Is Celestia a manipulator who steals free will?

[ThunderShock1 24]

Some people think that Celestia is a manipulator because she basically trained Twilight Sparkle to become a princess even though it isn't necessarily what Twilight wanted or excpected.

 

I'd like to think of it like this:

 

No matter what intentions Celestia had, TWILIGHT had to do the work and follow through on it.  Celesita may have set her on the path, but Twilight walked down it.  And in the end, she and Equestria are better off for it.

[DITR 180]

No, she is the benevolent and wise ruler of Equestria. She is not a troll, a tyrant, or a molester. Sometimes I feel like I'm the only one that likes Celestia more than Luna. Hopefully the new comic coming out will develop her character, because the writers did an amazing job with developing the character of Luna.

[ThunderShock1 24]

No, she is the benevolent and wise ruler of Equestria. She is not a troll, a tyrant, or a molester. Sometimes I feel like I'm the only one that likes Celestia more than Luna. Hopefully the new comic coming out will develop her character, because the writers did an amazing job with developing the character of Luna.

 

Oh don't get me wrong, I like Celestia too.  She's one of my favorite characters.  I'm just commenting on what some people may interpret about her.

 

I really hope she and Luna gets some more development in Season 4.  It's been FAR overdue.

[Twi Rubix 726]

Celestia is in no way a manipulator. Twilight is Celestia's student. Therefore, she wants to do whatever the princess wants her to do. If she really does object to it, she may speak up if she cannot handle being a princess. Not to mention it's more or less her destiny since her cutie mark relates to the Elements of Harmony. Besides, she is the ruler of Equestria, but it doesn't mean she's heartless or orders ponies to do everything her way. I think she's rather loose to be honest, aside from when Equestria is in trouble.

 

 

Sometimes I feel like I'm the only one that likes Celestia more than Luna.

I too like Celestia more.

[Forlong 1,726]

You can't "steal" free will.  Well, technically, in the terms of the show; you can.  Discord's corruption spell and the "want it, need it" spell.  However those have easy to spot side effects.  There is no way to fully strip ponies of their free will.

 

Manipulating somepony does not negate their own choices.

[~StatesTheOblivious~ 1,795]

This topic amuses me.

 

No, she is the benevolent and wise ruler of Equestria. She is not a troll, a tyrant, or a molester. Sometimes I feel like I'm the only one that likes Celestia more than Luna. Hopefully the new comic coming out will develop her character, because the writers did an amazing job with developing the character of Luna.

 

Being benevolent is not necessarily contradictory to being manipulative. If your goals are the higher good and being a potent and therefore accepted leader, you also have to make sure that the people trust in you. To fortify your position the people have to believe in you. That is not really manipulative in the classic malevolent way, but also a form of manipulation, even though the people let it happen and you're doing it by causing good. Sometimes the end justifies the means if your end is not something that is only a good thing for yourself. Of course Celestia is not simply a troll, tyrant or a molester, but she is also not seen that way by her subjects and so there is no to her need to act like one. Everyone trusts her.

 

Celestia is in no way a manipulator. Twilight is Celestia's student. Therefore, she wants to do whatever the princess wants her to do. If she really does object to it, she may speak up if she cannot handle being a princess. Not to mention it's more or less her destiny since her cutie mark relates to the Elements of Harmony. Besides, she is the ruler of Equestria, but it doesn't mean she's heartless or orders ponies to do everything her way. I think she's rather loose to be honest, aside from when Equestria is in trouble.

 

And that's the point. If Twilight wouldn't believe in Celestia's "competence", she would not be able to accept all of her decisions, advice and the opportunities she granted Twilight. But she does. Even if Celestia's behavior is not intended to be manipulative, it is manipulative because Twilight simply cannot not trust her. Twilight owes her everything. Everything she achieved, every good that happened in her life that we see in the episodes. How could she, while believing in Celestia's actions, ever doubt any of her actions without restrictions? Twilight is even ready to rather doubt in herself than in her teacher, shown in "Lesson Zero".

 

In "A Canterlot Wedding" their whole relation was very strange. Twilight was right. Celestia was wrong. Celestia was not able to protect. And then she didn't even excuse for her mistake and everyone simply forgot about what happened. Celestia is the perfect ruler because she is not seen in another way.

 

And you bring up another point. Is it Twilight's destiny to be a princess because it is her destiny or because Celestia set the path for her because she sees the need for a new princess? You can't answer that question by now. We simply don't know it, but stating that it is so is also not really right.

 

So... now something about free will.

