Is Chrysalis truly more powerful than Celestia

[Metemponychosis 1,262]

I'm still of the opinion that the actual reason for Celestia to lose this battle against Chrysalis is that the producers needed the villain to do her thing while Celestia was still in the scene. No way she'd just stand there like an idiot, so they had her do something. There's also the Worf Efffect. Oolong, look how powerful she is. And then look how much more powerful is Love.

 

Not my favorite of scenes but it fit the situation. I used to think that they could have done better, but it doesn't really matter. Now that we know that alicorns used to be normal ponies (as "normal" as Twilight ever was), I'm willing to cut Celestia some slack.

[TheMarkz0ne 962]

I think this pic sums it all up right here. It explains why Celestia is a princess and why Chrissy is Queen. Here is the princess bowing before her Queen

 

http://browse.deviantart.com/art/thank-you-for-the-500-favs-on-Chrysalis-Celestia-304637901

[Veylon 255]

 

 

I think any reasonable person in that situation would almost certainly come to conclusion 2 before 1. Heck even Twilight questioned her own logic afterwards. Shining's explanation was the more common sense explanation. Twilight went in accusing Cadence with no evidence other than her own account which appeared to be emotionally driven to the others.  If they did question Celestia and not everyone else including her sister Luna I would find that pretty silly.

The key word here is reasonable. Celestia did what was prudent and sensible. But that's not what's expected from a Chessmaster; what's expect is that they perform the correct action regardless of evidence or common sense. So I'm not trying to claim she's some kind of fool or reckless. I'm saying that she's fallible and that it's fair for the other characters to challenge or reject her plans if they judge them too risky.

 

There's also the key point of Celestia being in charge. She can't hide in amongst the others and say "oh, you can't blame me without blaming other ponies too" (not that she would do that) because the others are only there because she put them there. If the guards aren't up to snuff, it's her responsibility to replace them. Granted, Shining shouldn't let things get to that point, but if he does, she's responsible for replacing him too. Luna is about the only other one that you can blame directly. If she has the authority to make decisions then she's responsible when they turn out to be wrong.

 

Again, though, I'm not trying to say that Celestia is stupid or shouldn't be in charge. It's fair for her to ask that her authority not be abrogated over a mistake that almost anyone would make. She can make her case to the general public and hope that they won't think less of her for what happened.

 

Also, when I mentioned contingency plans, I wasn't talking about the shield or the guards. I was talking about the moments leading up to her fight with Chrysalis. She just kind of dove in there without trying to set anything up. She could've yelled at Twilight & co. to get the Elements. She could've called in any guards and/or martially-inclined ponies within earshot for support. She could've fired off a magical flare of distress (assuming that something was set up ahead of time). Granted, any or all of those might have failed. But they would've given better odds for success.

[Anadu Kune 668]

The key word here is reasonable. Celestia did what was prudent and sensible. But that's not what's expected from a Chessmaster; what's expect is that they perform the correct action regardless of evidence or common sense. So I'm not trying to claim she's some kind of fool or reckless. I'm saying that she's fallible and that it's fair for the other characters to challenge or reject her plans if they judge them too risky.

 

There's also the key point of Celestia being in charge. She can't hide in amongst the others and say "oh, you can't blame me without blaming other ponies too" (not that she would do that) because the others are only there because she put them there. If the guards aren't up to snuff, it's her responsibility to replace them. Granted, Shining shouldn't let things get to that point, but if he does, she's responsible for replacing him too. Luna is about the only other one that you can blame directly. If she has the authority to make decisions then she's responsible when they turn out to be wrong.

 

Again, though, I'm not trying to say that Celestia is stupid or shouldn't be in charge. It's fair for her to ask that her authority not be abrogated over a mistake that almost anyone would make. She can make her case to the general public and hope that they won't think less of her for what happened.

 

Also, when I mentioned contingency plans, I wasn't talking about the shield or the guards. I was talking about the moments leading up to her fight with Chrysalis. She just kind of dove in there without trying to set anything up. She could've yelled at Twilight & co. to get the Elements. She could've called in any guards and/or martially-inclined ponies within earshot for support. She could've fired off a magical flare of distress (assuming that something was set up ahead of time). Granted, any or all of those might have failed. But they would've given better odds for success.

 A master chess player relies on what is seen or visible  They observe a board with pieces and know many numbers of possible actions that can take place. Without the pieces being visible they would be unable to make predictions and plans for whats to come. I used to make a joke about painting a chess piece the opposite color and planting it on the opposite side of the board as a spy. Obviously this is really really silly, but if it could be done it would be hugely detrimental to a master chess players game. The spy chess piece is indistinguishable from his normal pieces and he would have no way of knowing it was there. The master would occasionally notice his piece in a place he didn't remember putting it, and write it off as a lapse in memory. After all there's no precedence for a rouge Chess piece. There's no contingency in any book for that. This is what is happening in that episode. The Chess Board is Equestria and the enemy spy is Chrysalis. Celestia has looked over the chess board and planed well for most contingencies. So has her sister Luna who is probably just as wise and observant in her own way. She has no way to tell there was a spy amongst them, let alone the princess of love being a doppelganger. Master Chess players are not all knowing gods that can perform the correct move despite no evidence or visual data to indicate that move as an option. Yes Celestia may be a master chess player of sorts, but despite claims to the contrary she is not a all knowing god. 

