Mary Sue?

[SBaby 660]

Mary Sue does not mean more powerful.

 

Mary Sue is made for characters, Personality/Backstory Wise, at least according to roleplaying.

 

Having a bland character, is Mary Sue,  Having a character with a tragic backstory, or an overly happy one is Mary Sue. Having a character that develops a constant personality, or a flawless ability, is also a Mary Sue. (A good way to explain it, is, the Pinkie clones from the pond are Mary Sues.)

 

In this case, being able to solve things, using ONLY the power of "friendship" -No shit, that's how she solved the episode- is considered Mary Sue.

@@Fluttershy_babe, 

 

There's a difference between not accepting and disliking, if you can't even tell them apart, i see you in no position to call anyone childish.

 

To put all this 'Mare E Sue' stuff to rest once and for all, I'm going to give you the actual definition of what a Mary Sue is.

 

Officially speaking, a Mary Sue is a derogatory term for an idealized self-insertion character that an author uses to stand in for either themselves, or in some cases, the reader/audience.  This term originated in Fan Fiction, but has since spread to other mediums.

 

Mary Sues also tend to have no real character flaws, outside of minor ones or exactly one major one that is easily justified (ie Superman is weak to Kryptonite).  And a character doesn't just 'become' a Mary Sue.  They're either one, or they aren't one.

 

Common traits of a Mary Sue, taken from www.wordiq.com:

 

 - Has only sympathetic flaws; Mary Sues may be paraplegic, or dangerously naïve, but are very rarely selfish or petty-minded

 - Can do no wrong. Or, if she does do anything wrong, has strong justification for it.

 - Unique abilities

 - Distinctive physical features (odd-coloured eyes, birthmarks, scars etc)

 - Unusual pet (especially, 'one only she could tame')

 - Deliberately exotic name

 - Name based on that of her author

 - Cultural/racial background very different from her peers (often adopted out of her culture)

 - 21st-century attitudes in a setting where these are unheard-of

 - Close relationship with a major canonical character (long-lost brother, etc)

 - Centrally involved in every part of the story

 - Invokes powers impossible in the canon

 

Admittedly, Twilight does display a couple of these traits, sometimes (such as being involved in alot of the plotlines of the show).  However there is one character in FiM that displays most of these traits ALL THE TIME!  And that is...

 

PRINCESS CELESTIA!!!

 

 - Can do no wrong.  Or if she does, she can justify it:  Can you say, Canterlot Wedding?

 - Unique abilities:  Unless all ponies can control the FREAKING SUN, I'd say she carries that trait.

 - Unusual pet:  A Phoenix, like Dumbledore.

 - Cultural/racial background:  The Princess, been alive for more than 1000 years, she is an Alicorn, an extremely rare and powerful race.

 - 21st-century attitude:  This didn't become apparent until Luna Eclipsed, but it is there.

 - Close relationship with major character:  Twilight is her student, and is practically a daughter to her.

 - Invokes Powers impossible in the canon:  How did she stop the Want It/Need It spell, and how does she RAISE THE FREAKING SUN, for that matter?

 

Does that mean Celestia's a Mary Sue?  Well, that depends on how you look at it.  In one hand, she does display alot of those traits.  But in another, she isn't in the show all that often.  I was simply using this as an example of what a Mary Sue might look like, since she does fit alot of the literal conditions.

 

 

Anyway, that's a Mary Sue in a nutshell.

Edited May 9, 2013 by SBaby

[Pinkazoid 3,493]

To put all this 'Mare E Sue' stuff to rest once and for all, I'm going to give you the actual definition of what a Mary Sue is.

 

Officially speaking, a Mary Sue is a derogatory term for an idealized self-insertion character that an author uses to stand in for either themselves, or in some cases, the reader/audience.  This term originated in Fan Fiction, but has since spread to other mediums.

 

Mary Sues also tend to have no real character flaws, outside of minor ones or exactly one major one that is easily justified (ie Superman is weak to Kryptonite).  And a character doesn't just 'become' a Mary Sue.  They're either one, or they aren't one.

 

Common traits of a Mary Sue, taken from www.wordiq.com:

 

 - Has only sympathetic flaws; Mary Sues may be paraplegic, or dangerously naïve, but are very rarely selfish or petty-minded

 - Can do no wrong. Or, if she does do anything wrong, has strong justification for it.

