Treatise to Eliminate 'Love and Tolerate'

[AppleJackle 37]

So.

 

As we are all aware, ‘Love and Tolerate’ seems to have become the catchphrase of the brony community.

 

I think this needs to change, for it is a poor ethic to espouse, or at least an incomplete one.

First of all, we ought to think about what kind of society in the real world would form from those who are only capable of ‘love and toleration’. They would be peaceful, sure, but also weak and insignificant on a grander scale. What does someone who is only capable of L&T do when there is a sword at their throat, demanding their goods or labor?

 

So it seems to me that, alone, L&T is inane, foolish, empty. It calls for us to sheath our weapons when coerced, to resist oppression not at all.

 

It is the ethic of a slave, and I shall not embrace it.

 

When Discord was unleashing chaos over all of Equestria, did the ponies that we all share a joy in simply love and tolerate him?

 

NO THEY DID NOT.

 

They fought with all of their will, struggled in self-defense to protect those that they care for, so that they could survive another day. When the Buffalo and Appleoosans had a conflict, did either side simply love and tolerate?

 

No. They both fought.

 

When peoples were being massacred in Darfur, did L&T do anything to protect them? NO.

So I say to those who wish to claim L&T as the brony ethic: stand aside or take another look!

Even our fair ponies do not believe in such things. Why should we?

 

I ask that we find a new motto to live by- one that includes sensible self-defense within it. Else we are fools, clowns, jokers, and nothing else.

Edited December 11, 2012 by AppleJackle

[Skullbuster 1,906]

love and tolerance (or at least the way i follow it) means that i dont judge others, it dosnt apply to haters, i just simply ignore them, becasue there is literally nothing they can say to me that will make me care about their opinion, love and tolerance is where i accept people for who they are and i dont judge, i use it as a philosophy to be a very tolerant person, as long as your not breaking the law or harming your self and/or others then do what ever you want

 

thats how i love and tolerate

 

now look at this, the best thing you can do to a hater is completely ignore them, because arguing with them is pointless,not only dose it start a fight, but its an unwinable arguement, both parties involved cant win because both are stuck firmly in their ideals, a lot of people are just so hard headed that no matter how good your argument is, they wont listen and in the end its just a waste of time

[AppleJackle 37]

love and tolerance (or at least the way i follow it) means that i dont judge others, it dosnt apply to haters, i just simply ignore them, becasue there is literally nothing they can say to me that will make me care about their opinion, love and tolerance is where i accept people for who they are and i dont judge, i use it as a philosophy to be a very tolerant person, as long as your not breaking the law or harming your self and/or others then do what ever you want

 

thats how i love and tolerate

 

now look at this, the best thing you can do to a hater is completely ignore them, because arguing with them is pointless,not only dose it start a fight, but its an unwinable arguement, both parties involved cant win because both are stuck firmly in their ideals, a lot of people are just so hard headed that no matter how good your argument is, they wont listen and in the end its just a waste of time

This has nothing to do with what I am talking about.

 

Of course, judging others for superficial reasons is ridiculous, and ignoring haters and bullies is the best way to get rid of them. I was never questioning this.

 

Also, I believe that there is no such thing as an 'unwinnable argument'.

 

There is either objective truth to a situation, or such a thing as 'truth' does not exist.

 

'Breaking the law' is not necessarily harming anyone- as laws do not always reflect morality.

Edited December 11, 2012 by AppleJackle

[Pan the Fabulous Ferret 2,642]

Love and tolerate is simply a saying, it was designated to be the brony way against haters during some of the flame wars on 4chan.

 

Love and Tolerate does NOT mean that you ar a pacifist, nor does it mean you cant be violent.

Obviously some can say thta is what they believe in, but the vast majority of bronies don't believe in pacifism, so I have seen.

 

You are basicly assuming thi all.

[PonyEcho 1,610]

to me L&T is a shield, that is only used as a defense against haters, its never rely applied either it just used as a "screw you you're beneath me" card to play.

