Why do people like Luna?

[Goat-kun 2,527]

6 hours ago, BornAgainBrony said:

We never saw them? Are you kidding me? Luna going into dreams was introduced pretty early on. The potential repercussions of those dreams going unchecked didn't get explored until later. Celestia's little self-motivating speech before venturing into the dream world for the first time is pretty telling. "Now to save someone from their nightmares, which shouldn't be a problem because they're not real. Right? RIGHT?!" Luna's work at least puts her on the level of some kind of mystical psychiatrist, preventing patients from losing their minds, in the most dramatic ways imaginable. In our world, Starlight would have simply woken up from the dream, and been over it within a couple hours at the most, as all nightmares (with the exception of terrors, which is a very different thing) tend to be. Starlight was going to have been permanently scarred by it and that is NOT normal for Nightmares.

So she's a glorified dreamtime caretaker. I can get behind this definition. Still don't see any real monsters. Are Mane 6 mentally scarred? Is Granny Smith? She's old as heck. Has anypony been suffering from Luna's absence? We're talking about ordinary bad dreams here not Silent Hill.

6 hours ago, BornAgainBrony said:

She was already off the deep end when she transformed, that was pretty obvious. And what, you can base the entire pre-NMM backstory of Luna on the whole 30 seconds of it that Twilight witnessed? That's like cellphone videos in restaurants that only ever start AFTER the altercation is in full-swing, denying us always of the big question, "How did all of this start?" And we're talking about creatures that live FAR longer than we do. You think this all of that rage built up over the course of a day or a week? Sounds like maybe you just don't care about things like that. Do you care at all about what people go through, or only what you can see with your eyes? Sentient life forms don't fit into neat little categories like "rich bitch." People just all too often want them to, so they pick the few aspects that fit the stereotype, and discard everything that doesn't match up.

She went off the deep end alright, shouting at her sister like a disgruntled cheerleader who didn't get the first place. Where was all that sorrow I'm hearing so much about? We've seen how Luna behaves when she is down, and we've seen how she behaves when she is pissed. The Luna in the flashback was not feeling the sads. Is there another side to Luna besides Rich Bitch Luna, Dream Babysitter Luna, and Guilty Conscience Luna? There are characters who go off the deep end due to things like jealousy, so it's not like Luna being such a character would be something particularly surprising. And again, it's not just what the characters go trough but also how. How is very important.

 

Now let me be clear: I do not dislike rich bitches like Pacifica Northwest and Kaguya Shinomiya. I don't even hate Luna. I just think she's overrated. But between you and me, I would have appreciated it if some actual antihero had given her and them powerful unicorns a good spanking. Antiheroes are generally the best choice for setting angsty gals straight, even some of the worst cases. Just ask Farnese de Vandimion

[Metemponychosis 1,261]

On 3/28/2019 at 2:27 AM, BornAgainBrony said:

I think it's more complicated than that. Celestia had a bad rep right from the first two episodes. I'm sure enough people were at least miffed that Celestia couldn't see the pain that her sister was going through before it reached the breaking point. Maybe Luna was just too good at internalizing it until she snapped? But even upon her return, it's Luna who is still suffering. She's been forgiven but she still can't forgive herself, and is torturing herself with the Tantabus. Celestia on the other hand, never shows any real regrets. Luna has always been doing the apologizing. Granted, everyone is responsible for their own actions, but that we're never shown any hint of remorse from Celestia suggests she's either apathetic, or just plain oblivious. I don't think that's true, but we're never shown it. The best we have is fanworks about the subject. Even with being reunited, after a thousand years, Celestia's words to Luna are mostly professional, not personal, as if she was reciting a pre-written speech. And kKnowing what set Luna off, at the very least the first thing I would have done after that is to set up a Lunar Festival of some kind, focusing on the beauty of the night, an event when everypony stays up. We don't see any of this, and combined with some of the questionable ways she deals with Twilight (which we wouldn't fully understand until seasons later), what we were given was a seemingly very shallow character; a rather stereotypical unsympathetic ruler.

Celestia simply wasn't presented well, which created a lot of dissenters *coughLunarRepubliccough.* The 'Trollestia' meme became a thing for a reason.

Odd. I hadn't received a notification for this message, which is bad because I like what you said. So, forgive me for being too late.

