KH7672

Oh boy, it's been some time since I've gotten an analysis like this time to see what we've got here: I've talked before about Starlight's roles in her village and a lot of it comes from the dialogue in the premiere by the others. Referring to her as the founder of the village makes the most sense of why her village is arranged the way it is. She founded it so obviously she would be the first to settle in. And being the founder you make a home and then branch out an build around it to make a community. Literally that is why town halls are in the center of town. But okay maybe she could've just put her house at the end of of one side, but what purpose does that serve? As the founder she wants to make the first impression of the village and by being at the end of the row of homes you'll inevitably get to meet them. Having an almost cut through path is pointless for any gathering as it allows visitors to slide through without interaction. Also on the topic on Starlight's house, it's not like she lives fancier than them either and uses some kind of power dynamic to lead the village either. She has just an ordinarily looking house as we assume the rest of them have and she's not even taking advantage of her cutie mark either and speaking of which... Um duh, that's not good leadership, that's literally the reason the Mane 6 were called there by the map. If Starlight were a good leader then the Mane 6 would have no reason to free the villagers. The villagers thought Starlight's version of friendship was an acceptable one in spite of the sacrifice because she did have the charisma to bring the community of together. It felt real but it was based on deception as revealed by her cutie mark still being used. Of course Starlight was a hypocrite, as is the theme for most flaws behind the philosophy of a cult, but the important distinction is that while she did this to please herself it was NOT to have power over others. Starlight was a self centered leader, as in doing things in ways that she would have control of the situation in order to get the best outcome for not just her but for how others perceive her. The village was made to make her happy and feel secure in her philosophy by making others feel secure in her philosophy. There seems to be a warped consensus that Starlight is a one-pony show, and only uses others to get what she wants but doesn't really need them. As if they are her playthings and she will toss them aside when they no longer become of use to her, that the world is meant for her to control that no pony should be above her and her philosophy when the exact opposite is true; she needs them and she knows it. She needs them to reinforce her philosophy is good that it is the right way to friendship, that she is actually doing something right in her life. It doesn't matter if she had to lie a little bit because in the end the friendships they made still felt real right? That's how she sees her place in the village, in the world. And lo and behold one of the best re-enforcers for her philosophy landed right in her village. An alicorn, no a princess, with influence all over Equestria. If she could be indoctrinated into the cult then others would surely follow her lead and prove to Starlight that her methods would work for Equestria and satisfy her fragile ego and where does this come from? Oh yes time to do some deep thinking into probably the most complex backstories in the show. Oh I don't mean it's complex because it's really deep and sympathetic and stuff. No far from it. It's complex because there was a very intended way to interpret it but the execution left far to be desired in order to understand it right making it the easiest backstory to become frustrated with. But anyway here's how I see it and in fact there's really only one part that gets me: Always the first conclusion to jump to and inevitably the incorrect one as she flat out says what the problem is: There seems to be a disregard for the fact that Starlight's motivation in the premiere for being against cutie mark didn't come out of nowhere. AS if her backstory is like that of a villain being like "Why did I want to blow up the capitol, oh because my friend moved away and I was lonely now and that just made me crazy enough to blow up the capitol." I'd agree if that was the logic, well there is no logic a friend moving away and mass homicide do not have a reasonable connection but Starlight's backstory has logic. A friend get's his cutie mark and in turn receiving that cutie mark causes him to leave. She cannot go with him because she doesn't have a cutie mark so she cannot leave. You said it yourself, Sunburst therefore discovered what he truly is and can be himself out in the world but Starlight couldn't. She had no cutie mark, she had no future, she had no connection anymore to her friend. While a little over the top some of this can be attributed to a child's viewpoint on the world and cutie mark. Still cutie marks were a built up as a big thing this season as not even those that receive it truly understand the importance of it sometimes, like Troubleshoes and Diamond Tiara, but even then they do have some future right? What was Starlight's now? Could she make another friend only to have their future be different than hers? I said before Starlight is a self-centered individual with fear of the unknown. The only way to be assured of the future of others is to control it or suppress it, and that's exactly what she does. If she can prove to ponies that they don't need to listen to that mark that determines their future, they'll never have to face it, and they can stay where they are forever, and that's all she wanted. The villagers would never leave her, they'd always be her friends if they didn't have a reason to feel different, walk a different path in life like Sunburst did all those years ago. Now like I said, this is the logic behind the backstory and my defense to why Starlight's character makes sense. What I cannot defend is the mishandling of correctly displaying that logic for the viewers to understand and not jump to the wrong conclusions like they do but that is less on Starlight's character herself and more on her execution which I won't lie and say has been flawless especially in the beginning of her reformation. I will touch on the other points sometime later but for now, this is my defense for her time as a villain character.

Even that though depends how you pull it off and the overall tone the show is going for. Especially with the idea that a political reference doesn't HAVE to be real world political depending on how you characterize them.

I mean it's no problem, it's your thread I guess. Still I'd hate to turn this thread into discussing just Starlight's character for those others who may be want to take part in the initial topic discussion of redemption on other villains. I'd be happy to do so but just let me know if it's fine to do so here or if you'd rather take this specific discussion elsewhere, even personal messages if you want.

Wait what does that episode have to do with redemption of villains? I don't see how that corresponds to the topic or at all what I was talking about. Well except for: I can name a few reasons why this works. One of the biggest is the lessons in the journal came from Season 4. Starlight wasn't in Season 4 and Spike was including providing lessons in it from Power Ponies and Inspiration Manifestation, ergo the readers would have a warped sense of view on him as well. Starlight is an outsider of the book and free to intervene without being criticized by the readers. I also feel the actions given to her fit her personality more. When she says she's going to have "a chat" with someone she's upset with, the audience can feel intimidation more due to her character than if Spike the baby dragon said it. I personally would've liked if they found a way to write Spike out of the episode logically but honestly it's not that big of a deal and there are much more important reasons to criticize the episode beyond her inclusion. It does not really hurt or help her reformed status just treating her like one of the Mane 6's friends, which while not the best executed overall in the series and smartly strayed away from in later Seasons to build her identity more, wasn't that out of place here in the overall context of the series or season.

