Is Sweetie Belle a Brat Now?

[The Second Opinion 270]

One thing I decided I want to do with my series is challenge the fandom on the spots where my opinion seems to split from the general consensus. And first up is my contention from my review of For Whom the Sweetie Belle Toils: I think it altered Sweetie Belle into kind of a brat.

 

The video where I make my case can be found here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T1672_3bg-I

 

 

This forum is for debating whether it's true, to see if anyone can refute me. To summarize the case I make in the video;

 

1. Sweetie Belle was never portrayed as a competitive sore loser before: Even when she did attempt to shine and it didn't work out (The Show Stoppers), she was, at most, disappointed in herself for not being as good as she wanted to be. She never lashed out because she was angry at not getting recognition for its own sake. So even if this episodes entire premise holds up (which it doesn't, see #2), her reaction would have been glum and silent, not angry and vengeful.

 

2. Her jealousy complex with Rarity comes across as made up for the episode: The only two examples of one sister "stealing the spotlight" from the other, as Sweetie Belle complains, are both from the episode in question, and the one that apparently sewed the seeds for this conflict - the fifth birthday party - doesn't have even the vaguest of connections to anything we'd been shown before. Sweetie Belle was never portrayed as jealous of Rarity, nor intimidated by her, and even when Rarity flat out told her in Sisterhooves Social that she was doing a bad job, she became frustrated with the rejection, not the lack of credit.

 

3. Sweetie Belle, of all characters, was perhaps the least egoic of the entire main cast: Among the characters concerned with impressing someone else (or timid over their inability to do so) Sweetie Belle would probably be the last one on the list. Where even Pinkie Pie can fall to pieces when she thinks she might be losing her friends' appreciation, it took Sweetie Belle several direct conflicts in Sisterhooves Social just to start getting down on herself. And even among her friends, she's been the least concerned with failing to impress (taking her failure to bowl in The Cutie Pox better than Apple Bloom, etc.). A direct contradiction to her easy-going, fun-loving character - without clear progression - felt jarring and unfitting.

 

While I do think there are possible explanations for her behavior, like preteen angst changing who she is, it does make me appreciate her less as a character. But then, that's my take. What's yours?

[VitalSpark 1,830]

I don't know about you, but how I react to events can vary from day to day. If I'm having a bad day, I might overreact to a minor irritations that I'd just ignore on any other day. Slight character inconsistencies are perfectly realistic.

 

She did something bad; she put it right; she apologised. I don't think she'll be doing it again.

[Jeric 46,850]

Sweetie Belle has shown prior desperation to impress others, and in her mind that desire was unfulfilled once again triggering the jealousy of Rarity. Our minds have a tendency to accociate current emotions with past memories after the fact simply for validation, rather than the memory being the actual genesis. That was my take on her motivations.

[The Second Opinion 270]

I don't know about you, but how I react to events can vary from day to day. If I'm having a bad day, I might overreact to a minor irritations that I'd just ignore on any other day. Slight character inconsistencies are perfectly realistic.

 

She did something bad; she put it right; she apologised. I don't think she'll be doing it again

Yes, but is there any character action you couldn't apply that to? Do the specific actions really match the specific character?

Sweetie Belle has shown prior desperation to impress others, and in her mind that desire was unfulfilled once again triggering the jealousy of Rarity. That was my take on her motivations. 

Has she though? She didn't mind losing the Sisterhooves Social or getting all gutter balls in bowling. Even in Sisterhooves Social, after being shot down four times, she decided bonding time at the social was the way to make it better, not some attempt to impress Rarity.

[Jeric 46,850]

Yes, a common phychological motivation behind being as helpful as she was trying to be is to impress someone. Manifestation of this is typical between the ages of 5 and 12 - related to social validation theories.

[GenderIsAnIllusion 2,177]

Sweetie belle own character was put into question with this episode. That was the entire point of it, to test sweeties own convictions and pry at the weaknesses in her personality.

 

The birthday party adds depth to the plot because it proves her jelousey is a deeper issue than previously expected.

