The WPCC Lounge

[Ganaram Inukshuk 3,682]

I'm also having a hard time with Cinema4D; basically industry-level software for 3D modeling and 3D animation that costs thousands of dollars (the only other program I can think of is Maya) compared to Blender, a free 3D modeling program. Then there's Inkscape... And Windows Movie Maker and Paint.NET...

So instead of Photoshop, Illustrator, After Effects, and some sort of industry level 3D modeling program, it's Paint.NET, Inkscape, Windows Movie Maker, and Blender.

[Guest]

7 minutes ago, CypherHoof said:

I could never get into photoshop, although I know it is the "expected" tool in design agencies. Seriously, Adobe are the Apple of the design market.

Paint Shop Pro was always cheaper and easier to use (and could use photoshop plugins, although almost all of those cost more than PSP itself did)

The GIMP is very photoshop-like, but free (and massively cross platform). I have it on $LAPTOPS[$EMPLOYER] because they are too tight to buy either photoshop OR paint shop pro for me.

The laptop I am trying to learn how to draw on (which has my XPen on it) has FireAlpaca on it for that purpose; I have OpenToon on there too, but that's a bit much for me for now so sticking with FA.

The main reason that the professional world relies on Adobe is because of support. Adobe has a team that has almost 24 hour tech service and a huge reputation to protect. They will be on the job to help you faster than any other company that makes such software it seems. Not to mention, Adobe offers so much in the way of tutorials and training on how to use their stuff that others simply lack the resources to do. Sure there are tutorials online on how to use GIMP and PSP, but the issue with them is that companies would rather rely on a company that has people PAID to help rather than free online tools which aren't always reliable and since they are not being paid you can't count on them to help you out when you need it.

I have the Adobe Collection CS6 myself, and while I love it, I will say... It does not work so great these days. For starters... On Mac since most iMacs and even Macbooks now are 4K or even 5K (my model is 5K), the menus in CS6 look like trash because they were not designed for UHD. The fuzziness is unreal.

12 minutes ago, CypherHoof said:

Its not that surprising a combo; the japanese are big on mixing up sweet and savory, so I have tried some pretty odd combos (cheese and bacon on a sweet pastry, for example) and as mentioned, gammon with pinapple is on the menu at lots of restaurants.

 So its not like object to the theory - just I have tried it, and it isn't good.

Yeah, in theory something should work, but it doesn't always mean that it does, especially when we're talking something so subjective.

[Prometheus 3,038]

Morning, troops! How are we all doing today? 

I have just slept for nearly 15 hours, and Jesus Christ, did I need it. 

[Ganaram Inukshuk 3,682]

My first exposure to Photoshop was when Adobe Flash was still a thing, but that was during a time when my life was dominated with chronic depression and exhaustion. Oh, and hiding 99.99999% of my true self from anyone. (I'm at 95% maybe.)

I also have this "don't expect help from anyone" mentality, so even when I find a tutorial on Blender, I never ask for additional help; i instead see if anyone had the same problem I did and use that answer for myself.

The problem I might have with professional tutorials is there are too many ways to teach the same topics, but my biggest problem right now is that they go through everything with a fine-tooth comb; like, I watch everything at double speed and even that wasn't enough for the Cinema4D tutorial I'm following. It's taking me 20 videos to make something in C4D that conflicts with how I design things whereas it took ONE video on the art style I wanted to learn Blender.

Also, if there's nothing that caters to my art styles, then I don't wanna bother. I wanna ditch Phong shading as a stylistic choice (3D stuff) and I wanna make things overbearingly simplistic but still able to portray something (EG, how I never draw noses or mouths but only use white ellipses as eyes thereby making the eyes go on overdrive for portraying emotions) and I absolutely hate RYB (no respect towards cyan and magenta and I'll refuse to take said colour advice).

I also have this rule about being an artist: NEVER call yourself an artist.

[Guest]

11 minutes ago, SnekEater said:

Morning, troops! How are we all doing today? 

I have just slept for nearly 15 hours, and Jesus Christ, did I need it. 

Howdy, chief.

About to brew some coffee as I prepare for the last day of work this week. Wife said we are going on a date to the Chinese place if we can get out early. Still not counting on that happening, I'm sure someone for work won't show up and that means I'll have to be in charge again.

[CypherHoof 26,483]

31 minutes ago, Ganaram Inukshuk said:

I'm also having a hard time with Cinema4D; basically industry-level software for 3D modeling and 3D animation that costs thousands of dollars (the only other program I can think of is Maya) compared to Blender, a free 3D modeling program. Then there's Inkscape... And Windows Movie Maker and Paint.NET...