 - Unique abilities

 - Distinctive physical features (odd-coloured eyes, birthmarks, scars etc)

 - Unusual pet (especially, 'one only she could tame')

 - Deliberately exotic name

 - Name based on that of her author

 - Cultural/racial background very different from her peers (often adopted out of her culture)

 - 21st-century attitudes in a setting where these are unheard-of

 - Close relationship with a major canonical character (long-lost brother, etc)

 - Centrally involved in every part of the story

 - Invokes powers impossible in the canon

 

Admittedly, Twilight does display a couple of these traits, sometimes (such as being involved in alot of the plotlines of the show).  However there is one character in FiM that displays most of these traits ALL THE TIME!  And that is...

 

PRINCESS CELESTIA!!!

 

 - Can do no wrong.  Or if she does, she can justify it:  Can you say, Canterlot Wedding?

 - Unique abilities:  Unless all ponies can control the FREAKING SUN, I'd say she carries that trait.

 - Unusual pet:  A Phoenix, like Dumbledore.

 - Cultural/racial background:  The Princess, been alive for more than 1000 years, she is an Alicorn, an extremely rare and powerful race.

 - 21st-century attitude:  This didn't become apparent until Luna Eclipsed, but it is there.

 - Close relationship with major character:  Twilight is her student, and is practically a daughter to her.

 - Invokes Powers impossible in the canon:  How did she stop the Want It/Need It spell, and how does she RAISE THE FREAKING SUN, for that matter?

 

Does that mean Celestia's a Mary Sue?  Well, that depends on how you look at it.  In one hand, she does display alot of those traits.  But in another, she isn't in the show all that often.  I was simply using this as an example of what a Mary Sue might look like, since she does fit alot of the literal conditions.

 

 

Anyway, that's a Mary Sue in a nutshell.

 

Mhm. But even if, Twilight CAN turn into one, she's developed some of those traits already, who's to say she won't get worse? The way I see it, anything can happen, instead of being optimistic as usual, i'm trying to be realist and seeing it from all the things that could happen. For now i rather stick to the worse and not get my hopes up.

[SBaby 660]

Mhm. But even if, Twilight CAN turn into one, she's developed some of those traits already, who's to say she won't get worse? The way I see it, anything can happen, instead of being optimistic as usual, i'm trying to be realist and seeing it from all the things that could happen. For now i rather stick to the worse and not get my hopes up.

 

Here's the thing though.  Whether she gets worse from here or not is irrelevant, since any changes to her personality will likely be rectified almost immediately via a friendship lesson.  Either Twilight was always a Mary Sue, or she isn't one.  It can't just be sometimes.  If they're not a Mary Sue all the time, then they aren't a Mary Sue.

Edited May 10, 2013 by SBaby

[hawkflame 3,310]

To put all this 'Mare E Sue' stuff to rest once and for all, I'm going to give you the actual definition of what a Mary Sue is.

 

Officially speaking, a Mary Sue is a derogatory term for an idealized self-insertion character that an author uses to stand in for either themselves, or in some cases, the reader/audience.  This term originated in Fan Fiction, but has since spread to other mediums.

 

Mary Sues also tend to have no real character flaws, outside of minor ones or exactly one major one that is easily justified (ie Superman is weak to Kryptonite).  And a character doesn't just 'become' a Mary Sue.  They're either one, or they aren't one.

 

Common traits of a Mary Sue, taken from www.wordiq.com:

 

 - Has only sympathetic flaws; Mary Sues may be paraplegic, or dangerously naïve, but are very rarely selfish or petty-minded

 - Can do no wrong. Or, if she does do anything wrong, has strong justification for it.

 - Unique abilities

 - Distinctive physical features (odd-coloured eyes, birthmarks, scars etc)

 - Unusual pet (especially, 'one only she could tame')

 - Deliberately exotic name

 - Name based on that of her author

 - Cultural/racial background very different from her peers (often adopted out of her culture)

 - 21st-century attitudes in a setting where these are unheard-of

 - Close relationship with a major canonical character (long-lost brother, etc)

 - Centrally involved in every part of the story

 - Invokes powers impossible in the canon

 

Admittedly, Twilight does display a couple of these traits, sometimes (such as being involved in alot of the plotlines of the show).  However there is one character in FiM that displays most of these traits ALL THE TIME!  And that is...

 

PRINCESS CELESTIA!!!

 

 

 

I think it's a little different when a character is being presented from the beginning as, if not a literal God, then the closest thing to it.  Yes she's special, but she's kind of earned that, having been ruler for over 1000 years. 

 

To me, Cadence feels more Mary Sue -sih than anyone, especially how she's an alicorn, has the power of love, no real faults or personality quirks shown so far, and everyone just seems to automatically love her. 

 

Personally I wouldn't call Twilight a Mary Sue just yet, though IMO she has gotten less interesting over the last season or so.

