Why do people call Princess Luna sympathetic?

[pony.colin 156]

Sympathetic is not a word I would use to describe her character.

 

Regretful and remorseful are two words that I would better use to describe Luna's character (at times) depending on context and situation. Currently, post Nightmare Moon incident, that would describe her character.  Sympathetic describes a different situation.

Though more backstory would be nice so I could make some more impressions about it.

Edited July 20, 2014 by pony.colin

[Admiral Regulus 2,769]

You are aware that with that logic, you can justify Scar from the Lion King, right?

 

Actually, I've done this very thing before. Scar's backstory is pretty interesting. Sure, he was a murderer and a manipulator, I'll admit that. But when I look at The Lion King, what I see is that Mufasa is portrayed to be an infallible and downright Godly figure, which obviously isn't the case (for example, consider how he treated the hyenas, and look at how he demanded that everyone look up to him as the king). When Scar was younger, he lived his entire life in the shadow of his older brother—even though he was the smarter one, and probably better equipped to handle the position of king. He felt as though he had been wronged, and perhaps he actually was.

 

The same does apply to Luna, very much so. Yeah, I'll justify her. If I couldn't, then I would question the efficacy of the writers of the show. All characters should be justified in one way or another; having a flawed hero and also being able to sympathize with even the villain is the key to having a good story.

 

Everyone has a good side and a bad side—take a look at that one thread around here and you'll quickly see what I mean. Celestia is not all good, even though she is portrayed to be, like Mufasa. Likewise, Scar and Luna are not all bad. If they're both real characters, they have qualities that we can both appreciate and despise at the same time. And, because this discussion even exists, they do.

Edited July 20, 2014 by Regulus

[Hive King 1,998]

Actually, I've done this very thing before. Scar's backstory is pretty interesting. Sure, he was a murderer and a manipulator, I'll admit that. But when I look at The Lion King, what I see is that Mufasa is portrayed to be an infallible and downright Godly figure, which obviously isn't the case. When he was younger, Scar lived his entire life in the shadow of his older brother—even though he was the smarter one, and probably better equipped to handle the position of king. He felt as though he had been wronged, and perhaps he actually was.

 

The same does apply to Luna, very much so. Yeah, I'll justify her. If I couldn't, then I would question the efficacy of the writers of the show. All characters should be justified in one way or another; having a flawed hero and also being able to sympathize with even the villain is the key to having a good story.

Except that as per the backstory, Scar tried to murder Mufasa because his father wouldn't go hunting with him. Scar isn't the smarter one, even if he thinks he is. For God's sake, he thought that insulting some Cape Buffalo would lead to them hurting Mufasa instead of kicking his ass and nearly killing him. So no, Scar is just a sadistic and power hungry prick.

 

And that is incorrect. No one sympathizes with Joker and yet he is a good villain. You don't need to give a villain some sob story to make them likable

[Fractured 2,683]

It is entirely possible to sympathize with someone while not condoning their actions. I sympathize with Luna because I can empathize with what it would feel like to go through all of that hard work saving and building a kingdom, and fighting countless battles just to make Ponyville safe, and moving an entire celestial body across the sky every night... Just to have ponies ignore you and glamorize your sister, even though you guys are equal. However, I do not condone attempted genocide/fratricide... that's taking thing's... a bit too far.( I was always curious why she didn't refuse to raise the sun, it would've gone over so much better.)

Actually, I've done this very thing before. Scar's backstory is pretty interesting. Sure, he was a murderer and a manipulator, I'll admit that. But when I look at The Lion King, what I see is that Mufasa is portrayed to be an infallible and downright Godly figure, which obviously isn't the case (for example, consider how he treated the hyenas, and look at how he demanded that everyone look up to him as the king). When Scar was younger, he lived his entire life in the shadow of his older brother—even though he was the smarter one, and probably better equipped to handle the position of king. He felt as though he had been wronged, and perhaps he actually was.

