Bad News re: BronyDoc

[Prismatic 49]

My understanding is that you don't have to be selling it for it to be infringement, just distributing or exhibiting it. When judging a fan art case (at least in the US... i'm a bit ashamed to say I know more about how it works in the US than in my own country but I expect it's similar) various things are considered, one of which is whether the work is commercially distributed. Other factors include how transformative the the derivative work is, what its economic impact on the original work is and other things, all of which are considered.

 

Frankly, the place where fan art and copyright law meet is legal quagmire. Unless you can make the case that what you're doing is parody, in which case the person producing the fan art is in a stronger legal position, the best policy is simply "try not to piss of the guy whose work you're ripping off." Copyright holders don't HAVE to enforce their copyright -- it's up to them. So best not to make them want to.

 

I love you, Hasbro

 

EDIT: I am, of course, not a lawyer.

 

If you were a lawyer I'd expect you to not be on the forums?  Haha.

 

I suppose it also depends on the licensing of the works for it to be considered infringement.  For example I think Creative Commons is a lot more flexible than commercial licensing (I don't know, so don't quote me on that).

 

It's not a subject I know a lot about; all I know is that original characters tend to be stolen a lot on various pony sites and recolored in which the original designer/artist has them removed (if possible).

[Twisted Voodoo 21]

It was the only thing I pirated that I truly and utterly felt horrible about, but I did because I had never experience brony con and yes, though I may be on the internet right now, I truly never had the money for it, and had no other way of seeing it. But my feelings remain the same though, It was truly something I felt terrible about doing. The only solace I can find now is I've made a resolution to buy it as soon as I can, it's the only way I can make up for it. Blegh, Now I feel like a crick. -.-

[decoherence 183]

It's not a subject I know a lot about; all I know is that original characters tend to be stolen a lot on various pony sites and recolored in which the original designer/artist has them removed (if possible).

 

 

Heheh -- yeah that could be a more direct kind of copyright violation. It depends on how the OC was originally created. I'm pretty sure that if you create an OC from scratch in the pony style, that is considered an original work. I think tracing/vectorizing, however, is considered 'reproduction' so that wouldn't be considered original work though the person who did it might have some mechanical rights. Again, we're getting in to legal quagmire land

 

It was the only thing I pirated that I truly and utterly felt horrible about, but I did because I had never experience brony con and yes, though I may be on the internet right now, I truly never had the money for it, and had no other way of seeing it. But my feelings remain the same though, It was truly something I felt terrible about doing. The only solace I can find now is I've made a resolution to buy it as soon as I can, it's the only way I can make up for it. Blegh, Now I feel like a crick. -.-

 

I don't think you should feel like a crick, or a crook for that matter You want to pay for it and intend to when you are able and you feel bad about it -- all that speaks well about your character, I think, so don't beat yourself up

Edited February 8, 2013 by decoherence

[Prismatic 49]

 

Heheh

 

Hay.  Why are you laughing?  Was it something funny I said?

[EmmerichWolfe 47]

 

 

 

We might just be splitting hairs or disagreeing on semantics. I think the point where we disagree is what we mean by 'founded on.' My Little Pony episodes didn't spontaneously appear on YouTube -- early fans saw them from a legit source, loved them and posted them. So sure, piracy was a part of it early on and, as I said before (somewhere in that stupidly long post,) it's the reason the community is as large as it is (and why it grew so fast) but it wasn't piracy that appealed to those original fans. It's the things I talked about.

 

So I don't really think we disagree here.

 

Also, when you mention comics, I'm not sure whether you're talking about fan art or the official comics. I don't really know anything about how the official comics are getting pirated but that can't really have much to do with the early days of the community. I would hesitate to call fan art 'piracy.' Some lawyers would argue against that and some lawyers would argue for that. However, my understanding is that fan art, while still copyright infringement, is judged on a case by case basis if it is brought to trial.

 

In any case, I'm not saying the piracy isn't a big enabling factor and I'm not trying to make 'saints out of sinners.' I don't think there's anything particularly sinful about piracy or saintly about creativity or the ideals represented in the show. I think  that the statement 'the community is founded on piracy' is a very bold sounding, very vague statement that doesn't do anything describe why the show was pirated in the first place and why those pirated episodes were as popular as they were. So again, I think the only point we disagree on is what we mean by 'founded.'

 

 

 

That certainly seems to be the case. We'll see if BronyDoc decides to figure out how to make lemonade out of this lemon.

 

Right. When I say the fandom was founded on piracy, I'm referring to the fact that it was illegally distributed and uploaded to places that would garner more attention. Piracy played a big role in building the foundation of the current fanbase. Yes, the ones who did see it first probably viewed it on the Hub, but they also started the uploading process. 