Well, for starters, of course it's more complicated. Most things are, particularly when there are several angles from which to look at it. When I'm talking about Luna, I usually leave Celestia out of it, because that is what the cartoon usually does. There is a void where Celestia should be in Luna's 'suffering', which was mostly fandom until that episode with the long name and Tantabus. You cannot tell me that Luna's development as a character wasn't influenced by the fandom's perception of her. And that is important because she obviously changed along the way: from her heartwarming reunion with Celestia to her presence in the Nightmare Night festivities in Ponyville, Luna changed from a misunderstood castaway trying to settle in to an egotistical jerk that has wondrous powers and still manages to seem as though she's the underdog (and the cartoon constantly treats as such). Add to that that moronic two-minute flashback of Celestia using the Elements on Nightmare Moon and you'll understand my meaning.

So, you are 100% correct when you mention that Celestia wasn't presented well. In fact, I think that is putting it lightly. Just look at most of my posts and you'll see, I'm just not gonna expand on that here. But that doesn't change anything about the reasons Luna is a giant conflation of a sympathy sink and a power fantasy. Specially because this suffering people saw in Luna is purely fabricated by the fandom. The actual intro to the cartoon makes it seem like Luna was acting like one of those snowflake artists that couldn't take the fact that people had more important things to do, like sleeping, instead of staring at her night.

And you're wrong. Celestia did show regrets.

Quote

Princess Celestia: It has been a thousand years since I have seen you like this. Time to put our differences behind us. We were meant to rule together, little sister.

Twilight Sparkle and Rainbow Dash: Sister?

Princess Celestia: Will you accept my friendship?

Pinkie Pie: Whoa!

Princess Luna: I'm so sorry! I missed you so much, big sister!

Princess Celestia: I've missed you, too.

The second part of the first episode of the cartoon. You can't be serious when you say that sounds professional. Look at the episode again.

It's easy talking about Celestia being a poor sister, because of that too. It's also easy to forget that Luna/Nightmare Moon didn't even have time to do anything Luna could regret because McCarthy solved Nightmare Moon in two minutes with that flashback. Nothing about Luna makes any sense and from my perspective, it could very well be that Luna is an insufferable cunt that Celestia constantly has to deal with and might be regretting having her back. Makes about as much sense.

Yeah... There is a reason Trollestia was a thing. It is that the fandom is full of Lunas and the people that make the cartoon caught on to that. So we went from the two lovingly hugging and shedding tears of joy at being reunited to two jerks that can't stand each other.

[BornAgainBrony 2,397]

21 hours ago, Goat-kun said:

So she's a glorified dreamtime caretaker. I can get behind this definition. Still don't see any real monsters. Are Mane 6 mentally scarred? Is Granny Smith? She's old as heck. Has anypony been suffering from Luna's absence? We're talking about ordinary bad dreams here not Silent Hill.

She went off the deep end alright, shouting at her sister like a disgruntled cheerleader who didn't get the first place. Where was all that sorrow I'm hearing so much about? We've seen how Luna behaves when she is down, and we've seen how she behaves when she is pissed. The Luna in the flashback was not feeling the sads. Is there another side to Luna besides Rich Bitch Luna, Dream Babysitter Luna, and Guilty Conscience Luna? There are characters who go off the deep end due to things like jealousy, so it's not like Luna being such a character would be something particularly surprising. And again, it's not just what the characters go trough but also how. How is very important.

Now let me be clear: I do not dislike rich bitches like Pacifica Northwest and Kaguya Shinomiya. I don't even hate Luna. I just think she's overrated. But between you and me, I would have appreciated it if some actual antihero had given her and them powerful unicorns a good spanking. Antiheroes are generally the best choice for setting angsty gals straight, even some of the worst cases. Just ask Farnese de Vandimion

I mentioned that briefly in one of my previous posts, and I'm aware that it presents a problem. It's nothing that can be addressed without going into speculation though. Either Equestria's insane asylum was filled to the max until Luna came back, some shred of the old Luna was still reaching out from the Moon to do the thing, or something similar to the sun-raising Unicorn squads was brought into play again. We have little to go on as far as dreamwalking is concerned. We've never even seen Starswirl do it, that we know of, but it's official CANON he taught the Sisters how to move the Heavens, so it stands to reason he also taught Dreamwalking to Luna. I have to wonder if the Dreamwalker aspect was in Faust's original notes or if it was added later. Celestia obviously took on the task of controlling the moon, but "Royal Problem" showed she had no knowledge of the "Nightmare war."

