Does Celestia have malevolent motivations?

[ManaMinori 4,144]

ok fine, given the supporting evidence people have provided for Celestia's case, I'll retract my initial thought on her being evil (for now). But I still stand by my conviction that she's been manipulating everypony, weaving lies, telling all these stories about wendigoes, altering ponies to become alicorns, setting up Twi and Cadance as specifically princess of Love, and the other friendship, for them to continue weaving celestia's plan, and everything else listed in the OP for the purpose of keeping everyone all friendshippy and using the vibes of love and harmony and friendship for sake of souping up the rainbow canon blasts that obliterate any threat

(and still, too, no one's addressed the issue of Celestia keeping the mirror portal right in the Canterlot throne room for easy access to other worlds, and the lines that the other ponies said and knew about the AU)*

 

see Op

[GreyScholar 1,584]

@@Nightmare Muffin,

I would suggest reading Twilight Sparkle and the Crystal Heart Spell as well as The Journal of the Two Sisters: The Official Chronicles of Princesses Celestia and Luna. By canon, most of what you believe has been clearly shown as false.

 

* Manipulating others, I may allow. Though only as a leader, political figure, parent, and mentor would manipulate for the benefit and growth of those she guides, directs, and protects.

* Putting aside the fact Celestia is not the Element of Honesty, Luna is, the mare still isn't a weaver of lies or some great deceiver. The history of Equestria as shown in the tv show and in the books offered by Hasbro are intended to be fact by the writers so the idea that Celestia is somehow altering and twisting history is bogus.

* Celestia had nothing to do with Cadance becoming an alicorn, not even knowing the pegasus until after she had become an alicorn and the princess had stumbled upon her in that astral plane Twilight found herself in. This, plus what is shown in the tv show, suggests very strongly that a pony can become an alicorn all on there own without influence from another alicorn and through such show that Celestia did not transform her student into an alicorn.

 

I'm sorry, but your wish to play Celestia as some master manipulator and puppet master is both foolish as well as reaching the levels of conspiracy theory crazy. She is not this sort of mare, there is too much that shuts down your idea completely as a door slamming in one's face.

Edited January 2, 2015 by EquestrianScholar

[Larkybird~ 734]

@@Nightmare Muffin,

I would suggest reading Twilight Sparkle and the Crystal Heart Spell as well as The Journal of the Two Sisters: The Official Chronicles of Princesses Celestia and Luna. By canon, most of what you believe has been clearly shown as false.

 

* Manipulating others, I may allow. Though only as a leader, political figure, parent, and mentor would manipulate for the benefit and growth of those she guides, directs, and protects.

* Putting aside the fact Celestia is not the Element of Honesty, Luna is, the mare still not a weaver of lies or some great deceiver. The history of Equestria as shown in the tv show and in the books offered by Hasbro are intended to be fact by the writers so the idea that Celestia is somehow altering and twisting history is bogus.

* Celestia had nothing to do with Cadance becoming an alicorn, not even knowing the pegasus until after she had become an alicorn and the princess had stumbled upon her in that astral plane Twilighht found herself. This plus what is shown in the tv show suggests very strong that a pony can become an alicorn all there own without influence from another alicorn and through such that Celestia did not transform her student into an alicorn.

 

I'm sorry, but your wish to plan Celestia as some master manipulator and puppet master is both foolish as well as reaching the levels of conspiracy theory crazy. She is not this sort of mare, there is too much that shuts down your idea completely as a door slamming in one's face.

Bravo kind sir or madam bravo.

[GreyScholar 1,584]

Bravo kind sir or madam bravo.

I am a sir and thank you very much.

[Commissar Alexer 763]

Poor Sunbutt...

 

Depicted often as rapist or tyrant, constantly shipped with her worst enemy and regarded by many of the fandom as pure evil...all this despite her true canonical appearance.

 

And all this because of what? Banishing Moonbutt to the moon in order to save the world? Headcanons? Or is it because she is white?

 

In all honesty, the hatred and twisted image of her in the fandom is really fucked up.

 

 

I just don't get those peolpe...

[ManaMinori 4,144]

Poor Sunbutt...

 

Depicted often as rapist or tyrant, constantly shipped with her worst enemy and regarded by many of the fandom as pure evil...all this despite her true canonical appearance.

 

And all this because of what? Banishing Moonbutt to the moon in order to save the world? Headcanons? Or is it because she is white?

 

In all honesty, the hatred and twisted image of her in the fandom is really fucked up.

