Which would have been worse?

[TheUnknownPhantom5 69]

So we all know that in the Season 9 finale Grogar was reveled to have been Discord all along, and alot of people weren't happy about that. Well I want to share a scenerio, and I'd like you to tell me if it would have been better, or actually worse then what we got.

So let's start the scenerio. Now everything up until when the villians use Grogar's bell for the first time plays out exactly the same.

The first new scene would be of Discord senseing them using the bell, and going to check it out. Fluttershy would ask what he's doing, and he'd tell her that he fears something might be wrong, but not to worry as with his magic he can handel anything. Discord then arrives to see Grogar returning with the same artifact Discord came back with in the orignal version. The scene then plays out pratcilay idintcal to the orignal scene. The villans use the bell on Grogar, and succesfully drain him of his Magic

"You! After everything I've done for you how could you betray me"! Grogar says. To which Cozy Glow would respond with the "We're villans, duh". Line. Then they would blast Grogar again completley destroying him. Discord after seeing what they did would then reveal himself. He'd go into a speech about how they'll never get away with what they're planning, and how even though they have Grogar's power they are still no match for him as he gets ready to snap them all to Tartarus. However Discord looses his magic, and is force to retreat. He then returns and tells everyone what happened. 

After that everything else plays out exactly the same as it did in the orignal version with the only differance being that no one is mad at Discord.

So now tell me.

Would Grogar having been real only to get immediately taken out at the begining have been better or worse then him being Discord in disguse?

[Steve Piranha 29,429]

5 minutes ago, TheUnknownPhantom5 said:

 

So now tell me.

Would Grogar having been real only to get immediately taken out at the begining have been better or worse then him being Discord in disguse?

Definitely worse. That Grogar being real would make everything worse no matter the scenario 

1-Had he betrayed the trio, or not, the trio would be foreshadowed by Grogar at best. And they aren’t just mooks, they are three of the best and most popular FIM villains. Cozy Glow to a lesser degree maybe, but it would sit unwell for them to be shoved aside

2-Had the trio followed with the betrayal as they did with Discord in canon, Grogar would be the one foreshadowed in the end. 
 

in other words, despite how polemic Discord in disguise was, that was the best case scenario. We may not have gotten a real old MLP franchise villain fight meal, but we got the full course of three of the best villains team-up as the final villains

[Megas 27,742]

12 minutes ago, Steve Piranha said:

Definitely worse. That Grogar being real would make everything worse no matter the scenario 

1-Had he betrayed the trio, or not, the trio would be foreshadowed by Grogar at best. And they aren’t just mooks, they are three of the best and most popular FIM villains. Cozy Glow to a lesser degree maybe, but it would sit unwell for them to be shoved aside

2-Had the trio followed with the betrayal as they did with Discord in canon, Grogar would be the one foreshadowed in the end. 
 

in other words, despite how polemic Discord in disguise was, that was the best case scenario. We may not have gotten a real old MLP franchise villain fight meal, but we got the full course of three of the best villains team-up as the final villains

Or they could have just redid everything all together and tried something different. Baiting people with a popular old G1 villain was always a bad idea, the twist of him not even being real but something Discord made up because "lol I wanted to teach Twilight" was a slap in the face, and the idea of him being unceremoniously killed off wouldn't have been much better

[Dark Qiviut 22,444]

41 minutes ago, TheUnknownPhantom5 said:

Would Grogar having been real only to get immediately taken out at the begining have been better or worse then him being Discord in disguse?

It would've been significantly worse. It's one thing for Discord to be dumb enough to follow through his scheme. It's another for him to be real, only for his potential to be completely wasted before he ever got the chance. (At least WildBrain sprinkled clues of "Grogar" being Discord throughout, if you take a closer look.)

[Steve Piranha 29,429]

31 minutes ago, Megas said:

Or they could have just redid everything all together and tried something different. Baiting people with a popular old G1 villain was always a bad idea, the twist of him not even being real but something Discord made up because "lol I wanted to teach Twilight" was a slap in the face, and the idea of him being unceremoniously killed off wouldn't have been much better

Yeah, something I agree with with Discord’s reasons being stupid. Then again that wouldn’t be out of character 

another alternative would be Grogar going solo. That would be fine, but  personally, I was looking forward for the final villain to be an old villain instead of a new one since about mid S5 at the latest. 

[Misty Shadow 7,937]

4 hours ago, TheUnknownPhantom5 said:

So now tell me.

Would Grogar having been real only to get immediately taken out at the begining have been better or worse then him being Discord in disguse?

