The Banned Game

[The Recherche 29,965]

Quote

And yet, pretty much all of Science IS just applied mathematics, and the rarified bits of mathematics are REALLY littered with weird terms and symbols 

True, but I just find numbers easier to understand than words, if you know what I mean. 

2 hours ago, CoffeeHoof said:

Banned because of course it isn't - it's an oblate spheroid *tsk*

Banned because it's a damn trapezoid, you blind sheep! 

[CypherHoof 26,479]

Just now, Recherche said:

True, but I just find numbers easier to understand than words, if you know what I mean. 

Ah, but once you get past college mathematics, its rare you see any actual numbers

Plus of course a lot of science is simpler than mathematics - phase diagrams in electronics (for example) are just vectors in the complex space - electricians just use j instead of i because they were already using i for current

 

Just now, Recherche said:

Banned because it's a damn trapezoid, you blind sheep! 

But equestria is flat

[The Recherche 29,965]

2 hours ago, CoffeeHoof said:

Plus of course a lot of science is simpler than mathematics - phase diagrams in electronics (for example) are just vectors in the complex space - electricians just use j instead of i because they were already using i for current

You see, though? This is what I'm talking about!  What does "j" mean? What about "i?" What is a vector? What's a phase diagram?

In contrast, I know what 1,220,745 means just by looking at it. As long as I know how division/multiplication/any other process works, than there's nothing more to understand, I just need to do the problem.

I won't dispute your point about college mathematics due to me still being in high school, but as of right now, I find Algebra easier and more bearable than any field of science. This isn't to say that math is easy or simple, because it's neither... but my whole point is that I think numbers are easier to work with than words, because words have definitions.

2 hours ago, CoffeeHoof said:

But equestria is flat

Banned for equating Equestria to Earth! 

[The Kaeya Simp 13,960]

21 minutes ago, CoffeeHoof said:

But equestria is flat

Banned for making me sad again (I'm already confused about my species)

[CypherHoof 26,479]

5 minutes ago, Recherche said:

You see, though? This is what I'm talking about!  What does "j" mean?

it means the same as "i"

Banned for not paying attention earlier

 

5 minutes ago, Recherche said:

What about "i?"

The complex plane is basically a two-dimensional number line - think of it like a sheet of graph paper; the 'x' axis is the normal "real" numbers, and the 'y' axis is the 'imaginary' number line, abbreviated to 'i'. It turns out that a whole bunch of mathematics just doesn't work in a world where only the "real" numbers exist, but works just fine if you imagine numbers as having two dimensions.  A whole bunch of advanced mathematics is just geometry in two dimensions, with numbers a point in the two dimensional space instead of just along a fixed line.

 

5 minutes ago, Recherche said:

What is a vector?

A vector has both magnitude and direction - didn't you see Despicable Me?

Seriously though, a vector is the origin of the graph (0,0) joined to a point in complex space by a line; as the two axes are at right angles, it is basically the hypotenuse of a right angled triangle, with the base the 'x' axis and the height the 'y' axis distances. It is represented by an arrow (so draw an arrowhead on the imaginary line) and has a magnitude (length, basically) and direction (angle from the 'x' axis - didn't I say this was all just geometry? )

 

5 minutes ago, Recherche said:

What's a phase diagram?

It's a complicated idea in electronics that can be represented simply in complex space - with the real axis representing voltage or current.

 

5 minutes ago, Recherche said:

In contrast, I know what 1,220,745 means just by looking at it. As long as I know how division/multiplication/any other process works, than there's nothing more to understand, I just need to do the problem.

I guess that's most of what you learn at school level - although I did complex math, matrices and so forth at secondary school, that's really college level stuff.

 

5 minutes ago, Recherche said:

I won't dispute your point about college mathematics due to me still being in high school, but as of right now, I find Algebra easier and more bearable than any field of science.

And yet algebra is mathematics without numbers

 

5 minutes ago, Recherche said:

This isn't to say that math is easy or simple, because it's neither... but my whole point is that I think numbers are easier to work with than words, because words have definitions.