 

The same does apply to Luna, very much so. Yeah, I'll justify her. If I couldn't, then I would question the efficacy of the writers of the show. All characters should be justified in one way or another; having a flawed hero and also being able to sympathize with even the villain is the key to having a good story.

 

Everyone has a good side and a bad side—take a look at that one thread around here and you'll quickly see what I mean. Celestia is not all good, even though she is portrayed to be, like Mufasa. Likewise, Scar and Luna are not all bad. If they're both real characters, they have qualities that we can both appreciate and despise at the same time. And, because this discussion even exists, they do.

So...there's hope for Diamond Tiara?

Edited July 20, 2014 by Shimmer5000

[Hive King 1,998]

@,

I personally like Diamond Tiara because she's such a sadistic little creep. She's so evil, but she's so fun to watch because of it. It's kind of like Kid Boo or Weevil Underwood, they're such nasty little children that you can't help but enjoy their evilness. 

 

But to answer your question, no, Diamond Tiara is a sadist through and through. 

 

 

Everyone has a good side and a bad side—take a look at that one thread around here and you'll quickly see what I mean. Celestia is not all good, even though she is portrayed to be, like Mufasa. Likewise, Scar and Luna are not all bad. If they're both real characters, they have qualities that we can both appreciate and despise at the same time. And, because this discussion even exists, they do.

You can't just make those assumptions. With that logic, Luna is pure evil even though she's not portrayed to be

[Admiral Regulus 2,769]

Except that as per the backstory, Scar tried to murder Mufasa because his father wouldn't go hunting with him. Scar isn't the smarter one, even if he thinks he is. For God's sake, he thought that insulting some Cape Buffalo would lead to them hurting Mufasa instead of kicking his ass and nearly killing him. So no, Scar is just a sadistic and power hungry prick.

 

Canonically? I know there's a lot of fan theories, many of which relate to a love interest between Scar and Sarabi or Sarafina, but I've never heard of that one. As far as I know, Scar's backstory is left open for speculation, as anything like that was never directly revealed in any of the movies.

 

And that is incorrect. No one sympathizes with Joker and yet he is a good villain. You don't need to give a villain some sob story to make them likable

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the Joker have a sob story for his background? I thought he was abused as a child, and even if he wasn't, then what was it that made him so... crazy?

 

 

So...there's hope for Diamond Tiara?

 

Why wouldn't there be? She's just a filly. Who knows, maybe she'll look back on herself one day and realize how terrible of a pony she was. Maybe someone will give her a taste of her own medicine. Maybe she'll go through a traumatic life experience and change her ways. We can't say anything for certain.

 

You can't just make those assumptions. With that logic, Luna is pure evil even though she's not portrayed to be

 

Actually, yeah I can. And I can because pure good and pure evil don't exist outside of fairy tales or children's stories.

 

What fictitious world do you live in where good and evil are such simplistic, black-and-white terms? Open your eyes. Take a look at the way nature works. There is no good or bad—only people, civilizations, and species struggling for their own survival. Morality is never absolute; at best it is a nebulous concept with a predefined set of guidelines that changes over time.

Edited July 20, 2014 by Regulus

[Hive King 1,998]

 

 

Canonically? I know there's a lot of fan theories, many of which relate to a love interest between Scar and Sarabi or Sarafina, but I've never heard of that one. As far as I know, Scar's backstory is left open for speculation, as anything like that was never directly revealed in any of the movies.

It was in a book

 

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the Joker have a sob story for his background?

Sometimes, sometimes not. He literally says he has a multiple choice past

 

 

Actually, yeah I can. And I can because pure good and pure evil don't exist outside of fairy tales or children's stories.

IT'S A CHILDREN'S STORY!!!!!!!

 

 

What fictitious world do you live in where good and evil are such simplistic, black-and-white terms? Open your eyes. Take a look at the way nature works. There is no good or bad—only people, civilizations, and species struggling for their own survival. Morality is never absolute; at best it is a nebulous concept with a predefined set of guidelines that changes over time.