So instead of Photoshop, Illustrator, After Effects, and some sort of industry level 3D modeling program, it's Paint.NET, Inkscape, Windows Movie Maker, and Blender.

yup, I mostly have free stuff too - hence opentoon. I know toonboom CLAIM to be a cheaper alternative, but they are still outside of a hobbiest price range.

29 minutes ago, Key Sharkz said:

The main reason that the professional world relies on Adobe is because of support. Adobe has a team that has almost 24 hour tech service and a huge reputation to protect. They will be on the job to help you faster than any other company that makes such software it seems. Not to mention, Adobe offers so much in the way of tutorials and training on how to use their stuff that others simply lack the resources to do. Sure there are tutorials online on how to use GIMP and PSP, but the issue with them is that companies would rather rely on a company that has people PAID to help rather than free online tools which aren't always reliable and since they are not being paid you can't count on them to help you out when you need it.

I have the Adobe Collection CS6 myself, and while I love it, I will say... It does not work so great these days. For starters... On Mac since most iMacs and even Macbooks now are 4K or even 5K (my model is 5K), the menus in CS6 look like trash because they were not designed for UHD. The fuzziness is unreal.

Yup. hence the Apple comparison - its actually great, provided you are able and winning to throw money at every problem, every time. And a LOT of money.

 

29 minutes ago, Key Sharkz said:

Yeah, in theory something should work, but it doesn't always mean that it does, especially when we're talking something so subjective.

yup. hence it is one of those holy wars...

 

 

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, CypherHoof said:

Yup. hence the Apple comparison - its actually great, provided you are able and winning to throw money at every problem, every time. And a LOT of money.

 

Apple ironically only gets used in HIGH GRADE industry work because of its price. So like if you go to Pixar or South Park studios... All Macs because they have to complete things fast and every crash will set them back. They need stability, but you pay a high price for it. Like I've never had a slow down, freeze or crash on my iMac, but I also paid a pretty penny for it.

[CypherHoof 26,483]

16 minutes ago, SnekEater said:

Morning, troops! How are we all doing today? 

I have just slept for nearly 15 hours, and Jesus Christ, did I need it. 

Doing great, but then, I credit Coffee for that

3 minutes ago, Ganaram Inukshuk said:

My first exposure to Photoshop was when Adobe Flash was still a thing, but that was during a time when my life was dominated with chronic depression and exhaustion. Oh, and hiding 99.99999% of my true self from anyone. (I'm at 95% maybe.)

Yeah. I need to find a cheap copy of flash (assuming there is such a thing? second hand, maybe?) so I can try and model Ponies for my avatar given my lack of drawing skills. Currently using a pony creator, which isn't terrible, but isn't real great either.

 

3 minutes ago, Ganaram Inukshuk said:

I also have this "don't expect help from anyone" mentality, so even when I find a tutorial on Blender, I never ask for additional help; i instead see if anyone had the same problem I did and use that answer for myself.

Often worth joining such a community and then answering questions you know the answer to (even if it means you have to go try that on your copy, to see how you would solve it). After a while, you feel more comfortable asking your own questions, as you have contributed to the group so should at least get something out of it. And even if you don't - working though other people's problems can often improve your skills.

 

3 minutes ago, Ganaram Inukshuk said:

The problem I might have with professional tutorials is there are too many ways to teach the same topics, but my biggest problem right now is that they go through everything with a fine-tooth comb; like, I watch everything at double speed and even that wasn't enough for the Cinema4D tutorial I'm following. It's taking me 20 videos to make something in C4D that conflicts with how I design things whereas it took ONE video on the art style I wanted to learn Blender.

That's also a problem. If a workflow walkthough in your package doesn't feel right, it probably means the author doesn't think the same way you do - so either you need to change the way your brain is wired, or go find a better author

 

3 minutes ago, Ganaram Inukshuk said:

Also, if there's nothing that caters to my art styles, then I don't wanna bother. I wanna ditch Phong shading as a stylistic choice (3D stuff) and I wanna make things overbearingly simplistic but still able to portray something (EG, how I never draw noses or mouths but only use white ellipses as eyes thereby making the eyes go on overdrive for portraying emotions) and I absolutely hate RYB (no respect towards cyan and magenta and I'll refuse to take said colour advice).

I also have this rule about being an artist: NEVER call yourself an artist.

Its one of those things where the title is only worth having if it is given, rather than claimed.

Just now, Key Sharkz said:

Apple ironically only gets used in HIGH GRADE industry work because of its price. So like if you go to Pixar or South Park studios... All Macs because they have to complete things fast and every crash will set them back. They need stability, but you pay a high price for it. Like I've never had a slow down, freeze or crash on my iMac, but I also paid a pretty penny for it.