So do mathematical operators.  The proofs for zero, one and the addition operator get REALLY deep into set theory, and that's just in the Reals

[The Recherche 29,965]

2 hours ago, CoffeeHoof said:

The complex plane is basically a two-dimensional number line - think of it like a sheet of graph paper; the 'x' axis is the normal "real" numbers, and the 'y' axis is the 'imaginary' number line, abbreviated to 'i'. It turns out that a whole bunch of mathematics just doesn't work in a world where only the "real" numbers exist, but works just fine if you imagine numbers as having two dimensions.  A whole bunch of advanced mathematics is just geometry in two dimensions, with numbers a point in the two dimensional space instead of just along a fixed line.

 

2 hours ago, CoffeeHoof said:

Seriously though, a vector is the origin of the graph (0,0) joined to a point in complex space by a line; as the two axes are at right angles, it is basically the hypotenuse of a right angled triangle, with the base the 'x' axis and the height the 'y' axis distances. It is represented by an arrow (so draw an arrowhead on the imaginary line) and has a magnitude (length, basically) and direction (angle from the 'x' axis - didn't I say this was all just geometry? )

 

2 hours ago, CoffeeHoof said:

It's a complicated idea in electronics that can be represented simply in complex space - with the real axis representing voltage or current.

Okay... now, assuming I'm doing an exam on this, I have to remember all three of these things (and probably more). I have to consciously think about these definitions when I see these three+ terms, and how they interact with each other... and considering that I don't like science very much, tat's a tall order. In another contrast:

f(x) = 6x + 1

If I know the order of operations, and am able to deconstruct this problem, than this really isn't that hard, and doesn't require that I memorize a paragraph long explanation for a word.

I'm sorry if any of this comes across as insulting, I really am... but what exactly don't you understand about this?  Numbers don't have definitions, and symbols(+, -, xy, √)  give instructions. It's all about solving the problem, not knowing the answer to it. I understand why I got the math problem correct; in science, the answer is just what it is... just because.

2 hours ago, CoffeeHoof said:

And yet algebra is mathematics without numbers

I'm looking through my Algebra book right now; I don't see any words in these problems. I'm seeing problems where you need to simplify irrational expressions & inequalities, solving systems of equations, factoring expressions, etc.. There's nothing wordy in here.  I see a lot of letters, but not very many words. Again, if this is college mathematics you're talking about, than I can't say anything about that.

Oh, and banned for 

[CypherHoof 26,479]

3 minutes ago, Recherche said:

Okay... now, assuming I'm doing an exam on this, I have to remember all three of these things (and probably more). I have to consciously think about these definitions when I see these three+ terms, and how they interact with each other... and considering that I don't like science very much, tat's a tall order.

Banned because NONE of that was science - it is all mathematics.

 

3 minutes ago, Recherche said:

 

 In another contrast:

f(x) = 6x + 1

If I know the order of operations, and am able to deconstruct this problem, than this really isn't that hard, and doesn't require that I memorize a paragraph long explanation for a word.

I'm sorry if any of this comes across as insulting, I really am... but what exactly don't you understand about this?  Numbers don't have definitions, and symbols(+, -, xy, √)  give instructions. It's all about solving the problem, not knowing the answer to it. I understand why I got the math problem correct; in science, the answer is just what it is... just because.

One of the fundamentals of mathematics is that NOTHING just "is" - everything must have a definition and a proof. At school level they don't make a big deal about this (Terry Pratchett describes this as "lies to children" - telling a simplified, almost-accurate model to students, and just when they feel confident.. taking it away, and replacing it with a slightly more accurate, more complicated model that still isn't correct. This continues until you reach phd level, where they take away the model... and tell you to find a better one yourself )

So, essentially, the question "what is 1+1?" must ALWAYS be followed by "why?" and worse yet "what do we mean by '1' or by '+' ?"

