Suppose we have only dreamed...

[Titan Rising 2,156]

Please hang tight guys this might be a little lengthy

 

As someone who wants to believe in an afterlife and that there is something more to this cruel indignant world we live in I often have trouble justifying to myself reasons to be "good" and act "good". And whenever an atheist or anyone who has lost faith in there being anything greater wants to debate with me over philosophy or issues like abortion or the government over my reasons for being a certain way I am hard pressed to debate with them because my beliefs are not necessarily rooted in the observable logic and reasoning of this world.

 

I very often find religious people mocked on the internet and I find this to be a very sad thing because I think it also shows that we as a race are losing hope that there is anything greater. Perhaps in our search for self gratification many of us don't want there to be anything greater at all.

 

Recently I've been reading "The Chronicles of Narnia", and although the books are a bit tedious [for me] to get through I have gained tremendous respect for it's author C. S. Lewis. One quote in particular has stood out to me more than any other in the sixth book of the series:

 

 

“One word, Ma’am,” he said, coming back from the fire; limping, because of the pain. “One word. All you’ve been saying is quite right, I shouldn’t wonder. I’m a chap who always liked to know the worst and then put the best face I can on it. So I won’t deny any of what you said. But there’s one thing more to be said, even so. Suppose we have only dreamed, or made up, all those things - trees and grass and moon and stars and Aslan himself. Suppose we have. Then all I can say is that, in that case, the made-up things seem a good deal more important than the real ones. Suppose this black pit of a kingdom of yours is the only world. Well, it strikes me as a pretty poor one. And that’s a funny thing, when you come to think of it. We’re just babies making up a game, if you’re right. But four babies playing a game can make a playworld which licks your real world hollow. That’s why I’m going to stand by the play-world. I’m on Aslan’s side even if there isn’t any Aslan to lead it. I’m going to live as like a Narnian as I can even if there isn’t any Narnia. So, thanking you kindly for our supper, if these two gentlemen and the young lady are ready, we’re leaving your court at once and setting out into the dark to spend our lives looking for Overland. Not that our lives will be very long, I should think; but that’s a small loss if the world’s as dull a place as you say.”

 

 

To give some perspective, the speaker is defiantly talking back to a witch many miles below the Earth who has cast an enchantment to erase his memories. She's obviously having a difficult time though because he refuses to lose hope that what he believes may be real.

 

On another site a reader had this to say:

 

 

As a literature student fresh out of her BA and about to begin her Masters, I do think that there is something to be said about stories being more true that real life. As an aspiring English teacher, I affirm that one must never limit oneself to an understanding of the world in purely scientific or economic terms. As a reader of books, I believe that a life utterly devoid of the rejuvenating power of imagination can only leave us so much the poorer for it. Yet as a Christian who has been called upon to defend her faith, I am constantly coming back to the fact that what I believe in is indeed considered foolishness by so many others.

 

I do not know if I would die for a story. But I do know that if there is indeed such a being as a God who loved us enough to die for us, then surely I can do no less in giving up everything that I have in this life to seek His face.

 

 

With respect to religion, stories, and even the limits of your own imagination I think this is a powerful point to make, and it is why I believe there is something more. I would even go so far as to say I have to believe there is something more.

 

Perhaps Christians and Muslims and Buddhists and those who watch My Little Pony and dream about a world of friendship and the readers of Naruto and One Piece who idealize the blind idealism of those characters that desire to change their respective worlds are just "babies playing a game", but I for one agree with the sentiments of the protagonist of the novel that I read that the playworld we're dreaming in licks this world hollow.

 

It is a reason, perhaps the best reason, why we should all dream up or hold onto a world far greater than our own and live to the best of our abilities like the greatest person we can dream up would. And perhaps it's something, the best thing even, worth sacrificing our lives for to reach out and live our lives in a way that will bring even a piece of that dream into this world.

 

Of course there are those who believe in things like Hell and who desire material things and physical pleasure, but I do think in the hearts of everyone, even if its not so easy to see, we desire meaning and self respect more than all else... Well that's part of my own dream I suppose.