She was past that point. Depression can quickly turn into anger. When an individual has been depressed for long enough, has done a lot of analyzing and can find no way out, it can quickly turn into very irrational anger. It's when someone is sick of being sad, and decides to actually do something about it. Whether that something is even remotely practical, or would have any chance of actually working if successful, is often irrelevant. Being trapped in depression long enough leads to desperation. One will try to tunnel their way out of that prison with a spoon if they have to. Or alternatively, they'll just try to kill who they perceive as the warden who is keeping them there. (also, did you really expect to see a demonspawn like Nightmare Moon weeping over the podium?)

I'm one who would like to see more serious effort put into conflicts. We got it with Tirek, and now once more in S9 which was pretty cool. But there's only so much they can do staying in their current rating. This kind of thing is also something I felt Starlight would have been very well suited for. She wouldn't have had to become a perfect student of Harmony to still have an important role. She practically has done that on more than one occasion, using magic for very unusual purposes, but the only time she ever got into a serious fight was with Twilight.

15 hours ago, Metemponychosis said:

Well, for starters, of course it's more complicated. Most things are, particularly when there are several angles from which to look at it. When I'm talking about Luna, I usually leave Celestia out of it, because that is what the cartoon usually does. There is a void where Celestia should be in Luna's 'suffering', which was mostly fandom until that episode with the long name and Tantabus. You cannot tell me that Luna's development as a character wasn't influenced by the fandom's perception of her. And that is important because she obviously changed along the way: from her heartwarming reunion with Celestia to her presence in the Nightmare Night festivities in Ponyville, Luna changed from a misunderstood castaway trying to settle in to an egotistical jerk that has wondrous powers and still manages to seem as though she's the underdog (and the cartoon constantly treats as such). Add to that that moronic two-minute flashback of Celestia using the Elements on Nightmare Moon and you'll understand my meaning.

So, you are 100% correct when you mention that Celestia wasn't presented well. In fact, I think that is putting it lightly. Just look at most of my posts and you'll see, I'm just not gonna expand on that here. But that doesn't change anything about the reasons Luna is a giant conflation of a sympathy sink and a power fantasy. Specially because this suffering people saw in Luna is purely fabricated by the fandom. The actual intro to the cartoon makes it seem like Luna was acting like one of those snowflake artists that couldn't take the fact that people had more important things to do, like sleeping, instead of staring at her night.

And you're wrong. Celestia did show regrets.

The second part of the first episode of the cartoon. You can't be serious when you say that sounds professional. Look at the episode again.

It's easy talking about Celestia being a poor sister, because of that too. It's also easy to forget that Luna/Nightmare Moon didn't even have time to do anything Luna could regret because McCarthy solved Nightmare Moon in two minutes with that flashback. Nothing about Luna makes any sense and from my perspective, it could very well be that Luna is an insufferable cunt that Celestia constantly has to deal with and might be regretting having her back. Makes about as much sense.

Yeah... There is a reason Trollestia was a thing. It is that the fandom is full of Lunas and the people that make the cartoon caught on to that. So we went from the two lovingly hugging and shedding tears of joy at being reunited to two jerks that can't stand each other.

Yeah, see that's why it really irks me and I see "Y U no leik my nite?" as being far too simple. Unless things were radically different, it seems apparent that Luna's life has always been one of isolation. Leaving out maybe having a friend or two that she regularly chats with in dreams (Snowdrop, maybe, but there's no evidence she normally has time for this), a Royal Problem gives us a pretty solid picture of the stark contrast between the two Sisters. While it's not great, Celestia at least got to have a lot interaction. As many will admit to, working a customer desk faced with cranky customers is still "better" than being isolated (with the exception of the introverts who thrive in that environment, and Luna is clearly not an introvert). Since everyone else is asleep while she's up, Luna logically had no other to talk to besides Celestia for a very brief time. At this point, getting disgruntled over everyone sleeping, has a much deeper significance than simple whining about a piece of art that nobody appreciates.