And yet they are underpowered compared to the market; Given pixar write their own software, I would expect them to be doing so for render farms on a massively fault-tolerant array of commodity hardware. Google and amazon are looking at undersea datacenters now because cosmic rays, and Microsoft already has them.

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, CypherHoof said:

And yet they are underpowered compared to the market; Given pixar write their own software, I would expect them to be doing so for render farms on a massively fault-tolerant array of commodity hardware. Google and amazon are looking at undersea datacenters now because cosmic rays, and Microsoft already has them.

Don't believe what you read.

Specs are often misleading. A computer will list its specs to have like a 4GHz Quad-core CPU, 16GB of RAM and whatnot, but it could perform worse in real-world use than a computer with significantly less specs.

In my experience... Macs generally for a lot of tasks perform pretty well in real-world use. Naturally, you get to stuff like games and the scores change. However, I have found that to match with Windows, you often need to do a lot of tinkering to make Windows as lightweight as you possibly can and be running software optimized for Windows, etc. All kinds of little things like that.

I've learned that spec bragging is basically how companies confuse consumers into thinking the end user experience will always be "better" but it does not always translate to such. Some configurations suck because the parts don't meld well together, etc.

Apple is far from perfect, but there is a reason they have kept a following. A lot of the time when the DO get it right, they get a very nice stable system. The times they get it wrong? They get faulty hardware that cooks itself. It's a delicate balance. I sort of wish Apple would stop choosing form over function for some things, because we've had too many faulty products in the last 3 years. Would love to see a return to form where Apple products become known once again for surviving atomic bombs.

[Ganaram Inukshuk 3,682]

Think about the Fight Club rule being applied anywhere else; I'm also a programmer but if someone has a problem that I figured out a solution for, I'll be reluctant to share it. I'll also never be able to remember a Unix terminal command for the life of me.

One of my biggest criticisms about my art style is that you can't express emotions using only eyes. Also, achieving colour coordination was a near-fruitless effort that only led to contradictory answers: the answers were "use RYB because that's the only way to be a true artist" (exaggerated), "use whatever you want", and "learn how HSV works (and maybe learn the difference between HSL and HSV)". Did I mention I hate RYB?

I also want to someday get a 16-core CPU but I refuse to explain what or why. I'm currently at an 8-core CPU and it only cost me 330 USD.

I'm also a gamer who's turned into a power user, so custom computer no matter what. I also draw and game at the same time, but problems happen when I also run a neural network at the same time.

[CypherHoof 26,483]

4 minutes ago, Key Sharkz said:

Don't believe what you read.

Specs are often misleading. A computer will list its specs to have like a 4GHz Quad-core CPU, 16GB of RAM and whatnot, but it could perform worse in real-world use than a computer with significantly less specs.

I don't have to - I work with this stuff all day.  Macs are great, especially given they are really a variant of BSD under the hood, not that microsoft knockoff. But when it comes to the devops workflow (recompile/unit-test/stage/stress-test/deploy) or data analysis, they simply don't have the same power as a "gamer" laptop 30% cheaper.

4 minutes ago, Key Sharkz said:

In my experience... Macs generally for a lot of tasks perform pretty well in real-world use. Naturally, you get to stuff like games and the scores change. However, I have found that to match with Windows, you often need to do a lot of tinkering to make Windows as lightweight as you possibly can and be running software optimized for Windows, etc. All kinds of little things like that.

Yeah, windows sucks even more. but in that case, its the software at fault, not the hardware.

 

4 minutes ago, Key Sharkz said:

I've learned that spec bragging is basically how companies confuse consumers into thinking the end user experience will always be "better" but it does not always translate to such. Some configurations suck because the parts don't meld well together, etc.

Apple is far from perfect, but there is a reason they have kept a following. A lot of the time when the DO get it right, they get a very nice stable system. The times they get it wrong? They get faulty hardware that cooks itself. It's a delicate balance. I sort of wish Apple would stop choosing form over function for some things, because we've had too many faulty products in the last 3 years. Would love to see a return to form where Apple products become known once again for surviving atomic bombs.

The creatives screamed when Apple dropped their rackmount range, rather than compete with the skyrocketing intel-based market.  They got a little better when they moved their own platform over to intel, but not much - they are still underpowered, if pretty. Which is why I am surprised that pixel etc are sticking with them for render, given I know how much heavy math is needed for that and the mac just doesn't have it. Amazon have some REALLY nice offerings in the cloud though - want an instance with eight GPU cores on-bus? sure, here's one...

