My Problem With G4 Tirek

[Dulset Tarn 441]

If he did that or pretty much anything else to the mane six, they would be defeated and the show would be over.

What exactly is your point? What are you trying to convey?

[yeet 2,027]

What exactly is your point? What are you trying to convey?

He is basically saying they had to make it kinda stupid with the rainbow power and stuff (and Tirek not doin anything else to the mane 6) because if he killed them, they wouldn't be able to make any more episodes, thus killing their own show. Unlike Game Of Thrones where the aim is to kill as many main characters as possible XD.

It was kinda cheesy but they did it anyway.

[ghostfacekiller39 23,879]

I didn't necessarily have a problem with him as a villain. I have a problem with the two parter he appeared in because it tried SO HARD to appeal to bronies that it reached IDW levels of fanservice. I still hate that fight scene with every inch of my body because it was so stupid, and I hate how it reduced to rest of the mane 6 to being completely and utterly useless in order to make Twilight shine. I know she's the main protagonist but I really hate how this show has a singular main protagonist, to be honest. It'd be so much better without that role, from my perspective.

 

But eh, I digress. Point being I didn't have an issue with Tirek and found him to actually be quite an effective villain for most of his appearances, but a lot of the things around him in that episode sucked.

[Silver Letter 1,832]

 

 

I have a problem with the two parter he appeared in because it tried SO HARD to appeal to bronies

People keep saying that. I want proof that Hasbro takes bronies into consideration in any way when it comes to show production, merchandise or commercialization.

[Cleverclover 1,526]

If he did that or pretty much anything else to the mane six, they would be defeated and the show would be over.

 

Exactly. The point is that McCarthy ended up writing herself into a hole that she could only get out of by making Tirek an idiot on the spot, and the mane six only got to keep their lives (or their freedom) because of it. 

 

People keep saying that. I want proof that Hasbro takes bronies into consideration in any way when it comes to show production, merchandise or commercialization.

 

Do you seriously think DHX had the original target demographic of 7-12 year old girls in mind when they animated that sequence? Seriously? 

[ghostfacekiller39 23,879]

People keep saying that. I want proof that Hasbro takes bronies into consideration in any way when it comes to show production, merchandise or commercialization.

There was a DBZ esque fight, brah. That pretty much toppled my interest in the episode completely over I'm not really under the impression that a 7 or 8 year old girl would be familiar with DBZ, and given that both DBZ and Bronydom are considered two big parts of nerd culture, I feel at the very least it's a safe bet that the gigantic omg 'splosions fight scene was trying to do just that

 

Furthermore, I'm relatively certain that I cannot count the number of times I've seen threads on these forums alone calling for the show to be "darker" or "more mature" on two hands alone I don't believe parents or the kiddies do that. Maybe some, but I'm relatively certain that it isn't the majority That's just a guesstimate, though, but a reasonable one, I would say.

 

Another good reason is that Bronies make up a large percentage of the show's television audience and merchandise sales. It'd be a foolish business move to totally ignore something that brings in so much money, and I don't think someone would get to make decisions for a company like Hasbro without having a substantial amount of knowledge on business ethics and practices. While earlier on it was just a few references and things happening in the background, bronydom grew larger and made them more money, as the vast majority of merchandise earns Hasbro a bit of dough. And I mean the VAST amount of it It just wouldn't be a good business move to ignore such a large source of income and I wouldn't be surprised if the fanservice got even less subtle as the series progressed. Not to say that'd ruin the entire show, mind you, because if they can combat it with strong writing and good character development then I'd still tune in every Saturday morning - subtlety never hurt anyone, however, and if the fanservice would start detracting from the story being told or the writing of the series in general than I feel an issue would arise. It hasn't done that yet, in my opinion, but that fight in Twilight's Kingdom certainly teetered on it. It felt like it had a huge neon sign saying "BRONIES THIS IS FOR YOU" parading across the screen during the entirity of that scene, and that was rather bothersome and really detracted from the rest of the story being told, albeit the rest of the story being told wasn't much to get excited over anyway, at least not to me

 

So, I don't have anything decisive or concrete, but I have several reasons for believing this to be the case and I find that the amount of circumstantial evidence pointing to the increased levels of fanservice as the show progresses having peaked (thus far) at Twilight's Kingdom to be logical enough for me to assert this as my opinion on the matter. Make what you will of that, and this is far from the decisive fact you asked for (and for that I apologize) but I think this is something to take into consideration when the fanservice claim is made Thank you for your time.