 

Everyone, quite literally everyone has an ego, and can get jelous, and that can make everyone do dumb things.

 

The way I see it, is she got really jelous, did something stupid, regretted it, and then fixed it, because Ultamatey, she does love her older sister, and would never want to see her fail... So no, she's not a brat.... Just a child doing a childish thing. That's all,

[Sunny Shimmer 259]

Sisterhooves social was about getting attention from Rarity and learning that just because someone or somepony gets angry, doesn't mean they don't want you around. Sweetie Belle was acting like a normal child of "I'm here and I'm important and everything revolves around me. When something goes wrong then it is somepony else's fault." so I disagree with point #2

 

As a older brother of 2 little sisters and a younger brother, they tend to be jealous of the older ones. I see it everyday. It doesn't matter if you give a child credit or not when rejection is involved. They usually focus harder on the rejection than the lack of credit or amount of credit given. Hits them harder on the inside because of the way they think.

[The Second Opinion 270]

Yes, a common phychological motivation behind being as helpful as she was trying to be is to impress someone. Manifestation of this is typical between the ages of 5 and 12 - related to social validation theories.

Ah, but now you're thinking of wanting to "impress" someone as a blanket description. When the end goal is to get Rarity to approve of her and want to spend time enjoying each other's company, does that really speak to the same need as wanting applause and praise for her talent, praise that she wants to go specifically to her and not someone else?

Sisterhooves social was about getting attention from Rarity and learning that just because someone or somepony gets angry, doesn't mean they don't want you around. Sweetie Belle was acting like a normal child of "I'm here and I'm important and everything revolves around me. When something goes wrong then it is somepony else's fault." so I disagree with point #2

 

As a older brother of 2 little sisters and a younger brother, they tend to be jealous of the older ones. I see it everyday. It doesn't matter if you give a child credit or not when rejection is involved. They usually focus harder on the rejection than the lack of credit or amount of credit given. Hits them harder on the inside because of the way they think.

Well, one of the points I tried to make here is that taking rejection hard is not necessarily the same as taking rejection hard AND in character.

Sweetie belle own character was put into question with this episode. That was the entire point of it, to test sweeties own convictions and pry at the weaknesses in her personality.

 

The birthday party adds depth to the plot because it proves her jelousey is a deeper issue than previously expected.

 

Everyone, quite literally everyone has an ego, and can get jelous, and that can make everyone do dumb things.

 

The way I see it, is she got really jelous, did something stupid, regretted it, and then fixed it, because Ultamatey, she does love her older sister, and would never want to see her fail... So no, she's not a brat.... Just a child doing a childish thing. That's all,

Yeah, I would never deny that we've never seen Sweetie Belle's ego. But it's usually been when somebody brought the fight to her. Jealousy to begin with isn't something I noticed before.

[VitalSpark 1,830]

 

 

Yes, but is there any character action you couldn't apply that to?

 

Certainly other characters could overreact to a minor problem that caught them on a bad day, realise that they acted badly, apologise and make things better.

 

But the specific overreaction, that of sabotage, is more appropriate for the younger characters. Older characters would be likely to react differently, such as socially excluding the pony they felt had wronged them (for example the "silent treatment"; or if it was Pinkie she might not invite them to a party which everypony else was invited to, because I don't think she could handle being silent).

 

You see sabotage also in One Bad Apple, though here Sweetie Belle was at least initially, the most mature of the CMCs, but her friends sway her into humiliating Babs. Perhaps Sweetie Belle's friends are a bad influence on her.

[Silver Letter 1,832]

That's amusing. I have started to say that "For Whom the Sweetie Belle Toils" was the first time we got to see what I am calling "Sweetie Brat". She was very immature and simply irrational in her treatment of Rarity. She needed a slapping. Hopefully she's learned a lesson and won't be written like that again, at least without good reason.

[Wind Chaser 4,768]

What's very noticeable in "Twilight Time" is that you really see the Crusaders begin to exhibit personality traits of their big sisters that have rubbed off on them. Apple Bloom begins to take charge and act as the mediator of a discussion like Applejack, Scootaloo picks up Rainbow Dash's showy attitude, and Sweetie Belle becomes a bit of an attention horse like Rarity. It seems as if it's the next natural progression for these characters, a somewhat expected consequence of being around them for so long.