 

As for the comic, I'm talking about the official release comics. My point on the comics was to illustrate how piracy is still a driving force in the fandom. But we don't even need to mention the comics, because if you want to get technical, bronies are still pirating the show despite Hasbro's approval. We could easily get screwed over by the Federal Government and it be no fault of Hasbro's.

 

We can disagree on semantics, and it's certainly true that the creativity within this fandom is one of the main attractions. It's a huge staple, yes, but the show was pirated by people who recognized the artistic integrity and quality of the show. They believed it should be shared, so they did so. Those who pirated the show recognized the creative quality of it. So, yes, it went hand-in-hand.   

[Twisted Voodoo 21]

thanks, that actually makes me feel a bit better!

[Prismatic 49]

 

Heheh -- yeah that could be a more direct kind of copyright violation. It depends on how the OC was originally created. I'm pretty sure that if you create an OC from scratch in the pony style, that is considered an original work. I think tracing/vectorizing, however, is considered 'reproduction' so that wouldn't be considered original work though the person who did it might have some mechanical rights. Again, we're getting in to legal quagmire land

 

Hehe alright!

 

Some of the cases I've had to deal with focus on the design alone.  Ponies making deriviatives of the design and OC name and claiming it as their own...Weird I know.

[Pixel Stick 927]

 

Frankly, the place where fan art and copyright law meet is legal quagmire. Unless you can make the case that what you're doing is parody, in which case the person producing the fan art is in a stronger legal position, the best policy is simply "try not to piss of the guy whose work you're ripping off." Copyright holders don't HAVE to enforce their copyright -- it's up to them. So best not to make them want to.

 

There's also the concept of "Fair Use", which is also legal quagmire.  Fair Use cases are actually even harder to interpret than parody, but the scope is also narrower (using a portion of a copyrighted work for a non-commercial project - within certain limits, this is allowed without express permission from the copyright holder.)

[Batbrony 16,052]

This is a dang shame, I tell ya what.   I myself have not bought the Brony Doc yet, but as such, I have also not seen the Brony Doc yet.  I get why episodes always end up on YouTube; Hasbro spent way too much time in the beginning encouraging that kind of behavior, so I don't feel bad watching episodes on YouTube.  BUT, the Brony Doc is an entirely different story; this was a privately funded endeavor entirely that no one needed to do, and yet, out of the goodness of their hearts, people were still willing to devote their time and energy to this labor of love funded entirely by the fans!  As such, they deserve to reap as many profits as they can for a project as gratuitous and unnecessary (but still AWESOME) as this, since, as I said, there was no reason the producers themselves had to do it, and yet they still did it, FOR US!!!  As such, I refuse to watch a pirated copy, and will only see the Brony Doc when I get the opportunity to purchase it, and everypony else in the community, if they want to honor those who developed the documentary, ought to do the same.  Shame on any and all the elements of the community that have dared to copy and distribute pirated copies of the Brony Doc!     I am disappointed in them indeed, truly, profoundly disappointed.  -_-

 

Edit: After thinking about it some, I'd like to apologize for being on a bit of a high horse earlier.  Not that I think it was right still, oh no, it was wrong and I'm still upset that bronies pirated it.  However, I will also say, especially for our community, that it's not that surprising, and the makers probably should've been far more careful with the film's release and not offered it for download first.  That was pretty naive on their part.

Edited February 8, 2013 by Batbrony

[decoherence 183]

We could easily get screwed over by the Federal Government and it be no fault of Hasbro's.

 

Really? I was always under the impression that it's a copyright holder's right to selectively choose when and where they want to enforce their copyright (as opposed to, say, trademarks which i believe have to be defended in the US or they become generic.) For the federal gov't to basically do an end-run around the copyright holder's rights seems inconsistent with that. Is that part of why people were so up in arms about the DMCA and its ilk? I know a lot has changed in recent years with how copyright works, both in the US and Canada.

 

Interesting stuff! I admit that most of what I (think I) know about copyright law comes from Canadian law as it applies to music, plus a fair bit of research in to the US concept of fair use when I started doing a comic that used vectorized images from the show (I discovered that what I assumed based on my limited knowledge of canadian law vs. how it actually works in the US were quite different!) I think I'll read up a bit  more on the subject.

 

Thanks for the thought provoking discussion

Edited February 8, 2013 by decoherence

[Prismatic 49]

If I am not mistaken that was the purpose of SOPA anyways.

[EmmerichWolfe 47]

Really? I was always under the impression that it's a copyright holder's right to selectively choose when and where they want to enforce their copyright

 

Look at what happened to Aaron Swartz. It is the right of the copyright holder to pursue legal action, but the Department of Justice can still file charges as pirating violates a federal law. Is it right? No. Is it a gross overreach of governing bodies? Yes. It's a huge mess, really.  