Just now, Ganaram Inukshuk said:

Think about the Fight Club rule being applied anywhere else; I'm also a programmer but if someone has a problem that I figured out a solution for, I'll be reluctant to share it. I'll also never be able to remember a Unix terminal command for the life of me.

Ah well, I am from a different era I guess - we share heavily fixes for any problems we found, because we rely on others sharing THEIR fixes for the sort of crap vendors mark as "couldn't reproduce".

Just now, Ganaram Inukshuk said:

One of my biggest criticisms about my art style is that you can't express emotions using only eyes. Also, achieving colour coordination was a near-fruitless effort that only led to contradictory answers: the answers were "use RYB because that's the only way to be a true artist" (exaggerated), "use whatever you want", and "learn how HSV works (and maybe learn the difference between HSL and HSV)". Did I mention I hate RYB?

been plenty of cartoon characters that expressed emotion purely via eye shape - marvin the martian, for example.

Just now, Ganaram Inukshuk said:

I also want to someday get a 16-core CPU but I refuse to explain what or why. I'm currently at an 8-core CPU and it only cost me 330 USD.

I'm also a gamer who's turned into a power user, so custom computer no matter what. I also draw and game at the same time, but problems happen when I also run a neural network at the same time.

my beige case units are all custom of course, but I mostly use laptops these days, and customizing those things is near-impossible. All you can really do is stuff them with faster ram and backing store, and if you want anything else, buy a better one.

[Guest]

Just now, CypherHoof said:

I don't have to - I work with this stuff all day.  Macs are great, especially given they are really a variant of BSD under the hood, not that microsoft knockoff. But when it comes to the devops workflow (recompile/unit-test/stage/stress-test/deploy) or data analysis, they simply don't have the same power as a "gamer" laptop 30% cheaper.

2

Yeah, like one of my main issues is... Dual monitoring with Macs... Not so simple. I prefer my dual monitors to be about the same if not similar... Any secondary monitor I get... Will obviously be hard to find in 5K and on top of that... It'll look different than my iMac display, so that does put a dent on my workspace, since most of us computer people love dual monitoring.

Apple was better about this when they had the theater monitors, but they haven't had one in years now. Apple, please make a duplicate iMac display so we can get a proper dual monitor experience!

2 minutes ago, CypherHoof said:

Yeah, windows sucks even more. but in that case, its the software at fault, not the hardware.

 

A lot of the time designing stuff to work on Windows means sacrificing optimization since windows has so many configurations.

2 minutes ago, CypherHoof said:

The creatives screamed when Apple dropped their rackmount range, rather than compete with the skyrocketing intel-based market.  They got a little better when they moved their own platform over to intel, but not much - they are still underpowered, if pretty. Which is why I am surprised that pixel etc are sticking with them for render, given I know how much heavy math is needed for that and the mac just doesn't have it. Amazon have some REALLY nice offerings in the cloud though - want an instance with eight GPU cores on-bus? sure, here's one...

Yeah but I think companies like Pixar don't like the idea of having to let Amazon in on what they have. Remember, Disney is VERY VERY VERY secretive. The drawback to Amazon's solution is that they will gain access to Pixar's content, whereas doing stuff in house with Macs means they can keep things secret. That's really the drawback when it comes to cloud, you have to risk your security with another company and you're only as safe as they are. The only way to ensure your safety is to do it yourself, etc.

Disney I doubt will move to cloud unless it's a cloud they 100% own and even then they'd want that locked down.

[Ganaram Inukshuk 3,682]

Umm... quad monitor...

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, Ganaram Inukshuk said:

Umm... quad monitor...

I had gone to triple once, but never to Quad. I know Apple supports a few monitors, but I get really "eeeeeehhh" when all my monitors are not the same resolution and have the same color depth, etc. Usually, when I go multi-monitor I buy a ton of the same monitors.

[CypherHoof 26,483]

8 minutes ago, Key Sharkz said:

Yeah but I think companies like Pixar don't like the idea of having to let Amazon in on what they have. Remember, Disney is VERY VERY VERY secretive. The drawback to Amazon's solution is that they will gain access to Pixar's content, whereas doing stuff in house with Macs means they can keep things secret. That's really the drawback when it comes to cloud, you have to risk your security with another company and you're only as safe as they are. The only way to ensure your safety is to do it yourself, etc.

Disney I doubt will move to cloud unless it's a cloud they 100% own and even then they'd want that locked down.

