Whos Fault was it, Fluttershy Or Iron Will?

[tranglam 28]

This is already a biased vote for me.

 

So I feel it isn't her fault simply because Iron Will wasn't even good at what he was doing. They emphasize this. All of his catch phrases are just over pushy and wouldn't help in a real situation. Sure she blew some of them up a bit, but not all of them. At the end he may have got his first useful phrase, and I would love to see him become better at his career, but he is still just a big pushy guy to me.

 

[NavelColt 22,877]

Iron Will's methods -are- brash, and that's why he's marked as an antagonist at all, because he basically taught people that it's fine to be a dick if someone else does something to you or says something to you that you deem to be a just reason to react to. There's teaching someone to stand up for themselves, and then there's teaching someone to be rude and even violent about it. The entire end of the episode was about toning down the core lessons Iron Will taught, so that, the value remained, but his brash, tactless methods of standing up for yourself were disregarded.

 

So, I do believe he was the catalyst for Flutterbitch. That said, Fluttershy did take the lessons out of hand a bit. I can see arguments for both sides, and I don't think the blame can even be majority ruled blamed on one of them. The situation is a combination of the two, and wouldn't have happened without them both.

[DaReaper 1,943]

Here we go it's neither flittershy's or iron will's fault it's pinky and rarity for pushing her to try to be mire assertive which caused her to go to iron will's wirk shop in the first place

[Sunny Fox 5,935]

Here we go it's neither flittershy's or iron will's fault it's pinky and rarity for pushing her to try to be mire assertive which caused her to go to iron will's wirk shop in the first place

If you're going to go by that logic, then Angel Bunny is to blame.  It was him throwing Fluttershy out the door that gave her the determination to go to the seminar. And even before that, it was his misbehaviour and his insistence on his supersalad that led up to the entire sequence of events involving Pinkie and Rarity.

 

Iron Will really does mistake aggression for assertion, which is shown by him threatening violence on Fluttershy if she didn't pay him. So his lessons were flawed from the start. Fluttershy got bad advice, simple as that. Although she took it a bit too far too, so she's not entirely off the hook either.

Edited July 21, 2013 by Full Spectrum
Dear "that", I hate my dependency on you

[Anadu Kune 668]

Why is both not an option? Iron will's teachings really seemed to encourage the type of abuse Fluttershy was doing.

"Never Apologize when you can criticize"

"you laugh at me I wrath at you"

"Make me lose Ill blow my fuse"

"If someone tries to block show them that you rock"

His whole stage demonstration with Fluttershy was pretty much learning how to be a jerk. The proper thing to do if someone if blocking your path is to polity ask for them to step aside. He never gives context to his phrases. Remember to never be sorry for any reason otherwise your a doormat. If someone laughs at you then you should totally let your full anger lose at them. Really all of his phrases are about domination and intimidation rather than being assertive. None of his phrase tells you to think of the emotions of others or the circumstances of situations. It would seem Iron Will just like Fluttershy doesn't understand how to be assertive but he does know how to intimidate people. People probably perceived him as a monster because his behavior just as much as his appearance. Just as Fluttershy perceived herself upon realizing the scope of her actions. 

Fluttershy followed his lessons and as I said before becoming a jerk seems the inevitable outcome of his lessons. Fluttershy got caught up in the moment. For once in her life she was in control of things around her. For once in her life she wasn't nervous and timid. She was just taking iron wills lessons to their ultimate usage when insulting Rarity and Pinkie Pie, after all "never apologize when you can criticize". However in the end she is responsible for her actions. Though in the end it was Fluttershy who taught Iron Will to be assertive properly.

So in the end it was the actions of both parties that caused the sequence of events. However if I had to lean in one direction it would be Iron Will's. When one unknowingly takes a class on assertiveness that actually teaches you how to be a jerk it shouldn't come as a surprise when that person unknowing becomes a jerk. 

[\/ 650]

It wasn't Fluttershy's fault. She's really succeptable, and Iron will was kind of taking advantage of that. His marketing was to blame, but Fluttershy may have overdone it, but have you seen her mad? She goes crazy! And she was mad about being a doormat all the time.