Mathematics is the purest of the sciences, but is also, by a wide margin, the hardest.  It also describes how the world works, in minute detail; for example, when chaos theory was first studied, they found that certain edge cases had what they called "strange attractors" - situations where, while seemingly random, the results would always be found close to two or three fixed values - swapping back and forth rapidly and irregularly, but always around the same numbers. So they built a physical system (with some water and rotating cylinders) to see what it looked like in the real world... and it did it there too. Looked REALLY weird as well

 

3 minutes ago, Recherche said:

I'm looking through my Algebra book right now; I don't see any words in these problems. I'm seeing problems where you need to simplify irrational expressions & inequalities, solving systems of equations, factoring expressions, etc.. There's nothing wordy in here. 

The letters are variables, the operators symbols. In all sciences, the same principles apply - electronics and mechanical physics are literally interchangable, in that they can be represented entirely by equations and the same equations mapped out either to springs and pistons or to capacitors and coils. chemistry is literally just equations, where the symbols on each side of the equality must balance. biology is special though; biology goes beyond chemistry into emergent properties - which are pure (and highly advanced) mathematics in the field of chaos theory.  Truely understanding science comes from looking past the words and seeing the pure mathematics that is being described - and it IS all just mathematics.  It is sad that a lot of school-level science teaching hides that behind a fog of words.

 

 

[Concerned Bystander 2,901]

Banned for a post that long in this thread.

[CypherHoof 26,479]

1 minute ago, Concerned Bystander said:

Banned for a post that long in this thread.

Banned for incredibly short post in reply - given the massive missive I posted

[The Recherche 29,965]

3 hours ago, CoffeeHoof said:

Banned because NONE of that was science - it is all mathematics.

Alright, I decided to read this whole conversation, again... and you're right; that was math. I was just confusing definitions a bunch. I'm going to reillustrate the point I was making at the beginning, but hopefully better this time (I'm know for not explaining things very well... ) 

I like problems like this:

5(-3x - 2) - (x - 3) = -4(4x + 5) + 13

I like this problem because the answer is in the problem; you just have to decode it. As long as you understand the order of operations, addition, and subtraction (all of which are used constantly), you can figure this out.

I hate problems like this:

Suppose that a dominant allele (P) codes for a polka-dot tail and a recessive allele (p) codes for a solid colored tail. In addition, suppose that a dominant allele (L) codes for long eyelashes and a recessive allele (l) codes for short eyelashes. If two individuals heterozygous for both traits (tail color and eyelash length) mate, what's the probability of the phenotypic combinations of the offspring?

In this problem, I need to know: Not to mention, care...

• How genes are passed on
• What an allele is
• How dominant and recessive alleles interact
• What phenotypes are
• What heterozygous genes are

And remember; that's just one problem; there are dozens more that I'll need to do in this exam, which will come with another list of things that I need to know.

Alright... does that make sense?  Again, I'm sorry if any of this comes across as insulting, but I'm just doing everything I can to illustrate my point (something I'm not very good at, unfortunately).

This is what I was trying to say with my previous points (I just suck at explaining): The first problem has rules that are constant, and used in nearly every math problem. The second problem has its own independent rules. The subject constantly shifts, while the numerical math problems are consistent.

Oh, and banned for criticizing another users response! 

[CypherHoof 26,479]

6 minutes ago, Recherche said:

Alright, I decided to read this whole conversation, again... and you're right; that was math. I was just confusing definitions a bunch. I'm going to reillustrate the point I was making at the beginning, but hopefully better this time (I'm know for not explaining things very well... ) 

I like problems like this:

5(-3x - 2) - (x - 3) = -4(4x + 5) + 13

I like this problem because the answer is in the problem; you just have to decode it. As long as you understand the order of operations, addition, and subtraction (all of which are used constantly), you can figure this out.

Yup, good solid school-level mathematics

 

6 minutes ago, Recherche said:

I hate problems like this:

Suppose that a dominant allele (P) codes for a polka-dot tail and a recessive allele (p) codes for a solid colored tail. In addition, suppose that a dominant allele (L) codes for long eyelashes and a recessive allele (l) codes for short eyelashes. If two individuals heterozygous for both traits (tail color and eyelash length) mate, what's the probability of the phenotypic combinations of the offspring?

