If Celestia doesn't appear in the upcoming Season 5 premiere....

[Dulset Tarn 441]

This might be presumptuous and I don't have anything to back it up, but personally I think the problem is that Celestia might be thought of by the writers as "Lauren Faust's character". She's mysterious and wise, the kind of character you don't want to mess up. Luna took a while to become a character, but Celestia's been a relatively big role since season 1. That's how I explain Cadence taking Celestia's role as Twilight's mentor and confidante. As someone who was added in with next to no established character, it's simply that much easier for McCarthy and the writers to work with Cadence than it is to give Celestia a role. It may be a simplistic theory, but I just know that if I were writing for the show, writing for Lauren's Celestia would be much more daunting than anyone else.

[ShadOBabe 18,997]

I'd also like to give one more interpretation of mine to this discussion.

Celestia's (and Cadence and Luna's) plan in Twilight's Kingdom was not a "do this and everything will be fine" plan.
It was a "do this and MAYBE we'll prolong the worst long enough for SOME ponies to get away in time" plan.

Mr. Enter described it pretty well.
Celestia and Luna could only defeat Discord with the Elements.
Those are no longer available. Celestia figured that Discord would just break free again one day, so we might as well try to reform him before that happens and while we still have the only thing that can beat him. And it looked like it worked. After all, Discord could have rebelled the moment the Elements were gone, but he didn't because he would have lost the only companions he'd ever had.

So instead of putting Twilight at risk against Tirek, she sent Discord, who could sense magical disturbances and teleport there instantly.
But Discord is more of a sucker than she realized, and he turned against them. That's my main problem, that Mr. Silver Tongue himself was written to be so swayed by flattery, and from another villain no less.

But regardless, Discord got suckered by the centaur demon. Celestia and Luna couldn't take on Discord without the Elements. They're gone, and now he's backed up by Tirek. No offense to Cadence, but she wasn't going to sway the tide in their favor. So it was sit and wait for Tirek to come take their magic, or give it to Twilight and tell her to hide it, and hope that she'd get away before Discord told him.

So Celestia forgot the stained glass window. As I pointed out, so did everyone else apparently.
Even Twilight forgot her own window.

Twilight: *as she's leaving* I'll take good care of your magic. Oh, and make sure to get rid of my window!

Celestia: Oh, fudge, I'm glad you said something Twilight! With me being in this throne room every single day for the last several millennia I sometimes forget they're even there.

Luna: Not to mention our minds are on the monster eating all our subjects' magic.

Heck even Shining could have said something!!

Shining: Hey sweetheart, I know you all have a lot on your plates right now, so I just wanted to remind you to tell Aunt Celestia to take down Twily's window.

Cadence: Oh my gosh, that completely slipped my mind!! Thank you hun!!

Edited February 14, 2015 by ShadOBabe

[Cleverclover 1,526]

 

 

This assumes that the show is ONLY about Twilight. Which it isn't.

 

From the very beginning of the show, Celestia's role in FiM was established as Twilight's mentor/teacher. In season 2, this extended to the mane five as well, and they began sending her their own friendship lessons. But since Twilight has become an alicorn, that has obviously changed. Twilight is clearly in no further need of a mentor because she rarely makes mistakes now, and she has her friends to rely on whenever she finds herself in doubt. She is in no further need of any guidance from Celestia, and with her no longer sending Celestia friendship letters, the mane five are under no obligation to do so either. That's why the journal was introduced as a replacement for them. 

 

So with Twilight in no further need for any more mentoring from Celestia, the writers have ultimately failed to give her another role. Thus, as of now, she has no role. She ultimately has very little reason to make any more appearances in the show. As a character, she's useless. 

 

Celestia being an important pony to Twilight has absolutely nothing to do with it. If Celestia does not make any kind of appearance in the season 5 premiere, it will be proof that Twilight truly does not need her anymore, and that she is perfectly capable of running her "kingdom" (whatever that entails) on her own. 