[Kyoshi Frost Wolf 40,505]

Fluttershy by far. Iron Will was just providing a service and Fluttershy took it waaaaaaay too far. In the end, she was really the on at fault and she did not even pay! He has a satisfaction guarantee, but it was HER own fault that she was not satisfied. That would be like me buying a new pair of shoes, then purposely jumping in mud for 3 hours straight then demanding my money back because they could'nt handle it. I guess Fluttershy was basically corrupted in a way, but it was still her fault in my opinion. Iron Will seems like a like-able fellow, he is just a tough guy-minatour.

 

Even as a Fluttershy fan, I blame her.

[TailsIsNotAlone 3,694]

I think it was Iron Will's fault for not being more clear with his lessons. He obviously saw that Fluttershy was the weakest least assertive pony in that crowd and he picked her and taught her to be assertive but then he didn't explain the boundaries. Like sometimes some ponies don't mean it so don't take their cameras and launch them into bell towers.

Well, that's really a common sense thing. Fluttershy didn't use common sense because she has no frame of reference for assertiveness. The first time she discovered an outlet for her frustration, she got carried away. Iron Will didn't know that would happen, he just picked her because she was one of the most timid-looking ponies in the crowd. Contrary to some earlier statements, Iron Will did not take her on as a 'student.' He wasn't standing behind her the whole episode telling her to do these things. He brought her onstage for a few minutes to demonstrate his points, that's it. Fluttershy is responsible for what she did afterwards and how literally she took his catchphrases.

Edited July 22, 2013 by TailsIsNotAlone

[Gay Bird 420]

I think it was a combination of a few things. First, it was rarity and pinkie who told fluttershy she was a pushover, and fluttershy feeling bad about herself became more desperate for change, and if I was in her place, I would take everything way to strictly as well. It was all just being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

[Flutter's lover <3 8,204]

It was all Fluttershy. Sure Iron Will gave her the nudge to be more assertive,but she went about doing it the wrong way. She was oblivious to her hurting other ponies/severity of her assertiveness.Like knocking the punch bowl over on Pinkie, bucking the garbage carts over top of Bon Bon and the other pony.tossing the tourist (camera guy) and,she even made Pinkie and Rarity cry. If she had a little more common sense, and knew how and when to use her new assertiveness, none of those things would've happened.

Edited July 22, 2013 by Flutter Dash

[Foreigner And Lover 207]

How can you blame Iron Will for trying to help people? Hell, I personally think that Iron Will was a very reasonable person. Fluttershy just took it the wrong way. It would be like blaming an AA group for causing someone to do crack. (OK that analogy sucks.)

[Bethielikesponies 81]

Fluttershy's. Iron Will didn't stand there over her shoulder and go "hey you should push a bowl of punch onto Pinkie Pie when she's laughing at a joke she made, that didn't make fun of you in anyway" or "haha you should insult your friends interests and stuff lol xx" 

 

I have more but I can't really be bothered typing it.

[spacestorm 183]

I don't think that we can so unequivocally identify exactly who to blame here.
Iron Will courses were open to anyone, and he couldn't have foreseen that someone will misconstrue his teachings. He couldn't devote his time to each individual. Of course he could clarify his message better, but we also don't know if there were more meetings, which Fluttershy attended. We saw in her house that she collected some materials related to his teachings.

 

I also wouldn't blame her so much.

Iron Will only uncorked her own penned up frustrations and emotions and she didn't know how to handle or control them.

Was it her fault that she couldn't control her emotions? Or maybe her friends that didn't react earlier to help her?

[--Thunder Bolt-- 534]

I think both have a share in the blame.  Iron Will made Fluttershy physically attack the goat to knock him/her out of her way, and publicly rewarded her for it in his demonstration.  As Anadu Kane pointed out, his catch-phrases are basically Instructions on How to be a Jerk.  He made it pretty clear in his demo that he did not intend for his teachings to be interpreted metaphorically or used within the bounds of politeness.