Given more thought though, taking into account the nature of talents in MLP, maybe the jealousy angle isn't so weird after all. Control of the night is literally her cutie mark, which means no love for the night is no love for Luna via proxy; it's literally who and what she is. How much self-hatred could that create? Or anger towards fate, or the Tree, or whatever controls that system?

About fans influencing official development, bickering CANON is definitely more complex in this fandom as a result. There's a degree of circlejerk between fans and DHX, and as a whole we might as well be the midgard serpent munching on its own tail. The relationship between the fans and the studio, and metaphorically, between us and Equestria, is almost symbiotic. This has interesting implications because the studio is actually responding to us the way that legends of old do, as stories get passed down from generation to generation, certain details become less important and others become more prominent.

It's not just the wording but the way it's delivered. Yeah, she was teary-eyed too when Luna accepted her. It just seemed the wrong moment to remain so regal, even if that might have been a bit awkward in front of subjects. Also the wrong time to even mention the throne. It's been a thousand years. I would have expected far more emotion, especially when it was obvious Luna was terrified that she was about to get smote.

The bickering of "Royal Problem" isn't really that unrealistic. For example, how often do epic fights happen between married couples that end in a lot of crying and apologies, worth of the climax of a romance film? Now, how often is that actually the last fight? The cynical side of me always had similar thoughts about the "happily ever after" end of Peter Pan, the parents overjoyed that the kids have finally come home and all I could think was, "Right, within a month they'll be acting like tyrants again."

Also keep in mind, Trollestia isn't just about Luna, but Twilight as well. We still see it happening in the S9 premiere. 

[Goat-kun 2,527]

7 hours ago, BornAgainBrony said:

I mentioned that briefly in one of my previous posts, and I'm aware that it presents a problem. It's nothing that can be addressed without going into speculation though. Either Equestria's insane asylum was filled to the max until Luna came back, some shred of the old Luna was still reaching out from the Moon to do the thing, or something similar to the sun-raising Unicorn squads was brought into play again. We have little to go on as far as dreamwalking is concerned. We've never even seen Starswirl do it, that we know of, but it's official CANON he taught the Sisters how to move the Heavens, so it stands to reason he also taught Dreamwalking to Luna. I have to wonder if the Dreamwalker aspect was in Faust's original notes or if it was added later. Celestia obviously took on the task of controlling the moon, but "Royal Problem" showed she had no knowledge of the "Nightmare war."

She was past that point. Depression can quickly turn into anger. When an individual has been depressed for long enough, has done a lot of analyzing and can find no way out, it can quickly turn into very irrational anger. It's when someone is sick of being sad, and decides to actually do something about it. Whether that something is even remotely practical, or would have any chance of actually working if successful, is often irrelevant. Being trapped in depression long enough leads to desperation. One will try to tunnel their way out of that prison with a spoon if they have to. Or alternatively, they'll just try to kill who they perceive as the warden who is keeping them there. (also, did you really expect to see a demonspawn like Nightmare Moon weeping over the podium?)

I'm one who would like to see more serious effort put into conflicts. We got it with Tirek, and now once more in S9 which was pretty cool. But there's only so much they can do staying in their current rating. This kind of thing is also something I felt Starlight would have been very well suited for. She wouldn't have had to become a perfect student of Harmony to still have an important role. She practically has done that on more than one occasion, using magic for very unusual purposes, but the only time she ever got into a serious fight was with Twilight.

There was a time when such lack of information would have bothered me. Now I just pick up my squirming dreamscape horrors and laugh all the way to the underworld.

 

She was laughing and making speeches. She never mentioned anything about taking vengeance for all the wrongs in any of her forms. All she wanted was to one-up Celestia. You can copy paste a whole UpToDate article on depression. It won't bring depressed and lonely Luna into canon. Only our glorious writers can do it. It's a little late for that though. Maybe in G5. Who knows.

 

Pony fights are meaningless jumbles of colorful explosions that serve as optic stimulation before the inevitable conclusion in the form of a friendship lesson. Animation-wise they feel like watching a turn-based strategy game. If you can't do fights in a satisfying manner, then don't do them at all. This tactic of half-arsing something to attract non-traditional audience doesn't work when that audience has access to shows that do it way better.

[BornAgainBrony 2,397]

12 minutes ago, Goat-kun said:

There was a time when such lack of information would have bothered me. Now I just pick up my squirming dreamscape horrors and laugh all the way to the underworld.