AGAIN, WE'RE NOT TALKING ABOUT THE REAL WORLD, WE'RE TALKING ABOUT FICTIONAL CHARACTERS! IN WHAT REAL WORLD ARE THERE HORSES THAT MOVE THE SUN AND MOON!? 

[Admiral Regulus 2,769]

@,

 

Well, what about this. Don't you think it's a good thing for a children's story such as MLP to resemble the real world? Don't you think it's a good thing to create a complex villain who is redeemed and shown to be not all bad? We saw it with Luna, and we saw it again with Discord. The thought that even those who are "evil" can change their ways and become a better person shouldn't be farfetched. It's an important thing to learn, I think—just as valuable as any other friendship lesson, if not even more so.

[Hive King 1,998]

@,

 

Well, what about this. Don't you think it's a good thing for a children's story such as MLP to resemble the real world? Don't you think it's a good thing to create a complex villain who is redeemed and shown to be not all bad? We saw it with Luna, and we saw it again with Discord. The thought that even those who are "evil" can change their ways and become a better person shouldn't be farfetched. It's an important thing to learn, I think—just as valuable as any other friendship lesson, if not even more so.

Except for Sombra who got nuked to Hell and back. Except for Chrysalis, who was probably splattered against a rock at the speed she was sent flying. Except for Tirek, who was literally sent to Hell. Except for the Pinkie clones, who were exploded.

 

Honestly, only Luna, Babs, and Discord come to mind for redemption in MLP. Maybe Trixie, but it seemed more like she was ass kissing

[Admiral Regulus 2,769]

Except for Sombra who got nuked to Hell and back. Except for Chrysalis, who was probably splattered against a rock at the speed she was sent flying. Except for Tirek, who was literally sent to Hell. Except for the Pinkie clones, who were exploded.

 

Honestly, only Luna, Babs, and Discord come to mind for redemption in MLP. Maybe Trixie, but it seemed more like she was ass kissing

 

So...?

 

Not every character has to be redeemed for the message to sink in.

[IceeBrony 251]

 

Actually, I've done this very thing before. Scar's backstory is pretty interesting. Sure, he was a murderer and a manipulator, I'll admit that. But when I look at The Lion King, what I see is that Mufasa is portrayed to be an infallible and downright Godly figure, which obviously isn't the case (for example, consider how he treated the hyenas, and look at how he demanded that everyone look up to him as the king). When Scar was younger, he lived his entire life in the shadow of his older brother—even though he was the smarter one, and probably better equipped to handle the position of king. He felt as though he had been wronged, and perhaps he actually was.

 

The same does apply to Luna, very much so. Yeah, I'll justify her. If I couldn't, then I would question the efficacy of the writers of the show. All characters should be justified in one way or another; having a flawed hero and also being able to sympathize with even the villain is the key to having a good story.

 

Everyone has a good side and a bad side—take a look at that one thread around here and you'll quickly see what I mean. Celestia is not all good, even though she is portrayed to be, like Mufasa. Likewise, Scar and Luna are not all bad. If they're both real characters, they have qualities that we can both appreciate and despise at the same time. And, because this discussion even exists, they do.

I really like this idea. A grey version instead of just black or white. Makes me a bit curious about Scar's backstory.

 

@,

 

Well, what about this. Don't you think it's a good thing for a children's story such as MLP to resemble the real world? Don't you think it's a good thing to create a complex villain who is redeemed and shown to be not all bad? We saw it with Luna, and we saw it again with Discord. The thought that even those who are "evil" can change their ways and become a better person shouldn't be farfetched. It's an important thing to learn, I think—just as valuable as any other friendship lesson, if not even more so.

Complex characters make much better villains. It's easy to hate something pure evil. But, when you can sympathize with them, things get interesting.

Edited July 21, 2014 by SkyBound

[Nuke87654 1,849]

 

 

I really like this idea. A grey version instead of just black or white. Makes me a bit curious about Scar's backstory.