 

Hell, you want even more proof? Rainbow Rocks. Did Twilight need any approval or support from Celestia to rig and use the portal again? Nope. Did she need Celestia to inform her about the existence of Sirens? Nope, Twilight was already well-informed about Sirens. Was Celestia needed to keep the mane five out of the portal again? Nope, Twilight even took care of that herself. 

 

Anything that Celestia once provided Twilight, Twilight is now perfectly capable of providing for herself. That's what I mean by saying that Celestia is useless to the show since she's useless to Twilight. 

 

 

 

Well you hear her voice in the preview at least so she's probably in it.

 

 

Actually, I thought that her dialogue there was pulled from Twilight's Kingdom. Then again, I wouldn't know for sure since I haven't watched that garbage finale more than twice. 

[Silver Letter 1,832]

Unfortunately, it does make sense. It is as though Princess Celestia was written out of the show. She does not seem to be any kind of significant character anymore and I probably will not expect that to change in the future. We missed out because Celestia could have been a grand character with many great moments in the show.

[ShadOBabe 18,997]

So with Twilight in no further need for any more mentoring from Celestia, the writers have ultimately failed to give her another role. Thus, as of now, she has no role.

 

Her role is the raise the sun and rule Equestria.

I'm not sure why that's a problem. Like I said, there are other characters that have never and will never provide anything to Twilight, but that doesn't make them useless or bar them from having roles later. Yeah Twilight's a big girl and can take care of herself now. So what? I don't really get your problem with this.

 

Celestia raised her up to be able to rule. Now she can, and Celestia can go back to her politics and logicstics.

Your complaints don't really make sense. She can pop up and do something else in some other story. I mean if you see her as useless, then what about all these other characters? Twilight doesn't need Luna's help. Does that make her useless? Or will Luna be useless once she's aided Applebloom in a dream like she has with the other two (IF she does)? I just don't get your problem here.

 

I don't think I've ever deemed any character as useless in any series in my entire life.

But the only reason I would is if they have no potential to be used in stories. Celestia certainly doesn't fit that description and neither do most of the other side characters. But then again, I love Derpy Hooves and other background characters, who have zero pertinence to the show's story as a whole and never really will. But I'll disagree with anyone that thinks they should just vanish.

 

EDIT: This makes me think of this one person one DeviantArt whose comics I read.

They straight up admitted once that they basically kill off anyone that isn't necessary to the story anymore. I think that's dumb. Just because your role in someone's life diminishes or ends doesn't mean you just die or disappear as a result. You just go on with your own life.

 

Also I don't watch anything related to Equestria Girls, so that reference means squat to me.

Edited February 14, 2015 by ShadOBabe

[Dulset Tarn 441]

She is in no further need of any guidance from Celestia

That's kinda not even remotely true, which is entirely a strike against the show, not you.

I mean, Twilight became a princess but has no idea what she's doing as one. Surely she'd need some guidance from her lifelong princess mentor, right??

[Conred 274]

Meghan doesn't like to write Celestia as much as she like Discord. Larson will probably write one episode with Celestia hanging out with Luna and Cadance. But that will mostly be it.

[ShadOBabe 18,997]

Meghan doesn't like to write Celestia as much as she like Discord. Larson will probably write one episode with Celestia hanging out with Luna and Cadance. But that will mostly be it.

I'd watch the Tartarus out of it.

I'm a radiator of Princess love. Of ponies in general actually.

 

I find the enjoyment a lot of people in this fandom get from wallowing in negativity and hatred a tad bit disturbing. I'm all for critique (I've got just about every major MLP analysis on YouTube I'm my watch list), but it seems to be turning into more and more of a hatebox (the scowlier version of a hugbox). Not this thread specifically, it's just something I've noticed becoming more and more prevalent.

 

But now I'm just opining.

Edited February 14, 2015 by ShadOBabe

[smitty121325 64]

I have to agree. To be fair, Celestia didn't make that many appearances in the first season. But my problem with her is that anytime there's a problem, she doesn't really do anything to solve. At least she tried in "A Canterlot Wedding," even though she got her flank handed to her. Talk about disappointing.

