospheric effects, why not put all the resources into: higher poly character models, higher resolution textures, higher environmental detail, etc. It is clear that these effects use up some of the hardware's power and design team's resources, so why not put that time and effort into another, more aesthetically pleasing facet of the game's visuals? Please take the time to read my above^ response to cmarston, as I think I did a fairly decent job elaborating on many of my complaints.

Kingdom Hearts has a striking visual aesthetic, with bright vibrant visuals and character models that still seem to hold up today fairly well. Imagine if the developers put ALL their effort into making the visual aspect of Kingdom Hearts as good as a Ps4/Xbox One could handle, WITHOUT putting in these muddy hazy atmospheric effects? The potential here is jaw-dropping. Yet, when you look at trailers for Kingdom Hearts 3, it's apparent that their design philosophy was in a different place:

^This video is a very good example as it shows in the opening cinematic (aka the beach scene) how the game could have looked had they not opted for these effects. 

 

On April 18, 2017 at 10:47 PM, Sir Floof said:

Besides, "looks better" is a subjective thing anyway. I could say that The Binding of Isaac is the best looking indie game, while someone else could say that its Shovel Knight, and neither of us would be wrong, we would just have differing opinions.

 

This I can certainly not dispute. One man's trash is another man's treasure, and even within the videogame space no two gamers will have preferences for visuals that align with each others' completely. I'm sure most people can agree that games like Horizon Zero Dawn, Uncharted 4, among others, impress to an extremely high degree considering the lackluster performance of the system they were developed for. I simply long for a day when cartoony games (aka my favorite visual style of games) can reach the lofty heights of graphical mastery exhibited in games like those two aforementioned titles...

Ratchet&Clank for the Ps4 was certainly a step in the right direction; emphasizing amazingly high poly counts, immaculate animations among other things, but it does not quite make up for the inclusion of this hazy visual effect everyone seems to be obsessed with in the videogame development community -.-

[Floofie 799]

On 4/20/2017 at 7:04 PM, K.Rool Addict said:

hat I'm saying is, instead of focusing on adding these "hazy" atmospheric effects, why not put all the resources into: higher poly character models, higher resolution textures, higher environmental detail, etc. It is clear that these effects use up some of the hardware's power and design team's resources, so why not put that time and effort into another, more aesthetically pleasing facet of the game's visuals? Please take the time to read my above^ response to cmarston, as I think I did a fairly decent job elaborating on many of my complaints.

Kingdom Hearts has a striking visual aesthetic, with bright vibrant visuals and character models that still seem to hold up today fairly well. Imagine if the developers put ALL their effort into making the visual aspect of Kingdom Hearts as good as a Ps4/Xbox One could handle, WITHOUT putting in these muddy hazy atmospheric effects? The potential here is jaw-dropping. Yet, when you look at trailers for Kingdom Hearts 3, it's apparent that their design philosophy was in a different place:

That's a very good point. But I wonder, how many resources does the effect take up anyway? If the effect is lightweight and the developers decide it makes the game look better, then from their perspective, there's no reason why they shouldn't add it. Not in the short-term, at least.

From what I gather from the above post, what you're most concerned about is the long term: whether many years from now, these games' visuals will have aged poorly, and will look dated and ugly due to the blurry hazy effect. That is something I honestly don't know. We'll just have to wait and see if these games look presentable in the future.

But, in the context of video games in 2017, I don't mind the haze effect as much as you do. That's not to say you're wrong for disliking it, it's just my opinion.

 

On 4/20/2017 at 0:38 PM, cmarston1 said:

Yeah, this just reminded me why I don't like a lot of video game conversations.

This whole debate on graphics is not something I have found to be very important in the grand scheme of things.

Graphics are important, just not as much as gameplay.

[K.Rool Addict 718]

8 minutes ago, Sir Floof said:

how many resources does the effect take up anyway? If the effect is lightweight and the developers decide it makes the game look better, then from their perspective, there's no reason why they shouldn't add it. Not in the short-term, at least.

I'm pretty sure those effects take a hella lot of power to run properly. I used to have a gaming laptop a few years back, and toggling between effects like this made a huge difference with the framerate. As far as I remember, it's almost as taxing as MSAA.

9 minutes ago, Sir Floof said:

Graphics are important, just not as much as gameplay.

^Can't agree enough there. Graphics don't make a game automatically good, but they can enhance your overall enjoyment if the game is good. Just like a good musical score enhances the experience. 

Imo, Gameplay >> Graphics >> Music >> Story.

Unless, ofc the game is an RPG, in which case,

Gameplay >> Story >> Graphics = Music

[Floofie 799]

Just now, K.Rool Addict said:

I'm pretty sure those effects take a hella lot of power to run properly. I used to have a gaming laptop a few years back, and toggling between effects like this made a huge difference with the framerate. As far as I remember, it's almost as taxing as MSAA.

Oh yeah, that does make a big framerate difference. I'm pretty sure I've played PC games with those kinds of effects before.

If that's the case, then I suppose the only reason devs would put those resources into atmospheric haze effects is simply because they think it looks better. Whether it looks better or not is subjective, of course, but...

17 minutes ago, Sir Floof said:

what you're most concerned about is the long term: whether many years from now, these games' visuals will have aged poorly, and will look dated and ugly due to the blurry hazy effect.

...this is somewhat worrying. I'm saying "somewhat" because on PC, mods can make a game look better, but consoles don't have that option.

Then again, most (if not all) preservation of old games takes place on PC, and very few people are gonna want to play PS4/XBOne games in 10~20 years anyway, so maybe it's not that big of a problem.

10 minutes ago, K.Rool Addict said:

Imo, Gameplay >> Graphics >> Music >> Story.

Unless, ofc the game is an RPG, in which case,

Gameplay >> Story >> Graphics = Music

I completely agree.

[K.Rool Addict 718]

17 minutes ago, Sir Floof said:

...this is somewhat worrying. I'm saying "somewhat" because on PC, mods can make a game look better, but consoles don't have that option.

Then again, most (if not all) preservation of old games takes place on PC, and very few people are gonna want to play PS4/XBOne games in 10~20 years anyway, so maybe it's not that big of a problem.

Well, obviously for those using high end PCs, emulation is always an option. I'm sure you could force certain effects on and off, no? (forgive my ignorance as I am not particularly familiar with console emulation on PCs)

I know the CEMU emulator has been doing wonders for games like XenoBlade Chronicles X and Legend of Zelda Breath of the Wild, just not sure how much customization is available here.

Edited April 22, 2017 by K.Rool Addict

[Floofie 799]

Just now, K.Rool Addict said:

Well, obviously for those using high end PCs, emulation is always an option. I'm sure you could force certain effects on and off, no? (forgive my ignorance as I am not particularly familiar with console emulation on PCs)

I know the CEMU emulator has been doing wonder for games like ZenoBlade Chronicles X and Legend of Zelda Breath of the Wild, just not sure how much customization is available here.

I'm not familiar with console emulation either (the only games I've emulated are GBA and DS games), but I've watched my brother play BotW on CEMU, and it absolutely has being doing wonders. The amount of progress the CEMU devs have been making on running BotW is amazing. I've never used CEMU myself, so I wouldn't know if you can force effects like the haze that we've been talking about on or off, but my brother's been able to use 4K textures for BotW that someone made, so there's that.

By the way, emulation was the reason why I said most game preservation takes place on PC's. While emulators give you all the content in games, you'd still have to find the console and the disc/cartridge if you want to preserve everything.