Celestia vs Luna

[Chivalry Knight 161]

Luna would win because Celestia refuses to fight her sister

[Plato's Pony 455]

 

 

To throw in a totally new thought, I'd say in 100 years or so, Twilight could kick both their asses put together.

 

Would Twilight even be able to live that long?  She's an alicorn, but an artificial one.

[Fractured 2,684]

 

Would Twilight even be able to live that long?  She's an alicorn, but an artificial one.

 

It was said Twilight won't outlive her friends, but how long do ponies live, anyway? Starswirl's was around for centuries.

[Hive King 2,001]

Luna would win because Celestia refuses to fight her sister

OP says they are going all out. What makes you think Luna would fight?

 

It was said Twilight won't outlive her friends, but how long do ponies live, anyway? Starswirl's was around for centuries.

Granny was around for like three hundred years, easy. Probably more. This does make the lack of knowledge on NMM and Discord seem highly suspect. If about three generations have passed, how does no one know? The lack of knowledge makes sense for human life spans, but not for pony lifespans

[WindyParadise 59]

I think the MLP ponies live far longer to Earth(pardon) ponies but I wouldn't be surprised if the show reveals Starswirl to have used some kind of magic to extend his life.

[Sunny Fox 5,950]

Snip

Rather than split the quotes, I’ll just copy and paste your sentences instead.

 

It's an illusion.

 

I agree it was an illusion, although for different reasons. After going back to Luna form, she spat out the fake sharp teeth, whereas true NMM has sharp teeth naturally.

 

If it wasn't, surely Luna would have simply donned the form permanently, at least during the Wedding Crisis where everyone was on guard.

 

Why is it “surely”? She used the illusion on Nightmare Night to scare the fillies and colts, at Twilight’s behest, to show that she could be scary but fun. There was a purpose to it. I don’t see the purpose in using it during the wedding, especially since they were relying on the shield to protect them.

 

So because Luna cracked stone and Celestia hasn't, she's stronger? Celestia has never been in a position to do so, it's like saying RD is weaker than Applebloom, because RD hasn't bucked trees

 

As a matter of fact, RD HAS bucked apple trees, in “Applebuck Season”.

But I see your point; I didn’t phrase it very well. I should rather say that Nightmare Moon defeated Celestia, so if Luna is as strong as Nightmare Moon (which breaking stuff could be hinting towards, since she did it as both Luna – see original post - and Nightmare Moon - in the pilot), then she should win a fight between the two. (Case 1 restated.)

 

Perhaps you’re going to say that Celestia was holding back, so that battle doesn’t count. First, even if we can agree that she was holding back, which seems undeniable, we still have no reason to assume that things would have been any different had she gone all out. To use your own situation with the boxers; that the second boxer didn’t want to fight back doesn’t automatically mean they would win if they did fight back. (BTW, “cheap shot”, is it? I see what you did there.) The same thing applies to the NNM fight and the Queen battle below.

 

She was holding back, compare their facial expressions. 

 

Chrysalis is on the verge of wetting herself and is screaming "No!" whilst Celestia just looks mildly annoyed. 

 

You’re exaggerating again. The Queen flinched and yelped a bit. She wasn’t even straining all that much. She seemed to be expecting a lot more of a challenge than she got. The exact same way the anticipation of pain tends to be a lot worse than the pain itself. Next, none of Celestia’s expressions (more than the single image you provided, by the way) was “mildly annoyed”. Angry and determined, and later surprised when the Queen’s magic started pushing hers back, sure.

 

And then I have to ask, if she realized she was losing, why didn’t she pour on more power? She seemed to have enough time to have an “Oh, crap” moment, so it wasn’t as if she had no reaction time.

Even Chrysalis admits that she's shocked she could do it.

 

How is that relevant to the relative strengths of the two princesses? It only shows that the Queen was surprised she won, not that Celestia is stronger than Luna. Nor does it help prove Celestia was holding back.

 

The final nail in the coffin is that Chrysalis doesn't care about Luna. If Luna was stronger, her boast that she's stronger than Celestia is pointless.