[SBaby 660]

I think it's a little different when a character is being presented from the beginning as, if not a literal God, then the closest thing to it.  Yes she's special, but she's kind of earned that, having been ruler for over 1000 years. 

 

To me, Cadence feels more Mary Sue -sih than anyone, especially how she's an alicorn, has the power of love, no real faults or personality quirks shown so far, and everyone just seems to automatically love her. 

 

Personally I wouldn't call Twilight a Mary Sue just yet, though IMO she has gotten less interesting over the last season or so.

 

 

Cadence would be a candidate for a possible Sue, except for one thing, and this is what requires people to establish their own opinions on the subject, because it really depends on how you look at it.  With Cadence, she hasn't really been in all that many episodes.  She appeared in a few, two of which were centered around her character (counting 2-parters as 2 episodes, and one of which, she was a disguised villain for the majority of anyway).  The point is, outside of her initial episodes, she really hasn't been all that important to the plot.

 

Celestia on the other hand is essential to the plot, due to the fact that her character tends to cause the most change in the show (with Alicorn Twilight's debut being the most recent change).  So she tends to be a better candidate for being a Sue, though with her limited appearance in the show, that's once again left up to perspective.

Edited May 10, 2013 by SBaby

[hawkflame 3,310]

Cadence would be a candidate for a possible Sue, except for one thing, and this is what requires people to establish their own opinions on the subject, because it really depends on how you look at it.  With Cadence, she hasn't really been in all that many episodes.  She appeared in a few, two of which were centered around her character (counting 2-parters as 2 episodes, and one of which, she was a disguised villain for the majority of anyway).  The point is, outside of her initial episodes, she really hasn't been all that important to the plot.

 

Celestia on the other hand is essential to the plot, due to the fact that her character tends to cause the most change in the show (with Alicorn Twilight's debut being the most recent change).  So she tends to be a better candidate for being a Sue, though with her limited appearance in the show, that's once again left up to perspective.

 

The problem with adapting the term Mary Sue" here is that it's originally a term for an OC in a single story fan fiction based on an existing franchise.  So yeah, it's a little tricky to define in the case of a character appearing in the actual canon of the show.  Does the character have to be important to the overall arc of the series in this case, or is it enough for the character to be important in the individual stories in which she's featured?  I suppose it's up to each individual to decide that for himself.

 

But like I said, I think it's different when it's established that a character is established from the beginning as both a ruler and the closest thing to an actual deity. I think that by establishing from the beginning that she's at the top of the pyramid, she has great power, and she has been ruling for centuries, and she's not the focus of any of the stories she's in, that makes her alittle different from a Mary Sue, IMO.

[Trixie the Greatest 130]

Unfortunately, this may not grow out of the fact she just got turned into a similar being like Celestia, but a possible fact of how she will go on about herself when the next season approaches.

 

Maybe not a mary sue, but she might get a whole lot confident than what she was previously.

[TasteTheRainboom 82]

Celestia is the only Mary Sue in the show, maybe shes not but problem is we dont really know much about her, the only wierd thing is everyone is pretty scared of her, maybe theres something we dont know or maybe its cuzz she sent her sister to the moon, who knows

[Cocodrillo 1,565]

Twiley is no Mary Sue. She's always been more powerful than the rest of the mane6 because: she is studying and practicing all the time. On the other hand, when it comes to flying, she will never be as good as Rainbow Dash, who exercises and generally flies daily. Thus, she is more powerful than the rest only when it comes to magic.

Also, Mary Sue is someone perfect, with no mistake. While Twiley is pretty much anti-social, overly organisated and obsessed with doing well on tests, studies&practices a lot, tends to take Spike for granted.. If she were a Mary Sue, she would be social beast, everyone would love her, everyone would think she is hot just by passing by, she would never need any list because she would be able to keep everything in her mind, she would not be stressed about the tests because the test would somehow always come out to be done well WHILE she wouldn't need to study, because, basicly, she would know EVERYTHING somehow...

Alicorn =/= Mary Sue.

 

 

 

If anybody is a Mary Sue, it's Cadence. She's a world peace advocate, charity worker, wildlife conservationist, organ donor, children's book author, and the freely elected ruler of her own country.

Agreed. Pretty much.

[Rye_B_P 53]

In my honest opinion  a "Mary Sue" refers to character that is bland is "good at everything" and has "no weaknesses".  Twilight may be an Alicorn now , but she still has her weaknesses, at least in personality and traits, just like the other characters.  I honestly do not believe the whole "Alicorn = Mary/Gary Sue" as I see so many people are quick to claim in fan fiction and on the show.  So what if we have another Alicorn, that does not take away from the character, but adds to their abilities.