 

honestly i find it better to speak on equal terms with hater and learn to accept and understand there opinion, if you can find a level ground you'll find out that yourself and the hater have a lot in common. 

 

actually i find it funny how i can have more decent conversations with haters rather then bronies, but then again i never got a death threat from a hater  

[AppleJackle 37]

Love and tolerate is simply a saying, it was designated to be the brony way against haters during some of the flame wars on 4chan.

 

Love and Tolerate does NOT mean that you ar a pacifist, nor does it mean you cant be violent.

Obviously some can say thta is what they believe in, but the vast majority of bronies don't believe in pacifism, so I have seen.

 

You are basicly assuming thi all.

My point is that it seems like a terrible saying to use- I see it in nearly every thread and it makes me very irate.

 

It sounds naive and childish- naturally causing  the assumption of pacifism.

 

This is why I wish for it to go away, or to be modified to something that is not so obviously flawed.

[TailsIsNotAlone 3,695]

The thing is, Applejackle, this isn't really the catchphrase of the community at all. It was a sardonic meme during the 4chan days and it hasn't been relevant since. It's not something that needs to be embraced or eliminated.

 

I'd say our real catchphrase should be "20% cooler than the average fandom," but that's the Dash fan talking.

[AppleJackle 37]

The thing is, Applejackle, this isn't really the catchphrase of the community at all. It was a sardonic meme during the 4chan days and it hasn't been relevant since. It's not something that needs to be embraced or eliminated.

 

I'd say our real catchphrase should be "20% cooler than the average fandom," but that's the Dash fan talking.

I suppose I thought of this thread because of the post by well-respected member, Red- here: http://mlpforums.com/topic/41734-treatment-of-haters-the-elimination-of-love-and-tolerate/

 

Also, 'L&T' is everywhere- from threads here, to comments on fan websites, to comics, to Youtube comments. So I think it is kind of known as the catchphrase or motto :/

 

I am a very large fan of your suggestion though ^^"

Edited December 11, 2012 by AppleJackle

[Flicker Sweet 3,391]

that's a great point you make.  But we aren't being oppressed in any way.  Love andTolerate should stay because it actually is what keeps people from hating on us even more.  It's how we keep the general message of the show in our fandom.  If we get rid of our initial principle, what do we have left?

[Crispy 5,563]

A an unofficial "Treatise" to eliminate a catchphrase that is in itself unofficial strikes me as somewhat of a waste of time, but eh.

 

Just do what you want.  Some will try to live to that standard, some won't.  I'll just continue to be a colorful horse enthusiast.

[TailsIsNotAlone 3,695]

I'm with Crispy. The fandom can do what it wants whether I agree with it or not; I try to like or at least respect everyone in it. But enjoying ponies is the top priority.

 

I think Red is somewhat unique in his belief that other people even care what we say about ourselves. I believe we do not need any slogan or message for the outside world. The show speaks for itself to those who discover it. As far as we're concerned, our actions--such as the hospital fundraiser--can also speak for themselves.

Edited December 11, 2012 by TailsAlone

[rolle 320]

So.

 

As we are all aware, ‘Love and Tolerate’ seems to have become the catchphrase of the brony community.

 

I think this needs to change, for it is a poor ethic to espouse, or at least an incomplete one.

First of all, we ought to think about what kind of society in the real world would form from those who are only capable of ‘love and toleration’. They would be peaceful, sure, but also weak and insignificant on a grander scale. What does someone who is only capable of L&T do when there is a sword at their throat, demanding their goods or labor?

 

So it seems to me that, alone, L&T is inane, foolish, empty. It calls for us to sheath our weapons when coerced, to resist oppression not at all.

 

It is the ethic of a slave, and I shall not embrace it.

 

When Discord was unleashing chaos over all of Equestria, did the ponies that we all share a joy in simply love and tolerate him?