 

So for Sweetie Belle to want to be more of a star seems to be the next logical step they could have taken for this character, and it seems believeable considering who she's living with.

[Misty Rose 3,216]

She did act like a brat in For Whom The Sweetie Belle Toils, but she did learn her lesson in the end. I just hope she doesn't exhibit the same behavior again in the future

[Sunny Shimmer 259]

She was a brat in For Whom the Sweetie Belle Tolls but I still don't understand point #2 because she didn't need to exhibit jealous feelings towards Rarity during Sisterhooves Social. It wouldn't have made sense for her to be jealous of Rarity at that time. She was however jealous of apple bloom for a short while during that episode.

[The Second Opinion 270]

What's very noticeable in "Twilight Time" is that you really see the Crusaders begin to exhibit personality traits of their big sisters that have rubbed off on them. Apple Bloom begins to take charge and act as the mediator of a discussion like Applejack, Scootaloo picks up Rainbow Dash's showy attitude, and Sweetie Belle becomes a bit of an attention horse like Rarity. It seems as if it's the next natural progression for these characters, a somewhat expected consequence of being around them for so long.

 

So for Sweetie Belle to want to be more of a star seems to be the next logical step they could have taken for this character, and it seems believeable considering who she's living with.

Actually, that's exactly what I brought up at the end of my video review. The one explanation I thought could hold up is that they're writing in a case of puberty and preteen angst, seen in Twilight Time and even perhaps in Sleepless in Ponyville, where her singing is suddenly terrible.

 

But as I also pointed out, that doesn't mean you have to like it. As Cutie Mark Chronicles pointed out, characters don't always change when they get older, and the more earnest quality that Sweetie Belle had before was perhaps her most endearing trait. And meanwhile, there's a lot to dislike in her new depiction. 

Edited January 5, 2015 by The Second Opinion

[The Second Opinion 270]

She did act like a brat in For Whom The Sweetie Belle Toils, but she did learn her lesson in the end. I just hope she doesn't exhibit the same behavior again in the future

Funny enough, I did think they might have been going for a depiction of her getting older and changing into not quite the same character. (The voice actress is growing up too, after all.) It could explain her change in motivation, but yeah, it doesn't seem to be everyone's favorite idea.

She was a brat in For Whom the Sweetie Belle Tolls but I still don't understand point #2 because she didn't need to exhibit jealous feelings towards Rarity during Sisterhooves Social. It wouldn't have made sense for her to be jealous of Rarity at that time. She was however jealous of apple bloom for a short while during that episode.

That's what I get for using my favorite example, instead of an easier one to summarize :/

 

Admittedly, I brought it up there as kind of an extra add on. But Toils told us Sweetie Belle has always been harboring jealousy towards Rarity and her capabilities, and she never actually lamented her own capabilities in Social, even when Rarity was directly attacking them. If she felt this need to prove that she was capable, surely she would have expressed some kind of longing there. But instead, she only noted the idea that she was "goofing everything up" offhand, without ever seeming particularly bothered by it, in and of itself. As you noted, it only made her feel the need for a sister who was fun and welcoming, like Apple Bloom had, not the need to confirm that she could do a good job on the chores she attempted.

Certainly other characters could overreact to a minor problem that caught them on a bad day, realise that they acted badly, apologise and make things better.

 

But the specific overreaction, that of sabotage, is more appropriate for the younger characters. Older characters would be likely to react differently, such as socially excluding the pony they felt had wronged them (for example the "silent treatment"; or if it was Pinkie she might not invite them to a party which everypony else was invited to, because I don't think she could handle being silent).

 

You see sabotage also in One Bad Apple, though here Sweetie Belle was at least initially, the most mature of the CMCs, but her friends sway her into humiliating Babs. Perhaps Sweetie Belle's friends are a bad influence on her.