 

 

I just don't get those peolpe...

I gave multiple reason as to why I saw her the way I did. I don't give a damn how others negatively depict her- racist, tyrant, whatever. I'm not on some sort of bandwagon or whatever you may think- these are MY conclusions that I've come to after watching her character and what stories she's set up with certain events, through the show. Perhaps you should go read the OP.

[catnet 9,353]

I gave multiple reason as to why I saw her the way I did. I don't give a damn how others negatively depict her- racist, tyrant, whatever. I'm not on some sort of bandwagon or whatever you may think- these are MY conclusions that I've come to after watching her character and what stories she's set up with certain events, through the show. Perhaps you should go read the OP.

Out of curiosity, since nopony's arguments on here seem to be making you hesitate on this view, what exactly would Celestia need to have done in her lifetime for you to believe that she isn't the evil mastermind you make her out to be? Instead of helping to maintain friendship and love in her kingdom, what could you possibly think would make her a better pony? What would you be expecting of her?

[Countess Noodle 607]

And all this because of what? Banishing Moonbutt to the moon in order to save the world? Headcanons? Or is it because she is white?

 

A lot of people can't quite grasp the idea that Luna was evil and the world needed saving. That and the fact that they seem to think they can live on a planet entirely cloaked in moonlight.

 

 

I gave multiple reason as to why I saw her the way I did. I don't give a damn how others negatively depict her- racist, tyrant, whatever. I'm not on some sort of bandwagon or whatever you may think- these are MY conclusions that I've come to after watching her character and what stories she's set up with certain events, through the show. Perhaps you should go read the OP.

 

Your "reasons" are illogical and multiple people have tried to show you why they are illogical, and time and time again you refuse to see....well, reason. The fact that you refuse to change your mind on anything despite the good arguments here makes me question why post this at all if you won't even attempt to understand. 

Edited January 4, 2015 by CausticNoodleBrony

[Steel Accord 6,658]

@@Nightmare Muffin, 

 

First of all, OP, that sounds more like an accusatory rant than an open ended question.

 

Second of all, no, not in the slightest.

 

Celestia's actions reflect only that of a teacher who has lived long enough to understand the correct amount of intervention and stimuli needed to spur her students to greatness.

 

Celestia saved Equestria thrice, a century ago. That last time was to a great personal sacrifice of herself and somepony she loved. If Poseidon sunk an island to the bottom of the sea to claim the mountain peak that sat atop it, Zeus would be pissed at him. Not because of the mortal lives that were lost, but because the cloudy summits belong to Zeus. Celestia did not take action against Luna because she thought the day was better, she did it so that Equestria wouldn't suffer the fate it barely averted at it's founding, a dark, icy death.

 

Celestia knew Twilight was destined for greatness, and saw similar in her friends. Is Obi-wan evil for accepting his death and leaving Luke to face the Empire and the Sith? Not a rhetorical question; no he isn't! Obi-wan saw in Luke, the potential to be a great hero, to take up the mantle of guardian, and to succeed where he failed.

 

The same could almost be said of Celestia in the pilot. The mentor gives the hero the information and tools they need, allows themselves to be indisposed by their fallen comrade, the hero adapts to operating without the mentor, and triumphs over evil.

 

Celestia has shown nothing but faith, patience, and compassion. Twisting action or inaction to suit the profile of evil is the cynical fabrication of those who can't fathom an authority figure who is as benevolent as they are powerful.

 

 

Were I a citizen of Equestria, I would tell you the same.

[ManaMinori 4,144]

Out of curiosity, since nopony's arguments on here seem to be making you hesitate on this view, what exactly would Celestia need to have done in her lifetime for you to believe that she isn't the evil mastermind you make her out to be? Instead of helping to maintain friendship and love in her kingdom, what could you possibly think would make her a better pony? What would you be expecting of her?

it's NOT the fact that she helps maintain friendship and love through the country. It's how it all seems like some big, elaborate scheme that she has to maintain, with all the stories of historical events made to keep ponies scared straight, to get the good friendshippy vibes maintained amongst all the populace, and using the pony she made alicorns- Cadance and Twilight, to basically either go on pilgrimages to preach the good news of friendship and harmony, and the other to basically mind control ponies (as seen in the Crystal Empire ep.) to love each other, even in the middle of heated arguments. As if none of these ponies can find love and friendship on their own, without interference of alicorns controlling them. Worse (and again, this goes  back to the line that Luna said, about the EoH) it all seems that Celestia's DOING all of this for the purpose of using the love and harmony she's basically force-feeding her subjects to power the defensive weapon- the elements of harmony. That's what makes me think of her the evil mastermind people can't seem to see her for.