[ShadOBabe 18,997]

I have to agree. To be fair, Celestia didn't make that many appearances in the first season. But my problem with her is that anytime there's a problem, she doesn't really do anything to solve. At least she tried in "A Canterlot Wedding," even though she got her flank handed to her. Talk about disappointing.

Well the thing is that Twilight and the Mane Six are the stars of the show.

Celestia is not allowed to do all the work for meta reasons because then she'd become a fix button. There was the time in Lesson Zero where Spike let her know that Twilight was freaking out, and when she showed up she instantly reversed the Want It, Need It spell. She apparently had to go fix an "infestation" in the Parasprite episode. She motivates a broken Twilight with her old friendship letters in Return of Harmony. And while she was beaten by a Chrysalis buffed up by love draining, I don't see people criticizing Luna for apparently sleeping through the whole thing. XD

 

Though really, I'm in the camp though that Celestia let Twilight handle a lot of problems herself in order to advance her closer towards alicorn ascension.

 

But I do want the writers to do more with her, especially in the action department.

Here's how I would handle it if I was in charge:

 

As always, Twilight and the rest of the Mane Six have to be the ones to beat the big bad.

I have it so that they are the ONLY ones that can and there's a ticking clock factor. BUT the big bad has "mini bosses" that get in their way to stall them!! Dun dun dun!!

But then suddenly, Celestia and Luna bust in and kick ASS while the girls run for the big bad.

 

Boom, there you go. Hasbro is happy because the Mane Six are the main heroes, and the Royal Sisters get to show how awesome they are without being the "fix everything" plot convenience. Get on it DHX. Don't be afraid to show that the motherly character will roast flank if you try and hurt her "kids". I know my mom would.

Edited February 15, 2015 by ShadOBabe

[Dulset Tarn 441]

I find the enjoyment a lot of people in this fandom get from wallowing in negativity and hatred a tad bit disturbing. I'm all for critique (I've got just about every major MLP analysis on YouTube I'm my watch list), but it seems to be turning into more and more of a hatebox (the scowlier version of a hugbox).

Personally the only hateboxing I've seen is against anyone who doesn't think the show is as amazing as it used to be. Just saying that here is likely to attract rabid hate.

[smitty121325 64]

Well the thing is that Twilight and the Mane Six are the stars of the show.Celestia is not allowed to do all the work for meta reasons because then she'd become a fix button. There was the time in Lesson Zero where Spike let her know that Twilight was freaking out, and when she showed up she instantly reversed the Want It, Need It spell. She apparently had to go fix an "infestation" in the Parasprite episode. She motivates a broken Twilight with her old friendship letters in Return of Harmony. And while she was beaten by a Chrysalis buffed up by love draining, I don't see people criticizing Luna for apparently sleeping through the whole thing. XDThough really, I'm in the camp though that Celestia let Twilight handle a lot of problems herself in order to advance her closer towards alicorn ascension.But I do want the writers to do more with her, especially in the action department.Here's how I would handle it if I was in charge:As always, Twilight and the rest of the Mane Six have to be the ones to beat the big bad.I have it so that they are the ONLY ones that can and there's a ticking clock factor. BUT the big bad has "mini bosses" that get in their way to stall them!! Dun dun dun!!But then suddenly, Celestia and Luna bust in and kick ASS while the girls run for the big bad.Boom, there you go. Hasbro is happy because the Mane Six are the main heroes, and the Royal Sisters get to show how awesome they are without being the "fix everything" plot convenience. Get on it DHX. Don't be afraid to show that the motherly character will roast flank if you try and hurt her "kids". I know my mom would.

I understand the reasoning, but you'd think that as the ruler of Equestria, she'd take a more active role in defending it. Regarding Luna at the end of "A Canterlot Wedding", many people thought her cameo screamed "they wasted a perfectly good character." (It's hinted that Discord is more powerful than the Princesses.) Speaking of Luna, it's reported that she will get an episode where she has a nightmare. This will be her second solo episode since season two's "Luna Eclipsed." I'm hoping this season, we will get more info on the Princesses.