Something I pointed out in my video, actually, was that I could much sooner see this kind of thing happening with Applejack and Apple Bloom, even with the fact that they're depicted as getting along more easily. As you pointed out with Babs Seed, Sweetie Belle just isn't someone who seems to think quite like that. I don't think what's identifiable is necessarily always the same as what fits the particular character.

I don't think that she is a brat.

Other than the instances in which she acted how she did, she is realky sweet and kind.

Yeah, but this one seemd like it wanted to change her up a bit.

[AlbaTross 1,586]

Welcome to the Brony forums! You may know my by my username on Channel Awesome, which is also Tross. What brings you to our humble neck of the woods? As for the subject at hand, I'm sure I weighed in when you initially posted your vid, but I agree that Sweetiebelle is quite different in this episode than what she used to be. I chalk it up to a change in writers which happens with a series that has multiple writers, especially given that some left after season 2. I am however still looking forward to seeing how Sweetiebelle and other characters are portrayed in season 5. I would hazard a guess that Applebloom's Luna dream episode will pop up in this next season.

[sweetolebob18 728]

I watched your video & you make some good points.  I'm the oldest of 5 kids & this is the way the kids react.  In season 1, IMO the CMCs were 8-12 yeas old.  Now, they are 2 years older & stuff that you used to let go by starts wearing on you. I also think part of the reason SB doesn't like to sing in public is that she feels R is better at it.  (R is manager of Pony Tones & 1 of the singers).

 

Also, IMO, singing is going to be her Cutie Mark & until she can admit that to herself she is NEVER going to get her Cutie Mark.  If she ever writes an autobiography, the part on her childhood is going to be called "Living in the Shadows" (or something along those lines).  It is tough to have "The Golden Girl" as an older sister, everything you do she has done 1st & better.  Season 5 could have an episode or 2 about this.  I also agree, this makes SB a MUCH less likeable character.

 

Maybe Luna taught her a lesson & she can help one of her friends deal w a similar problem.  (As you said, AB looks like a plausible choice) 

[The Second Opinion 270]

Welcome to the Brony forums! You may know my by my username on Channel Awesome, which is also Tross. What brings you to our humble neck of the woods? As for the subject at hand, I'm sure I weighed in when you initially posted your vid, but I agree that Sweetiebelle is quite different in this episode than what she used to be. I chalk it up to a change in writers which happens with a series that has multiple writers, especially given that some left after season 2. I am however still looking forward to seeing how Sweetiebelle and other characters are portrayed in season 5. I would hazard a guess that Applebloom's Luna dream episode will pop up in this next season.

Thank you!

 

Like I said in the video I paired with this, setting up threads here is a great way to make these subjects a two-way street. I'll be looking forward to more of seeing what everyone thinks.

 

And yeah, that's another very legitimate possibility, that somebody decided they had a "better" vision for Sweetie Belle. That definitely leaves a lot hanging on her episodes next season. (And yeah, I guess if the pattern continues, Apple Bloom's Luna nightmare is due next season.)

I watched your video & you make some good points.  I'm the oldest of 5 kids & this is the way the kids react.  In season 1, IMO the CMCs were 8-12 yeas old.  Now, they are 2 years older & stuff that you used to let go by starts wearing on you. I also think part of the reason SB doesn't like to sing in public is that she feels R is better at it.  (R is manager of Pony Tones & 1 of the singers).

 

Also, IMO, singing is going to be her Cutie Mark & until she can admit that to herself she is NEVER going to get her Cutie Mark.  If she ever writes an autobiography, the part on her childhood is going to be called "Living in the Shadows" (or something along those lines).  It is tough to have "The Golden Girl" as an older sister, everything you do she has done 1st & better.  Season 5 could have an episode or 2 about this.  I also agree, this makes SB a MUCH less likeable character.

 

Maybe Luna taught her a lesson & she can help one of her friends deal w a similar problem.  (As you said, AB looks like a plausible choice) 

Very interesting. It'd be worth exploring if Sweetie Belle thinks Rarity is a better singer (assuming Sleepless in Ponyville wasn't their attempt to kill her voice with puberty), although that would leave the question of why she wanted to do designing instead, even though Rarity is also better at that, much more so. 

