Debate Pit: Closed for Renovation

[Ice Princess Silky <3 13,606]

Glitches and magic and red buttons -- oh my!








Presently, the site is undergoing some updates, changes and remodeling. You've probably noticed the glitches! But sit tight! The Forums shall be expanding into some newer content! The Debate Pit of Tartarus shall be closed for renovation, we may be moving it to another department. Please be patient as staff works restlessly to make some lovely changes! Thank you!

[DubWolf 17,254]

Silky ! Didn't you..... uhh... you know .

[Sir Hugsalot 9,307]

Dangit, why did I install that button?! 

Hey, I have a suggestion regarding about where the Debate Pit should be moved!

Spoiler

On a serious note, however, the drama leaking from there was becoming a problem. Can't say I'm going to miss it. 

[GeneralDirection 1,047]

You're doing an amazing job, bestie! Keep up the good work! Can't wait to see what you have planned for the forums. Personally, I'm happy to see the debate pit gone. All it was doing was causing pain and creating dissension, things nobody wants here.

[Evil Pink One 13,506]

Muhahahaha...HAHAHAHAH KHEK EHKK! AHUKK COUGH!... excuse me...

[Astralshy 26,453]

I won't miss it. In my opinion that had no place here anyway and caused problems instead of building or strengthen this community.

So goid thing you did there. Orb approves

[Misty Shadow 7,848]

I intend no disrespect whatsoever, but how many times are we going to have to get rid of Debate Pit and bring it back? I was actually somewhat fond of DP in its newly improved state, not taking it and comments in there I disagreed with too seriously. 

[Evil Pink One 13,506]

Maybe we should have a debate pit that only involves pony related content? Right? I mean.... This IS the mlp forums... So the only thing i see the debate pit actually works here is when it involves ponehs....and not things from our world... I mean this IS the reason why we go to this forums. To get away from the stress and hassle of the world... Right?

I came here for the ponehs

[Cash In 22,232]

 

Anyways, closing the pit for a bit is probably for the best IMO.

Edited April 23, 2023 by Cash In

[Evil Pink One 13,506]

....so wait a minute.... Even though alot of peeps were removed from the pit it was still chaotic?.... Maybe we should change that place to chaos pit instead XD

[Misty Shadow 7,848]

52 minutes ago, Kujamih said:

Maybe we should have a debate pit that only involves pony related content? Right? I mean.... This IS the mlp forums... So the only thing i see the debate pit actually works here is when it involves ponehs....and not things from our world... I mean this IS the reason why we go to this forums. To get away from the stress and hassle of the world... Right?

I came here for the ponehs

I come here for ponies too. However, while I am, again, not trying to be disrespectful, I don't understand why some people on this site think that there is something inherently wrong with us having a place on this site dedicated to discussing serious issues. Participating in Debate Pit is entirely optional. When I don't feel like reading or writing political discourse in DP, I don't do it. Simple as that. 

[Evil Pink One 13,506]

Discussing serious issues here?.... I mean sure?.... But why though is what the vibe i get from others and me....although making it private might help? Or something. 

Plus discussing serious issues should have like a proper referee and judges or something or else it's just gonna get messy.i mean look at people at a proper debate? Even though they have a platform a judge etc. It's still messy. I don't think mlpforums staff are trained for this...

So maybe sticking to pony stuff and not the serious stuff... Cuz serious stuff needs to taken seriously and not done half heartedly etc.

[Evil Pink One 13,506]

1 minute ago, Kujamih said:

Discussing serious issues here?.... I mean sure?.... But why though is what the vibe i get from others and me....although making it private might help? Or something. 

Plus discussing serious issues should have like a proper referee and judges or something or else it's just gonna get messy.i mean look at people at a proper debate? Even though they have a platform a judge etc. It's still messy. I don't think mlpforums staff are trained for this...

So maybe sticking to pony stuff and not the serious stuff... Cuz serious stuff needs to taken seriously and not done half heartedly etc.

Also just putting things out there and no dissin on anyone

[Mirage 24,747]

This is a controversy on all forums.

People have natural reactions/questions about the natural world and because it's off topic, these comments get their own 'place' which somehow always becomes a derogatory theme - 'debate pit' or 'thunderdome' or 'fight club', etc

It is a risk to the community either way. Without a place to debate, people will create topics, status updates or hijack other topics to express themselves. With a place to debate, people will bring up these frustrations, fears, or questions which are inherently challenging/controversial and go all out.

As an admin for a different forum, I have experimented with different strategies to handle this. None of them were perfect, but I think I found a good balance.