 

I think the reason some people are upset at Twilight becoming an Alicorn, would be, because of how they are afraid that she will now become less interesting, due to her higher status.  Honestly as long as the characters have strengths AND weaknesses, then they are not a Mary/Hary Sue.

 

 

[Thundershock 310]

Now just because Twilight is an alicorn that doesn't really mean shes a Mary Sue.The only thing that really happened to her is that she got wings and is a princess now not too much of a change (Ok a big change ).She does have alot of things shes not good at,too.

[Pripyat Pony 2,608]

She is simply gifted with magic, nothing more. Gaining a status boost does not make you Mary Sue. Gaining more power does not make you a Mary Sue. I've never understood this Mary Sue. She was already overpowered in a sense. Now she may have more magical abilities and princesshood, but she is just beginning with that. I don't see her as Mary Sue.

 

This. I for one am tired of people misusing the Mary Sue tag. A Mary Sue is defined this way:

 

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Mary-Sue

 

A female character who is so perfect that she is annoying. The name originated in a very short Star Trek story that mocked the sort of female characters who showed up in fanfiction. It usually refers to original female characters put into fanfiction, but can refer to any character.

 

Mary-Sues are characters who are usually extraordinarily gorgeous, amazingly talented, unusually powerful, and exceedingly attractive to whoever the author has a crush on. They often possess ridiculously fancy and pretentious first names -- Angel, Raven, Jewel, Lorelei Bianca Julia Marizza Snape -- and are very, very annoying.

 

Mary-Sue is often abbreviated to 'Sue.' The male equivelant is either Marty-Stu or Gary-Stu.

 

 

Far too many people slap that label on any character who's talented, beautiful or special in a particular way (for example, in this context, being an alicorn). The thing is, you can have a talented or beautiful character as long as you balance them out with reasonable flaws.

 

For example, a beautiful character could be vain and arrogant. A talented character could be antisocial or boastful. Basically, a Mary Sue is a character which is too one sided; they have far too many positive traits and not enough negative ones.

 

Twilight has plenty of negative traits; she's still a bit antisocial, she panics easily, she's a bit singleminded and doesn't always take advice. She's not perfect and the story doesn't always revolve around her. She certainly doesn't save the day every time; remember the Crystal Kingdom?

 

It's like people who call any OC a Mary Sue, or any alicorn character a Mary Sue. It just shows that they're not really thinking about what the term really means. "You use that word. I don't think it means what you think it means".

[Umbral Noir 1,556]

I don't think Twilight's become a Mary Sue. Remember "Lesson Zero?"

 

Does this really look like a Mary Sue? Every character has flaws, even the main characters. Just because she's become a princess doesn't mean it will make her a perfect pony.

[SBaby 660]

I don't think Twilight's become a Mary Sue. Remember "Lesson Zero?"

 

Does this really look like a Mary Sue? Every character has flaws, even the main characters. Just because she's become a princess doesn't mean it will make her a perfect pony.

 

Exactly.  If anything, Celestia is a better candidate for being a Mary Sue than any of the other ponies in Equestria. 

 

First of all, she has no fundamental flaws.  Name one major character flaw that she's clearly displayed.  It can't be done.  Everything that she's done has been easily justifiable within the context of the story.  Ergo, she has no flaws.

 

Second, she is almost as central to the plot as Twilight Sparkle has been (after all, who's been getting all the letters from the ponies?). 

 

Third, she controls the FREAKING SUN!  Unless you can name one other pony in Equestria that has this ability, this becomes an ability that no other character possesses.

 

Finally, and this is a big one.  She effects the most change in the series.  It was Celestia that took Twilight as a student because of her magical power.  It was Celestia that put the mane 6 on the path to the Elements of Harmony (as she personally admits at the end of the second part of the pilot).  It was Celestia that let Twilight stay in Ponyville to report on the magic of friendship, which essentially set up the status quo for the show.  And guess who's grand plan ultimately resulted in Twilight becoming an Alicorn, not to mention a Princess?  Celestia!

 

That's alot of traits.

 

Mind you, this could change with future episodes, if they decide to give her more character development.  But the way things are now, she's displaying more traits than any other character in the series.

Edited May 14, 2013 by SBaby

[Commander_PonyShep 349]

Just because Twilight gained wings doesn't make her a Mary Sue.  I highly doubt she was a Mary Sue to begin with, even when she was just a unicorn!

 

Who knows?  The S4 two-part premiere might have Twilight learn that, even as an alicorn, she would still have to depend on her friends as she always did in the past.  After all, she learned that same lesson in G.M. Berrow's Twilight Sparkle and The Crystal Heart Spell, where she learned that her friends had as much of a say in politics as she did, and that she should listen to them in order to become a full-fledged leader, rather than shun them and only listen to herself.