Worse, for sure. I want to stop talking about The Last Jedi as much as the next guy, but another infamous part of that movie that everyone hates is Snoke getting killed off too easily. I feel Grogar getting done away with like that would've pissed off fans EVEN MORE. Discord wouldn't get the kind of hate he gets now, yeah, but he's always gotten hate. His character being bastardized was just a symptom of a problem with the writing, and I think fans were more upset about the kind of writing done for the finale than they were upset about Discord. 

[Goat-kun 2,527]

We're reaching the levels of bad that shouldn't even be possible. Grogar is the arch nemesis of MLP and one should use him accordingly. Be bold. Buck the canon. If you're gonna rewrite, then rewrite everything.

[Steve Piranha 29,429]

53 minutes ago, Goat-kun said:

We're reaching the levels of bad that shouldn't even be possible. Grogar is the arch nemesis of MLP and one should use him accordingly. Be bold. Buck the canon. If you're gonna rewrite, then rewrite everything.

Nah, as a franchise as a whole, Tirek has a claim to the tittle as well, and in FIM the closest thing of an arch nemesis is more deserving for Chrysalis. She not only directly attacked Twi’s family, she’s also attacked a second time in-show canon, and getting away to fight another day. If I had to pick a single villain to be the endgame villain, she’s the definite choice. She was, and two buddies 

[EpicEnergy 23,222]

It's rather difficult to determine which of those two scenarios is worse since both aren't good in my opinion, I'd rather neither of them occur.

[Goat-kun 2,527]

19 hours ago, Steve Piranha said:

Nah, as a franchise as a whole, Tirek has a claim to the tittle as well, and in FIM the closest thing of an arch nemesis is more deserving for Chrysalis. She not only directly attacked Twi’s family, she’s also attacked a second time in-show canon, and getting away to fight another day. If I had to pick a single villain to be the endgame villain, she’s the definite choice. She was, and two buddies 

None of them represent the equalizing force against Harmony. Grogar from the story did. The biggest bad shouldn't be just your average enemy of a few little ponies.

[Steve Piranha 29,429]

42 minutes ago, Goat-kun said:

None of them represent the equalizing force against Harmony. Grogar from the story did. The biggest bad shouldn't be just your average enemy of a few little ponies.

I believe as a team, they did serve as a foul to the teamwork and companionship of the Mane 6. And I prefer that over some embodiment of the same. I prefer climatic conflicts to be more personal, over a more indifferent threat 

[Goat-kun 2,527]

On 2021-12-07 at 9:03 PM, Steve Piranha said:

I believe as a team, they did serve as a foul to the teamwork and companionship of the Mane 6. And I prefer that over some embodiment of the same. I prefer climatic conflicts to be more personal, over a more indifferent threat 

That is a bit irrelevant. If one uses Grogar, one gets the real one and develops him accordingly as the big bad that can terrify heroes and villains alike.  That's that. Yes, I know our glorious writers lean towards Sombreros and Dindu Nuffins, but that's their problem. We're speaking fanon canon here. You can still have all the grudge pillow fights you want. If Grogar gets out of his realm, you've already lost. For the most part, one could develop him to be the counterpart to Celestia, lending villains both his power and knowledge in exchange for servitude.

[abronymouse 5,555]

One thing I do not like about epic anime series is the episodic villain which is suddenly better than the much more built up villains in past episodes... for plot convenience in order to present an implausible challenge to the OP protagonists

Discord being Grogar dealt with that really well I thought. He was a villain who was there from S2 and leant an arc to series 9 that otherwise would have felt flat while also letting us experience the lovely bass of Doc Harris

 

 

[apple Lilly 213]

4 minutes ago, abrony-mouse said:

One thing I do not like about epic anime series is the episodic villain which is suddenly better than the much more built up villains in past episodes... for plot convenience in order to present an implausible challenge to the OP protagonists

Discord being Grogar dealt with that really well I thought. He was a villain who was there from S2 and leant an arc to series 9 that otherwise would have felt flat while also letting us experience the lovely bass of Doc Harris

 

 

ima go watch this

[Steve Piranha 29,429]

1 hour ago, Goat-kun said:

That is a bit irrelevant. If one uses Grogar, one gets the real one and develops him accordingly as the big bad that can terrify heroes and villains alike.  That's that. Yes, I know our glorious writers lean towards Sombreros and Dindu Nuffins, but that's their problem. We're speaking fanon canon here. You can still have all the grudge pillow fights you want. If Grogar gets out of his realm, you've already lost. For the most part, one could develop him to be the counterpart to Celestia, lending villains both his power and knowledge in exchange for servitude.