 

On one hand, I do think kids in these types of shows are made a little on the nice side, so we know they're "innocent." But I think the type of quality they gave Sweetie Belle, a genuine, unconcerned goodwill, runs a little deeper than that and, as I've witnessed firsthand, isn't always something you lose just by getting older and less niave. And yeah, with what we got as the alternative, I would have much rather seen them go that route. (Assuming they really did do it on purpose to grow Sweetie Belle up, that is.) But I do kinda like your idea of Luna's influence making her good at dealing with this problem.

 

And I can also attest as the oldest of four that sometimes kids don't change that much growing up. My siblings were equally as bratty when they hit puberty, no more and no less 

[Tameless 979]

I don't think she is a "brat" but I do see her growing up at a faster pace. Her voice starts to mature and have less squeak in it if you compare from the older seasons. She's a filly, it's all about growing up and finding her special talent.

[The Second Opinion 270]

I don't think she is a "brat" but I do see her growing up at a faster pace. Her voice starts to mature and have less squeak in it if you compare from the older seasons. She's a filly, it's all about growing up and finding her special talent.

Yeah, I did offer her growing up as a possible explanation myself. But if that really is what they had in mind, I think the particular route they chose decreases her likability in a big way (for the moment at least, since her next episode could still take her in a much more appealing direction).

[sweetolebob18 728]

The more I think about this, the more I see the CMCs as part of the next generation of Elements.  I see SB as maybe Rainbow's successor.  She is more the one to go along w the other's ideas & support them.  So, yes, For Whom The Sweetie Belle Toils WAS out of character for her.  Hopefully, it was just a bad hair day & Luna straightened her out.

[Jangocoolguy 433]

I don't think so.

I saw her as a blank slate finally getting some depth.

 

Now if they'd just tell us what the deal is with Scootaloo...

Edited January 6, 2015 by Jangobadass

[The Second Opinion 270]

I don't think so.

I saw her as a blank slate finally getting some depth.

 

Now if they'd just tell us what the deal is with Scootaloo...

Actually, now that you mention it, I kinda thought Apple Bloom was more of a blank slate than either of them. Granted, up through Stare Master, they were pretty much all the same character, but after that, Sweetie Belle really started to convey realistic motivations for someone who would actually be as good natured as she was. And Scootaloo definitely seems to have a less confident version of Rainbow Dash's mindset, someone who wants to be the biggest and the baddest, rather than someone who likes to think she already is.

 

And on the flipside, new characteristics can still be bratty ones. 

[flutterfan12 20]

While, I do think you brought up valid points in the video,  I do  think that as you put, Sweetie  is growing up  and  changing.  Something  else to mull over is that perhaps  Sweetie Belle has  had  these feelings   of living under Rarity's  shadow  for some time now  and  the  costumes was the  thing that pushed her over the edge.  True,  we have never seen this brought up before but that doesn't mean,  Sweetie Belle  didn't  have these feelings.  She could have been  keeping them bottled up  and   she  just exploded on Rarity here.  It was not the best way to handle things  but a lot of us have been in situation not unlike what Sweetie Belle was feeling.

[The Second Opinion 270]

While, I do think you brought up valid points in the video,  I do  think that as you put, Sweetie  is growing up  and  changing.  Something  else to mull over is that perhaps  Sweetie Belle has  had  these feelings   of living under Rarity's  shadow  for some time now  and  the  costumes was the  thing that pushed her over the edge.  True,  we have never seen this brought up before but that doesn't mean,  Sweetie Belle  didn't  have these feelings.  She could have been  keeping them bottled up  and   she  just exploded on Rarity here.  It was not the best way to handle things  but a lot of us have been in situation not unlike what Sweetie Belle was feeling.

Well, one of the points I tried to make in the video was that her past actions also suggested her real feelings weren't in that vicinity either (the bit on Sisterhooves Social and all that). Growing and changing is still a legitimate possibility though, just one that, as they depicted it, is sort of a shame when you were as genuine and likable as Sweetie Belle was.