Edited February 8, 2013 by EmmerichWolfe

[Pixel Stick 927]

For the federal gov't to basically do an end-run around the copyright holder's rights seems inconsistent with that. Is that part of why people were so up in arms about the DMCA and its ilk? I know a lot has changed in recent years with how copyright works, both in the US and Canada.

 

The DMCA doesn't give the government the right or authority to pursue legal action on behalf of companies.  It expands the companies' rights to sue people for copyright violations and increases the penalties for illegally obtaining or distributing content.  But if the company chooses not to pursue legal action, the government has no say.  (To address Emmerich's point: The government can prosecute individuals for content piracy on its own, but they could do that long before the DMCA, and it's basically a different process than when a company is suing to protect its IP.)

 

(EDIT) One more clarification: You might be thinking of SOPA and PIPA, which were bills that were (thankfully) defeated last year.  (The DMCA was passed in 1998.)  These bills WOULD have given the government the authority to shut down websites and services that were deemed to exist for the purpose of circumventing copyright.  The definitions for these terms were overbroad and many people felt that the new laws would have threatened Internet Neutrality and the existence of sites like Wikipedia.

Edited February 8, 2013 by Harvan

[EmmerichWolfe 47]

The DMCA doesn't give the government the right or authority to pursue legal action on behalf of companies.  It expands the companies' rights to sue people for copyright violations and increases the penalties for illegally obtaining or distributing content.  But if the company chooses not to pursue legal action, the government has no say.  (To address Emmerich's point: The government can prosecute individuals for content piracy on its own, but they could do that long before the DMCA, and it's basically a different process than when a company is suing to protect its IP.)

 ^This

 

When the government pursues legal action against individuals involved in pirating, they're filing suits that basically state you violated a federal law, and it has little to nothing to do with what you stole or what the company's opinions are. 

[Pixel Stick 927]

 ^This

 

When the government pursues legal action against individuals involved in pirating, they're filing suits that basically state you violated a federal law, and it has little to nothing to do with what you stole or what the company's opinions are. 

 

That said, the government generally stays out of cases like this.  I skimmed quickly over the Aaron Swartz case (hadn't heard of it before this), and it looks like they targeted him specifically because (they thought) he was peddling academic materials, which steps more on the government's toes than, say, Hasbro's cartoons.  I don't know all the details, but it basically looks to me like the government felt it had more of a reason to act like a copyright holder in that case.

 

The fact is, tho, the kind of "piracy" we're discussing in this thread (about BronyDoc and MLP in general) is far, far below the government's radar.  They can't afford to care about stuff at this scale - that's part of why the DMCA exists.  To empower companies to aggressively protect their copyrights.  Do I agree with it?  Not really.  But that's my understanding of how it works.

[Nah 3,182]

Meh, I never really cared too much for it from the start, I just don't see the point of making a doc. Plus it will probably create more ridicule than good. :/

[decoherence 183]

Here is the latest from Mike Brockhoof for your consumption. He addresses several points raised in this thread. He must be listening to us!

 

 

 

Project Update #25: Clarification

Posted by Michael Brockhoff

 

As you are probably aware, there was a lot of reaction to yesterday's update. I wanted to clarify a few things.

 

Bonus Material

The announcement had nothing to do with discs which backers are already set to receive. If your pledge level included the bonus disc with extended interviews from Lauren, John and Tara, you will still get that disc. The main disc even includes two bonus segments, one on Galacon and one on B.U.C.K. We've even gone the extra mile to create not just the promised Blu-Ray discs, but Blu-Ray / DVD combo packs. As stated before, those masters are being sent to the replicator next week and will be ready to ship in about three weeks.

 

Budget / Production

I want to make it clear that we understand that perhaps we were naive in using pre-sales funds to increase the quality and scope of the film and deferring some of the traditional salaries to be paid by post-release sales to those who had not contributed already. We did so with the best of intentions. No, we did not enjoy a giant payday as some have suggested. For those who think so, I would like to point out that a very similar documentary, and some say not as good, "Comic-Con" had a 1.5 million budget. Also, consider the tremendous cost of providing backer rewards (t-shirts, art prints, shipping, meet & greet party, DVD's, etc).

 

We have not lost sight of the fact that this project would not have even been possible without the backers. At all times our goal was to give the people who pledged the most value for their support and we feel that is something we did achieve.

 

Piracy

Obviously we touched a nerve and many of you have very strong feelings on the subject. I want to make it clear that we did not call all Bronies pirates. We always anticipated some piracy, but did not know it woul d be as rampant. Yes, in hindsight we should have picked a different release strategy. We stand by our opinion that those who feel justified in downloading the film for free because "others already paid on their behalf" are just plain wrong. We appreciate some understanding that this is not a hobby for us. It's how we pay our bills and feed ourselves. If on its own there is no demand for the film, then so be it. But this is not a theoretical position, we are hurt by piracy and we are not in the same boat as a company like Hasbro who has multiple revenue streams like toy sales.