 

Fluttershy is responsible for failing to critically examine the content of the teachings and dial them down in response to the results they produced.  Plus I think she has some serious suppressed-anger issues.  

 

Pinkie and Rarity didn't help by calling Iron Will a "monster."  Would they have said that if he was a pony?

 

Oh, and Angel Bunny richly deserves a good, swift kick in the butt. 

[Argumedies 1,748]

I don't think that we can so unequivocally identify exactly who to blame here.

Iron Will courses were open to anyone, and he couldn't have foreseen that someone will misconstrue his teachings. He couldn't devote his time to each individual. Of course he could clarify his message better, but we also don't know if there were more meetings, which Fluttershy attended. We saw in her house that she collected some materials related to his teachings.

 

I also wouldn't blame her so much.

Was it her fault that she couldn't control her emotions? Or maybe her friends that didn't react earlier to help her?

I don't blame either one but responsibility is shared by both.

 

Iron Will is a businessman and saw an opportunity to make money. His goal was to sell a product, "assertiveness" and they purposely sought out the most timed in the crowed. Was the training overly aggressive? From what we saw from the stage performance, it probability was. but remember, his goal was to train her. His flaw was in his assumption that satisfaction was guaranteed.

 

Fluttershy on the other hoof, once she got over her initial intimidation of being chosen to go on stage, wanted it and allowed him to free her of those emotional barricades only she wasnt prepared for the flood that was behind them and she lost control.

 

So who was at fault? They both were. between his aggressiveness and her inhibitions we see the results in the story unfolding in disaster.

 

I never was a Fluttershy fan until this episode and is now my second favorite of the whole series

Edited July 22, 2013 by Argumedies

[HunterScars 505]

this is a good point you have brought up my friend but if iron will did not choose flutter shy as part of her demonstration and taught her how to correctly deal with annoying people then she wouldn't have gone over board 

[Argumedies 1,748]

this is a good point you have brought up my friend but if iron will did not choose flutter shy as part of her demonstration and taught her how to correctly deal with annoying people then she wouldn't have gone over board

Your right but hindsight is always 20/20

 

Its easy to step back and say if so and so didn't do such and such then this or that would or should have happened differently.

 

This is why I emphasize responsibility after the fact. She learned her lesson and he did not get his reward

 

It is what it is and I think it worked well in the end so as far as the overall story went I at least was satisfied

 

Now if we really want to place blame in that way. The real aggressor is Angle and his spoiled brat attitude and cherry obsessions which constitutes domestic violence as canon

 

Fact it I liked it so much I made this from it

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Be80ZhLLmR4

Edited July 22, 2013 by Argumedies

[Capt. Snuggle Gruff 101]

Fluttershy.  Iron Will was just doing his job, Flutter just went way too far.  Great episode, great story as well but yeah I think its Flutter's fault.

[sunset_sprint 190]

There was a lot of room left for interpretation in Iron Will's lessons and per the other posts I agree in thinking that Fluttershy took them the wrong way which caused her to grom from one extreme to the other.

[Galen 1,354]

I'd have to say Fluttershy in all honesty. Iron Will surely did encourage more aggressiveness in dealing with problems and obtaining assertiveness, but there's a fine line between being aggressive and downright being a douchebag. Iron Will, whilst assertive, definitely showed self-restraint. For instance, when he went to collect money from Fluttershy, yes, he did break down the boards blocking the door, but he didn't actually break the door down. He instead knocked as any civilized being would. And never did he actually harm Rarity or Pinkie Pie. And when Fluttershy expressed her dissatisfaction with him, he accepted her word and moved on. Someone who would go out of his way to cause disturbances in a peaceful town would be a lot more of a bully and a lot more forceful.

 

If the roles were reversed, and "new" Fluttershy was the one collecting money, she'd have broken that door down given how she behaved in ways harmful to others throughout the rest of the episode. Fluttershy exaggerated and went overboard with her lessons from Iron Will and she was responsible for her own actions. Iron Will can't be held responsible for what she does anymore than a martial arts instructor teaching people how to defend themselves could be held responsible for his students going to use his teachings to harm others. Iron Will basically went out to teach ponies to establish themselves and become as strong as a rock so as to not be pushed around by others easily anymore. Fluttershy instead turned into fire, burning down whatever issues she faced rather than deal with them straight on.