 

[#1FluttershyFan 206]

Tirek was never my favorite villain to begin with. I think he would have been cool is he remained as scary as he originally looks and as frail but built his army of followers who attack, while he hides in the shadows. Then makes a big reveal at the end and steals all the power at once. It would be more dramatic than him gaining power gradually.

[Silver Letter 1,832]

 

 

So, I don't have anything decisive or concrete, but I have several reasons for believing this to be the case and I find that the amount of circumstantial evidence pointing to the increased levels of fanservice as the show progresses having peaked (thus far) at Twilight's Kingdom to be logical enough for me to assert this as my opinion on the matter.

Thanks for a strong reply. I am not sure if it could even be determined as to what percentage the brony fandom consists of as to the viewership. I would guess 15-25%. Toy sales. Maybe 10%.

[TailsIsNotAlone 3,696]

I agree that Tirek was a lot more interesting in the first half of the finale. He had intelligently written lines with Discord and I was waiting for some elaboration on his brother and why he equated friendship with imprisonment. 

 

But as soon as he converted Discord and got more power, he just turned into this big mean thing with horns. He didn't act like a creature who had done however-many-years in Tartarus would act; he didn't even talk about it. And a lot of the stuff he did was sort of rushed, like the way he just barged into the throne room and tried to drain the alicorns, no introducing himself at all...or the way he was instantly sent back down to Tartarus upon his defeat.

 

 

But the thing that annoys me the absolute most is how could he have possibly not known that there was a fourth Alicorn Princess in Equestria? He had been around since It's About Time, all the way back in season two. He had a full season before Twilight's ascension to hear of the Mane Six and their exploits and a full season after her ascension to catch wind of a very public coronation. It's wholly unbelievable that spending all that time out of Tartarus that he would've never caught wind that there was another Princess, nor at least would have known of the Mane Six.

 

 I was thinking about that, too. Why wouldn't he know about a fourth alicorn? For that matter, why would he know there was a third one but not a fourth? Why not be consistent and have him either know a lot about present-day Equestria, or know almost nothing?

 

I'm guessing it's because they wanted a particular reason for the fate of Equestria to depend on Twilight alone and didn't think very hard about what it was going to be.

[Arctofire 227]

I understand what a lot of people have said about the episode being quite weak, and I will too say that the fight scene was pandering. However, Discord's arc was enough to make me love the episode, and the way it wrapped up season 4 with the medallion really worked for me.

 

As for Twilight being put above the rest JUST for that fight scene, yes, I can't deny that. Whilst I do agree with this, I have to say this is not the first time this has happened, The Crystal Empire did it worse because at least here they needed to be here for the rainbow power.

 

I hope this is just a season 4 thing that focuses on Twilight being a princess, because the trailer for season 5 looks to me like it's going to be all 6 of them together, and I think we all agree that is the best type of 2 parter. 

Edited February 25, 2015 by Arctofire

[Sobana 100]

People keep saying that. I want proof that Hasbro takes bronies into consideration in any way when it comes to show production, merchandise or commercialization.

Latest reports suggest that bronies make up nearly half of the viewing audience. In Hasbro's presentation to it's shareholders it said it would expand the franchise to include the adult fans.

 

The Tirek fight just might of been for the bronies after all.

[Dulset Tarn 441]

He didn't act like a creature who had done however-many-years in Tartarus would act; he didn't even talk about it.

Huh, you know? I never actually thought of that. Nightmare Moon actually mentioned being imprisoned for a thousand years. Discord actually calls Celestia out for sealing him in stone. But aside from a line or two about his brother's betrayal, Tirek pretty much acts like he just showed up for the first time.

 

 

I have to say this is not the first time this has happened, The Crystal Empire did it worse because at least here they needed to be here for the rainbow power.

What? Did you forget about Spike?

[Arctofire 227]

What? Did you forget about Spike?

 

Spike and Twilight are like Ash and Pikachu.

Edited February 25, 2015 by Arctofire

[Dulset Tarn 441]

Spike and Twilight are like Ash and Pikachu.

Clarify that please sir.

[Arctofire 227]

Clarify that please sir.

 

Basically, their inseparable. With one, comes the other, and they play off each other a lot. True, Spike has a lot more personality than Pikachu, but he's basically Twilight's sidekick. He's not really a main character in his own right.