 

Anyway, I am interested to hear the thoughts of others, especially those who repudiate such sentiments as childish on this subject if all of that wasn't too much to read. And with all of that I still feel like I haven't done justice to the quote or my own thoughts on the subject, but I hope I was able to convey my thoughts well enough

Edited August 26, 2012 by Hollowshield

[PlunderSteed 1,252]

Perhaps Christians and Muslims and Buddhists and those who watch My Little Pony and dream about a world of friendship and the readers of Naruto and One Piece who idealize the blind idealism of those characters that desire to change their respective worlds are just "babies playing a game", but I for one agree with the sentiments of the protagonist of the novel that I read that the playworld we're dreaming in licks this world hollow.

 

...

 

Of course there are those who believe in things like Hell and who desire material things and physical pleasure, but I do think in the hearts of everyone, even if its not so easy to see, we desire meaning and self respect more than all else... Well that's part of my own dream I suppose.

 

Anyway, I am interested to hear the thoughts of others, especially those who repudiate such sentiments as childish on this subject if all of that wasn't too much to read.

 

Interesting questions. Although I no longer view these ideas with quite that level of romanticism, I agree that everyone should examine them the way that you are.

[Solar Wind 595]

Indeed. The second quote I found quite interesting. The part where she mentioned that we can not view the world strictly in economic and scientific terms esspecially simply because it is true. The world and all of its secrets are still unknwon to us and although there may come a time when Science can explain truly EVERYTHING for now I keep my faith within a higher power. I beleive that there are many things science can teach us. However there may also be many things it can not. It is our job to find out the truth together.

This thread is moving and I like it.

[Titan Rising 2,156]

Thanks SolarWind

 

Also I think even if the universe can be fully explained by science, even if we are simply beings that evolved into what we are today over time, that isn't necessarily a reason to give up believing that there is something more. Our capacity to understand is limited; in the same way a dog is unable to understand good and evil I believe there may be even further complex abstract concepts that we are not capable of understanding.

[Key Gear 6,663]

I hope I was able to convey my thoughts well enough

Well enough? My friend, I find what you have written in this post to be one of the more beautiful things that I've read on this site. Thank you for taking the time to post that. Your writing in this post is both cogent and poignant.

 

I wish I had something profound to add to this topic, but I really don't. I can only say that there are many times when I contemplate the universe and how small I truly am within it. Against such awesome vastness, the entirety of human civilization seems so small and fragile. For me, to dream and imagine is to sample, if only in my mind, just a taste of the infinite possibilities that the universe holds.

[Guest]

 

I may not be Christian, but I believe there is more out there, and my imagination takes me places everyday. I believe the barriers of this world lie at our perspective, and that when we die, we break those barriers. There are many worlds out there, many lifes, all imagination. We live in an imagination world, ruled by our perspectives.

[Titan Rising 2,156]

Well enough? My friend, I find what you have written in this post to be one of the more beautiful things that I've read on this site. Thank you for taking the time to post that. Your writing in this post is both cogent and poignant.

Thanks for that it means a lot ^^, but I'm afraid it feels rather shallow to me having spent the entirety of last week reading through The Chronicles of Narnia lol, C.S.Lewis is a truly amazing wordsmith.

 

I wish I had something profound to add to this topic, but I really don't. I can only say that there are many times when I contemplate the universe and how small I truly am within it. Against such awesome vastness, the entirety of human civilization seems so small and fragile. For me, to dream and imagine is to sample, if only in my mind, just a taste of the infinite possibilities that the universe holds.

 

That is one infallible constant in all of this - we are undoubtedly one tiny insignificant piece in a part of something much greater.

Edited August 26, 2012 by Hollowshield

[AnonBrony 1,468]

I too believe there is something greater out there. Be it God, or be it something else. This world isn't the only one. The truth... There is still much to learn about it.

It has been a dream of mine... to strive for this truth. to learn as much about it. To discover it. There is a limit to what we can understand. And even if Science can help us understand evrything.... it still can't. There is always more. Galaxys, univereses, dimensions, everything. There is always much more. And there is always thing out there, possibly much greater than us. And i will try to learn as a much as i can. To find the truth.

 

Whether theres a God or not. Whether we are alone in the universe or not. Whether this is the only universe. We do not know. But what i do know is... i will try no... we... we will try our best to find the truth. That is a promise i am willing to make.