 

That is what I call fan batman syndrome. Fans often say batman has a plan for everything and that's why he can take down any hero or villian no contest. I think that's wrong, because batman(barring the bad comics) is not that badly written. He makes contingencies for feasible but unlikely happenings. It is unlikely for any one of the justice league to go evil and kill people but it could happen, batman plans for that. However it is unlikely batman plans on a contingency for a case where all of the justice league members all decide to kill him at the same time and attack him whilst he is in his Bruce persona at a meeting. Some fans would say Batman would know about this. I think that's just bad writing, it makes batman perfect. That's what you'd have to be to predict things that have zero evidence and go completely against common sense. That or you would have to have precognitive abilities. I don't think either is the case with Celestia. 

 

 The point I was trying to make was that you cant really call her reasoning into question without calling everyone else's. There's no reasonable way she or anyone else would have seen this coming through normal means. Every call she made was the logical and reasonable one. Even if she knew about changelings its a very reasonable course of action for the super powerful sun queen to just take her on directly. After all if the changelings had a chance of defeating her directly why would they have a need for a disguise?Their very nature is subterfuge. And why risk anyone else getting hurt? As we've seen before the guards cant deal with someone of that level of power. To be honest one of questions that I do have is why Celestia waited so long to do so. Chrysalis gets a good amount of dialog off before Celestia steps in. 

[Sanic Screwdriver 345]

Basically what everypony else is saying. I mean there is nothing that tells us exactly who is stronger, but I feel Celestia is more powerful, but because there was so much love, Chrysalis got one heck of a power boost

[Mint_Melody 91]

Does anyone know which she was feeding off of, Shining Armor's love or Cadence's? Or both? I never really quite figured that out because it makes a difference. I think it's odd that their love is any more powerful than most people in love. Was it because she was literally feeding off of the mate of/the alicorn of love?

 

I'd say Chrysalis', as well as any changelings, power is subjective on who they are feeding on. She is, obviously, made to look like the most powerful out of her own species, but that isn't to say she couldn't be defeated by Trixie, if she was feeding off of a weakling. She isn't particularly powerful on her own, or at least it didn't suggest that she is. 

 

I highly doubt she could defeat Celestia again, I'm not sure any of them could be snared  into her plot again. 

[Metemponychosis 1,262]

Does anyone know which she was feeding off of, Shining Armor's love or Cadence's? Or both? I never really quite figured that out because it makes a difference. I think it's odd that their love is any more powerful than most people in love. Was it because she was literally feeding off of the mate of/the alicorn of love?

 

I'd say Chrysalis', as well as any changelings, power is subjective on who they are feeding on. She is, obviously, made to look like the most powerful out of her own species, but that isn't to say she couldn't be defeated by Trixie, if she was feeding off of a weakling. She isn't particularly powerful on her own, or at least it didn't suggest that she is. 

 

I highly doubt she could defeat Celestia again, I'm not sure any of them could be snared  into her plot again. 

I figured that Chrysalis was on the receiving end of Shining Armor's love for Cadance. It fits with the changelings in some european mythology I don't remember where the changelings would take a newborn and place it's offspring on it's place, allowing it to feed from the parent's love for the child.

[Veylon 255]

 

 

A master chess player relies on what is seen or visible  They observe a board with pieces and know many numbers of possible actions that can take place. Without the pieces being visible they would be unable to make predictions and plans for whats to come. I used to make a joke about painting a chess piece the opposite color and planting it on the opposite side of the board as a spy.

I think we're arguing past each other here. When I say "Chessmaster", I'm referring to the trope; a character who has everything planned out to the nth degree, including that rogue chesspiece. You say Batman - or at least that particular fat Batman - and that's essentially what a Chessmaster is. A boring character as a result of bad writing. So I'm pleased that that's no longer - or at least wasn't for once - the case with Celestia. Her answer to the return of Nightmare Moon scenario was very much a Chessmaster gambit. But now she's an ordinary Chessmaster who must act with limited knowledge. This is a good thing and I hope the writers remember it.

 

 

 

To be honest one of questions that I do have is why Celestia waited so long to do so. Chrysalis gets a good amount of dialog off before Celestia steps in.

Maybe Celestia considered the Changeling Queen so little threat that she could afford some theater? I don't know.

[Anadu Kune 668]

 

I think we're arguing past each other here. When I say "Chessmaster", I'm referring to the trope; a character who has everything planned out to the nth degree, including that rogue chesspiece. You say Batman - or at least that particular fat Batman - and that's essentially what a Chessmaster is. A boring character as a result of bad writing. So I'm pleased that that's no longer - or at least wasn't for once - the case with Celestia. Her answer to the return of Nightmare Moon scenario was very much a Chessmaster gambit. But now she's an ordinary Chessmaster who must act with limited knowledge. This is a good thing and I hope the writers remember it.