[ShadOBabe 18,997]

I understand the reasoning, but you'd think that as the ruler of Equestria, she'd take a more active role in defending it. Regarding Luna at the end of "A Canterlot Wedding", many people thought her cameo screamed "they wasted a perfectly good character." (It's hinted that Discord is more powerful than the Princesses.) Speaking of Luna, it's reported that she will get an episode where she has a nightmare. This will be her second solo episode since season two's "Luna Eclipsed." I'm hoping this season, we will get more info on the Princesses.

Oh it's not just hinted. It's pretty much confirmed that without the Elements, Discord is unstoppable.

I wrote a big ole bit here in this thread about that fact.

 

As for her being active, whose to say that's not what she does off screen?

I wish they would do it ON SCREEN, but as I've said, she's not a main character and all the adventuring is left up to the stars of the show, the Mane Six. It's hinted in the comics that when Luna isn't doing the dream hopping thing, she out fighting monsters that strike terror in the night with her Night Guard. Celestia likely takes on some threats in the day time, but the daylight is also when all the meetings, and hearings, and breifings, and delegates and all that boring but necessary political crap has to take place. So you have to delegate some stuff. That's why you have an army in the first place (also Luna was shown to kind of suck at the politicking stuff in the same comic I mentioned).

 

But even if she's not FIGHTING, I'd just love an episode where we just get to see more of Celestia period.

 

Personally the only hateboxing I've seen is against anyone who doesn't think the show is as amazing as it used to be. Just saying that here is likely to attract rabid hate.

I'll admit, I personally think it's just getting better and better.

I'm certainly being more entertained with each passing season. When I first started watching I was just very casual about it. Like, "D'aww, this is cute." Now I'm all like, "WHOOO!! This is awesome!! XD" (though there's plenty of things I had problems with for a bit... Looking at you season 3...)

 

But I'm cool if people think the opposite. Thing is I've never run into anyone that just says, "I liked earlier seasons more."

It seems like people are getting more enjoyment out of ripping the frachise apart than out of actually watching it. And I think that's kind of a problem. Not even level headed analysis, just bitter vitriol. Aren't we supposed to be having fun with this show? If it makes you miserable, why do you continue to stick around? Unless, as I said, you stick around because you're having fun bashing it.

 

If I hated something that much, I'd just dump it and leave. I've done it with other fandoms.

 

(Disclaimer: "You" does not mean you specifically, just the hypothetical miserable person that doesn't enjoy the show anymore, but continues to stick around anyway.)

Edited February 15, 2015 by ShadOBabe

[Ashen Pathfinder 16,161]

To me, saying that Celestia is or will be useless is a tad-harsh. Even if she isn't utilized during the season all that much, it's difficult for me to believe that she's essentially a non-factor; especially that she actually has potential to be used as a guide/mentor at the least.

 

Compare that with...say the Flim Flam Brothers whose main schtick has already been uncovered twice, and it's even harder to see them returning outside of something involving out-of-the-box thinking.

 

So yeah; I'm skeptical of the Celestia is/will be useless argument.

[Dulset Tarn 441]

Even if she isn't utilized during the season all that much, it's difficult for me to believe that she's essentially a non-factor

But that's exactly what she was during the entirety of season 4, isn't it?

[Ashen Pathfinder 16,161]

But that's exactly what she was during the entirety of season 4, isn't it?

 

 

Non-factor depends on how one perceives the chain of events. Yeah, Celestia didn't do much in the S4 premier and her decision-making left questionable results in the finale, but the events were somewhat driven by her; whether unintentional or not.

 

1. Being kidnapped led to the discovery of the Tree of Harmony by the Mane 6.

 

2. Celestia trusted Discord to capture Tirek; but didn't take into account Tirek's silver tongue. This would lead to Discord's betrayal, who in turn would be betrayed, which would lead to Twilight getting her key (which itself was given to Tirek by Scorpan).