She was laughing and making speeches. She never mentioned anything about taking vengeance for all the wrongs in any of her forms. All she wanted was to one-up Celestia. You can copy paste a whole UpToDate article on depression. It won't bring depressed and lonely Luna into canon. Only our glorious writers can do it. It's a little late for that though. Maybe in G5. Who knows.

Pony fights are meaningless jumbles of colorful explosions that serve as optic stimulation before the inevitable conclusion in the form of a friendship lesson. Animation-wise they feel like watching a turn-based strategy game. If you can't do fights in a satisfying manner, then don't do them at all. This tactic of half-arsing something to attract non-traditional audience doesn't work when that audience has access to shows that do it way better.

"She was already like that" doesn't hold any water either, unless Celestia is WAAAAY more passive than even some realize (even in the face of "they never do anything anyway.") If that kind of rage was already showing, Celestia should have known about it.

You couldn't even see it in Nightmare Night? That's a pretty good approximation to how someone can jump back and forth between depression and anger. It's really not too different from the behavior of an abused dog.

Ehh, you know, that's how most Anime handles fights too right? Though it certainly doesn't help that the studio needs to not go too far into fisticuffs, or anything involving weapons for that matter. Note how the one time we actually got to see soldiers in an actual battle, suddenly their spears were conveniently missing.

[Goat-kun 2,527]

2 hours ago, BornAgainBrony said:

"She was already like that" doesn't hold any water either, unless Celestia is WAAAAY more passive than even some realize (even in the face of "they never do anything anyway.") If that kind of rage was already showing, Celestia should have known about it.

You couldn't even see it in Nightmare Night? That's a pretty good approximation to how someone can jump back and forth between depression and anger. It's really not too different from the behavior of an abused dog.

Ehh, you know, that's how most Anime handles fights too right? Though it certainly doesn't help that the studio needs to not go too far into fisticuffs, or anything involving weapons for that matter. Note how the one time we actually got to see soldiers in an actual battle, suddenly their spears were conveniently missing.

Well, she does behave like that now that she is not emotionally compromised, doesn't she.

 

Being depressed is not depression as defined by medicine. Being depressed can be completely natural when dealing with something you don't like.

 

You want to make the movement of those fighting more dynamic. How hard is to make ponies wink-dodge spells in close combat? Teleport/high speed moves are a shounen staple. Wink dodge and counter that charged magic beam with a crowd control spell and then finish them off with your own charged beam. That's the basic logic and it requires no punches or explicit violence.

 

Weapons on ponies look weird anyway. And their armor looks shit too. There are ways to make weapons that a pony could wield more naturally, but that's beyond something your average writer or animator would be able to design. It is a cruel irony that worldbuilding demands knowledge that is far removed from subjects of writing and animation.

[MangoFoalix 24,961]

Why do people like anything? I guess because her character is interesting or something.

[Metemponychosis 1,261]

13 hours ago, BornAgainBrony said:

Yeah, see that's why it really irks me and I see "Y U no leik my nite?" as being far too simple. Unless things were radically different, it seems apparent that Luna's life has always been one of isolation. Leaving out maybe having a friend or two that she regularly chats with in dreams (Snowdrop, maybe, but there's no evidence she normally has time for this), a Royal Problem gives us a pretty solid picture of the stark contrast between the two Sisters. While it's not great, Celestia at least got to have a lot interaction. As many will admit to, working a customer desk faced with cranky customers is still "better" than being isolated (with the exception of the introverts who thrive in that environment, and Luna is clearly not an introvert). Since everyone else is asleep while she's up, Luna logically had no other to talk to besides Celestia for a very brief time. At this point, getting disgruntled over everyone sleeping, has a much deeper significance than simple whining about a piece of art that nobody appreciates.

That is, literally, what the cartoon said. That she resented ponies not appreciating her night. You won't get to spin the poor Luna sob story with me because not only it conflicts with canon, but I also think it lessens anything she might have done and the value of her redemption. Anything else is another discussion, and there is nothing that alleviates those factors. Luna was literally, one of the two at the top of the hill. The literal definition of 'privileged'.