Edited February 25, 2015 by Arctofire

[Dulset Tarn 441]

Basically, there inseparable. With one, comes the other, and they play off each other a lot. True, Spike has a lot more personality than Pikachu, but he's basically Twilight's sidekick. He's not really a main character in his own right.

Uh, except for all three two-parters before that one.

In the ones where Twilight got direct help from her friends, Spike had to sit out. So Crystal Empire simply uses the same formula but adds in Spike instead of the mane 5, and it very skillfully focuses on their relationship, as it was intended to. Twilight get nowhere without Spike's help (she never gets anywhere ever without help) and their bond is more strongly established. There's no real difference in Twilight-focus between that and the previous two-parters.

[Arctofire 227]

Uh, except for all three two-parters before that one.

In the ones where Twilight got direct help from her friends, Spike had to sit out. So Crystal Empire simply uses the same formula but adds in Spike instead of the mane 5, and it very skillfully focuses on their relationship, as it was intended to. Twilight get nowhere without Spike's help (she never gets anywhere ever without help) and their bond is more strongly established. There's no real difference in Twilight-focus between that and the previous two-parters.

 

Her friends didn't do anything, and there are many other problems with that episode, such as why did Celestia tell Twilight NOT to do the thing which would save The Crystal Empire. There are also some EQG style songs, Princess Cadance and Shining Armor returning with no more character development, and overall just a really weak 2 parter.

 

I will agree that Spike was done well in that episode, McCarthy always writes him well, but that doesn't make it any less of a Twilight dominated episode, and Spike's thing at the end could have just been anyone else.

 

I'll give credit where credit is due though. The traps they had to go through and the hallucinations they both go through were AWESOME. I think King Sombra wasn't the problem here, he actually poses a real threat to the mane 6, it's just most other things which are a problem.

 

Anyway, we were suppose to be talking about Twilight's Kingdom, specifically Tirek. Not The Crystal Empire.

[Dulset Tarn 441]

Her friends didn't do anything, and there are many other problems with that episode, such as why did Celestia tell Twilight NOT to do the thing which would save The Crystal Empire. There are also some EQG style songs, Princess Cadance and Shining Armor returning with no more character development, and overall just a really weak 2 parter.

 

I will agree that Spike was done well in that episode, McCarthy always writes him well, but that doesn't make it any less of a Twilight dominated episode, and Spike's thing at the end could have just been anyone else.

 

I'll give credit where credit is due though. The traps they had to go through and the hallucinations they both go through were AWESOME. I think King Sombra wasn't the problem here, he actually poses a real threat to the mane 6, it's just most other things which are a problem.

 

Anyway, we were suppose to be talking about Twilight's Kingdom, specifically Tirek. Not The Crystal Empire.

Yes yes there are plenty of problems throughout the episode, but you have no basis for your claim of it being "Twilight dominated". Spike's thing at the end could not have been done by anyone else because only he was there and only he could have been there. Even if that weren't the case, Spike's invaluable contributions throughout the entire two-parter could also not have been done by anyone else. He's exactly as important to the story as the mane 5 were in the pilot episodes, which necessarily means that Twilight was no more "dominating" than she ever has been.

[Arctofire 227]

Okay well yeah, I'm glad he did get a moment to shine in this one. However, this still makes it a Twilight episode because the friends weren't there, only Spike.

 

Anyway, were having a pointless debate and it's completely irreverent to this topic, if you want to discuss this more, please PM me.

 

What did you think of G4 Tirek? Do you even know the G1 character? 

[Dulset Tarn 441]

What did you think of G4 Tirek? Do you even know the G1 character? 

Nope. I agree the swap from clever devil to demigod was jarring, but I didn't prefer one over another so it didn't bother me. I agree with the others that his plot-mandated stupidity was, well, stupid. I thought he was an alright villain, I appreciated that he's supposedly clever enough to trick Discord, but it was only possible because Discord was written absolutely awfully for the entire two-parter, and those words wouldn't have worked on an actually smart Discord. I'll just pretend they were both more intelligent in that scene than they were written and we didn't get to see what actually happened

 

I wasn't all that entertained by him as a character, but you know what I did like a lot? He actually interacted with another villain. Sure his interactions with Discord could have been a lot better, but no other villain has actually interacted with another, and it's positively a goldmine of characterization and humor.