 

Had she been using other tactics, I dunno, like relying on something other than the sole defensive weapon (like allowing ponies to genuinely make friends and try reforming them (like Flutters did with Discord), without use of the supermassive rainbow shooter of harmony that needs the love and friendship energy of the masses to power it) then, maybe I could see her as something different. But for now- and since the beginning- it feels like she's just using the energy she's got her alicornized apostles radiating into her pony subjects to power up weapons that would be effective against enemies. Sure seems pretty shady, to me.....

[catnet 9,353]

... okay, before I even make any further replies, could somepony please explain to me what exactly this 'supermassive rainbow shooter of harmony' is? I personally haven't finished the first season (though I've seen pieces of later episodes) and I legitimately don't get what this is. Is it simply the rainbow beam from the combined forces of the Elements of Harmony? Because I'm under the impression 'harmony' is meant to suggest good will and peacebringing; not exactly something that could be manipulated as a force for evil... Besides, it isn't powered so much by the masses, but by the ponies that weild it (at least, that's what I understand of it... )- if Celestia was truly evil, then I don't get how she could have been able to use the Elements of Harmony to imprison Luna, or at all for that matter.  Though this may just be lack of information on my part...

[GreyScholar 1,584]

@@Nightmare Muffin,
A huge flaw with your idea is that Celestia did not have access to the Elements of Harmony for a 1000 years, more that this 'superweapon' is not at all effected by the friendship and love of the whole nation... but that of the bond of friendship by those that wield the Elements. Equestria could became a place of fear, hatred, and violence yet the Elements of Harmony would still work as long the bearers hold strong to their bond of friendship to stay united.

 

This insane plan that would require such high level manipulation and control is pointless as it as no bearing on this 'superweapon' and it's also unwieldy since it gave the princess only a year to make use of it since the Mane Six aquired them. This is made even more laughable since at this point Celestia no longer has access to the Elements of Harmony and she knew nothing about the box that appeared on Twilight returning the Elements back to the Tree of Harmony.

 

There is just so many holes in this idea it's not even funny.

Edited January 4, 2015 by EquestrianScholar

[SilverStarApple 849]

Oh, for the love of...

 

Princess Celestia is an intelligent and manipulative Autocrat who can play the entire world like it's a Pokemon game, adding more members to the Princess Council so that Luna will be outvoted if anyone disagrees, turning her best and brightest student into A ONE-PONY ARMY THAT COULD RIVAL A SAIYAN, (Probably not a Super Saiyan 3/4, but a regular Saiyan? Most likely.), and generally do all she can to ensure that she remains in power so that she can keep things running smoothly in the perfect and idyllic world of Equestria.

 

AND SHE'S GOOD AT IT.

 

As far as we're aware, she's never done anything worse than trolling her subjects, and even that is just for fun. She's created a great world, and she needs to stay in power so she can keep that world running smoothly.

 

Honestly, if I was my OC, and I was in Equestria? I'd help out Princess Celestia. Unless things went into Game of Thrones-land and war began, then I'd become Twilight's Ally and Second-In-command/Top General, possibly alongside Rainbow Dash, (Or we'd get separate divisions of the army force, that could also work), and I'd do all in my power to ensure that Twilight becomes the new ruler of all, and things stay as good as they are despite the new ones in charge.

[ManaMinori 4,144]

... okay, before I even make any further replies, could somepony please explain to me what exactly this 'supermassive rainbow shooter of harmony' is? I personally haven't finished the first season (though I've seen pieces of later episodes) and I legitimately don't get what this is. Is it simply the rainbow beam from the combined forces of the Elements of Harmony? Because I'm under the impression 'harmony' is meant to suggest good will and peacebringing; not exactly something that could be manipulated as a force for evil... Besides, it isn't powered so much by the masses, but by the ponies that weild it (at least, that's what I understand of it... )- if Celestia was truly evil, then I don't get how she could have been able to use the Elements of Harmony to imprison Luna, or at all for that matter.  Though this may just be lack of information on my part...

yes, it's the rainbows that the mane 6 (or Celestia) shoot out at any major bad guy that moves. (Discord, Tirek, Sombra, Nightmare Moon) whatever you wanna call iwhatever it is that shoots out of the EoH or the harnessed friendship of the 6- it's THAT.

