Does Celestia have malevolent motivations?

[NavelColt 22,883]

Yes because taking out tyrants ends up working so well in real Life

 

You're right. But as I established in my post, this isn't real life. As much as many people wish it were. 

[Nnoitra 9]

You're right. But as I established in my post, this isn't real life. As much as many people wish it were. 

Still even if taking out Sombra was a good thing makimg it a test for Twilight was an immature risky move. Kind of like dumbledore except that in dumby's case it was aknowlaged

[Black Sabbath 2,486]

Still even if taking out Sombra was a good thing makimg it a test for Twilight was an immature risky move. Kind of like dumbledore except that in dumby's case it was aknowlaged

Yes, it's almost like Twilight had proven that she would be able to handle it by defeating other villains in the past.    

[ConcorDisparate 385]

 

 

Still even if taking out Sombra was a good thing makimg it a test for Twilight was an immature risky move. Kind of like dumbledore except that in dumby's case it was aknowlaged

 

Teaching through practice and a possible failure isn't immature. It was risky, but does that make her a corrupt princess ?

[Nnoitra 9]

Yes, it's almost like Twilight had proven that she would be able to handle it by defeating other villains in the past.

 

Yeah its not like she nearly failed and the only reason Sombra didn't regain the Empire was thanks to Spike kun imirite?

[Ashen Pathfinder 16,163]

@@Nnoitra

 

As we already have a thread concerning this idea and that your thread already had some contributions to it, I have merged it with a previous thread. In the future please remember to search for possible duplicates using either the forum search function of by using site:mlpforums.com + keyword on Google.

 

Thank you.

[MysticShine 529]

I don't really think she has malevolent motivations. Though she does use underhanded techniques to get Twilight to do the things she wants. 

[Dulset Tarn 441]

Obviously not malevolent, but she does have a sort of chessmaster mentality, always preferring to manipulate others. Especially with Twilight, Celestia's secret plans tend to treat her subjects as pawns and totally ignore their actual personhood. It's not surprising really, when your plans last hundreds of years I can't imagine I'd stay all that concerned with the day-to-day lives of the pawns involved.

[Bendy 1,821]

In my view Celestia is a paragon of good. Saying otherwise is heresy in my own opinion.

 

She didn't want to banish Luna, but she had no choice really. Clearly, the elements don't restore Nightmare Moon back to Luna if she's wielded them alone.

 

.... It sort of upsets me how Celestia is portrayed as evil by so many fans of this fandom. Everything from that false Celestia that goes around assimilating entire species into ponies and destroying their minds. I only like it with canon Celestia stops her counterpart for her wrong doing.

Edited February 20, 2015 by Rush

[Steel Accord 6,660]

Obviously not malevolent, but she does have a sort of chessmaster mentality, always preferring to manipulate others. Especially with Twilight, Celestia's secret plans tend to treat her subjects as pawns and totally ignore their actual personhood. It's not surprising really, when your plans last hundreds of years I can't imagine I'd stay all that concerned with the day-to-day lives of the pawns involved.

 

Sweet Celestia Herself, we actually agree! Yes, Celestia is a manipulator, She's been around so long that She can pull strings that other ponies don't even realize exist. Orchestrating events to achieve a good outcome.

 

My only difference is that I don't see Her machinations as a bad thing necessarily.

[Dulset Tarn 441]

Sweet Celestia Herself, we actually agree! Yes, Celestia is a manipulator, She's been around so long that She can pull strings that other ponies don't even realize exist. Orchestrating events to achieve a good outcome.

 

My only difference is that I don't see Her machinations as a bad thing necessarily.

Well of course, but that's a whole different argument. Celestia could mandate every aspect of everyone's lives herself and it could still be considered "good" because she'd be great at it. But that's where the dichotomy between freedom and expert opinion comes in.

[Steel Accord 6,660]

Well of course, but that's a whole different argument. Celestia could mandate every aspect of everyone's lives herself and it could still be considered "good" because she'd be great at it. But that's where the dichotomy between freedom and expert opinion comes in.

 

Again, I'm actually quite pleased that we're on the same page. 

 

At that point, it's just a matter of how much one actually trusts Celestia's character to not cross that line.

[TailsIsNotAlone 3,696]

I also say no. There's never been any indication that Celestia doesn't value Twilight and her friends or have everypony's best interests in mind. You can't fault her motives, at least not in any reasonable interpretation of canon.

 

Celestia's methods and results, though, are another story. it's equally important to remember that she's not infallible. She can be defeated and she can be wrong.

[Nnoitra 9]

I also say no. There's never been any indication that Celestia doesn't value Twilight and her friends or have everypony's best interests in mind. You can't fault her motives, at least not in any reasonable interpretation of canon.

