Something sinister about the Tree of Harmony. Tirek was a good guy?

[ManaMinori 4,149]

 

Buck Testa has written a gloriously eye-opening fic that goes into greater detail of the ToH and, that inspired this thread's theory.

Go. Read.https://www.fimfiction.net/story/320843/where-spike-came-from

_______________________________________

 

Looking at the entirety of FiM, and a lot of the lines and lore around cutie marks, how they tie to the tree, the map, destiny, controlled/compelled actions of ponies by the tree, etc. I can't help but feel like there's something very off and disturbing about the Tree of Harmony.

 

Through cutie marks, which stem from its magic, since we've seen can be activated by the map, which is a part of the tree, along with having Sunbutt, Luna, and Twilight's marks on its trunk long before they actually got their marks, or were even born suggests that the tree is not just tied to the mane 6's and princesses destinies and magic, but everypony in Equestria. Contoling their fates, their magic, using everyone as puppets to carry out its will of bringing harmony to society, without their consent or even knowledge of the true nature of things. While simultaneously altering the nature of what creature dares to defy its will.

 

One word that Tirek threw around a lot was freedom. I find it disturbing that the tree's will can alter even Discord's inherent nature as a spirit of chaos. How he was meant to be. How he always has been. Could that be why he sought to strangle the tree, under the belief that a peron's inherent nature shouldn't be altered in such a way? I mean, he was turned to stone twice, for just being himself, but that went against the Tree's will, so it used the element bearers to stone him.

 

Was Tirek trying to do the same? Stealing magic granted by the tree, a mechanism that the tree used to control everypony, in order to free them from controlled and manipulated destinies by the puppeteer tree. That would explain why Tirek was lazerbeaming the Everfree forest in blind rage- looking to destroy the tree with its own power that he collected from the ponies.

 

It would explain why the mane 5 beleived that their switched cutie marks were what they had always been doing. "It's what my cutie mark is telling me". And the marks are bestowed by and connected to the magic of the tree. Again, seeing as how the tree controlls the cutie map, and the 6's marks, and compel them to go places to impose its will on others.

 

The ponies have no choice, because they're puppets of the tree, and I'm completely freaked out by this. Tirek was only freeing the ponies of the Tree's influence and magic. He opposed the Tree's will, and was unjustly punished or it.

Edited March 28, 2016 by Nightmare Muffin

[captainborgue 343]

That would be a compelling argument, if Tirek hadn't been in the process of utterly destroying pony society and ruling it as a despot. sure, he may have been the right thing, but for the wrong reasons. Further, the supposition that ponies lack free will and are compelled to act in accordance with the cutie mark is contradicted by the established canon- in that blank flanks often act in a manner inconsistent with the mark they will end up getting, and in the ambiguous nature of cutie marks as they pertain to special talents. Cheerilee's cutie mark is flowers, yet she is not a botanist because she chose to interpret it as relating to children, for example.

 

I get the idea of wanting to develop a villain beyond the "big mean bad guy is mean because he's bad" trope, though.

[ManaMinori 4,149]

That would be a compelling argument, if Tirek hadn't been in the process of utterly destroying pony society and ruling it as a despot. sure, he may have been the right thing, but for the wrong reasons. Further, the supposition that ponies lack free will and are compelled to act in accordance with the cutie mark is contradicted by the established canon- in that blank flanks often act in a manner inconsistent with the mark they will end up getting, and in the ambiguous nature of cutie marks as they pertain to special talents. Cheerilee's cutie mark is flowers, yet she is not a botanist because she chose to interpret it as relating to children, for example.

 

I get the idea of wanting to develop a villain beyond the "big mean bad guy is mean because he's bad" trope, though.

a pony can interpret their slave collar however they want. But point is, they're controlled by it. It's their destiny, which is dictated and managed by te tree, as evidence provides.

[captainborgue 343]

If they have a choice- and clearly they do- then it isn't slavery.

 

Now, an overpowered tyrant removing every possible means by which the populace can resist or oppose him, on the other hand, yeah. That's slavery. See, because they didn't have a choice- they WANTED their magic, and flight, and all that. And it was taken against their will. Kind of rapey, that...