 

I'm not saying everything she did was gold, but she was a factor.

[Cleverclover 1,526]

 

 

Her role is the raise the sun and rule Equestria.

 

That's just the role she has within the show's universe. It doesn't warrant her making actual appearances.

 

 

 

Twilight doesn't need Luna's help. Does that make her useless?

 

Luna was never Twilight's mentor, was she? Celestia was, and that's why she's useless now that Twilight no longer needs her. Unless the writers give her another role that relates directly to Twilight/the mane six, she basically has no reason to appear anymore. 

 

As for her potential to be used in future stories, I honestly don't believe the she has any, especially since McCarthy seems to outright hate her now. 

 

Sorry, but that Celestia episode people want so much is more than likely never going to happen. 

 

 

 

Or will Luna be useless once she's aided Applebloom in a dream like she has with the other two (IF she does)?

 

Yes. As I said, Luna is pretty much in danger of becoming just as irrelevant to the show as Celestia is. 

 

 

 

Also I don't watch anything related to Equestria Girls, so that reference means squat to me.

 

That doesn't make my point any less relevant. While the first Equestria Girls film had heavy involvement from Celestia, Rainbow Rocks was written in such a way that she would not be involved in the slightest and that Twilight herself would function in every single way Celestia did in the first film, to include her telling the mane five to stay behind.

 

As a matter of fact, you can even tell just how blatantly obvious McCarthy's intent to keep her out of Rainbow Rocks was, because in the film, a message that was originally written to Celestia ended up being delivered to Twilight at that exact moment. Therefore, Celestia did not receive the message herself, removing any possibility she had for making an appearance. 

 

That's just a testament to how worthless she is now and how much Twilight no longer needs her. 

 

 

 

So if a character isn't needlessly shoehorned into an episode, they're automatically useless?

 

Considering that this particular character has appeared in every single premiere and finale to the point where her presence in them has pretty much been guaranteed, and considering that she basically has no reason to appear in any other episode throughout the season....yes, I would definitely say so. 

 

"Needlessly shoehorned." I love that choice of words. Sums up Celestia's relevance to the show perfectly. 

[ShadOBabe 18,997]

That's just a testament to how worthless she is now and how much Twilight no longer needs her.

 

Again so? It's not all about Twilight.

 

(I should know better than to reply though. I've made all my points. You believe that a character that is not needed RIGHT NOW will never be needed again. As someone already said to you, that's pretty shortsighted and I agree.)

Edited February 15, 2015 by ShadOBabe

[Steel Accord 6,660]

Completely disagree. She may not have the same purpose but that's not the same thing as having no purpose. Let's count the narrative roles that Celestia has served.

 

-Mentor

 

-Quest giver

 

-Precursor hero

 

-Deity

 

-Antagonist (albeit who's threat is imposed only by Twilight's paranoia.)

 

-World builder

 

That's a great deal of range for one character. Not to mention, her gradually passing the torch to Twilight was intentional from the start! Lauren originally wanted Twilight to actually succeed Celestia. That looks to be happening still, just slower and more indirectly. Then again, when you have eternity to plan these things out, why rush it?

 

Celestia is still needed for something rather crucial. You eat any bread based products lately? Or enjoy a nice warm bath or shower? Or not freeze to death? Yeah, you can thank the sun for that, of which, Celestia is the warden of. Yes, I know the unicorn tribe loophole. (I swear the writers threw that in for the sole purpose of screwing with their own mythology.) Celestia still performs the function that would take a number to do so and has been for over a thousand years. Just as she's been running the state of Equestria for that amount of time.

 

Sure, Celestia might not serve the direct purpose she once did, but that's intentional even on the character's part. An Equestria without Celestia though, would be like Star Wars without the Force, less magical and wondrous than it is and poorer for the absence.