Problem is, they didn’t develop Cellie enough to make an arch nemesis that convincing. Not to mention that role belongs to the long passed Gusty. I think the Legion of Doom embodied most of the best villain tropes for the final battle. Nether choice than Grogar

[Goat-kun 2,527]

1 hour ago, Steve Piranha said:

Problem is, they didn’t develop Cellie enough to make an arch nemesis that convincing. Not to mention that role belongs to the long passed Gusty.

The development is on our glorious writers. I don't much care for the boundaries of their work. And as far as Gusty is concerned, she just played the role of Isildur, nothing more.

1 hour ago, Steve Piranha said:

I think the Legion of Doom embodied most of the best villain tropes for the final battle. Nether choice than Grogar

There are a lot of villain tropes out there, many far more suitable for MLP that the ones we've gotten as these shine better in a less age-restrictive show. Anyhow, we have Beastman, Evil-Lyn, and Kobra Khan, but we are still missing the Skeletor, if you know what I mean.

[Rumpelstiltskin 45]

Personally, I feel like Grogar should've been more of a present leader to the Legion of Doom; like a mentor figure or a hard-nosed veteran. He could've led them to retrieve the bell, unified them better, and I think the best case scenario would've been for Twilight to come full circle and actually talk them down by pointing out they've become friends. Having the Legion be redeemed would be worth sacrificing the Avengers-ripoff ending. 

 

In any event, there's probably like a thousand ways Season 9's scenario could've been done better, it's just the writers somehow chose the worst possible way to go about it. 

[Dark Qiviut 22,444]

On 2021-12-27 at 4:42 PM, Rumpelstiltskin said:

I think the best case scenario would've been for Twilight to come full circle and actually talk them down by pointing out they've become friends. Having the Legion be redeemed would be worth sacrificing the Avengers-ripoff ending. 

Disagree. Every single time the Terrible Trio was offered the Magic of Friendship, they immediately threw it away.

1. After losing her hive to Thorax, Starlight offered Chrysalis guidance. Unlike Starlight in S5, she rejected it and went on the run. During The Mean Six, she rejected friends for servants and power to conquer the Changeling Kingdom.
2. The very second she signed up for class, Cozy Glow had an ulterior motive to destroy all magic, unleash hell, and incite a mob to rule. She became the top student in the school, earned Twilight's trust, and became a really reliable figure. All the while, she used those lessons and the MoF itself to ship a copy of Twi's curriculum to Flim & Flam, sow doubt among the Young Six, and contact Tirek. If Cozy escaped, she would've tried again.
3. Tirek spat on the idea of the MoF. In Twilight's Kingdom, he used Discord's eagerness for glory to switch sides. Then after helping him capture Twilight's friends, he stole his magic. While penpaling with Cozy, he got to learn about the school, the Young Six, and her intentions to destroy magic.

While together and successfully retrieving the bell, they rejected the Magic for the last time, instead forming an alliance to stab Grogar in the back at his most vulnerable. Thanks to Frenemies, the seeds of their ultimate crime were planted. Any chance of reforming them was over. The Terrible Trio had one goal: conquer Equestria by any means necessary or die trying.

The Avengers-style defense against them makes much more sense. Close friendships with communities beyond Equestria were established with some or all of the Mane Six (Mane Eight if you also count Starlight and Spike) throughout the series. The Young Six understood that the Magic of Friendship doesn't stay with the Mane Eight only, but is embodied with everyone. Every moment throughout the series culminated in that final battle. If they didn't bond and arrive at the right time, the Terrible Trio would've murdered them. Rescuing them tells everyone how much they grew alongside the Mane Eight and why they were among the best vessels to help share the MoF.

[Rumpelstiltskin 45]

On 2021-12-31 at 1:55 AM, Dark Qiviut said:

Disagree. Every single time the Terrible Trio was offered the Magic of Friendship, they immediately threw it away.

1. After losing her hive to Thorax, Starlight offered Chrysalis guidance. Unlike Starlight in S5, she rejected it and went on the run. During The Mean Six, she rejected friends for servants and power to conquer the Changeling Kingdom.
2. The very second she signed up for class, Cozy Glow had an ulterior motive to destroy all magic, unleash hell, and incite a mob to rule. She became the top student in the school, earned Twilight's trust, and became a really reliable figure. All the while, she used those lessons and the MoF itself to ship a copy of Twi's curriculum to Flim & Flam, sow doubt among the Young Six, and contact Tirek. If Cozy escaped, she would've tried again.
3. Tirek spat on the idea of the MoF. In Twilight's Kingdom, he used Discord's eagerness for glory to switch sides. Then after helping him capture Twilight's friends, he stole his magic. While penpaling with Cozy, he got to learn about the school, the Young Six, and her intentions to destroy magic.