And, honestly, I can't get into a discussion of any specifics from episodes such as A Royal Problem, without first talking about the technical aspects of the storytelling in these episodes. About things such as who is more loved, or is she awake when watching over the dreams, or even who has the more important job, and what are those jobs.

14 hours ago, BornAgainBrony said:

Given more thought though, taking into account the nature of talents in MLP, maybe the jealousy angle isn't so weird after all. Control of the night is literally her cutie mark, which means no love for the night is no love for Luna via proxy; it's literally who and what she is. How much self-hatred could that create? Or anger towards fate, or the Tree, or whatever controls that system?

This is going into headcanon territory. Not that it bothers me, but needs to be made clear.

The nature of talents in MLP... What exactly do you mean? Because the cartoon has made a mess of this. To me, it would be a problem if, for some reason, she couldn't keep control of the night. Because as far as I can see, she should be happy with simply watching over the it. On the other hand, the cartoon has made a point about how cutie marks aren't that important and ponies can use their cutie marks and do different things with no problems. I don't think that this analogy of 'no love for the night = no love for Luna' follows. Though I could like it if it was canon.

14 hours ago, BornAgainBrony said:

About fans influencing official development, bickering CANON is definitely more complex in this fandom as a result. There's a degree of circlejerk between fans and DHX, and as a whole we might as well be the midgard serpent munching on its own tail. The relationship between the fans and the studio, and metaphorically, between us and Equestria, is almost symbiotic. This has interesting implications because the studio is actually responding to us the way that legends of old do, as stories get passed down from generation to generation, certain details become less important and others become more prominent.

It's not this fandom. It's the Internet that does this. For example, in Rick and Morty, the final episode of season 3 the writers took special care to leave clues about certain details because they were monitoring Reddit. I thought that I might be giving the fandom too much credit in it's influence when I mentioned this in my comment, but you gave it a lot more. In our case, it's more along the lines of 'They like this! They like that character! Do those more!' Much more vague, and honestly, much less focused.

I would call it symbiotic in the case of R&M, because then it made more information that was important to get across a already established point. In my example with Luna, they changed the character around, instead of reinforcing the original intended ideas.

Not that it's bad, but it's something that I personally dislike because it messes with narrative coherence and makes me wonder if there actually was a plan to be followed.

14 hours ago, BornAgainBrony said:

It's not just the wording but the way it's delivered. Yeah, she was teary-eyed too when Luna accepted her. It just seemed the wrong moment to remain so regal, even if that might have been a bit awkward in front of subjects. Also the wrong time to even mention the throne. It's been a thousand years. I would have expected far more emotion, especially when it was obvious Luna was terrified that she was about to get smote.

Completely disagree, on every single account. We're watching different cartoons.

14 hours ago, BornAgainBrony said:

The bickering of "Royal Problem" isn't really that unrealistic. For example, how often do epic fights happen between married couples that end in a lot of crying and apologies, worth of the climax of a romance film? Now, how often is that actually the last fight? The cynical side of me always had similar thoughts about the "happily ever after" end of Peter Pan, the parents overjoyed that the kids have finally come home and all I could think was, "Right, within a month they'll be acting like tyrants again."

Now is the time to talk about nuance. Compare them to Twilight and Shining Armor. Twilight and her friends. The CMC.

This has nothing to do with happily ever after because we can't see what is in the future. We can only see how characters interact when then are well-written. If Twilight stabbed Spike with a cutting pen next time he dropped something on the floor, after all we've seen, we'd call it 'out of character', not 'what happens after happily ever after'.

So, either the cartoon is trying to tell me that Celestia and Luna can't stand each other and a civil war in Equestria is way past overdue, or it just sucked when it tried to portray them as sisters next to the other example.

Now, I get what you're trying to say... After all, that is how sequels are made... But then the same could be said the other way around. "Oh... Chrysalis repented on her own and is going to apologize in the future" is the exact opposite level of optimism. Both mean nothing until they do, in the context of storytelling.

14 hours ago, BornAgainBrony said:

Also keep in mind, Trollestia isn't just about Luna, but Twilight as well. We still see it happening in the S9 premiere. 

There were several variations of the meme and serious people explained it away saying that Celestia was training and testing Twilight.