 

Complex characters make much better villains. It's easy to hate something pure evil. But, when you can sympathize with them, things get interesting

 

 

You don't have to sympathize with a villain to make a good villain or a character to like. For example, Frieza from DBZ is a straight up asshole who murdered billions just to get off on his power ego trips but yet he's easily one of if not the best villain in the DB series all because for just how awesome of a villain and character he is.

Edited July 21, 2014 by SkyBound

[The Coffee Pony 1,390]

Jeeeez....such unnecessary hostility over magical talking ponies of all things!!

 

As for the topic itself

 

-If you believe the comics are canon, which I do, then I'd consider Luna sympathetic as Nightmare Moon was a separate entity who possessed, warped and twisted her mind turning her into an evil being. I also recall that Faust confirming this was the case long before the comics came out.

 

-Now if you don't believe the comics were canon it wasn't an entity and was entirely all Luna then I can't say she's sympathetic at all as she did what she did entirely out of petty jealousy and didn't bother to talk to anyone about her problems. The only thing that really makes her sympathetic is that she suffers from culture shock after 1000 years of isolation and that some ponies still fear her after being reformed. Though again even if you don't believe the comics were canon I recall Faust confirming that Nightmare Moon was a separate entity so that may render this point moot.

[Nuke87654 1,849]

Jeeeez....such unnecessary hostility over magical talking ponies of all things!!

 

As for the topic itself

 

-If you believe the comics are canon, which I do, then I'd consider Luna sympathetic as Nightmare Moon was a separate entity who possessed, warped and twisted her mind turning her into an evil being. I also recall that Faust confirming this was the case long before the comics came out.

 

-Now if you don't believe the comics were canon it wasn't an entity and was entirely all Luna then I can't say she's sympathetic at all as she did what she did entirely out of petty jealousy and didn't bother to talk to anyone about her problems. The only thing that really makes her sympathetic is that she suffers from culture shock after 1000 years of isolation and that some ponies still fear her after being reformed. Though again even if you don't believe the comics were canon I recall Faust confirming that Nightmare Moon was a separate entity so that may render this point moot.

 

Problem was is that according to the comics, she willingly allowed the entity to manifest in her mind as it promised her power and she liked the idea of making the ponies know how special she was by making her fear her and the nightmare forces knew exactly how to pull her chords to get her on her good side. Heck as much as I dislike the 'Refelections arc', it did point out that  Luna pretty much shut off whatever attempt Celestia made to try and conciliate with her before she turned to Nightmare Moon. Thus by those viewpoints, it actually shows of how big of a fool Luna was to not only allow deal with what are essentially demons for power, but to also deny whatever chance to Celestia to make things better for her was also bad.

 

As for this topic's question, my answer is that I do not sympathize Luna's actions to become Nightmare Moon because nothing will justify the attempt to either kill or dethrone her sister while laughing about it, and essentially killing off the entire planet all for the sake of making the sapient inhabitants admire her night by forcing the night upon them in an unnatural manner.

 

What I do admire her character for is of how Luna is trying to find redemption for her terrible actions she now knows and is ashamed for doing by being as some sort of dream guardian at night where she enters into ponies who are plagued by problems, is willing to go out and defend the kingdom from whatever problems through whatever way she can, and is trying to mingle with the inhabitants whenever she is presented the opportunity to try and fix her otherwise outdated social mannerisms.

 

On that matter, I find it sort of ironic that some of the more extreme fans of Luna try to justify Luna's actions in what they believe would help make their princess appear better is actually paying a huge disrespect to her character arc by essentially stating that her actions in finding her redemption for her past deeds is pointless as she did no wrong according to them, or most of the blame should be shouldered on her sister Celestia despite Celestia actually making the attempt to help her only for Luna to refuse and Celestia pretty much welcoming Luna back with open arms despite her previous attempt to dethrone or even murder her and she even gave Luna a spotlight of honor in Equestria the year after her return to celebrate it and her nights in the season 4 premier.

[Hive King 1,998]

I really like this idea. A grey version instead of just black or white. Makes me a bit curious about Scar's backstory.