 

I'm just trying to get at- what Celestia does and how she does it doesn't feel genuine; everything without intervention, without natural effort / will of the ponies that she presides over.

[Dark Horse 12,815]

Celestia's a little mischief at times, but considering the ponies she has to deal with on a regular basis, can you really blame her for wanting to take a poke at them on occasion? Not to mention she's basically got the weight of an entire land on her shoulders most times, and even with a place as peaceful as Equestria, I'd imagine she still has to deal with a lot of crap. If a small community like Ponyville can find itself in all sorts of trouble on a regular enough basis, just imagine what some of the larger cities like Manehattan would be like to deal with. So yeah, I think she's entitled to a bit of snarky behavior at times.

 

But the whole conspiracy gambit mastermind gimmick I'm not buying. She's been shown as having no less then absolute faith in Twilight and her friends, and she constantly encourages them to solve their problems on their own with minimal assistance from her, even though she's a very powerful ally, but she knows it will ultimately make them stronger. And in fairness they manage very well without her. They wouldn't learn anything if she was just always on hand to clean up the messes. Take that in contrast to example Gandalf from LotR or Dumbledore from Harry Potter. They may have had good intentions, but both of them pretty clearly manipulated the events of their stories in order to ensure the protagonist(s) would have an ace up their sleeve or just be more prepared for the coming challenges because they obviously fear for their success, not that they ever tell them this, and a couple of them even backfire. Dumbledore especially basically gambled Harry's life when he had him "die" against Voldemort, he only assumed that Harry would survive and just happened to be right. That's a chessmaster gambit right there. Celestia never once has doubts about Twilights ability to get the job done, and if the end of "Magical Mystery Cure" says anything, she fully expected her success. Sorry, but it just sounds like paranoia. i've really seen nothing to suggest she has any malevolent motivations or ulterior motives to what she does. You can come up with a hundred different conspiracies for her, but honestly I think your looking way too deep if you do and I doubt you'd find something that could hold tangible weight. Best to just let it go.

[Vendi 407]

you'd think this would be more obvious.

Edited January 4, 2015 by Vendi

[ManaMinori 4,144]

also to be noted: in “It's about time”, the letter than Celestia sends to Twilight turns out to be a dog flyer; to which Spike replies: "What's the big deal? It's just a dog flier. I guess the princess hasn't heard we found Cerberus yet."

 

If Celestia is sending out flyers for a lost dog, that Spike stated, is clearly Cerberus- then most certainly, as the guardian of the gates of Tartarus itself IS Celestia's dog, then that has to heavily imply something about this pony.......

[GreyScholar 1,584]

@@Nightmare Muffin,

I'm calling BS on this, where in It's About Time does a dog flyer come up and if so when? Before or after Cerberus makes an appearance? More you are drawing a number of conclusions I am certain were not even hinted or suggested in that episode.

 

Also stop, you're being foalish. Time and again people have called you out of your bias and baseless accusations yet each time you blush it off or ignore it.

[RainbowTashie 378]

my favourite celestia mlp ccg card.

[Nnoitra 9]

Anyway Am I the only one who finds Celestia corrupt?
As in she abuses her power, Here are some of tbe powet abuse that I am talking about:

1. Taking out a Ruler(King Sombra) and replacing him with a Puppet goverment(Cadence) , and she didn't do it becahse Sombra was a tyrant, She did it for the power that the Crystal Heart has, Basicly she is stealing the Natural Resources of The Crystal Empire. Hey doesn't that remind anyone of a certain US President?

2. Risking too much to Test Twilight, At most she comes off as a sicopath who is willing to risk the lives of Many just to test Twilight, She is only lucky Twilight diesn't fail otherwise all of the deaths would be HER fault.

3. Double standards Aka letting Luna and Discord and Twilight get away with commiting crimes just because she cares about them.

Basicly Celestia is a corrupt politician and deserves to be kicked out of throne .

Edited February 20, 2015 by Jeric
content edit

[ConcorDisparate 385]

I think you're trying too hard to prove something that does not need to be proved.

Why would you try to make Celestia act like a human being while she is a pony from a universe where everything is so different ?

 

In Equestria, some ponies are obviously mean while some others are obviously good. Celestia was meant to be good, and there's no potilical crap to talk about, she's a princess and that was her destiny, and I'm pretty sure she would give up on this if she wasn't playing such an important role that only her and her sister were meant to play.