[I used to be a stranger 7,993]

The deepest question is whether or not the fact of what we are, the substance of our being within this Universe is if what we are is Natural, or a Supernatural hybrid- some form of creature that's part soul and part beast- or just beast alone.

 

Rather an anticlimax if we simply dismiss the notion of the soul, I say.

 

These apples are delicious, I say.

Edited August 26, 2012 by Blue

[OptimisticNeighsayer 478]

I just get the feeling that I'm completely missing the point, but here goes...

 

I consider the question whether there is something "more" out there, in the context of discussions such as these, to be extremely misleading. Of course there is "more"-- mankind is constantly revising his views of the universe, because all of our understanding is just based on observations aided by intuitions, with the intuitions constantly subject to refinement, and those revisions are revealing more of what is the universe. That's why we have things such as science, in order to discover them, and it requires a cutting of psychological predispositions. Why can't our ideas on what is "out there" be based on what we see and sort through? Why must we be so worried about our perceptions being incorrect that we fail to understand with whatever we have? Perhaps I just have a poor imagination compared to many other people... it also seems that the literature student has a somewhat narrow understanding of science and economics-- I've implied that, as others have, that science is a learning process and not a collection of facts, and requires just as much imagination as reading a book or delving into a fantasy world.

 

Now, as far as the "greatest person we can dream up" bit-- you're not interpreting this on an exclusively individual level are you? With the myriad intuitions out there everyone's going to have a individual and unique conception of "the good", which is naturally going to be represented by "the greatest"-- many of these could very well not mesh well with each other. I find it difficult to automatically assume that everyone's idea of the good will also include how that good relates to other goods and other ideas that others have. Perhaps that's beyond the scope of this inquiry...

 

Anyhow, I don't consider it childish to dream of "something more" at all-- especially if its aim is to understand the universe better and to figure out how one should live, especially with others.

[PlunderSteed 1,252]

science is a learning process and not a collection of facts, and requires just as much imagination as reading a book or delving into a fantasy world.

 

It's taking that imagination, and actually doing something with it, rather than just wishing for it.

[Envy 6,159]

I very often find religious people mocked on the internet and I find this to be a very sad thing because I think it also shows that we as a race are losing hope that there is anything greater. Perhaps in our search for self gratification many of us don't want there to be anything greater at all.

If there isn't anything greater, which is the most likely scenario from where I'm sitting, then to have hope in such a thing doesn't seem like a good thing to me There are people who become very irrational at times when they think that they have an afterlife waiting for them. They do crazy things and can destroy their lives - the only life we know for sure that we have.

 

You could say I have been one of those people, but I'm not blaming my former religious beliefs. It's just that if I absolutely had known there was no afterlife and had no such thing to cling to, I probably would have lived these last several years differently.

 

If there is anybody that wishes there could be anything greater (and by that, I mean an afterlife of some sort, like reincarnation, not a God), it is me. Trust me. However, even despite that, I had to come to terms with reality. I don't know what it will do with my mental health, but I am no longer at a place where I can think such a thing exists, and if you knew me and exactly how much I clinged to that belief, you would understand exactly how extraordinary this is. I needed that belief, but even with that I could not keep it, because it's just so ridiculously unlikely.

[Dusty Soul 2,611]

I very often find religious people mocked on the internet and I find this to be a very sad thing because I think it also shows that we as a race are losing hope that there is anything greater. Perhaps in our search for self gratification many of us don't want there to be anything greater at all.

I agree with this. I think that people are losing focus with their hope... I for one think there is something greater (Christian). The last line of this quote is very interesting to think about. Are you saying that by pleasing ourselves we don't want to think about anything greater then us at all, or are you saying that to make us feel less insignificant we cancel out our beliefs on really anything that is assumed to be greater then us.

[Titan Rising 2,156]

I consider the question whether there is something "more" out there, in the context of discussions such as these, to be extremely misleading. Of course there is "more"-- mankind is constantly revising his views of the universe, because all of our understanding is just based on observations aided by intuitions, with the intuitions constantly subject to refinement, and those revisions are revealing more of what is the universe. That's why we have things such as science, in order to discover them, and it requires a cutting of psychological predispositions. Why can't our ideas on what is "out there" be based on what we see and sort through? Why must we be so worried about our perceptions being incorrect that we fail to understand with whatever we have? Perhaps I just have a poor imagination compared to many other people... it also seems that the literature student has a somewhat narrow understanding of science and economics-- I've implied that, as others have, that science is a learning process and not a collection of facts, and requires just as much imagination as reading a book or delving into a fantasy world.