 

Not much of a nail, if you ask me. She doesn’t mention Luna, so asserting that she “doesn’t care about her” is baseless. She didn’t even seem to be aware of Celestia, who was in the same room, until she challenged her, much less a pony not even present, and is in fact hinted to have been away from the city at the time. (Since she earlier came in through the shield to take her turn at watch)

 

 

Your argument is based on taking a lack of evidence (the Queen not mentioning Luna) and interpreting it to fit your own idea of what you think the Queen believed. I could do that too. I could say that the Queen didn’t dare let herself think of Luna because she knew how much strong Luna is than both her and Celestia, and that she would curb stomp her. 

 

Luna being stronger or weaker than Celestia doesn’t change the fact that the Queen was happy at downing Celestia, hence her boast. That argument might have been more convincing if she had gone on to say, “Now nopony can stop me!” or something similar, which she doesn’t. And even if I bent over backwards to accept your interpretation of what the Queen was thinking at the time, that wouldn’t prove anything other than that the Queen thought Celestia was stronger than Luna. It wouldn’t necessarily make it true.

 

Basically, a lot of people seem to assume that Celestia has this vast hidden power that she never demonstrates. The fact of the matter is that she lost both battles we’ve seen her go into solo, and whenever she succeeded against a foe, it was always done in tandem with Princess Luna, making her hidden power a matter of conjecture. Whereas Luna/NMM has actually wrecked shit, so we’ve seen her power demonstrated. Of course, maybe Celestia will prove me wrong and lay a huge beat down on some foe in the future, but for now, I’m going with Luna.

[Hive King 2,001]

 

 

Why is it “surely”? She used the illusion on Nightmare Night to scare the fillies and colts, at Twilight’s behest, to show that she could be scary but fun. There was a purpose to it. I don’t see the purpose in using it during the wedding, especially since they were relying on the shield to protect them.

Everyone was onguard, if she has a form to make her stronger, she'd be a fool not to take it on

 

 

You’re exaggerating again. The Queen flinched and yelped a bit. She wasn’t even straining all that much. She seemed to be expecting a lot more of a challenge than she got. The exact same way the anticipation of pain tends to be a lot worse than the pain itself. Next, none of Celestia’s expressions (more than the single image you provided, by the way) was “mildly annoyed”. Angry and determined, and later surprised when the Queen’s magic started pushing hers back, sure.   And then I have to ask, if she realized she was losing, why didn’t she pour on more power? She seemed to have enough time to have an “Oh, crap” moment, so it wasn’t as if she had no reaction time.

Celestia probably tried, but it wasn't enough regardless. I'm not saying she's stronger than a roided up Chrysalis, but she was still able to shock her and make her scream out "No!". Even after winning, she looks surprised

 

As for the rest of it, your case can be stated as

"Luna has blown up more stuff, Celestia has lost all battles she's in. Luna's stronger!"

There's false equivalence there. Luna blew up more stuff because she was the villain at that point and she has no control over her emotions. Celestia has never been in a situation where she'd want or need to blow things up.

 

As for Celestia's enemies, with one, she didn't want to fight her in the first place and the other one wasn't compared to Luna in any fashion. 

 

Also, Chrysalis had to have known about Luna, she came in before the shield went up(the threat she made) and Luna was seen very freely on the tower right outside of where she was staying. If Luna was stronger, then Chrysalis might as well not have even bothered, she would have lost come nightfall. And yet, she's confident in her ability to remain in control. She was arrogant yes, but she'd have to be arrogant beyond all measure to forget Luna being stronger, if this were indeed true

[Sanctified Absence 126]

Celestia obviously has more Magical skill than Luna, though the amount of power each of them have is debatable because of this very reason.

 

I'd rather not go into a whole paragraph right now but long story short, Celestia would make for a better combatant and would win 8-9 times out of 10 if both were really going for it.

 

Assuming both of them are IC? I'd say Celestia's win ratio drops to 6 out of 10, this is assuming we're going with pre/during Luna's Nightmare Moon 'phase.'  

Edited November 5, 2014 by Sanctified Absence

[Plato's Pony 455]

 

 

Also, Chrysalis had to have known about Luna, she came in before the shield went up(the threat she made) and Luna was seen very freely on the tower right outside of where she was staying. If Luna was stronger, then Chrysalis might as well not have even bothered, she would have lost come nightfall. And yet, she's confident in her ability to remain in control. She was arrogant yes, but she'd have to be arrogant beyond all measure to forget Luna being stronger, if this were indeed true

 

If you're saying that Chrysalis believes Luna was not an issue, shouldn't she have attacked the kingdom at night, when Celestia was sleeping and Luna was keeping guard?  Instead, Chrysalis attacked the kingdom during the day, with Celestia on guard.