In this problem, I need to know: Not to mention, care...

• How genes are passed on
• What an allele is
• How dominant and recessive alleles interact
• What phenotypes are
• What heterozygous genes are

And remember; that's just one problem; there are dozens more that I'll need to do in this exam, which will come with another list of things that I need to know.

Yup. That's actually a massive oversimplification of how genetics works (Mendel faked his results :D) , but again typical of school level "lies to children"

Mathematically? You can assume to have two independent variables; lets call them {P,p} and {L,l}. So for the first variable, we have to calculate the cross product of (P,p) and (P,p) which will be ((P,P),(P,p),(p,P),(p,p))

(this is pure mathematics; either set theory or matrix algebra, take your pick; that there is an even distribution is also probability theory, but lets skip that for now)

Similarly, the cross product in {L,l} will be ((L,L),(L,l),(l,L),(l,l))

now we simplify - we know that any set with a capital letter can be simplified to that capital letter (dominant expression) so our expressed genomes are:

((P),(P),(P),(p)) and ((L),(L),(L),(l)) (or as probability, 0.75 P + 0.25p, 0.75L + 0.25l)

Now, we calculate the cross product of THAT and as a grid:

(P,L) (P,L) (P,L) (P,l)
(P,L) (P,L) (P,L) (P,l)
(P,L) (P,L) (P,L) (P,l)
(p,L) (p,L) (p,L) (p,l)

and either simply count -OR- can use the probabilities and calculate the combined probabilities as two independent variables.

0.75P * 0.75L=3/4 * 3/4 = 9/16 PL
0.25p * 0.75L=1/4 * 3/4 = 3/16 pL
0.75P * 0.25l=3/4 * 1/4 = 3/16 Pl
0.25p * 0.25l=1/4 * 1/4 = 1/16 pl

So yeah - fairly clearly just mathematics, with the words getting in the way

 

6 minutes ago, Recherche said:

Alright... does that make sense?  Again, I'm sorry if any of this comes across as insulting, but I'm just doing everything I can to illustrate my point (something I'm not very good at, unfortunately).

This is what I was trying to say with my previous points (I just suck at explaining): The first problem has rules that are constant, and used in nearly every math problem. The second problem has its own independent rules. The subject constantly shifts, while the numerical math problems are consistent.

 

6 minutes ago, Recherche said:

Oh, and banned for criticizing another users response! 

Banned for not accepting that is a perfectly acceptable reason here

[BlackPony 77]

Banned for talking about math.

[Matraxial Artemi 2,229]

Banned! for making this game complex!

[GiFTGewEhrSCHutzen-4 8,827]

Venomized for not buying me this. 

[Sovereign Leader Rarity 12,000]

Banned for being so needy.

[GiFTGewEhrSCHutzen-4 8,827]

Venomized for not making me a blanket with my face on it. :3

[Nightfall Gloam 18,236]

@Rarity the Supreme Banned for banning someone over a halo-halo. I'd love to try that some day, especially if I fly over to the Philippines.

@We_R_VeNoM Banned for ninjas.

Edited April 17, 2018 by Nightfall Gloam

[Venomous 18,813]

You're banned because my day isn't going well and I am taking it out on you.

[Sovereign Leader Rarity 12,000]

Banned for practising unfair policies.

[Hoppy 699]

banned for fair policies

 

[The Recherche 29,965]

Banned for INJUSTICE!!! 

[CypherHoof 26,479]

3 minutes ago, Hoppy said:

banned for fair policies

 

Banned because the mirror mirror on the wall

says @Rarity the Supreme's policies are fairest of all

[Hoppy 699]

banned for brown nose

(lol jk)

[CypherHoof 26,479]

Just now, Hoppy said:

banned for brown nose

(lol jk)

Banned because clearly it is grey with a darker muzzle

(besides, there would be no point brownnosing RtS - everypony knows she already picked a special somejelly

[The Recherche 29,965]

Banned for having a different colored nose at all!