Me? I say that Celestia is the best, goddamn cutest, most efficient, bad ass, benign tyrant, complete with character flaws, capable of wiping the floor with anyone that messes with her ponies awesome ruler there ever was, and certainly knows what she's doing, goddess of the sun. Except that the cartoon's 'difficulties' have turned her into an idiotic goofball that can't do anything right by herself, that acts benign but is so incompetent that she can't help screwing up everyone's existence, and is barely relevant and in constant need of help (comedic exaggeration(TM)). Somewhere in the middle ground of what I think the cartoon was trying to do with her and what it ended up producing, I find the canon Celestia, and that depends on the context of the conversation.

The curious thing is that I think the same about Luna, but she had a poor idea of herself and her place as co-ruler, made some bad choices, and through the magic of the Elements (or friendship, to put it more bluntly) was expunged of her evil, learned from it and is doing great now. And I even think that the cartoon has done a passable job with her.

7 hours ago, Goat-kun said:

Pony fights are meaningless jumbles of colorful explosions that serve as optic stimulation before the inevitable conclusion in the form of a friendship lesson. Animation-wise they feel like watching a turn-based strategy game. If you can't do fights in a satisfying manner, then don't do them at all. This tactic of half-arsing something to attract non-traditional audience doesn't work when that audience has access to shows that do it way better.

This guy knows what he's talking about.

[Metemponychosis 1,261]

4 hours ago, Goat-kun said:

You want to make the movement of those fighting more dynamic. How hard is to make ponies wink-dodge spells in close combat? Teleport/high speed moves are a shounen staple. Wink dodge and counter that charged magic beam with a crowd control spell and then finish them off with your own charged beam. That's the basic logic and it requires no punches or explicit violence.

Weapons on ponies look weird anyway. And their armor looks shit too. There are ways to make weapons that a pony could wield more naturally, but that's beyond something your average writer or animator would be able to design. It is a cruel irony that worldbuilding demands knowledge that is far removed from subjects of writing and animation.

You get brohooves for these.

Edited April 24, 2019 by Metemponychosis

[RDDash 19,186]

Because she is not Celestia? One of the major reasons she is likable is that we never seen her in the ruling position (Nightmare Moon doesn't count). And even if she did fandom presented her to be strict but competent ruler. Who makes all of the decisions? Celestia. Who gets her butt kicked on the weekly basis? Celestia. Who uses child soldiers as her primary response to everything in the times of crisis? Celestia. No wonder that Luna feels like an angel by comparison.

[Metemponychosis 1,261]

1 hour ago, R.D.Dash said:

Who uses child soldiers as her primary response to everything in the times of crisis?

????

[RDDash 19,186]

8 minutes ago, Metemponychosis said:

????

Mane 6, are practically teenagers in pony years and none of them has the training of a soldier, and they are the ones who is doing all the hard work mind you.

[Metemponychosis 1,261]

32 minutes ago, R.D.Dash said:

Mane 6, are practically teenagers in pony years and none of them has the training of a soldier, and they are the ones who is doing all the hard work mind you.

Yeah. I kind of agree, even if I think of them more as young adults, it doesn't really make much of a difference.

Pony years, though? What do you mean?

[RDDash 19,186]

15 minutes ago, Metemponychosis said:

Pony years, though? What do you mean?

I don't really know how long do Equestrian ponies live based on our planet's standard year.

Edited April 25, 2019 by R.D.Dash

[Metemponychosis 1,261]

1 hour ago, R.D.Dash said:

I don't really know how long do Equestrian ponies live based on our planet's standard year.

So, you think that one shouldn't assume the age of the Mane Six, based on that you don't know how long ponies live, relative to the duration of one of our years. Meaning you can't estimate their maturity. Is that right?

Then, why do you assume that they are practically teenagers? Their behavior?

[Will Guide 21,360]

3 hours ago, R.D.Dash said:

Mane 6, are practically teenagers in pony years and none of them has the training of a soldier, and they are the ones who is doing all the hard work mind you.

 

11 minutes ago, Metemponychosis said:

So, you think that one shouldn't assume the age of the Mane Six, based on that you don't know how long ponies live, relative to the duration of one of our years. Meaning you can't estimate their maturity. Is that right?

Then, why do you assume that they are practically teenagers? Their behavior?

I thought this was about Luna, not the Mane 6 and Celestia. 

Let's not overcomplicate things.