[Hive King 2,001]

 

If you're saying that Chrysalis believes Luna was not an issue, shouldn't she have attacked the kingdom at night, when Celestia was sleeping and Luna was keeping guard?  Instead, Chrysalis attacked the kingdom during the day, with Celestia on guard.

 

No, you're mistaken. Chrysalis was weak without love and she was forced to tip her hand when the real Cadence showed up, she had no choice but to fight Celestia. She was also shocked at her victory over Celestia. 

 

More than likely, her plan was to stock up on more love than was seen and only when she was absolutely sure, kill Luna and Celestia. 

 

Chrysalis only believed Luna wasn't an issue after she had confirmed her own might was enough to beat Celestia

[blank 88]

Luna would, she bested celly 1k years ago, and has access to different magic, and practical intangibility.

 

Celestia also isn't a person to use violence.

Edited November 5, 2014 by Nightmare Jerremy

[Plato's Pony 455]

 

 

Chrysalis only believed Luna wasn't an issue after she had confirmed her own might was enough to beat Celestia

She never mentions Luna or any other pony after defeating Celestia, though.  She only says something like "Wow, I have enough power to defeat Celestia" or something similar to that. 

[Hive King 2,001]

She never mentions Luna or any other pony after defeating Celestia, though.  She only says something like "Wow, I have enough power to defeat Celestia" or something similar to that. 

And isn't worried about Luna in the slightest. You see, if Luna was stronger, don't you think that Chrysalis's first concern would be amassing more love from Shining Armor so that she could beat Luna? Or at least showing a little concern that there's someone stronger out there, thus making her victory meaningless?

 

Luna would, she bested celly 1k years ago, and has access to different magic, and practical intangibility.

 

Celestia also isn't a person to use violence.

I guess I imagined when Celestia tried to nuke Chrysalis and that the OP says Celestia is going all out. 

 

And it was Nightmare Moon doing the besting against a Celestia who wasn't in a fighting mood. And intangibility means nothing what so ever, it's just a delayed teleport with the way Nightmare Moon used it

[Plato's Pony 455]

 

 

Celestia obviously has more Magical skill than Luna, though the amount of power each of them have is debatable because of this very reason.   I'd rather not go into a whole paragraph right now but long story short, Celestia would make for a better combatant and would win 8-9 times out of 10 if both were really going for it.

 

We don't know for sure whether Celestia has more power than Luna or not.  We've never seen either of them demonstrate their maximum magical power in any way.  Plus, we don't know much of anything of their fighting skill, so we don't know enough to predict who would win in a fight.

[Sanctified Absence 126]

We don't know for sure whether Celestia has more power than Luna or not.  We've never seen either of them demonstrate their maximum magical power in any way.  Plus, we don't know much of anything of their fighting skill, so we don't know enough to predict who would win in a fight.

 

Perfectly true, my point is merely speculation created through the multiple instances we have seen of Luna and Celestia's Magical capabilities.

 

So I can't say for sure, I merely believe that Celestia would win 8-9/10 fights assuming bloodlust, and 6-7/10 fights assuming IC.

[Plato's Pony 455]

 

 

And isn't worried about Luna in the slightest

 

For all we know, she could be worried about Luna, she's just not saying it out loud.

 

You see, if Luna was stronger, don't you think that Chrysalis's first concern would be amassing more love from Shining Armor so that she could beat Luna?

She was surprised that she actually beat Celestia, which means she had no idea how much power she actually had.

[Hive King 2,001]

 

 

For all we know, she could be worried about Luna, she's just not saying it out loud

Conjecture, my statement shows that she sees Celestia as the benchmark for power, the thing she definitely has to defeat

 

 

She was surprised that she actually beat Celestia, which means she had no idea how much power she actually had

If she can beat one, she can beat the other. That's the logic being used, since Chrysalis shows no concern for Luna

[JonasDarkmane 19,785]

 

 

And isn't worried about Luna in the slightest. You see, if Luna was stronger, don't you think that Chrysalis's first concern would be amassing more love from Shining Armor so that she could beat Luna? Or at least showing a little concern that there's someone stronger out there, thus making her victory meaningless?