 

Future Releases

To those suggesting another Kickstarter campaign for the release of additional material. We appreciate your support and this is something we will consider. As previously stated, right now we need to put our time, energy and money into the mainstream release.

 

Mike & The Bronies Team

 

[Twisted Voodoo 21]

One of the biggest things I continue to see pop up over and over again is the fact that the production team should not have mad it available for download before releasing it. 

 

I have to disagree. Even if it was released on disk, hell, more than likely if it was released on disk, there would be even more people to pirate it, simply because they want it downloaded and not to have to go out an buy a copy, but I digress.

 

On one of the sites I am looking at, the documentary (Same one I downloaded) has 300 seeders and 20 leechers. in total 320 people downloaded the torrent file. I've also read on how many people later went on to pay for it because of the torrent. I can't say anything about youtube, and I'm one of the ones that haven't paid for it yet (I swear I will as soon as I can) but that fraction is small. And considering the amount of bronies that paid, what is the ratio to profit/loss? 

 

Not a mathematician by any means, so yeah my match could be way off, I simply say this to bring up another question:

 

Has torrents caused more damage...or youtube?

[decoherence 183]

One of the biggest things I continue to see pop up over and over again is the fact that the production team should not have mad it available for download before releasing it. 

 

I have to disagree. Even if it was released on disk, hell, more than likely if it was released on disk, there would be even more people to pirate it, simply because they want it downloaded and not to have to go out an buy a copy, but I digress.

 

On one of the sites I am looking at, the documentary (Same one I downloaded) has 300 seeders and 20 leechers. in total 320 people downloaded the torrent file. I've also read on how many people later went on to pay for it because of the torrent. I can't say anything about youtube, and I'm one of the ones that haven't paid for it yet (I swear I will as soon as I can) but that fraction is small. And considering the amount of bronies that paid, what is the ratio to profit/loss? 

 

Not a mathematician by any means, so yeah my match could be way off, I simply say this to bring up another question:

 

Has torrents caused more damage...or youtube?

 

Your point that many people who pirate it will go on to buy it may very well be correct. I recall a study was done recently (sorry, can't remember the source) that says people who pirate music also buy more music than people who don't pirate. I would guess this is because people who love music are both more likely to pirate it (because they want it) and more likely to want to support the artists creating it (because they love it). The two aren't mutually exclusive. Similar logic might apply here.

 

I think the most damaging thing about the pirating is that it makes it more difficult for BronyDoc LLC to convince more mainstream, 'offline' channels to show it. It's the 'offline' channels (fox news and stuff) is where Average Joe is seeing all of these uninformed opinions about bronies. Imagine one day that same Average Joe is flipping through the TV guide, sees this and turns it on out of curiosity. Less likely to happen now, unfortunately.

 

As far as which is worse for lost sales, bittorrent or youtube, I really couldn't say.

[FoxyCryptid 4,330]

Your point that many people who pirate it will go on to buy it may very well be correct. I recall a study was done recently (sorry, can't remember the source) that says people who pirate music also buy more music than people who don't pirate. I would guess this is because people who love music are both more likely to pirate it (because they want it) and more likely to want to support the artists creating it (because they love it). The two aren't mutually exclusive. Similar logic might apply here.

 

I think the most damaging thing about the pirating is that it makes it more difficult for BronyDoc LLC to convince more mainstream, 'offline' channels to show it. It's the 'offline' channels (fox news and stuff) is where Average Joe is seeing all of these uninformed opinions about bronies. Imagine one day that same Average Joe is flipping through the TV guide, sees this and turns it on out of curiosity. Less likely to happen now, unfortunately.

 

As far as which is worse for lost sales, bittorrent or youtube, I really couldn't say.

 

Being on Pirate Bay hasn't stopped anything else from getting a major release, and there has been stuff leaked while it's still in production.

 

Now, Youtube might be a different matter all together.  

Edited March 10, 2013 by Shoboni

[decoherence 183]

 

Being a Pirate Bay hasn't stopped anything else form getting major release, and there have ever been stuff leaked while it's still in production.

 

 

Good point. It might depend on what it is being pirated. I'm not aware of examples of what you're talking about (not to say there aren't, i know there are, I just don't know what they are), but if they're produced by large motion picture studios, I think distribution would be set up ahead of time. I could be wrong though, I don't really know how that stuff goes.

[FoxyCryptid 4,330]

Good point. It might depend on what it is being pirated. I'm not aware of examples of what you're talking about (not to say there aren't, i know there are, I just don't know what they are), but if they're produced by large motion picture studios, I think distribution would be set up ahead of time. I could be wrong though, I don't really know how that stuff goes.

 

I know a early production cut of one of the X-Men movies was leaked before it hit theaters, I don't remember which one of them though, I'm wanting to say it was X3.