On 4/23/2019 at 7:16 PM, TheTaZe said:

Why do people like anything? I guess because her character is interesting or something.

This guy has the simplest answer.

[RDDash 19,186]

1 hour ago, Metemponychosis said:

So, you think that one shouldn't assume the age of the Mane Six, based on that you don't know how long ponies live, relative to the duration of one of our years. Meaning you can't estimate their maturity. Is that right?

Then, why do you assume that they are practically teenagers? Their behavior?

 How is it relevant? EQG chosed to portray them as teenagers In a high school because that's what they are.

Edited April 26, 2019 by R.D.Dash
Streamlining

[Metemponychosis 1,261]

50 minutes ago, R.D.Dash said:

 How is it relevant? EQG chosed to portray them as teenagers In a high school because that's what they are.

 

It's relevant because you're spewing bullshit. You're making mental gymnastics nonsense and cherry-picking to say that Celestia used child soldiers, and comparing her to Luna.

[BornAgainBrony 2,397]

1 hour ago, R.D.Dash said:

 How is it relevant? EQG chosed to portray them as teenagers In a high school because that's what they are.

The Pony versions are all situated in their careers already, the only exception being Twilight, who was near the end of college when the show begins.

[Mirage 24,770]

I think Princess Luna is likable because:

a) Her colors and style are mysterious and dreamy

b) her long flowing mane and tail are instantly attractive

c) her mannerisms are old fashioned and adorable

d) she expresses a duality we all have - the persona and the shadow (our mask and darkside)

e) she conveys strength and solidarity

f) she was redeemed after falling and living a 'second chance'

[RDDash 19,186]

@Metemponychosis

I am not here to argue with you. Please for your own sake try to have a nice day, goodbye.

[Will Guide 21,360]

13 minutes ago, Mirage said:

I think Princess Luna is likable because:

a) Her colors and style are mysterious and dreamy

b) her long flowing mane and tail are instantly attractive

c) her mannerisms are old fashioned and adorable

d) she expresses a duality we all have - the persona and the shadow (our mask and darkside)

e) she conveys strength and solidarity

f) she was redeemed after falling and living a 'second chance'

Hmm... interesting viewpoints. Especially letter d.

[MangoFoalix 24,961]

2 hours ago, Will Guide said:

This guy has the simplest answer.

Better to be straight to the point then just having a long drawn out answer a paragraph long.

[Goat-kun 2,527]

6 hours ago, R.D.Dash said:

Because she is not Celestia? One of the major reasons she is likable is that we never seen her in the ruling position (Nightmare Moon doesn't count). And even if she did fandom presented her to be strict but competent ruler. Who makes all of the decisions? Celestia. Who gets her butt kicked on the weekly basis? Celestia. Who uses child soldiers as her primary response to everything in the times of crisis? Celestia. No wonder that Luna feels like an angel by comparison.

Luna goes off the rails, wants to hurt her own sister, shroud everything into eternal night, and rule over ponies like a cruel despot.

Luna fans: There's clearly more to this than you can see in the show!

Celestia mentors Twilight, does a few practical jokes, and gets captured here and there.

Luna fans: Omg she's an evil mastermind! And she's also incompetent at the same time!

Celestia fans: You're clearly biased for some reason. Wanna tell why?

Luna fans: Well ... Luna was so interesting back when she had no character development.

Celestia fans:

 

#NotAllLunaFans

 

6 hours ago, R.D.Dash said:

Who uses child soldiers as her primary response to everything in the times of crisis? Celestia. No wonder that Luna feels like an angel by comparison.

H-Bro is promoting violence against children. Go on. Jump into the rabbit hole.

[Mirage 24,770]

14 minutes ago, Goat-kun said:

Luna goes off the rails, wants to hurt her own sister, shroud everything into eternal night, and rule over ponies like a cruel despot.

 

Luna fans: There's clearly more to this than you can see in the show!

 

Celestia mentors Twilight, does a few practical jokes, and gets captured here and there.

 

Luna fans: Omg she's an evil mastermind! And she's also incompetent at the same time!

 

Celestia fans: You're clearly biased for some reason. Wanna tell why?

 

Luna fans: Well ... Luna was so interesting back when she had no character development.

 

Celestia fans:

 

Such hyperbole is best served in a more serious debate.

Edited April 26, 2019 by Mirage