 

When I say "more" in this context I am primarily speaking of it in the spiritual sense, not the physical sense. Of course there is "more" when it comes to discovering things in this universe. What "more" I am hoping for are reasons to act a certain way instead of acting only on the basis of what we can observe in this world - a reason to believe a certain way of thinking is "right" and "good" and another way of thinking is "wrong" and "bad". Perhaps a world beyond death that makes living this life not seem so futile and insignificant

 

You also misunderstand the English student, they are suggesting that that scientific learning process is limiting exactly because you can only observe what's right in front of you to gain knowledge. To hope that there is something beyond this realm and beyond death, beyond reason to be selfish/lustful/arrogant/hateful/envious/etc is something science can never tell us

 

 

If there isn't anything greater, which is the most likely scenario from where I'm sitting, then to have hope in such a thing doesn't seem like a good thing to me There are people who become very irrational at times when they think that they have an afterlife waiting for them. They do crazy things and can destroy their lives - the only life we know for sure that we have.

What is so great about this life that it is worth sitting in fear over losing it? Especially without hope that there is something more? If we live in a world where [in the end] friendship and our bonds with others and our efforts to do good never amount to anything then I do not wish to live in this world anyway. This is what personally drives me.

 

If there is anybody that wishes there could be anything greater (and by that, I mean an afterlife of some sort, like reincarnation, not a God), it is me. Trust me. However, even despite that, I had to come to terms with reality. I don't know what it will do with my mental health, but I am no longer at a place where I can think such a thing exists, and if you knew me and exactly how much I clinged to that belief, you would understand exactly how extraordinary this is. I needed that belief, but even with that I could not keep it, because it's just so ridiculously unlikely.

 

I am sad to hear that and I hope your life changes around and you are able to turn around and hope again. Without the hope I think we really are nothing.

 

It's taking that imagination, and actually doing something with it, rather than just wishing for it.

 

What I'm suggesting is not empty wishing. It is believing in something in order to push yourself further and improve yourself and the world in accordance to your individual dreams

 

These apples are delicious, I say.

 

I say you are quite right my friend. In fact, I don't think I could bare to eat any other apples after trying these.

Edited August 26, 2012 by Hollowshield

[Envy 6,159]

What is so great about this life that it is worth sitting in fear over losing it? Especially without hope that there is something more? If we live in a world where [in the end] friendship and our bonds with others and our efforts to do good never amount to anything then I do not wish to live in this world anyway. This is what personally drives me.

 

I am sad to hear that and I hope your life changes around and you are able to turn around and hope again. Without the hope I think we really are nothing.

You tell me about how I should 'hope' again, but I don't see any hope coming from you.

 

How you could even type what you did above just flat out depresses me. We are "nothing" without something greater? Our efforts to do good can never amount to anything without anything greater?

 

No. We have tons of luxuries, knowledge, etc. in our life that can be attributed straight down to an individual either in the distant past or in the present. Our lives can be very much connected to a great distance. We may all be individual grains of sand, but we don't live in a vacuum.

 

I'm sorry you see no value in this life, but it is all we know that we have. I see no value in hope for something 'greater'. I see much value in moving to improve the world we have right now so that future generations will enjoy an greater quality of life. That's not 'nothing', that is the very definition of what is in existence. To label it as 'nothing' just makes me very sad. To you, I'm just 'nothing'. Even though I am clearly not. You refuse to see value where there is plenty. It is you I hope will see 'hope' someday. Hope for this existence is what is valuable.

[Titan Rising 2,156]

@@Envy

 

What value is there in a life where all one can seek is comfort? Personal comfort and luxaries are meaningless endeavors to pursue. Your "knowledge" is limited by what you know and what you understand and what you can observe, and while I respect gaining knowledge in the world we live the truth is I have no interest in learning in a universe where we are destined to fade into nothingness. There is absolutely no point or value in living simply for the sake of living.