 

Don't compare humans to anything from the show, humans are corrupt, mean, violent, good, kind,... But in their universe, there's no magic, and they don't live the same way, they live to survive, to improve. Ponies live a different way. They have magic, and the source of the evil isn't in every one of them, it's magic. Someone must hold it and someone will have to play the evil role(cf comics, the one about Celestia and the parallel universe of Equestria), leading to an eternal fight between Good and Evil. They don't fight to survive or to earn more money(some do, but they were meant to be like that : cutiemark).

 

Humans grew egocentric because their world is like that : death is omnipresent, the species must survive, they are still in evolving societies, everyone doesn't profit from it, everyone defends his own values(don't get me wrong, that does not mean nobody can quit this state and defend values like having friends(for good reasons, not to profit from it) or help a defenseless one or spread love).

 

Ponies live with magic and they defend different values. Even if, for the show purposes, some of them seem corrupt, mean, or anything like that(diamond tiara, his father,...), in the end, the ones that are conscious of the magic among them (knowing the true meaning of a cutiemark, not practicing magic only to be showy about it, for instance) will rather help friends than defend their own house from being destroyed.

Celestia is bound with magic, she knows she will live longer than other ponies, she knows she is considered like a queen, but she is not corrupt. Because she doesn't hide in an ivory tower, because she knows there is much more than earning money and profiting from anything and anyone in her world. She has to defend her kind, she has to fight the evil, she has to spread magic and prepare future princesses to rule and take her role if this is needed. Fighting the evil is more important than profiting from being a princess.

In our world, fighting the evil isn't our primary goal. If a choice was to be made, we would defend our own life instead of fighting it.

In their world, death doesn't matter, it's something that happen, but nobody really cares, their primary goal is different than profit and surviving. Because they're no humans.

 

There's nothing to compare between ponies from MLP and humans.

 

I recommend you to read the comics I talked about earlier, I don't want to spoil the end, but what Celestia chooses to do makes your whole argument invalid.

Edited February 20, 2015 by ConcorDisparate

[NavelColt 22,876]

You're building a case out of your own assumptions upon some kind of hidden agenda behind Celestia's motives and personality, and like what's been said above, I think you're trying a bit too hard to make Celestia out to be some kind of tyrant herself. We get it, rulers that are so perfect that they seem 'too perfect' must not be perfect. But that doesn't (have to) apply to a world of magical talking horses who sport tramp stamps on their butts. 

 

Sombra was a tyrannical asshat who would have not only poisoned the Crystal Empire and thus ruin the rest of Equestria along with it, but would very likely have spread his dark reign over the rest of Equestria if he was given the chance. Tyrants tend to never be satisfied with however much power they have. Celestia was being tactical and preemptive by striking him down before he got too powerful. Smarter than most idiots who end up brandishing the hero flag, honestly. Let the bad guy become neigh-invincible, then take notice and make action.

 

Also, grammar bro, it's a thing! 

[cuteycindyhoney 13,284]

1. Taking out a Ruler(King Sombra) and replacing him with a Puppet goverment(Cadence) , and she didn't do it becahse Sombra was a tyrant, She did it for the power that the Crystal Heart has, Basicly she is stealing the Natural Resources of The Crystal Empire. Hey doesn't that remind anyone of a certain US President?

So she should have just let thousands of ponies be re-enslaved so they could get back to their lives of horror and desperation? I don't agree with your other points either, but this one just stood out to me. How is Celestia stealing anything from the Crystal Empire? The Crystal Heart is right where it's supposed to be. She didn't take it away and install it in Canterlot. 

[Nnoitra 9]

You're building a case out of your own assumptions upon some kind of hidden agenda behind Celestia's motives and personality, and like what's been said above, I think you're trying a bit too hard to make Celestia out to be some kind of tyrant herself. We get it, rulers that are so perfect that they seem 'too perfect' must not be perfect. But that doesn't (have to) apply to a world of magical talking horses who sport tramp stamps on their butts. 

 

Sombra was a tyrannical asshat who would have not only poisoned the Crystal Empire and thus ruin the rest of Equestria along with it, but would very likely have spread his dark reign over the rest of Equestria if he was given the chance. Tyrants tend to never be satisfied with however much power they have. Celestia was being tactical and preemptive by striking him down before he got too powerful. Smarter than most idiots who end up brandishing the hero flag, honestly. Let the bad guy become neigh-invincible, then take notice and make action.

 

Also, grammar bro, it's a thing! 

Yes because taking out tyrants ends up working so well in real Life

[cuteycindyhoney 13,284]

Sombra was a tyrannical asshat

This..^

 

That statement sums it up nicely!