 

NO THEY DID NOT.

 

They fought with all of their will, struggled in self-defense to protect those that they care for, so that they could survive another day. When the Buffalo and Appleoosans had a conflict, did either side simply love and tolerate?

 

No. They both fought.

 

When peoples were being massacred in Darfur, did L&T do anything to protect them? NO.

So I say to those who wish to claim L&T as the brony ethic: stand aside or take another look!

Even our fair ponies do not believe in such things. Why should we?

 

I ask that we find a new motto to live by- one that includes sensible self-defense within it. Else we are fools, clowns, jokers, and nothing else.

hey hey i think the thing is from one of the generations so chill off i remember one generation where they said alot of love and tolerate so your argument is invalid also love and tolerate is a simple thing to say 'we dont hate we tolerate others instead' (in my way)

[AppleJackle 37]

A an unofficial "Treatise" to eliminate a catchphrase that is in itself unofficial strikes me as somewhat of a waste of time, but eh.

 

Just do what you want.  Some will try to live to that standard, some won't.  I'll just continue to be a colorful horse enthusiast.

 

I'm with Crispy. The fandom can do what it wants whether I agree with it or not; I try to like or at least respect everyone in it. But enjoying ponies is the top priority.

 

I think Red is somewhat unique in his belief that other people even care what we say about ourselves. I believe we do not need any slogan or message for the outside world. The show speaks for itself to those who discover it. As far as we're concerned, our actions--such as the hospital fundraiser--can also speak for themselves.

 

It is a treatsie to get people to stop saying something that I view as empty and foolish. I am not forcing my opinion on anyone, simply putting it out there, in the hopes that some will see my point.

 

I am certainly glad that we all share a love of colorful horses, it truly is a wonderful thing.

 

 

hey hey i think the thing is from one of the generations so chill off i remember one generation where they said alot of love and tolerate so your argument is invalid also love and tolerate is a simple thing to say 'we dont hate we tolerate others instead' (in my way)

I honestly have no idea what you are trying to say.

[Flicker Sweet 3,391]

I think Red is somewhat unique in his belief that other people even care what we say about ourselves.

 That's not what I've been saying, I've been saying we need to show Love&Tolerate in our actions.  Such things like the major fundraiser going on are exactly the kind of thing I'm talking about us doing. Edited December 11, 2012 by Red

[Creamy Arty 6,252]

"Love and tolerance" is an admirable standard (though an unnecessary "catchphrase") we should strive for in our daily lives, both online and off, but it doesn't preclude defending oneself against those who intend harm.

 

What you're talking about is a kind of situational ethics. Killing a man to protect oneself from an immediate threat is quite different from hunting him down for causing one harm in the past. The act isn't one of anger or retribution, it's one of necessity. Likewise a verbal engagement with prejudiced people may be necessary but there is still room for tact - defending your own position while allowing the other man to discredit himself. You also have to learn to pick your battles. If I get hassled by one guy on the internet for being a brony, I probably won't retaliate. Not because I'm afraid to or because I'm trying to adhere strictly to a slogan, but because most guys like that make their decisions arbitrarily and debating it with him would be a waste of time and effort. Not only that, but his accusations are inconsequential. If it was even possible to influence his way of thinking then my actions would be enough for him; no words will help me. Only if there was an audience of neutral onlookers would I care because I might have a chance of influencing them in a positive way. Arguments are never won or lost, people are; don't make the point of a confrontation your own vanity.

 

Now if somebody wants to bring it to blows, I'll certainly do whatever is necessary to defend myself. The fault for any harm that comes to him is entirely on his shoulders.

 

And there's this:

 

The thing is, Applejackle, this isn't really the catchphrase of the community at all. It was a sardonic meme during the 4chan days and it hasn't been relevant since. It's not something that needs to be embraced or eliminated.

 

 

I'm surprised more people aren't aware of this, given how knowledgeable most seem to be regarding our memes.