[Mesme Rize 15,692]

You can interpret it like that, sure.

 

But in reality, the writers never intended anything like that. The show is very black and white, because it's a kids show and there is only good and evil, instead of anything inbetween. So saying that Tirek is a good guy in anyway, is really ludicrous. These ponies need their magic for everyday life and to uphold order in Equestria. Unless you're having an anarchist view point, i can't see how anyone would find that positive.

[cider float 2,539]

So let's put it this way.

 

With all the magic taken from the ponies Tirek would be the only one that can romp around as he pleases destroying anyone or anything that displeases him. The ponies without their talents won't be able to manage and maintain their way of life, their buildings will crumble, their food will diminish and they won't be able to use their tools. Eventually they will be forced into the wild where they have no magic to fend for themselves eventually getting killed by the wild beasts and monsters.

 

Under the Tree of Harmony the ponies were able to create walls to keep monsters away from themselves and their young, they grew food without the need to gather them outside, they could express themselves through arts and crafts, had magic to fend themselves from monsters that crept through the walls and were able to sleep content knowing something isn't going to eat them while they're sleeping.

 

So yeah... the tree is so evil that it granted every pony a gift....

[Black Sabbath 2,488]

I mean, he was turned to stone twice, for just being himself, but that went against the Tree's will, so it used the element bearers to stone him.

May I ask what made you think that the reason the tree "stoned" him was simply because he wasn't like the tree wanted him to be?

[Concerned Bystander 2,905]

We know that the tree has a connection to the bearers of the Elements of Harmony, past present and (presumably) future.  That is it, there is nothing at all that even implies that the tree has any power of control over those ponies, let alone the vast majority of ponies that were not, are not, nor ever will be the bearers of the Elements.

 

As for the map, which granted is related to the tree, we haven't seen what might happen if a pony was to refuse the call, we have only seen the map use suggestion, never compulsion.

 

The whole lore behind cutie marks is a little murky, some of them represent talents, some of them represent occupations and some represent personality traits and in any case are pretty much open to interpretation.

 

The most interesting case study would be Mayor Mare.  Her mark is a rolled up scroll, which could be interpreted in many ways, it may represent a studious nature, or a talent for administrative work.  But was she destined to become the Mayor of Ponyville?  What did she do before she became Mayor?  I don't recall seeing an election in any episode, although that in itself proves nothing as her term may simply not have expired yet.  Do they even elect their Mayor?  Could Mr Cake run for Mayor?  His mark (three slices of cake) represents either his occupation, his talent, or both, does this make him ineligible to run for elected office?

 

So many questions!

[Luminance 2,187]

Why would the Tree of Harmony do something so devious in the first place anyway? As depicted in the show, everypony has the free will to decide their own destinies and their cutie marks. The Tree of Harmony wouldn't be called "Harmony' if the intent was depicted to create disharmony.

Edited March 27, 2016 by MiataPony

[SBaby 660]

 I don't know if the tree by itself would be responsible for it though.  However, the tree could very well be an outlet through which a hidden being or faction controls the land with an iron fist.

 

Why would the Tree of Harmony do something so devious in the first place anyway?

 

A means of control.  That would be the simplest reason.  We don't know WHY, but it can be surmised that it is important for who or whatever is doing it to have that degree of control.

 

 

 

As depicted in the show, everypony has the free will to decide their own destinies and their cutie marks.

 

 

Yet we have seen an episode where the Cutie Marks of the ponies were switched, which literally compelled them to fulfill roles based on the new marks (with often terrible and disastrous results).  They didn't try and figure out what was going on, or wonder why they didn't have their normal Cutie Marks on them.  They saw the new marks, and leaped into action to try and essentially obey them.

 

 

 

The Tree of Harmony wouldn't be called "Harmony' if the intent was depicted to create disharmony.