If you are that curious

http://lionking.wikia.com/wiki/A_Tale_of_Two_Brothers

There's a book about it. Shockingly, Taka/Scar is still a douchebag

 

 

Complex characters make much better villains. It's easy to hate something pure evil. But, when you can sympathize with them, things get interesting

So I assume that The Joker, Freeza, Tirek, King Ghidorah, and Chakravartin are bad villains? Not to mention pretty much every horror movie villain is just pure evil. A villain doesn't even need to have human emotions to be fun to watch, see werewolves and the like. 

 

Sympathy in a villain can be good, but not every villain needs it and it feels tacked on sometimes, such as with Hans of Frozen, who gets a pretty lame reason.

Edited July 21, 2014 by SkyBound

[IceeBrony 251]

Sympathy does not equate to justification.

People find Luna sympathetic, therefore she is. If you can't understand that's one thing. But it seems that some people don't want to understand. So I encourage anyone who sympathizes with Luna to abandon this thread and let those who remain vent in private.

[Fractured 2,683]

I'm actually not so sure on the whole "eternal night=genocide" thing.The Everfree forest is a wild place where animals take care of themselves, and plants grow on their own... I'm under the assumption Earth Pony magic is capable of growing food as long as the earth can sustain it. Appaloosa, a place where Apple trees are planted where there's no discernible water source, would support this theory. Applebloom also grew a plant magically, proving it's possible to go that route too. As far as freezing to death goes, in Hearths Warming Eve and The Crystal Empire showed, they don't really seem to care about down-right sub-zero conditions; the only inclement weather conditions that affected them involved being completely exposed to the sun, then being flash frozen in MMC. (Not that it would get that cold, there's still a sun producing heat, it's just covered up.) This is all, of course, assuming the sun and moon even maintain those processes in Equestria, because the only thing the sun and moon seem to do is provide light. They're... not normal celestial bodies, if you've noticed.

[The Coffee Pony 1,390]

Sympathy does not equate to justification.

People find Luna sympathetic, therefore she is. If you can't understand that's one thing. But it seems that some people don't want to understand. So I encourage anyone who sympathizes with Luna to abandon this thread and let those who remain vent in private.

 

Yes, how dare anyone have an opposing view and intelligent debate!? Worst people ever!

Edited July 20, 2014 by The Coffee Man

[Hive King 1,998]

@,

I believe Faust said something to the lines of it killing everypony 

[Fractured 2,683]

@,

I believe Faust said something to the lines of it killing everypony 

Did she really? It is the episodes she worked on, so she would have the best understanding...do you remember where she said it?

[Hive King 1,998]

Did she really? It is the episodes she worked on, so she would have the best understanding...do you remember where she said it?

I don't know, I believe TV tropes had a link to it

[Fractured 2,683]

I only see this: http://mlp.derpynews.com/lauren-faust-on-lunas-banishment/
It talks about an era of evil; something that ponies need to be alive for. Also... how are people going to admire your beautiful night if their dead? NMM probably would've used some manner to keep the "free" world enslaved, but alive.(It's not genocide...it's enslavement!)

[Hive King 1,998]

I only see this: http://mlp.derpynews.com/lauren-faust-on-lunas-banishment/

It talks about an era of evil; something that ponies need to be alive for. Also... how are people going to admire your beautiful night if their dead? NMM probably would've used some manner to keep the "free" world enslaved, but alive.(It's not genocide...it's enslavement!)

Oh, my mistake, world wide enslavement. That's still incredibly douchey, debatably worse

[Adorkable 2,737]

Well, if my memory serves correctly, wasn't she holding the Element of Kindness in Princess Twilight Sparkle? (Season 4 premiere)

 

Not to mention how much of a desire she had to connect with her subjects in Luna Eclipsed, I can see fans calling her sympathetic.

[Fractured 2,683]

It seems more to me that Luna has given up on the current generation and instead has a soft spot for children; she's connected more with Scootaloo and Sweetie Belle than she ever has the Mane Six, or, from what we've seen, Celestia for that matter. It seems she's decided her destiny is to stay in the shadows, which raises the question...