[Firelord Derpy 310]

As long as you are not hurting me I will love and tolerate you. The moment you draw your arm back to hit or draw a gun I will respond with just as much force. 

Self defense is different then loving and tolerating people who aren't encroaching on you. 

[Shanks 10,816]

I don't think the people who came up with the phrase "love and tolerant" intended for it to mean that you have to be a doormat and let people walk all over you. I think it is alot like the lesson in the episode Putting Your Hoof Down where Fluttershy at first went way too far with the whole assertiveness stuff by becoming a bully yet realized at the end of the episode that she dosen't have to stoop to a bullies level but can still stand up for herself by refusing to pay Ironwill because she wasn't satisfied with his lessons.

[AppleJackle 37]

"Love and tolerance" is an admirable standard (though an unnecessary "catchphrase") we should strive for in our daily lives, both online and off, but it doesn't preclude defending oneself against those who intend harm.

 

What you're talking about is a kind of situational ethics. Killing a man to protect oneself from an immediate threat is quite different from hunting him down for causing one harm in the past. The act isn't one of anger or retribution, it's one of necessity. Likewise a verbal engagement with prejudiced people may be necessary but there is still room for tact - defending your own position while allowing the other man to discredit himself. You also have to learn to pick your battles. If I get hassled by one guy on the internet for being a brony, I probably won't retaliate. Not because I'm afraid to or because I'm trying to adhere strictly to a slogan, but because most guys like that make their decisions arbitrarily and debating it with him would be a waste of time and effort. Not only that, but his accusations are inconsequential. If it was even possible to influence his way of thinking then my actions would be enough for him; no words will help me. Only if there was an audience of neutral onlookers would I care because I might have a chance of influencing them in a positive way. Arguments are never won or lost, people are; don't make the point of a confrontation your own vanity.

 

Now if somebody wants to bring it to blows, I'll certainly do whatever is necessary to defend myself. The fault for any harm that comes to him is entirely on his shoulders.

I completely agree with this, and it's very much the point I am trying to make.

 

Constantly, incessantly, on any pony-related thing around, I see this catchphrase of 'Love and Tolerate' which has nothing to do with reality whatsoever.

 

Just 100 years ago, a man who adored the thought of pastel-colored ponies WOULD have had to fight tooth and nail for his right to be different.

 

In some parts of the world this is still the case.

 

My point is that bigotry is not solved by love and tolerance, and seeing this slogan pasted everywhere makes me feel revulsion.

 

We aren't so far away from days of hatred and violence that we should be proclaiming a pacifistic slogan. I guess I can't think of anything quite as catchy and simple, but I feel that it is insufficient and degrading to shout "Love and tolerate" at the top of our lungs.

Edited December 11, 2012 by AppleJackle

[Obsidian_Winter 1,159]

Also, I believe that there is no such thing as an 'unwinnable argument'. There is either objective truth to a situation, or such a thing as 'truth' does not exist.

 

Not everyone sees it that way. One mans truth is another mans lie. If both people believe what they are saying is the truth, who wins? In court cases people go free who are guilty and people who are innocent go to prison. Even in a court system based on facts alone, sometimes those 'facts' lie or can be skewed to be seen another way. People aren't machines who calculate fact alone.

 

My few words on 'Love and Tolerance'. I actually fought about this not long ago. To me, 'Love and Tolerance' do not mean 'Passive and disinterested'. It means I will make every attempt to love everyone or at least tolerate them. Tolerance only can go so far. I think it more reflects our natural state of mind as oppose to the end all be all path we will always walk. Its our first course of action, what we prefer. Love also means defending those we love. Protecting what we love. I think our general way of going about things is Loving and Tolerating. Sometimes though you are going to run into stupid people who just won't let you be that way and you have to fight.

Just 100 years ago, a man who adored the thought of pastel-colored ponies WOULD have had to fight tooth and nail for his right to be different. In some parts of the world this is still the case.