 

You can't take it away because most people think that free will is something that works independent from pretty much everything it relies on. Free will is predetermined by the situation, your abiility to forsee, your emotions, your experiences, your preferences, your personality. Simply dependend on everything. Whenever you choose, you just have a limited choice because some choices are simply not possible for you to make. An altruist will not even think about making an absolute egoistic decision. A mother who loves her child would always sacrifice herself instead of letting her child die. Your free will is only there to give you the ability of choosing out of limited, possible selection options.

 

So you can't take away free will, but the free will can be influenced from the outside.

[IronPonyApplejack 318]

No, because as evidenced by "cutie marks", in the land of Equestria, destiny is absolute and inevitable. And as Celestia pointed out, this was Twilight's destiny. Twilight was always meant to become a princess. Celestia was simply playing her role in what was destined to happen.

[ThunderShock1 24]

No, because as evidenced by "cutie marks", in the land of Equestria, destiny is absolute and inevitable. And as Celestia pointed out, this was Twilight's destiny. Twilight was always meant to become a princess. Celestia was simply playing her role in what was destined to happen.

 

But what does that say about Equestrian society?  I mean, what if a pony doesn't like their cutie mark?  How do they handle that situation?  Has it ever come up?  What if a pony wants to do something else in direct contradiciton to their cutie mark?

[IronPonyApplejack 318]

But what does that say about Equestrian society?  I mean, what if a pony doesn't like their cutie mark?  How do they handle that situation?  Has it ever come up?  What if a pony wants to do something else in direct contradiciton to their cutie mark?

 

It says it's a cartoon show for young girls, my friend. That's how their universe works. And we have yet to see a single pony that dislikes their cutie mark. Look at the CMC. What does everypony keep telling them? To search for it by doing things they already love to do and are good at.

[~StatesTheOblivious~ 1,795]

It says it's a cartoon show for young girls, my friend. That's how their universe works. And we have yet to see a single pony that dislikes their cutie mark. Look at the CMC. What does everypony keep telling them? To search for it by doing things they already love to do and are good at.

 

But that means for the CMC that they would have to embrace their destiny. And that's a decision, a realization. Not something that works on it's own. Otherwise they wouldn't even search for their special talents.

[IronPonyApplejack 318]

But that means for the CMC that they would have to embrace their destiny. And that's a decision, a realization. Not something that works on it's own. Otherwise they wouldn't even search for their special talents.

 

But that's the whole point of the CMC right now. They don't get that. They don't understand it. They "want it nooooooow". They don't yet understand that it's a part of who they are, and it will happen, but it simply will happen when the time is right.

[~StatesTheOblivious~ 1,795]

But that's the whole point of the CMC right now. They don't get that. They don't understand it. They "want it nooooooow". They don't yet understand that it's a part of who they are, and it will happen, but it simply will happen when the time is right.

 

But that still doesn't mean that their destinies, that everything they will do from that point on is something only connected to their Cutiemarks and their special talents. There are too many situations in the show that simply "act" against a such simplified concept of destiny.

[IronPonyApplejack 318]

But that still doesn't mean that their destinies, that everything they will do from that point on is something only connected to their Cutiemarks and their special talents. There are too many situations in the show that simply "act" against a such simplified concept of destiny.

 

It doesn't matter though. It has been stated very clearly in the show that destiny is an active and absolute force in the world of Equestria. Twilight's destiny was to be a princess, and now she is. Seeing Celestia as manipulating her is, in my own opinion, reading too much of our world into theirs.

[~StatesTheOblivious~ 1,795]

It doesn't matter though. It has been stated very clearly in the show that destiny is an active and absolute force in the world of Equestria. Twilight's destiny was to be a princess, and now she is. Seeing Celestia as manipulating her is, in my own opinion, reading too much of our world into theirs.

 

Fine, then let's agree to disagree, because I think that even the concept of destiny in the show is more complex than a path that simply is an one way road with out any forks. And never forget who made it possible for Twilight to become a princess. I know, you can say that's also destiny, but then you don't even need to argue about destiny anymore.

[IronPonyApplejack 318]

Fine, then let's agree to disagree, because I think that even the concept of destiny in the show is more complex than a path that simply is an one way road with out any forks. And never forget who made it possible for Twilight to become a princess. I know, you can say that's also destiny, but then you don't even need to argue about destiny anymore.

 

Agreeing to disagree is a perfectly acceptable way to end a debate, in my book. And I think you make some valid points, which I will ponder. A pleasant day to you, good sir!

[Zoraxe 546]

If someone is predestined to become something than all paths to that thing are also predestined, and all things that effect those things, and so on. So in other words, there is only one path to a predestined outcome, any choice is just an illusion. So if Twilight's predestination is to become a princess than neither she nor Celestia or anybody ells had any free will on the matter, or on anything ells really.

 

But she said "destiny", what your destiny is simply what happens more or less. But knowing your destiny is predestination. But Celestia didn't say it was Twilight's destiny until after it happened.