 

That, and Meghan McCarthy confirming that Twilight is neither all-powerful nor immortal.

[Justin ZW 396]

I don't like the term Mary Sue, mainly because it has been used so many times and for so many different things that it doesn't really mean much of anything anymore.

 

However I viewed the difference in power/importance as something that I'd prefer to be minimized, rather than expanded upon and magnified. I recognize that there is the possiblilty that this change will make her less interesting and more focused on than I would like, but as that hasn't happened, I'm withholding any allegations. We will see.

How can she be focused on any more? All of the big episodes with important plots have her at the dead center. The only way it could focus on her more is if she goes back to Canterlot and the other mane 6 don't.

[Budding Night 1,043]

Silly People, Twilie isn't Mare Sue! She still has all of her flaws and stuff, she's same ol' Twilight - just with wing and.. Bigger responsibilities!

 

(Plus, according to 'Hot Minute with Twilight Sparkle', she can't fly right away)

Edited June 11, 2013 by Budding Night

[SBaby 660]

You know, people are funny.  Back when I talked about Celestia being a Mary Sue before Season 3 aired, people left and right defended her.  They were like 'Celestia isn't a Mary Sue.  She was defeated by the Changelings.'.  They went off on me and told me that I didn't know what a Mary Sue was, even when I provided an official definition of what one is.

 

It's just funny how things change so much, when you tack wings onto someone's favorite character.  Now the people that were telling me that Celestia isn't a Mary Sue are the same people that are calling Twilight a Mary Sue.  It really is the definition of irony.

 

Then you've got these people that are assuming that the show is going to focus entirely on her and not do anything with the other characters.  Instead of telling you what it means to assume, I've got a question.  Says who?

 

Anyway, to answer the question, no.  I don't think Twilight is a Mary Sue just because she's an Alicorn now.

[Shanks 10,816]

It's just funny how things change so much, when you tack wings onto someone's favorite character.  Now the people that were telling me that Celestia isn't a Mary Sue are the same people that are calling Twilight a Mary Sue.  It really is the definition of irony.

The reason why I don't believe that Celestia is a Mary Sue is because even though she is the closest to actually being one she is not one mainly due to her role in the story. She is not a main character but is a secondary/supporting character, she is portrayed as being overpowered and having almost no flaws in large part because of her role as teacher and mentor. Plenty of characters similar to Celestia are portrayed in a similar fashion from Master Splinter from the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles and Master Yoda in Star Wars. Both of them could easily have been classified as Gary Stu's if they were main characters instead of supporting characters.

 

Since Twilight is a main character and not a secondary/supporting character she can't go quite as far into Mary Sue territory without actually becoming one. The good news is that she is not a Mary Sue and thanks to the success of Equestria Girls is far less likely to become one than I and many others originally feared but the bad news is twilicorn's introduction was still seriously flawed and it is of course still possible that its execution can still be botched further.

[SBaby 660]

The reason why I don't believe that Celestia is a Mary Sue is because even though she is the closest to actually being one she is not one mainly due to her role in the story. She is not a main character but is a secondary/supporting character, she is portrayed as being overpowered and having almost no flaws in large part because of her role as teacher and mentor. Plenty of characters similar to Celestia are portrayed in a similar fashion from Master Splinter from the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles and Master Yoda in Star Wars. Both of them could easily have been classified as Gary Stu's if they were main characters instead of supporting characters.

 

Since Twilight is a main character and not a secondary/supporting character she can't go quite as far into Mary Sue territory without actually becoming one. The good news is that she is not a Mary Sue and thanks to the success of Equestria Girls is far less likely to become one than I and many others originally feared but the bad news is twilicorn's introduction was still seriously flawed and it is of course still possible that its execution can still be botched further.

 

Two things.  First, both Splinter and Yoda have major character flaws.  Both characters have screwed up, big time.  Yoda in particular, made a lot of mistakes, especially when he was younger.  He wasn't always the perfect Jedi Master that we know him as in the movies.  He was actually very pompous and arrogant as a kid.

 

Celestia on the other hand, hasn't really made any mistakes or shown any character flaws.  But the reason I haven't mentioned the Mary Sue thing lately when it comes to Celestia, is because there's a good chance we might see Celestia's past this season.  After all, Nightmare Moon is supposed to make an appearance in one of the Season 4 episodes.  And what better episode to see her in, than one that deals with Celestia's past?

 

Second, I promise you will see Twilight make mistakes this season.