The problem can be broke down like this:

a) allow off-topic debates in General Discussion - pro: people can vent freely - con: the psychopaths take over and destroy the forum

b) do not allow any off-topic debating - pro: 'our town' control of information - con: people bring up issues in inappropriate places and more reprimanding takes place which causes resentment/alienation/loss of control

c) create a Debate Forum that show up in the feed - pro: people have a place to discuss off topic and if moderated correctly, works out okay - con: people can still see the topics and get upset indirectly

d) create a Debate Forum/Club that doesn't show up in any feeds and is unmoderated (truly a 'pit') - topics are invisible to all sans those who visit it directly - pro: people have a place to discuss off topic and because it is unmoderated, they have no shield to hide behind - con: it's inactive and slow, but can still cause resentment

 

Every community is different. But in my experience, having at least a 'basement' where people can 'smoke and drink' turns out to be the best (option d).

 

Option B is more challenging than people think, but it's also a good way to go. Leadership is vital in order to maintain the peace and harmony in any case, but especially this one.

 

 

Personally, it think debate is healthy. But it's not for everyone. Tolerating others, exposing yourself to diverse ideas, and learning to express yourself in a mature manner is vital to growth as a person.

Edited April 23, 2023 by Crystal Mirage

[Evil Pink One 13,506]

 

Option D i approve!  Plus i can troll in there because it ain't moderated0 muhahahaha1l

[Mirage 24,747]

9 minutes ago, Kujamih said:

 

Option D i approve!  Plus i can troll in there because it ain't moderated0 muhahahaha1l

 

Riiiight. It ends up balancing out rather quickly as certain types of people find out their shenanigans are met directly, their vitriol returned right back, and aren't able to cause the drama they intend. 

[Evil Pink One 13,506]

3 minutes ago, Crystal Mirage said:

 

Riiiight. It ends up balancing out rather quickly as certain types of people find out their shenanigans are met directly, their vitriol returned right back, and aren't able to cause the drama they intend. 

[SharpWit 2,618]

Forgive me for living under a rock and not exploring the site so much and seeing issues overflow from one section to another.

I haven't participated in as many debates as I used to since they can be quite time consuming and tiresome after a full day's work, but all of my experiences in the latest version of the pit have been extremely civil. Perceptions have been less than positive for those under certain labels, but these always seem to get called out without the vicious back and forth we used to have.

The only issue I've personally witnessed is newcomers who haven't met the criteria to participate in the debate pit yet, and choose to start discussing debate topics in other sections. It's not good when this happens obviously, but the reason we make rules is to help resolve issues and to better handle those that are doing a NoNo.

I remember this being much more prevalent when there was no debate pit at all.

I love moss covered rocks. They're a beautiful part of the garden scape. On the outside all is tranquil, but the closer we look the more we find that can be explored. If we lift the rock, we may find some critters crawling underneath that we're not the most fond of. If we leave the rock be, they'll continue to crawl about, while everyone continues to enjoy the garden. If we remove the rock, those critters will venture out, and they'll pop up in all kinds of unwanted spaces. The debate pit is just such a rock.

Spoiler

Edit: I did not open with that figure of speech with the intention of writing about rocks and stuff further on. Please don't percieve me as an undesirable critter! 

 

Edited April 23, 2023 by SharpWit

[Luna the Great of all the Russias 2,983]

Personally, to the extent that the Debate Section involved genuine attempts at argumentation rather than an exchange of insults, I find that it had very interesting discussions. And I would say that there is much potential for interesting discussions to be had for those primarily interested in ideas rather than those who pursue lesser ends. Regardless of whether I agree with a particular user's worldview, I appreciate those who have put effort into more strictly adhering to discussion and argumentation.

Edited April 23, 2023 by Luna the Great of all the Russias

[Mirage 24,747]

8 minutes ago, Props Valroa said:

@Crystal Mirage

I don't see why the staff should have to spend the extra effort doing something that isn't the focus of the MLP forum. If you want politics or edgier stuff - you can easily go to other forums. This forum was perfectly fine without it for years.

It's their job to handle content that doesn't focus on the context of the forum or topic, or that violates the rules. And it's not an easy job - ever.

Believe me - I understand where you are coming from. Two camps usually arise when this is brought up - one group doesn't want anything to do with off topic discussion/debate, the other prefers to have it so that that content doesn't spill into inappropriate areas. Like I pointed out, either approach has its risks, and the staff members that have been around know exactly what I'm talking about.

You cannot predict what people will get offended about.

Without a place for off-topic discussion, moderators will be forced to remove content that may otherwise be completely innocent, and this will frustrate/alienate members.

I'm not trying to persuade any particular approach. I want people to think about it. I'm perfectly fine with the 'our town' control if that's what the staff wants.