 

Without any higher purpose or meaning there is no such thing as "good" and there'd certainly be no reason to be good unless its to earn favor with others, and in that case i wouldn't call that actually being good at all

 

I do see meaning in this life however exactly because I believe there is a higher meaning or something more, and that there is value in trying to do good. You may very well be right that it's "all we have" and that there may be nothing more than this, but I will keep hoping and acting as if there is anyway because I would rather sit here and pretend that there is reason and purpose to be good than accept that all I see is all there is.

[Guest]

@@Envy

 

What value is there in a life where all one can seek is comfort? Personal comfort and luxaries are meaningless endeavors to pursue. Your "knowledge" is limited by what you know and what you understand and what you can observe, and while I respect gaining knowledge in the world we live the truth is I have no interest in learning in a universe where we are destined to fade into nothingness. There is absolutely no point or value in living simply for the sake of living.

 

Without any higher purpose or meaning there is no such thing as "good" and there'd certainly be no reason to be good unless its to earn favor with others, and in that case i wouldn't call that actually being good at all

 

I do see meaning in this life however exactly because I believe there is a higher meaning or something more, and that there is value in trying to do good. You may very well be right that it's "all we have" and that there may be nothing more than this, but I will keep hoping and acting as if there is anyway because I would rather sit here and pretend that there is reason and purpose to be good than accept that all I see is all there is.

 

I very much have to disagree with you, although I believe there is something "out there" that doesn't necessarily mean it is greater. It is just different than the "here" and the "now." Why is life un-fulfilling without something greater, what makes it so bad? I am happy just to live, be comfortable, learn, grow, love, be loved, make others smile and see what I can do in this life, if that isn't good enough for me I don't know what is. Looking for the answers for what is "out there" is all fine and dandy, but when that becomes your only meaning, your only goal, you've missed the meaning and beauty of this life we have here right now.

 

To enjoy the cool rush of ice-water, to feel the touch of a lover, to watch the sun, moon, and stars traverse the sky, these things are beautiful and they require nothing greater to be beautiful. Even saying "that's all we have" is a negative for me, we've got a helluva a lot going for us, even with the bad. The every-day little things, the wonders, the greatness of living.

 

“There are only two ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a miracle. The other is as though everything is a miracle.”

― Albert Einstein

 

I feel that by simply hoping for "something greater" we end up choosing the path Einstein mentioned of that "nothing is a miracle" because we keep waiting for a big miracle and put down all the real-life ones in front of us as being lesser and not capable of being miraculous.

 

I've never believed in inherent goodness, or evil for that matter. Its just labels we apply, nothing can be good, because its all based in perspective. What is good to me, might not be good to you, or vice versa. Unless everyone had the exact same viewpoints, it is impossible. Inherent goodness in the universe doesn't make sense either, because that would imply that there is no grey area.

 

To me there is "kindness and un-kindness" these are separate beings, that require no inherent truth. Helping the homeless is kind, beating down people for being a different religion is un-kind. The thing is, if you go off of "goodness" it might be said that because the homeless man is *insert something here based off philosophy/religion* he is a bad person, and should not be shown kindness, and yet the beating that other person might be seen as good because you are furthering your philosophy and stopping the "enemy."

 

I'm not pointing fingers at anyone, and I'm not saying to believe in something "greater" is bad. I believe in something greater, but I don't make it my only thing, I see value in all things regardless of that "greater" thing out there.

[Titan Rising 2,156]

@

 

If there is nothing greater than what are feelings of comfort? What is love? What is the point in living for others? It comes down to everything being a cosmic anomaly. As creatures our feelings of comfort, love, and even doing anything for others would be nothing more than instinctual responses to cope with our existence and to satisfy ourselves on some level. I see nothing but emptiness filled with meaningless endeavors in this

 

“There are only two ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a miracle. The other is as though everything is a miracle.”

― Albert Einstein

 

I feel that by simply hoping for "something greater" we end up choosing the path Einstein mentioned of that "nothing is a miracle" because we keep waiting for a big miracle and put down all the real-life ones in front of us as being lesser and not capable of being miraculous.