 

But we can't beat them into accepting something either. All this sounds more like war mongering then anything. I get what your saying about defending ourselves but what would you rather our catch phrase be? "Tolerant, but Firm?", "Love, unless you cross us", "Strength throught Unity, Unity through Faith?".

 

I'm not really seeing your point here.

[Starswirl the Trixie 975]

People embraced love and tolerance because it sounded cute. Now people learn that it's actually hard, are shocked, and say that there is no meaning in those words.

 

Yeah, guys, tolerating your enemies is HARD. Why did any self-righteous Brony think otherwise? That's the point. Just because you can't live up to a moral standard, however, does not give you the right to invalidate it.

 

By the way, we seem to think that "tolerance" means "blind acceptance". Wha?

[Flicker Sweet 3,391]

People embraced love and tolerance because it sounded cute. Now people learn that it's actually hard, are shocked, and say that there is no meaning in those words.

 

Yeah, guys, tolerating your enemies is HARD. Why did any self-righteous Brony think otherwise? That's the point. Just because you can't live up to a moral standard, however, does not give you the right to invalidate it.

 

By the way, we seem to think that "tolerance" means "blind acceptance". Wha?

It is extremely hard, but that's why it makes you a better person when you actually live up to it.  If you can overcome challenges, they'll make you stronger.

[AppleJackle 37]

Just because you can't live up to a moral standard, however, does not give you the right to invalidate it.

What on earth are you talking about? Did you even read what I said?

 

Of course, judging others for superficial reasons is ridiculous, and ignoring haters and bullies is the best way to get rid of them. I was never questioning this.

 

I think it's pretty obvious I'm not lowering the standard of trying to be a kind person to those who are mean.

 

This is the point

tolerating your enemies is HARD

 

This is why I created this thread, the attitude I am referring to.

 

No, one should not 'tolerate' an enemy. An enemy by definition is one who would do you harm. One does not passively take harm, that is my point.

 

  I get what your saying about defending ourselves but what would you rather our catch phrase be? "Tolerant, but Firm?", "Love, unless you cross us", "Strength throught Unity, Unity through Faith?".

 

This is actually exactly what I'm getting at. Let's get rid of this 'Love and tolerate' stuff, as it's utter nonsense.

 

That isn't to say that those are what I'm looking for. Obviously it's not 'Love, unless you cross us', something more like 'Love, unless you harm us'.

[Sks_Burns 730]

love and tolerate people till they threaten your life or fuck with those who you care about, then all bets are off and you have to do what is necessary to protect those you love and secure your own right to exist. 

 

remember, even Buddhists enter combat once in awhile.

[butter scotch 79]

Honestly you sound like some en-raged Brony hater...

Also it's 'Treaty' not 'Treatsie'!

Love and Tolerate is mainly used as a rule when dealing with haters, sure screw love but tolerate them (I.E: Ignoring them!)

but sometimes people accidentally or are just retards use it as a weapon.

Nobody will listen to you anyway so I wouldn't try plus it's not a treaty anyway since we're not actually making peace or anything!

[AppleJackle 37]

Honestly you sound like some en-raged Brony hater...

Also it's 'Treaty' not 'Treatsie'!

Love and Tolerate is mainly used as a rule when dealing with haters, sure screw love but tolerate them (I.E: Ignoring them!)

but sometimes people accidentally or are just retards use it as a weapon.

Nobody will listen to you anyway so I wouldn't try plus it's not a treaty anyway since we're not actually making peace or anything!

Actually, I did make an error in my spelling, but it's not what you pointed out. I'm not trying to sign a treaty with anypony. You honestly think I don't know what a treaty is?

 

'Treatise' is what I was going for.

 

Obviously I am not some 'enraged brony hater'... Would I be here, and a cupcake, if I was?

 

"Nobody will listen to you"

 

Thank you for your closed mind.

I cannot believe that I am the only one here to think this.