[Fractured 2,684]

They started off with something interesting. Tirek "1" was mysterious, intelligent, and menacing, like Scar, or Frollo from Hunchback of Notre Dame.

 

They ended up with something boring. Tirek "2" was loud, flamboyant, stupid, and single- minded, just like every other tired, unoriginal, third rate production villain. He might as well have been on a reject pile of DBZ antagonists.

[Arctofire 227]

They started off with something interesting. Tirek "1" was mysterious, intelligent, and menacing, like Scar, or Frollo from Hunchback of Notre Dame.

 

They ended up with something boring. Tirek "2" was loud, flamboyant, stupid, and single- minded, just like every other tired, unoriginal, third rate production villain. He might as well have been on a reject pile of DBZ antagonists.

 

Absolutely, right on the mark.

Edited February 27, 2015 by Arctofire

[ArcheoPony 76]

I'm not fond of G4 Tirek, mind you the original wasn't impressive, but he was the first take on part of the franchise so it was passable. As someone mentioned before, McCarthy can't really write good villains. They all have rather shallow motives and presentation. What saved Chrysalis was her reveal, and the fact that said reveal came as part of introducing and entire race, an entire race Lauren had thought up as a concept to be a constant enemy of Equestria's in her early workings of the show, so it wasn't entirely a McCarthy thing.

 

Long before S4 I had been discussing with friends how G4 villains could be adapted. One thing that we though was cool was Tirek's goal of collecting pony's for his chariot. How is that cool? It was pretty stupid yeah, but it gave us the idea that it'd be interesting if he was depicted as a sort of trophy hunter as a G4 interpretation. Though a commonly used trope, it usually tends to be a fun one, and would have added a little bit of variety among the villains if executed creatively. But we got what we got....

[Cloud Strife 928]

As it stands, there is no logical justification you could possibly give to explain why Tirek simply decided to let Twilight and the mane five go, despite having no reason nor incentive to. I'm sorry, but when it starts becoming obvious that you've made it literally impossible for the heroes to lose, that's when you realize how poorly-written your plot is. 

 

 

Here's the thing: you're saying that it's basis on "logic this, logic that".

 

I gave a reason that had nothing to do with logic; it had to do with character, and character choices aren't always logical. To Tirek, he thought he's won. Think of it from his perspective and NOT the audience's. We know that the rainbow powers will come into play and we know that they will be able to worm their way out of it if they're allowed to go free, but does Tirek know that? I think not. I don't think he knew anything about the keys or their usage, and every single one of them had their magic drained, which is about the biggest thing ponies can do in order to combat anything. HE DRAINED FOUR ALICORNS' MAGIC. That is not a small thing, and if the rainbow powers did not exist, Tirek would've won regardless if he banished them or not. 

 

To him, he's already won. The difference between that situation and the situation with the other three alicorns is that he hadn't won by that point in time. Also, if he had not let them free, he wouldn't have been able to obtain Twilight's magic since they'd been at a stalemate. You are right in that nothing was stopping him from banishing them after that but what would the point of that be? Wasted effort if he was in full belief that there was no magic left in Equestria that could stop him.

[EpitomeOfTruth 243]

Here's the thing: you're saying that it's basis on "logic this, logic that".

 

I gave a reason that had nothing to do with logic; it had to do with character, and character choices aren't always logical. To Tirek, he thought he's won. Think of it from his perspective and NOT the audience's. We know that the rainbow powers will come into play and we know that they will be able to worm their way out of it if they're allowed to go free, but does Tirek know that? I think not. I don't think he knew anything about the keys or their usage, and every single one of them had their magic drained, which is about the biggest thing ponies can do in order to combat anything. HE DRAINED FOUR ALICORNS' MAGIC. That is not a small thing, and if the rainbow powers did not exist, Tirek would've won regardless if he banished them or not. 

 

To him, he's already won. The difference between that situation and the situation with the other three alicorns is that he hadn't won by that point in time. Also, if he had not let them free, he wouldn't have been able to obtain Twilight's magic since they'd been at a stalemate. You are right in that nothing was stopping him from banishing them after that but what would the point of that be? Wasted effort if he was in full belief that there was no magic left in Equestria that could stop him.

This post sums up my feelings on this greatly. People should watch TV shows, especially cartoons, like they are actual, true stories instead of something someone wrote. Only then can you understand the choices characters make (and how stupid terms like "out of character" , but thats a whole different can of worms)