 

I wonder how you could call anything a miracle if it occurred only by random chance? Hoping that there is something greater does not mean I overlook the beauty of the world, it gives me reason to see the world as beautiful - to see it as a part of something much greater

Edited August 27, 2012 by Hollowshield

[Guest]

@

 

If there is nothing greater than what are feelings of comfort? What is love? What is the point in living for others? It comes down to everything being a cosmic anomaly. As creatures our feelings of comfort, love, and even doing anything for others would be nothing more than instinctual responses to cope with our existence and to satisfy ourselves on some level. I see nothing but emptiness filled with meaningless endeavors in this

 

[/font][/color]

 

I wonder how you could call anything a miracle if it occurred only by random chance? Hoping that there is something greater does not mean I overlook the beauty of the world, it gives me reason to see the world as beautiful - to see it as a part of something much greater

 

They are what they are, if they happen to be psychological phenomena or what have you I could care less. They do their job, and that is all that matters. They obviously work, and claiming they need something greater to back them up is but one theory among countless theories. What is wrong with them being instinctual responses, what is wrong with coping? Is that so bad? You act as though being "biological" is dirty, that is has to come from something beyond to be greater. The mind and what it produces, our thoughts and emotions, be they biological, divine, or other it matters not, they work. When I die, if I just go off to a blackness, I would be happy to have lived, and to have died as I should. I won't see this life as a waste, that is just a depressed state, a spiraling madness that breeds upon itself to think it all means nothing because there is no guiding force, nothing inherent.

 

Does something have to be pre-ordained to be a miracle, cannot random chance be a miracle? What makes random chance any less likely to produce a miracle as anything else? You shouldn't need a reason to see the world as beautiful beyond it simply being beautiful, to require something beyond that is to not really see the beauty because you are saying the beauty is not there UNLESS the greater thing is there. You might not be overlooking it, but your viewpoint requires you to see something greater for the beauty to even be there.

[Kalypso 69]

that was truly the most beautiful thing i have ever read i clicked on this expecting a what if everything is a dream/inception post but this was amazing

[Music Chart Fan 819]

...

...

I got a strong feeling of deja vu reading this thread, because Hollowshield was making nearly exactly the same points to me in the "Is religion dangerous?" thread (http://mlpforums.com/topic/21396-is-religion-dangerous/page__st__320) when I argued that there is no need for a supernatural basis for morality or for giving life meaning. I agree very much with Envy and with Nevermore and Arya.

 

It comes down to everything being a cosmic anomaly.

Again, I find the origins of the universe, the origins of life, and the origins of intelligence to be fascinating scientific inquiries, and well worth pursuing, but I don't see these questions have any bearing on morality and the meaning of my life right now.

 

What is wrong with them being instinctual responses, what is wrong with coping? Is that so bad? You act as though being "biological" is dirty, that is has to come from something beyond to be greater.

You took the words right out of my mouth mind.

 

I wonder how you could call anything a miracle if it occurred only by random chance?

I think this depends on how you define a miracle. Some people would say that a miracle is an effect or event with supernatural origins. However, it seems to me that what Einstein meant by a miracle in his quote is an effect or event which fills one with awe and wonder, which is astonishing in its beauty and elegance. If we subscribe to the latter definition, then many things are miracles, including the technological advancement of the human race to where it is now and the amount of knowledge of the workings of the universe that the human race has attained so far.

 

If I were to say that I believe in "something more," then that would be the power of human intellect to discover the workings of the universe and to make the lives of the current generation and following generations better than the last.

[Titan Rising 2,156]

that was truly the most beautiful thing i have ever read i clicked on this expecting a what if everything is a dream/inception post but this was amazing

 

Thank you very kindly for that, and I'm happy there are people that can appreciate the thought whether or not you actually believe in any of what I was talking about ^^

 

What is wrong with them being instinctual responses, what is wrong with coping? Is that so bad? You act as though being "biological" is dirty, that is has to come from something beyond to be greater.

That is not what I'm trying to say at all; all I'm saying is that life without anything beyond living for the sake of living has no meaning or purpose. If that is our fate then it is our fate, but it is not something I wish to believe in or live by

 

Does something have to be pre-ordained to be a miracle, cannot random chance be a miracle? What makes random chance any less likely to produce a miracle as anything else?