It might get weird though...just saying.

[Mirage 24,747]

@Props Valroa Point taken. I'll shut up then.

[Ice Princess Silky <3 13,606]

8 hours ago, CloudMistDragon said:

I intend no disrespect whatsoever, but how many times are we going to have to get rid of Debate Pit and bring it back? I was actually somewhat fond of DP in its newly improved state, not taking it and comments in there I disagreed with too seriously. 

The first time, it was deleted. At present, it is merely closed. Staff right now has to focus most of their energies on site improvement rather than senseless bickering. I ask that you please be patient. 

The newly improved state of the DP also took ceaseless time and efforts from the staff. And now we're investing that energy on expanding on some stuff that shall require our time and effort. Thanks for your patience and understanding. 

[Jeric 46,851]

As someone who spent three full months from April of June of last year doing a systemic Six Sigma DMAIC analysis on how to restore it, it seems a shame.

It might be worth mentioning that each visit to that section to moderate it would take me all of five minutes, and it really wasn’t much of a headache. That’s coming from a left leaning trans woman in a sea of comments that are rather more conservative. People like @Props Valroa and @Luna the Great of all the Russias actually brought a lot of well thought out comments to the forefront that I personally loved reading. I’ll be honest, I felt if I didn’t jump in then shit would just eventually tank, since it would run very well if there was active staff engagement so I guess I’ll take DP closing a final compliment. FWIW, the current debate pit was super tame compared to the heyday of this forum. 
 

Since I’m a major fan of transparency, I want to point out, and as I told @Props Valroa previously in one of the public topics, the old DP topics are not deleted. They are archived and hidden and my plan was to make them visible like we did with the Twilacorn Archive. If it remains closed here it may be a good idea to initiate the process of moving them all together. 
 

Another free solution, if present staff are too busy to manage moderating it, then finding a new staffer willing to take on the challenge should be trivial. That may solve the whole thing and present a win / win to everyone. For some Debate Pit was a primary purpose of visiting. While other homes in other departments could be a better fit, what makes a sub community so unique is not the content but the interactions than can only be replicated if everyone is to move. Otherwise it will always leave a sour taste for some pining for the “good old days”. 
 

TL;DR Closing it or moving it may have some unfortunate implications. I just listed some. I’d stay and discuss further, but I have travel arrangements to make and architecture certification to study for. 
 

Pony On Forum. 

[Yoshi89 5,293]

Honestly, I’m not going to look either way as to what happens to the Debate Pit. I’ll just take a que sera sera approach for the time being. I’m not going to be majorly affected by what happens.

On the whole, I found the second attempt to be a lot smoother than the first. Maybe we all just needed a break, especially with everything going on in this world. There’s enough problems already, so I appreciate it being a whole lot more civil than the first one.

[Sir Hugsalot 9,307]

1 hour ago, Jeric said:

As someone who spent three full months from April of June of last year doing a systemic Six Sigma DMAIC analysis on how to restore it, it seems a shame.

It might be worth mentioning that each visit to that section to moderate it would take me all of five minutes, and it really wasn’t much of a headache. That’s coming from a left leaning trans woman in a sea of comments that are rather more conservative. People like @Props Valroa and @Luna the Great of all the Russias actually brought a lot of well thought out comments to the forefront that I personally loved reading. I’ll be honest, I felt if I didn’t jump in then shit would just eventually tank, since it would run very well if there was active staff engagement so I guess I’ll take DP closing a final compliment. FWIW, the current debate pit was super tame compared to the heyday of this forum. 
 

Since I’m a major fan of transparency, I want to point out, and as I told @Props Valroa previously in one of the public topics, the old DP topics are not deleted. They are archived and hidden and my plan was to make them visible like we did with the Twilacorn Archive. If it remains closed here it may be a good idea to initiate the process of moving them all together. 
 

Another free solution, if present staff are too busy to manage moderating it, then finding a new staffer willing to take on the challenge should be trivial. That may solve the whole thing and present a win / win to everyone. For some Debate Pit was a primary purpose of visiting. While other homes in other departments could be a better fit, what makes a sub community so unique is not the content but the interactions than can only be replicated if everyone is to move. Otherwise it will always leave a sour taste for some pining for the “good old days”. 
 

TL;DR Closing it or moving it may have some unfortunate implications. I just listed some. I’d stay and discuss further, but I have travel arrangements to make and architecture certification to study for. 
 

Pony On Forum. 

The debate pit isn't gone. The site is just going through some upgrades and internal changes that will have moderation focus on other matters. Lots of credit to the devs hard at work in the background for the platform to stay in tact and even expand.