 

The word 'harmony' could also be used as a means of control though.  In the episode 'The Cutie Map', we see an entire society that lives in a dystopian land where they are all equal (with their Cutie Marks changed to reflect this).  From the perspective of a totalitarian ruler, that could be considered a form of harmony.  No wars, no arguments, and no free will.  All controlled by one individual.  Cause disharmony, and you get punished.

 

The same could easily be said about the land of Equestria.  One individual may very well be controlling everything without the ponies even realizing it.  Any time anything has shown up to cause disharmony, it was stopped, often by force.

Edited March 28, 2016 by SBaby

[Daring_Do 552]

Looking at the entirety of FiM, and a lot of the lines and lore around cutie marks, how they tie to the tree, the map, destiny, controlled/compelled actions of ponies by the tree, etc. I can't help but feel like there's something very off and disturbing about the Tree of Harmony.

 

Through cutie marks, which stem from its magic, since we've seen can be activated by the map, which is a part of the tree, along with having Sunbutt, Luna, and Twilight's marks on its trunk long before they actually got their marks, or were even born suggests that the tree is not just tied to the mane 6's and princesses destinies and magic, but everypony in Equestria. Contoling their fates, their magic, using everyone as puppets to carry out its will of bringing harmony to society, without their consent or even knowledge of the true nature of things. While simultaneously altering the nature of what creature dares to defy its will.

 

One word that Tirek threw around a lot was freedom. I find it disturbing that the tree's will can alter even Discord's inherent nature as a spirit of chaos. How he was meant to be. How he always has been. Could that be why he sought to strangle the tree, under the belief that a peron's inherent nature shouldn't be altered in such a way? I mean, he was turned to stone twice, for just being himself, but that went against the Tree's will, so it used the element bearers to stone him.

 

Was Tirek trying to do the same? Stealing magic granted by the tree, a mechanism that the tree used to control everypony, in order to free them from controlled and manipulated destinies by the puppeteer tree. That would explain why Tirek was lazerbeaming the Everfree forest in blind rage- looking to destroy the tree with its own power that he collected from the ponies.

 

It would explain why the mane 5 beleived that their switched cutie marks were what they had always been doing. "It's what my cutie mark is telling me". And the marks are bestowed by and connected to the magic of the tree. Again, seeing as how the tree controlls the cutie map, and the 6's marks, and compel them to go places to impose its will on others.

 

The ponies have no choice, because they're puppets of the tree, and I'm completely freaked out by this. Tirek was only freeing the ponies of the Tree's influence and magic. He opposed the Tree's will, and was unjustly punished or it.

I don't actually believe this, but it's definitely a fun idea.

 

The tree's ties to ponies' cutie marks especially. Is it the source of cutie marks? Could it be that ponies didn't have them, before the tree came along? In fact, could it be that even the ponies' intelligence is thanks to the tree, and before that they were just as (comparatively) dumb as actual ponies?

 

And off topic, I'm interested in that "wild mustang from Mustangia" from... Games Ponies Play, was it? The pony they mistook for the games inspector? What does being a wild horse mean in the context of this setting? I picture Mustangia being a part of Equestria - Not a city, just an open space of land - where the ponies, even if they've got just as much smarts as ponies elsewhere, don't make buildings or tools or civilization. They're exactly like real ponies. The only reason (in my headcanon) that pony in the episode was wearing a dress or whatever was because she heard they sometimes wear clothes in other parts of Equestria, so she dressed up for the sake of her trip.

Edited March 28, 2016 by Daring_Do

[ManaMinori 4,149]

I don't actually believe this, but it's definitely a fun idea.

 

The tree's ties to ponies' cutie marks especially. Is it the source of cutie marks? Could it be that ponies didn't have them, before the tree came along? In fact, could it be that even the ponies' intelligence is thanks to the tree, and before that they were just as (comparatively) dumb as actual ponies?

there's no question as to the tree being the source of their cutie marks. It had sunbutt and Luna and Twilight's marks on its trunk when the royal sisters were not only blank flanks, but had no knowledge of the tree existing. It has Twi's mark on it generations before she was even born. It decided and controlled the destinies of ponies for them to get those marks. First through Starswirl, with THE royal sisters, and then through the sisters with Twilight. Likely the same for every other pony.