No need to double post to get my attention. I'm just not on here too much everyday to respond right away. Anyway the tldr of my analysis is to say that your read of the villains that are redeemed being absolved of all responsibility and the victims taking it are not entirely accurate like in the terms of Starlight's both parties agree to look past the repercussions and in terms of Wallflower, the victimized party does find some fault in herself to be apologetic for. In terms of redemption I don't even agree Starlight was redeemed at that moment anyway. And for Wallflower I can agree more to the poor word choice in the execution of the redemption as being not good, but the logic behind the characters actions are still sound enough for me to be at least okay with the over all outcome. In even shorter: no I've never agreed with your feelings on redemption but I can find parts of your analysis true that can be looked at differently to still be okay with redemptions.

It's interesting because you kinda do have a point with the execution of certain reformations, Wallflower especially. However I do want to analyze the writing for each reformation real quick just to show some context you are missing. From the Cutie Re-mark Part 2 right when Twilight, Starlight, and Spike return back and the Mane 5 find them: Notice how Twilight gets to explain the situation to the others and come to her own conclusion with their support. Starlight has no sympathetic influence on the decision to mentor her. Twilight's words also why not explicitly saying what she did was wrong when Starlight accepts punishment doesn't say what she did was understandable and right either. Instead she takes a higher ground and offers Starlight a choice to better herself under her tutelage. Starlight isn't absolved of responsibility of what she did and Twilight doesn't take responsibility for what she did. Instead both parties just agree to look past it and forge ahead with a reformative path in mind to make up for the mistakes that were made. Now Wallflower after Sunset gets her memories back and finally defeated has this exchange: Wallflower apologizes but you're right that immediately afterwards Sunset does too. This is where I can see what you're talking about. Wallflower tries to take all the responsibility for her actions, but Sunset turns around and says it's okay. That can definitely be misconstrued as saying Wallflower did what she did understandably fine and Sunset has to accept some responsibility for her actions. And yet there are certain parts this apology makes sure to avoid to keep the implications as evident. Sunset at least doesn't say it was wrong for her to be mean or not to forgive. Wallflower doesn't justify further that she should be forgiven or emphasized with saying things like "you have to understand" and Twilight just gives empathy herself. There is less of a choice between the act of forgiveness between the victim and the wrong-doer but that may be what the point was to teach from Sunset is to make that kind of decision when you do have some part in it granted however small it may be in the long run. It's tough to say as unlike Starlight where she impacted a lot more of the world, you said it yourself Wallflower was mainly causing a problem for herself and only herself until Sunset came along. So when Sunset does find shared responsibility in her actions and expresses it logically it's not explicitly telling the audience that Wallflower has no blame but that you can make a choice to forgive and help someone who is hurting themselves when they just happen to lash out at you.

I would like to point out this section on something that is touched upon by one of the arguments against Starlight being that she teaches you you just have to apologize and everything works out okay and I disagree as it undermines and important distinction in every situation she does so is that she never apologizes simply because she thinks it's all it will take to make up for the situation. The village- She apologizes but doesn't expect to be forgiven as she lowers herself and provides the chance for the villagers to react to her arrival and not influence it with how she thinks they should feel. The finale- She apologizes and verbally says she is ready to accept any punishment that they'll give her. The mind control- Apologizes with simply stating her understanding of what she did was wrong, and that she hopes in time she can make it up. Nothing else. No shifting blame on Twilight's lessons, no trying to justify her actions, no expecting of an apology or even penance for the time as she was fully ready to commit to cleaning the mess herself. The cutie mark switch- A quick apology but more in a way of easing the situation and explaining herself as she believes what she did was right and wanted to see if she can convince the royal sisters to see her solution through. The Maulwarf- Initially confesses straight up to Thorax of her rash plan. And then less apologizes but more appropriates the situation to take responsibility for the mess she may have caused, because granted nothing had happened yet. The Discord Banishment- Apologizes not just with words but with compassion and understanding for his perspective and even critiquing her own in the way it was too narrowminded and offers him a compromise in positions. and finally the cart (which is personally my favorite moment of disillusionment from her)- A lot of this comes down to how she views their relationship in as such how strong she believes their friendship to be that she can make decisions for the both of them and she is rightfully knock down from this position. She can't justify anything because Trixie proves there is nothing to justify. Instead it has to all come from Starlight and how she needs to remedy the situation herself. And she does that by first returning the cart and admitting why what she did was wrong and just like the mind control, nothing further else needs to be said from her side. She knows she is in the lower position, Trixie has had the high ground the entire and there is no reason to argue the semantics. Instead after admitting her fault she takes it upon herself to negotiate the trade back. It's also worth noting Starlight doesn't formally apologize until after they return back because it does show there may have been time to let emotions settle before recompense. She's not doing it to make Trixie forgive her more, but to show genuine regret for ruining the trip. All of this essentially is just to explain that Starlight herself as a character handles apologies with the proper context and displaying where the motivation for such needs to come from. I want to point out how this aspect of her character does work in the context of the situation and theming of the show. Now the reaction of those receiving the apology is a different issue and one that has to do more with how you feel the characters should react and I'm not one to encroach on that subject as I do have my explanations but feeling content with each execution is different for every viewer based on your own expectations of the show of which I already can tell we differ.