[smitty121325 64]

Oh it's not just hinted. It's pretty much confirmed that without the Elements, Discord is unstoppable.I wrote a big ole bit here in this thread about that fact.As for her being active, whose to say that's not what she does off screen?I wish they would do it ON SCREEN, but as I've said, she's not a main character and all the adventuring is left up to the stars of the show, the Mane Six. It's hinted in the comics that when Luna isn't doing the dream hopping thing, she out fighting monsters that strike terror in the night with her Night Guard. Celestia likely takes on some threats in the day time, but the daylight is also when all the meetings, and hearings, and breifings, and delegates and all that boring but necessary political crap has to take place. So you have to delegate some stuff. That's why you have an army in the first place (also Luna was shown to kind of suck at the politicking stuff in the same comic I mentioned).But even if she's not FIGHTING, I'd just love an episode where we just get to see more of Celestia period.I'll admit, I personally think it's just getting better and better.I'm certainly being more entertained with each passing season. When I first started watching I was just very casual about it. Like, "D'aww, this is cute." Now I'm all like, "WHOOO!! This is awesome!! XD" (though there's plenty of things I had problems with for a bit... Looking at you season 3...)But I'm cool if people think the opposite. Thing is I've never run into anyone that just says, "I liked earlier seasons more."It seems like people are getting more enjoyment out of ripping the frachise apart than out of actually watching it. And I think that's kind of a problem. Not even level headed analysis, just bitter vitriol. Aren't we supposed to be having fun with this show? If it makes you miserable, why do you continue to stick around? Unless, as I said, you stick around because you're having fun bashing it.If I hated something that much, I'd just dump it and leave. I've done it with other fandoms.(Disclaimer: "You" does not mean you specifically, just the hypothetical miserable person that doesn't enjoy the show anymore, but continues to stick around anyway.)

I would like to see an episode centered on the Princess. The comics did it.

[cuteycindyhoney 13,307]

Why does everypony act as if Canterlot comes to a complete standstill if Twilight isn't actually involved with something? Twilight is growing, and doesn't need to lean on her mentor as much any more. That's actually a good thing. It doesn't mean Celestia has become useless. It means she now can devote all her time to ruling once again. She took a lot of time off so she could personally guide Twilight.

[Dulset Tarn 441]

Why does everypony act as if Canterlot comes to a complete standstill if Twilight isn't actually involved with something? Twilight is growing, and doesn't need to lean on her mentor as much any more. That's actually a good thing. It doesn't mean Celestia has become useless. It means she now can devote all her time to ruling once again. She took a lot of time off so she could personally guide Twilight.

I'm sorry, what the heck are you talking about?

[Justin_Case001 4,889]

She's useless to Twilight, and thus useless to the show. 

While I agree with a lot of your points, I dunno, I just find it harsh to put it this way.  I mean, if a person grows up, moves out, gets married, gets a stable job, and doesn't really need their parents anymore for any specific purpose, does that mean that their parents are useless?  If Twilight cares about Celestia, then she's not useless to Twilight, and if people like seeing Celestia, then she's not useless to the show.  Not every character in every show needs to have a vital role that drastically affects the story to be of use.

 

But I absolutely agree that her role has diminished.  She was barely in season 4.  I liked when she had more of a role and more screen time, like in A Bird in the Hoof.  She doesn't need to have the same role, but I would like to see her be brought back into the show more.  There's so much that they could do with her.  I'm still waiting for a Celestia spotlight episode, something that would make her truly dynamic and relatable.  Come one, Hasbro, do it already.

[Ashen Pathfinder 16,161]

Guys, let's keep this on track. I've had to hide a couple of posts that were generally off-topic.

 

We have an interesting conversation going; let's keep it like that in a civil manner as well.

[Starlighty 968]

Celesta is the whole reason why twilight sparkle is who she is today... She kinda a big deal... Even though Twilight a princess now she will always take what Celesta did for with her her whole life...

 

Celesta might not be needed in season 5 because she no longer a teacher but a friend now so it would be nice for her to be in a few episodes beside just because she not in the trailer doens't mean she not in the opening.