 

In any case, Celestia out rite says to Twilight, 'Ive been lying to you our entire relationship, I wanted you to learn friendship so you can be turned into a princess'. And the season finale had Celestia send an unfinished spell to Twilight, knowing it would cause all the problems that happened in the resulting episode (making Celestia the antagonist of the episode), knowing twilight would solve the problem and in the process completing the spell, which turns Twilight into a princess. Its master level manipulating.

 

No, Celestia isn't evil, but what is clear as day is that 'Magical Mystery Cure' is a terribly written episode, akin to 'Mysterious Mare Do Well'. This episode says that the end result of the themes of the show and all the friendship lessons, were so that Twilight can be tricked into something.

 

And that the writers are not intending that speaks so poorly of their writing ability it makes me wonder "what the hell happened?!"

Edited August 3, 2013 by Zoraxe

[DaReaper 1,945]

I'm a Celestia fan, she's not trolling by giving twilight 2 tickets to the gala at first she's teaching her a lesson(the way i see it) in friendship, she's not a eveil dictator hell bent on trolling twilight and her friends, even though the pics and thoughts from fans on it are funny, it seems she knows twilight's destiny and is helping along the path with "tests" along the way

[Nerdy Luigi 2,065]

No, she is the benevolent and wise ruler of Equestria. She is not a troll, a tyrant, or a molester. Sometimes I feel like I'm the only one that likes Celestia more than Luna. Hopefully the new comic coming out will develop her character, because the writers did an amazing job with developing the character of Luna.

 

This is the truth. She does quite a great job in her rule of Equestria. And Trollestia and Molestia are both fanmade, disproving any possible point.

[MichaelxXxTrixie 433]

No, Celestia is a wise ruler capable of foreseeing events before they happen whether it be by magic or simply logic. All of these tests she has done on Twilight to prepare her to become her student led her to becoming a princess because of one simple matter, she was Princess Celestias student. What would be the point in being her student if there was going to be no future benefit? Princess Celestia was simply just crafting a ruler.

[Kyoshi Frost Wolf 42,018]

Despite some flaws in episodes, such as slight apparent incompetence, she seems like a good ruler to me. Besides, she helped Twilight get this far and that is awesome, since I love the Twilicorn thing obviously. I just think Celestia needs a bit of backstory. I would love to hear her whole story or at least a part of it. She was obviously doing something right given that she apparently kept Equestria in peace for 1,000 years by herself.

 

Speaking of the Twilicorn thing, I love how some people are saying that Twilight did not want to become a princess. That doesn't seem too accurate and nobody ever really provides any proof to back that up. Sure, she is nervous and she never mentioned it in the show itself, but that does not mean that she doesn't want to be one, she just probably never expected to be one, since she thought that she was not very special, as evidenced by the Royal Wedding. I swear some people really hate change in this fandom, but I digress entirely.

 

That, is my contribution to the discussion.

[Zoraxe 546]

So now Twilight wanted to become an Alicorn? Weather or not that is true is irelevent.

 

Twilight had no choice in the matter, no lame excusses will change that.

Edited July 19, 2013 by Zoraxe

[Ihei 714]

I don't think she is a manipulator and somepony who abuses other ponies' strengths. She was the one who defeated Discord (( With Luna, of course! )), asked the Mane 6 to reform Discord to use his magic for good, and raised Equestria herself and Luna. 

[NightOwl 912]

Celestia for the win! No I don't think she is a manipulator of any sorts as others have said she is a wise and kind ruler for Equestria. 

[Zoraxe 546]

I don't think she is a manipulator and somepony who abuses other ponies' strengths.

 

Celestia for the win! No I don't think she is a manipulator of any sorts as others have said she is a wise and kind ruler for Equestria.

 

Not a manipulater in any way? No offense, but did you two even watch season 3's finale? How ells would you describe Celestia's plan? I'm not saying Celstia is evil or a bad ruler. But manipulative is pretty much totally what she is. To deny that is just... uhg.

 

She was the one who defeated Discord (( With Luna, of course! )), asked the Mane 6 to reform Discord to use his magic for good, and raised Equestria herself and Luna.

 

That is pretty irrelevant to her being manipulative or not.

Edited July 19, 2013 by Zoraxe

[Mr. Critical 434]

Not necessarilly. Celestia is made to resemdle a teacher/authority figure who is sturn but can be fun at time, with what very little we know of her. She may come off as a tyrant at time but her intentions reflect nothing of the sort. She only wants the best for her student and subject, but can't get too involved. If she did, they would learn nothing and Celestia would be more of a mother figure than a guideing ruler. So she may come off as manipulative, and has made mistakes in her life, but in the end hasn't everything worked out to a positive outcome.