 

Celestia's methods and results, though, are another story. it's equally important to remember that she's not infallible. She can be defeated and she can be wrong.

Actually there is a lot of proof that Celestia cares more about personal benefit than Everypony's Benefit.

For example In the S4 Finale she seemed ok with Everypony besides The Mane 6 getting there Magic stolen as long as they weren't alicorns.

[Ashen Pathfinder 16,163]

Actually there is a lot of proof that Celestia cares more about personal benefit than Everypony's Benefit.

For example In the S4 Finale she seemed ok with Everypony besides The Mane 6 getting there Magic stolen as long as they weren't alicorns.

 

That doesn't make a lot of sense though. When Tirek finally let himself be known AND when Discord betrayed them it was going to be too dangerous to confront him head on as such. Even if they did there would be no guarantees they would win. They could very well lose their alicorn powers and thereby make things worse for the populace.

[ManaMinori 4,146]

Sweet Celestia Herself, we actually agree! Yes, Celestia is a manipulator, She's been around so long that She can pull strings that other ponies don't even realize exist. Orchestrating events to achieve a good outcome.

 

My only difference is that I don't see Her machinations as a bad thing necessarily.

 

sounds very much like the IllumiNeighty, if you ask me. That said, Celestia might be MLP's version of that, ponyfied. (Her whole 'eye of Horus thing she's got going on, has always been a symbol of theirs, and has always disturbed me)

[Commissar Alexer 763]

Wait! Tyrantlestia is still a thing?

 

This fandom....

[ConcorDisparate 385]

For example In the S4 Finale she seemed ok with Everypony besides The Mane 6 getting there Magic stolen as long as they weren't alicorns.

 

That actually makes sense. You can't just tell everyone to go in the castle to give up on their magic(let's be honest, while the princesses were very aware of what's happening, that wasn't the case of everypony, and it would take too long to persuade everyone). Also, what would Tirek do ? Everypony's going in the same place at the same moment and, what a surprise, they lost their magic before he could drain it. Let's remember that he discovered Twilight because of bad luck, the plan Celestia made up was fine and made a lot of sense.

 

And let's be honest, it is not being selfish or caring more about her personal benefit here. We're not talking about a king leaving people to death while he makes sure he survives. Celestia and other princesses are alicorns, and to make sure their power won't be stolen isn't a selfish act, it's just a fact, the magic of alicorns is much more stronger than common ponies' magic, and for this reason, their power should be hidden first. A human being a king is not worth more than any other human and saving himself instead of others isn't an act for the benefit of everyone, but the alicorn's magic is worth more than common ponies' magic, and trying to save the alicorn magic in priority can be an act for the benefit of everyone. It isn't necessarily the case though.

But let's imagine the scene if the alicorns didn't have more power/magic than common ponies, alright ? Do you really think this would happen again ? Do you think Celestia would bother hiding this magic only because it's HER magic ? To me, this would obviously not be the case, but you can have your own opinion about it though.

 

You're just making stuff out of nowhere. You pick whatever moment of the show pleases you and you apply rules that apply to most of humans like 'if he does it, that's because he profits from it'. I'm okay with your opinion though, but you're trying to make proofs here. And that's why I tell you this : These are not proofs.

Edited February 25, 2015 by ConcorDisparate

[EquestriaGuy 1,074]

My headcanon is that Celestia is guiding the destinies of the mane 6 and CMC, so in the short term it seems like what she's doing is a cruelty, but in the long term it's going to be good for all involved. If she's withholding the CMC's cutiemarks, it really sucks for them, but ultimately it should payoff. She's also put the mane 6 through every level of hell, but again it could end up not only benefitting them personally, but Equestria as well.

[Dulset Tarn 441]

My headcanon is that Celestia is guiding the destinies of the mane 6 and CMC, so in the short term it seems like what she's doing is a cruelty, but in the long term it's going to be good for all involved. If she's withholding the CMC's cutiemarks, it really sucks for them, but ultimately it should payoff. She's also put the mane 6 through every level of hell, but again it could end up not only benefitting them personally, but Equestria as well.

That's called being a metaphysical dictator. You can argue that it's better for everyone, but it unquestionably negates the freedom freedom of all involved.

[Steel Accord 6,660]

That's called being a metaphysical dictator. You can argue that it's better for everyone, but it unquestionably negates the freedom freedom of all involved.

 

Does it? Just because destiny exists doesn't mean it invalidates choice. Especially since my personal interpretation is that destiny is more a destination rather than a set path.