I think this depends on how you define a miracle. Some people would say that a miracle is an effect or event with supernatural origins. However, it seems to me that what Einstein meant by a miracle in his quote is an effect or event which fills one with awe and wonder, which is astonishing in its beauty and elegance. If we subscribe to the latter definition, then many things are miracles, including the technological advancement of the human race to where it is now and the amount of knowledge of the workings of the universe that the human race has attained so far.

 

Truth be told I don't believe in miracles and I don't believe anything is preordained. But if what you're saying could be reduced to "can random chance be beautiful", then I would have to say: no. Why? Ask yourself what is random chance in this context? It is the likelyhood that something is bound to occur - we exist because fate rolled a die and it happened to land on a certain number; where is the "miracle" or beauty in this? I see nothing but meaningless existance in a universe bound by limitations, doomed to continue rolling the same die over and over again, occasionally landing on a side that was less likely for it to have landed on than others

 

You shouldn't need a reason to see the world as beautiful beyond it simply being beautiful, to require something beyond that is to not really see the beauty because you are saying the beauty is not there UNLESS the greater thing is there. You might not be overlooking it, but your viewpoint requires you to see something greater for the beauty to even be there.

 

That is correct. I find beauty in life believing there is meaning and purpose; it is the same way that I find a poem to be beautiful because of it's meaning rather than simply because it uses pretty words and rhymes. I see no problem with this way of thinking

Edited August 27, 2012 by Hollowshield

[Evilshy 5,090]

Life is, ultimately, meaningless unless you yourself give it meaning. And meaning is subjective and completely up to the individual. If you want to give your life meaning by believing in some greater power, that's no problem. I just happen to believe my life has meaning because I give it meaning. There are things I want to do in my life. The reasons for doing them are many, but they all boil down to my brain releasing chemicals that make me feel positively when I complete them. I honestly don't see the need for belief in a higher power, I can find plenty of meaning in my life, simply because I put it there.

 

As for good and evil, of course they don't exist. They are merely a set of behaviors, thoughts, and emotions that society tells are good and bad, respectively. It's bad to punch a random guy in the face because society says it is. Helping people is good for the same reason. And I'm not saying there's anything wrong with this, we need society and it's rules to live.

The Afterlife is similar. The thought of an afterlife mainly stems from two things; fear of death, and a sense of justice. People don't like seeing bad people prosper and good people suffer. It's much easier to go through hardships and remain a good person if you believe you'll be rewarded in the Afterlife, and it makes it easier to see bad people have it easy if you think they'll be punished for it in the Afterlife. Whether or not there is an Afterlife is moot, these are simply reasons why people like to believe in one.

Personally, I just see shit happening. A crime lord is rolling around in a $200,000 car while some of the nicest people in the world live one town over and are starving? Yeah, that sucks, but shit happens. This world is far from perfect, always has been and always will be.

 

And lastly, I guess it just kinda bugs me when people get so worked up over stuff that probably doesn't exist when there at so many real world things right in front of them that they could get worked up over. But at the same time, I almost envy that, the ability to have faith that things will be okay anyway :/

[Guest]

Life is, ultimately, meaningless unless you yourself give it meaning. And meaning is subjective and completely up to the individual. If you want to give your life meaning by believing in some greater power, that's no problem. I just happen to believe my life has meaning because I give it meaning. There are things I want to do in my life. The reasons for doing them are many, but they all boil down to my brain releasing chemicals that make me feel positively when I complete them. I honestly don't see the need for belief in a higher power, I can find plenty of meaning in my life, simply because I put it there.

I very much agree here, meaning is all in the perspective, we apply our own meaning to our lives (even if that meaning stems from believing in a greater power).

[MarkKB 32]

The purpose of life is to improve the universe. Each generation furthers our progression, and the progression of those around us. There doesn't have to be an 'after' for that to be a worthwhile goal.

 

Hollowshield, on your analogy of a poem - the meaning you take from it is your own, isn't it? Everyone will have a different reaction to a poem - and the more abstract it is, the more meanings will differ. In the end it doesn't matter what the creator of the poem meant - it's the meaning you take from it.

 

Which is my view on life in general, per chance. Your life is what you make it, and there doesn't have to be an 'after' for that to count.

 

[Edit] Gah, ninjas! That was very well put, Evilshy - better than how I put it, at least, I think. *thumbs up*

Edited August 27, 2012 by MarkKB