While together and successfully retrieving the bell, they rejected the Magic for the last time, instead forming an alliance to stab Grogar in the back at his most vulnerable. Thanks to Frenemies, the seeds of their ultimate crime were planted. Any chance of reforming them was over. The Terrible Trio had one goal: conquer Equestria by any means necessary or die trying.

The Avengers-style defense against them makes much more sense. Close friendships with communities beyond Equestria were established with some or all of the Mane Six (Mane Eight if you also count Starlight and Spike) throughout the series. The Young Six understood that the Magic of Friendship doesn't stay with the Mane Eight only, but is embodied with everyone. Every moment throughout the series culminated in that final battle. If they didn't bond and arrive at the right time, the Terrible Trio would've murdered them. Rescuing them tells everyone how much they grew alongside the Mane Eight and why they were among the best vessels to help share the MoF.

I have to disagree with you. The Trio should've been reformed, because the writers had a whole season to show an organic redemption, which they wasted. Besides, if you count them as irredeemable, then Discord is sure as hell irredeemable and probably worse than they are. How many chances has he been given, and how many times has he spat in their face? What makes him any different from them? 

[Steve Piranha 29,429]

1 hour ago, Rumpelstiltskin said:

I have to disagree with you. The Trio should've been reformed, because the writers had a whole season to show an organic redemption, which they wasted. Besides, if you count them as irredeemable, then Discord is sure as hell irredeemable and probably worse than they are. How many chances has he been given, and how many times has he spat in their face? What makes him any different from them? 

 Nah, many of us were getting sick of reformations

[Rumpelstiltskin 45]

13 hours ago, Steve Piranha said:

 Nah, many of us were getting sick of reformations

That's because they were rushed and poorly done. Here the writers had a whole damn season showing us the trio working together and us starting to like them, then blueballed us in the name of 'Subverting Expectations'. 

[Dark Qiviut 22,444]

34 minutes ago, Rumpelstiltskin said:

That's because they were rushed and poorly done. Here the writers had a whole damn season showing us the trio working together and us starting to like them, then blueballed us in the name of 'Subverting Expectations'. 

There wasn't any subversion of expectation when it came to the Terrible Trio. Unlike Starlight, Diamond Tiara, or Gloriosa Daisy, they showed us that they weren't interested in reforming or redeeming. In two episodes, the audience knew that they were going to be among the biggest baddies. The only question was whether Grogar would be with them or not; there were plenty of clues foreshadowing more to him than meets the eye.

16 hours ago, Rumpelstiltskin said:

then Discord is sure as hell irredeemable and probably worse than they are.

Discord wasn't responsible for any of the crimes they committed. The Terrible Trio planned their entire coup behind his back.

Edited January 2, 2022 by Dark Qiviut

[Steve Piranha 29,429]

1 hour ago, Rumpelstiltskin said:

That's because they were rushed and poorly done. Here the writers had a whole damn season showing us the trio working together and us starting to like them, then blueballed us in the name of 'Subverting Expectations'. 

I don’t see as that. Not reforming that was pretty natural

 

55 minutes ago, Dark Qiviut said:

 

Discord wasn't responsible for any of the crimes they committed. The Terrible Trio planned their entire coup behind his back.

Not forget their threats and actual attempts at cold-blooded murder 

Spoiler

because yeah, this screams “reformation” and “misunderstood folks” 

 

[Rumpelstiltskin 45]

21 hours ago, Dark Qiviut said:

 

Discord wasn't responsible for any of the crimes they committed. The Terrible Trio planned their entire coup behind his back.

 

20 hours ago, Steve Piranha said:

 

 

Not forget their threats and actual attempts at cold-blooded murder 

  Reveal hidden contents

because yeah, this screams “reformation” and “misunderstood folks” 

 

I could make the point that Discord is indirectly responsible because he gave them the means to become dangerous again, but that's beside the point.  What most people tend to overlook with Discord is that he was in all likelihood planning to get the villains killed from the start. 

Let's look at Sombra. Sombra was brutally disintegrated. Now, you could make the argument Discord didn't know that would happen. But he saw it happen. And he didn't care. He still went ahead with his plan knowing full well the others could be killed. This alone is proof that he's a monster. 

 

Edited January 3, 2022 by Rumpelstiltskin