 

If I'm trapped in a room and it's filling up with water, destiny is out of the room. However, whether I beat down a weak section of wall to the outside, hack the door controls to let me out, or float to the roof and bust open the hatch is my choice. However I reached my destiny is my choice and reflects more on me as a person than actually having achieved it. Especially since another option was failure and death, making my destiny less determinist and more a happy ending.

 

Celestia is playing a protracted, cosmic version of that. Hell, if it weren't for Her sending Twilight to Ponyville ostensibly to set up the Summer Sun Celebration, we wouldn't have the series in the first place.

 

She's not a dictator, metaphysical or otherwise, She's what Twilight perceives Her as, a teacher, a guide, one that certainly can't make the decisions for Her students but She can point them out and help them along. 

[Dulset Tarn 441]

Does it? Just because destiny exists doesn't mean it invalidates choice. Especially since my personal interpretation is that destiny is more a destination rather than a set path.

 

If I'm trapped in a room and it's filling up with water, destiny is out of the room. However, whether I beat down a weak section of wall to the outside, hack the door controls to let me out, or float to the roof and bust open the hatch is my choice. However I reached my destiny is my choice and reflects more on me as a person than actually having achieved it. Especially since another option was failure and death, making my destiny less determinist and more a happy ending.

 

Celestia is playing a protracted, cosmic version of that. Hell, if it weren't for Her sending Twilight to Ponyville ostensibly to set up the Summer Sun Celebration, we wouldn't have the series in the first place.

 

She's not a dictator, metaphysical or otherwise, She's what Twilight perceives Her as, a teacher, a guide, one that certainly can't make the decisions for Her students but She can point them out and help them along. 

Destiny itself already calls free will into question. When you have a person manipulating others' destinies to get a result they want, free will is all but gone.

[Pinkie-Guy 563]

Does it? Just because destiny exists doesn't mean it invalidates choice. Especially since my personal interpretation is that destiny is more a destination rather than a set path.

 

If I'm trapped in a room and it's filling up with water, destiny is out of the room. However, whether I beat down a weak section of wall to the outside, hack the door controls to let me out, or float to the roof and bust open the hatch is my choice. However I reached my destiny is my choice and reflects more on me as a person than actually having achieved it. Especially since another option was failure and death, making my destiny less determinist and more a happy ending.

 

Celestia is playing a protracted, cosmic version of that. Hell, if it weren't for Her sending Twilight to Ponyville ostensibly to set up the Summer Sun Celebration, we wouldn't have the series in the first place.

 

She's not a dictator, metaphysical or otherwise, She's what Twilight perceives Her as, a teacher, a guide, one that certainly can't make the decisions for Her students but She can point them out and help them along. 

 

 

It isn't a passive destiny.  It's being pushed along by Celestia in this scenario so maybe you decide choose the route of failure and drown in the house.  Celestia could blow a hole in the door herself to let the water out.  She could prevent you from choosing an outcome she doesn't like depend on how close to omnipotence and omniscience you make her.  Maybe it's not absolute, but there is less than completely free choice.  Your path may not be determined exactly, but it's bounded.

[Steel Accord 6,660]

It isn't a passive destiny.  It's being pushed along by Celestia in this scenario so maybe you decide choose the route of failure and drown in the house.  Celestia could blow a hole in the door herself to let the water out.  She could prevent you from choosing an outcome she doesn't like depend on how close to omnipotence and omniscience you make her.  Maybe it's not absolute, but there is less than completely free choice.  Your path may not be determined exactly, but it's bounded.

 

Considering Celestia's character, I would say that's a fair trade. Just as me surrendering some of my choice because I know my parents are wiser from having lived their life and made their own share of mistakes as well as successes.

 

The fact that She doesn't directly intervene, I think, shows more mercy and respect for freedom on Her part than anything else. If Celestia wanted to, She could make Equestria like Gen 3! No conflict, no monsters, no need to worry at all. Would the ponies be truly happy though? Is Eden, in a way, it's own Hell?

[Bendy 1,821]

Would the ponies be truly happy though? Is Eden, in a way, it's own Hell?

 

'Being God isn't easy. If you do too much, people get dependent on you. And if you do nothing, they lose hope. You have to use a light touch.' quote from something awesome.

 

I say that, if hypothetically Celestia is a god (I don't like referring to her as a god. Wouldn't mind really if she was a god, as long as she's a compassionate, kind and merciful, thus would never EVER commit xenocide on a sapient species. Also is nothing like her fanmade evil counterpart from TCB)

 

Quite frankly, if she fixed everything and made everything perfect the MLP FIM show would be boring as hell, due to there being no conflict. And the ponies would be stagnated as hell, because they would rely on her to fix everything. Plus, as shown in the show itself, Equestria is home to many beings that could potentially overthrow her is she's not careful.   

Edited February 26, 2015 by Bendy