Yup. we are a "cloud first" company now (which apparently means "we believe that azure is magically going to be cheaper than our own datacenter, because microsoft are going to keep selling at a loss forever")

From a security POV, if you go into someone else's datacenter, you are trusting every employee of that company, down to the cleaning staff, to not steal your data; with a physical datacenter, you can at least put decent locks on the cages, add a webcam to your hot and cold isles, and so forth. if you go Cloud, then you won't even know where the servers are physically located and want your actual hardware to be dedicated and not shared with your biggest competitor? that'll cost extra.

Cloud is Someone Else's Computer in Their Backyard.

[Guest]

1 minute ago, CypherHoof said:

Yup. we are a "cloud first" company now (which apparently means "we believe that azure is magically going to be cheaper than our own datacenter, because microsoft are going to keep selling at a loss forever")

From a security POV, if you go into someone else's datacenter, you are trusting every employee of that company, down to the cleaning staff, to not steal your data; with a physical datacenter, you can at least put decent locks on the cages, add a webcam to your hot and cold isles, and so forth. if you go Cloud, then you won't even know where the servers are physically located and want your actual hardware to be dedicated and not shared with your biggest competitor? that'll cost extra.

Cloud is Someone Else's Computer in Their Backyard.

Reminds me of this "all digital" future we keep hearing about with gaming and such and how "convenient" it is. Yeah, so convenient that when the company decides to take the storefront down you now need to rely on piracy to keep the content you paid for or buy it again if they re-release it. Really convenient that I can't loan a game to a friend too. Insanely convenient that digital storefronts seldom lower the price because they know they don't have to because it's not like used copies are floating around to reduce the value.

[CypherHoof 26,483]

15 minutes ago, Key Sharkz said:

Reminds me of this "all digital" future we keep hearing about with gaming and such and how "convenient" it is. Yeah, so convenient that when the company decides to take the storefront down you now need to rely on piracy to keep the content you paid for or buy it again if they re-release it. Really convenient that I can't loan a game to a friend too. Insanely convenient that digital storefronts seldom lower the price because they know they don't have to because it's not like used copies are floating around to reduce the value.

Yup. why I have physical media for all my switch games (and while I do have some steam games, only if there isn't a physical media option)

[Guest]

2 hours ago, CypherHoof said:

Yup. why I have physical media for all my switch games (and while I do have some steam games, only if there isn't a physical media option)

I try and go physical whenever I can.

[CypherHoof 26,483]

1 hour ago, Key Sharkz said:

I try and go physical whenever I can.

Physical for Starlink is a weird gimmick though

[Guest]

42 minutes ago, CypherHoof said:

Physical for Starlink is a weird gimmick though

Yeeeeeeeah...

[CypherHoof 26,483]

7 minutes ago, Key Sharkz said:

Yeeeeeeeah...

But fun. And expensive. I now have 10 pilots, six ships, a bucketload of weapons, and no money for the forseeable future

[Ganaram Inukshuk 3,682]

2 hours ago, CypherHoof said:

But fun. And expensive. I now have 10 pilots, six ships, a bucketload of weapons, and no money for the forseeable future

What...?

[Guest]

2 hours ago, CypherHoof said:

But fun. And expensive. I now have 10 pilots, six ships, a bucketload of weapons, and no money for the forseeable future

Personally I passed on Starlink.

[Olly 1,011]

12 hours ago, CypherHoof said:

Pinapple is one of those holy war things really - some people point out that pinapple and gammon is a classic pairing for meals, so ham and pinapple should work on a pizza. The problem there is that normally you have a small amount of pinapple to a large amount of gammon, and the almost equal balance on a pizza means it is far, far too sweet - its like putting a sugar cube on there. Things like cherry tomatoes (which are still sweet, but not AS sweet) work better, and then there is the effect pinapple juice has on things like cheese and other common toppings.

I guess if I didn't eat it I can see how imagining it would make a person think of it as being "too sweet" but when I do have it it's a different story. It just adds something extra that I like. Sure there are things people like that I don't personally like but it doesn't really matter to me unless they're making me eat it 

 

9 hours ago, Key Sharkz said:

I think because they don't "look" like they should go together, you know?

I mean, you could say that about any topping depending on what you think "looks" good on/with what. I freak out when people soak their pizza in BBQ sauce 

[Ganaram Inukshuk 3,682]

4 minutes ago, Olly said:

I guess if I didn't eat it I can see how imagining it would make a person think of it as being "too sweet" but when I do have it it's a different story. It just adds something extra that I like. Sure there are things people like that I don't personally like but it doesn't really matter to me unless they're making me eat it 

 

I mean, you could say that about any topping depending on what you think "looks" good on/with what. I freak out when people soak their pizza in BBQ sauce 

This is why boringness is a virtue to me; you can't start a war when there's nothing to fight over.