[Anadu Kune 668]

Fluttershy's. Iron Will didn't stand there over her shoulder and go "hey you should push a bowl of punch onto Pinkie Pie when she's laughing at a joke she made, that didn't make fun of you in anyway" or "haha you should insult your friends interests and stuff lol xx" 

 

I have more but I can't really be bothered typing it.

No but he did teach her that it was the proper thing to do. "You laugh at me I wrath at you" no context is given for proper usage. All of his teachings if followed the way he taught would inevitably lead to becoming a jerk. None of his lessons are about being assertive, but about being intimidating and dominating. Such is reflected in Iron Will's own actions in the end when dealing with Pinkie and Rarity. The only properly assertive thing Iron Will will teach was given to him by Fluttershy. No means no. 

[Bethielikesponies 81]

No but he did teach her that it was the proper thing to do. "You laugh at me I wrath at you" no context is given for proper usage. All of his teachings if followed the way he taught would inevitably lead to becoming a jerk. None of his lessons are about being assertive, but about being intimidating and dominating. Such is reflected in Iron Will's own actions in the end when dealing with Pinkie and Rarity. The only properly assertive thing Iron Will will teach was given to him by Fluttershy. No means no. 

Hm this is true, well done sir, you have outsmarted my argument, seeing as I can't get around what you said. Now I have to rethink this all again haha.

[Mywas 687]

No but he did teach her that it was the proper thing to do. "You laugh at me I wrath at you" no context is given for proper usage. All of his teachings if followed the way he taught would inevitably lead to becoming a jerk. None of his lessons are about being assertive, but about being intimidating and dominating. Such is reflected in Iron Will's own actions in the end when dealing with Pinkie and Rarity. The only properly assertive thing Iron Will will teach was given to him by Fluttershy. No means no. 

Actually no, it doesn't make you a jerk, agressive maybe but not a jerk. Just because a person can't take a joke doesn't make him a jerk. Some people are really nice but have a lot of limits like How Iron Will was

[Galen 1,354]

No but he did teach her that it was the proper thing to do. "You laugh at me I wrath at you" no context is given for proper usage. All of his teachings if followed the way he taught would inevitably lead to becoming a jerk. None of his lessons are about being assertive, but about being intimidating and dominating. Such is reflected in Iron Will's own actions in the end when dealing with Pinkie and Rarity. The only properly assertive thing Iron Will will teach was given to him by Fluttershy. No means no. 

 

Let's be fair, Fluttershy is shown to attend only one of his sessions. Not a lot can be taken from that. I'll give you that Iron Will didn't give a proper explanation on what he means by wrath, and so Fluttershy interpreted the meaning of the phrase on her own and took it literally rather than metaphorically. Assertiveness is what he taught, and he certainly wasn't dealing with Pinkie and Rarity in a violent manner the way Fluttershy did with other people who crossed her. That goes to show how Iron Will has lines set for himself whereas Fluttershy unrestricted herself entirely.

[Argumedies 1,748]

No but he did teach her that it was the proper thing to do. "You laugh at me I wrath at you" no context is given for proper usage. All of his teachings if followed the way he taught would inevitably lead to becoming a jerk. None of his lessons are about being assertive, but about being intimidating and dominating. Such is reflected in Iron Will's own actions in the end when dealing with Pinkie and Rarity. The only properly assertive thing Iron Will will teach was given to him by Fluttershy. No means no.

But this doesn't excuse Fluttershy's absolute verbal barrage against Pinky and Rarity.

 

And this is where the flood peaked by going beyond ignorant cliches. She made it personal and used her knowledge against her friends. Iron Will didn't teach her that and that's where his responsibilities end

 

This was more then just showing off. This was stepping over the line and possibly came from her true feelings she's kept quiet about.

 

Good thing her friends are really good friends