 

 

 

Maybe Celestia considered the Changeling Queen so little threat that she could afford some theater? I don't know.

 

Perhaps though I prefer the word discussion over argument. Even though it does technically fits, it just comes off as an angry sounding word to me, and that's not how I want to come off. I never really felt Celestia fit into that role though. Which is probably why I went the way I did in presenting my stance. As well as the fact that I did think you were referring to actual chess players rather the the trope. I thought you wanted her to be like that. It seemed to me from the first season that Celestia was flawed in some way. After all if she were truly a chessmaster wouldn't have seen the whole nightmare moon thing coming and prevented it from happening? It also seems that she didn't foresee Twilight so much as sought out those who could wield the elements fruitlessly for almost 1000 years until she saw Twilight. Really to me it seemed like just as much a gamble as a plan. If she couldn't find the elements she lose everything, but it was pretty much her only option. then you have the Discord episode. Not only did she not expect Discord to return, but see also failed to anticipate him being able to get past her magic to steal the Elements. That episode in particular seemed to demonstrate that though Celestia is extremely intelligent and does plan, she is not perfect and can be caught off guard. 

[Veylon 255]

 

 

Really to me it seemed like just as much a gamble as a plan. If she couldn't find the elements she lose everything, but it was pretty much her only option. then you have the Discord episode. Not only did she not expect Discord to return, but see also failed to anticipate him being able to get past her magic to steal the Elements. That episode in particular seemed to demonstrate that though Celestia is extremely intelligent and does plan, she is not perfect and can be caught off guard. 

This is very much how I see Celestia, right down to the word 'gamble'. Seeing her caught off guard by Discord and later Chrysalis really puts her earlier plan against Nightmare in a different light. She did have the other option of meeting Nightmare with force though, if she won, this would only have ended by killing or re-banishing her. But she loves Luna, so she took the riskier plan, for her sister's sake.

[Anadu Kune 668]

This is very much how I see Celestia, right down to the word 'gamble'. Seeing her caught off guard by Discord and later Chrysalis really puts her earlier plan against Nightmare in a different light. She did have the other option of meeting Nightmare with force though, if she won, this would only have ended by killing or re-banishing her. But she loves Luna, so she took the riskier plan, for her sister's sake.

Perhaps that is so. Though I thought it was indicated that Nightmare Moon defeated Celestia in a way. She seemed to have been banished and only returned when Nightmare Moon was defeated. Though it is possible she may have been able to take her down by other means. 

[Mlpfan185 1,763]

Something was here. Something was here. Something was here. 

Edited October 10, 2018 by NONAME

[IronPonyApplejack 318]

Given that Shining Armor and Cadence's love was enough to drive her and every single changling in Canterlot out with a single blast, I'd say that Celestia would wipe the floor with Chrysalis on a normal day. Having that kind of power added to her own is what did it. And if you notice, she's straining to outmatch Celestia's attack, so even with all that extra power, it looks like she's just barely stronger.

[Darker 1,351]

She was surprised to see herself winning against her, so no, Chrysalis was weaker than Celestia before.

[Fhaolan 4,484]

She was surprised to see herself winning against her, so no, Chrysalis was weaker than Celestia before.

Or, Celestia is not as strong as she is advertised to be. Not to say she's *weak*, of course. But there's a good chance that after a thousand years on the throne, the legend of Celestia is bigger than the actuality of Celestia. This would lead Chrysalis to believe she had become stronger than she actually had.

 

It's like a little kid picking up a big rock. There's a moment where they think they've gotten super-strong, because big rocks are heavy, until a moment later when the rock breaks apart, and it turns out the inside was all pumice.

 

Though I personally think Celestia's power might be tied up in some way that she can't access it instantly, without risking more than simply losing that fight would cost. That feels more appropriate to me.

[Cwanky 17,602]

The short answer is yes and no. 

 

When analyzing a character like Queen Chrysalis in regards to power levels, you have to specify more than just the basics. Much like Lord Tirek, her power varies greatly based upon how much she has, Tirek's power is based on how much magic he absorbs. In Chrysalis' case, its all about how much love and positive emotion she has. You can't measure her power on a definite level like Superman or Hulk, it varies far too much.

 

For the sake of illustration, Chrysalis could be anywhere from as weak as a regular pony or worse, to infinitely stronger than Celestia or perhaps Discord, assuming she was feeding off the positive emotion of a very large population on the planet, and that her powers don't overload.

 

Of course "the power of love" itself is so abstract its hard to measure. Whose to say that any other unicorn or pony couldn't provide the same level of power that Shining Armor did for a changeling? His power isn't even love. Simply put more or less, Chrysalis' power is proportional to how much positive emotion she can whore out from a said person(s).

[Pastel 7,630]

Chrysalis won against Celestia thanks to Shining Armor's love (she even said it).

Without his love, Chrysalis is less powerful than her.

Edited August 29, 2014 by Blobulle