 

Why should Chrysalis be worrying about Luna? Luna was not there, she was only protecting Canterlot during the night. It was day time when Chrysalis was fighting Celestia so she did not need to worry about Luna. And Chrysalis being surprised that she could defeat Celestia does not automatically state that she was saying that Celestia is better then Luna. You are speculating there. We are never really given Chrysalis' view on who she thinks is stronger. 

[Hive King 2,001]

Why should Chrysalis be worrying about Luna? Luna was not there, she was only protecting Canterlot during the night. It was day time when Chrysalis was fighting Celestia so she did not need to worry about Luna. And Chrysalis being surprised that she could defeat Celestia does not automatically state that she was saying that Celestia is better then Luna. You are speculating there. We are never really given Chrysalis' view on who she thinks is stronger. 

Chrysalis can't be that idiotic to go

"Well, if I beat Celestia, then Luna won't ever come, even though she'd beat me down. Perfect!"

 

Chrysalis uses Celestia as the benchmark for power, she compares herself to her, everything about the scene implies she views Celestia as the biggest challenge

[JonasDarkmane 19,785]

 

 

"Well, if I beat Celestia, then Luna won't ever come, even though she'd beat me down. Perfect!"

Never said that Chrysalis thought that Luna was stronger.  Otherwise I would be biased. 

 

And who knows if she can't be that idiotic. You can be smart and everything, but you can also become overconfident

[blank 88]

And isn't worried about Luna in the slightest. You see, if Luna was stronger, don't you think that Chrysalis's first concern would be amassing more love from Shining Armor so that she could beat Luna? Or at least showing a little concern that there's someone stronger out there, thus making her victory meaningless?

 

 

I guess I imagined when Celestia tried to nuke Chrysalis and that the OP says Celestia is going all out.

 

And it was Nightmare Moon doing the besting against a Celestia who wasn't in a fighting mood. And intangibility means nothing what so ever, it's just a delayed teleport with the way Nightmare Moon used it

chrysy was going all out.

I'm pretty sure celly was holding back, due to there being ponies nearby.

maybe chrysy didn't know about Luba much?

 

Oh and, NMM was evenly matched for a short while when cely was using the elements to power her attack...

 

Ps: I believe Luna woukd be smarter than to just 1v1 a creature who is using a kind of life force for power,

Edited November 5, 2014 by Nightmare Jerremy

[Plato's Pony 455]

 

 

Conjecture, my statement shows that she sees Celestia as the benchmark for power, the thing she definitely has to defeat

It just so happens that Chrysalis had her cover blown by Twilight during the day, meaning she wasn't anticipating the battle with Celestia.  

 

If she can beat one, she can beat the other. That's the logic being used, since Chrysalis shows no concern for Luna

She never even MENTIONED having a concern for either of the two. 

[aniles2004 3]

I think it's Luna. In the first episode, Luna managed to make Celestia vanish before Twilight and her pals went to find the Elements of Harmony. And in the battle of Celestia vs. Nightmare Moon, Celestia only won because she had the Elements on her side.

[Hive King 2,001]

 

 

Oh and, NMM was evenly matched for a short while when cely was using the elements to power her attack...

Evenly matched? For that to work, you have to make her stronger than Discord, which is sheer insanity, seeing as how Discord smashed Celestia and Luna's collective butts with no effort

 

 

Also, that's not holding it back. Her beam was forced back the entire time

 

 

Ps: I believe Luna woukd be smarter than to just 1v1 a creature who is using a kind of life force for power,

Luna hasn't really shown any combat intelligence

 

I think it's Luna. In the first episode, Luna managed to make Celestia vanish before Twilight and her pals went to find the Elements of Harmony. And in the battle of Celestia vs. Nightmare Moon, Celestia only won because she had the Elements on her side.

That was Nightmare Moon doing it and in the first case, something was up, in their last fight, Nightmare Moon went through quite some trouble to catch her

[aniles2004 3]

Evenly matched? For that to work, you have to make her stronger than Discord, which is sheer insanity, seeing as how Discord smashed Celestia and Luna's collective butts with no effort

 

 

Also, that's not holding it back. Her beam was forced back the entire time

 

 

Luna hasn't really shown any combat intelligence

 

That was Nightmare Moon doing it and in the first case, something was up, in their last fight, Nightmare Moon went through quite some trouble to catch her

 I guess you're kinda right.