[Daring_Do 552]

Back from eating, and oh boy - Mind if I go off on a little tangent here? Tying my Mustangia headcanon into the "tree is why the ponies are smart" (they are pretty smart for animals, you've gotta admit)...

 

I've got some real fanfic fodder here. What *is* Mustangia? I said above an area or part of Equestria. But what part?

 

So it hits me. How much do we know about the areas *between* the villages/towns of Equestria? What if all that open space (not that there's much of it; The kingdom seems pretty packed) *is* what they call "Mustangia"? That there are actually two pony "societies" layered on top of one another - not that Mustangia can be thought of as a society. They don't have buildings, they don't have tools. Celestia may have tried diplomatic contact before, but that doesn't work when they have no concept of delegates or unified government. And it's not that the wild ponies shun "civilization" by choice - No, to them it just seems strange and unnatural, and the way they do things is what comes naturally.

 

Because it is natural for ponies. Not that anyone remembers (or do they?). The wild ponies certainly don't keep history. But 1,982 years ago, inexplicably, some ponies started building primitive shelters, etc., while others didn't. And around this time, maybe some started being born with horns, or wings...

 

Was it the tree's doing, or was it some other force? I don't know. And I'm taking inspiration from a great short fanfic I read a while back, mind you, so this isn't completely my own ideas here.

[Mesme Rize 15,692]

The word 'harmony' could also be used as a means of control though.  In the episode 'The Cutie Map', we see an entire society that lives in a dystopian land where they are all equal (with their Cutie Marks changed to reflect this).  From the perspective of a totalitarian ruler, that could be considered a form of harmony.  No wars, no arguments, and no free will.  All controlled by one individual.  Cause disharmony, and you get punished.

 

The same could easily be said about the land of Equestria.  One individual may very well be controlling everything without the ponies even realizing it.  Any time anything has shown up to cause disharmony, it was stopped, often by force.

 

So basically what you want is anarchy?

 

Face it, the world (be it equestria or our world) needs certain rules for it to work, no matter how much you don't want to believe it. Freedom dosen't mean that you can do everything that you want. You also have to find your place in society.

 

Call it Destiny, call it slavery, call whatever you want. This is how nature works and no matter how you want to put it, it's the way it is.

[Justin_Case001 4,934]

Tirek enjoys the suffering of others.  He wants absolute power, and to watch the world burn.  I think he's about as evil as it gets.

 

However, I've long had ethical dilemmas surrounding the Tree, to an extent, but much more the Cutie Map.  The map is totalitarian, for sure.  Many believe the tree and the map are sentient.  My personal headcanon is that the map is part of magical Daemon (Disk And Execution MONitor) created by Starswirl as part of a grand master plan to establish a new world order.  Either way, the map definitely exhibits control over the mane 6, and I've never liked it.  I think it should be destroyed, and the ponies should just find and solve friendship problems naturally, as they come to them.

[SBaby 660]

So basically what you want is anarchy?

 

Face it, the world (be it equestria or our world) needs certain rules for it to work, no matter how much you don't want to believe it. Freedom dosen't mean that you can do everything that you want. You also have to find your place in society.

 

Call it Destiny, call it slavery, call whatever you want. This is how nature works and no matter how you want to put it, it's the way it is.

 

I think you're missing the purpose of this topic a little.  We're not suggesting that there should be any kind of anarchy.

 

What we are saying is the established status quo that's been presented to us in the show could theoretically be a hidden form of control set up by a yet unknown force in the world.  That's all.  It's just theories.

 

And the evidence supporting those theories stems from (no pun intended) the tree and the map.  Both items have been tied to the fate of not only the mane six, but to all of Equestria.  

Edited March 28, 2016 by SBaby

[Mesme Rize 15,692]

I think you're missing the purpose of this topic a little.  We're not suggesting that there should be any kind of anarchy.

 

What we are saying is the established status quo that's been presented to us in the show could theoretically be a hidden form of control set up by a yet unknown force in the world.  That's all.  It's just theories.

 

Okay, then i will say that those theories are bollocks, because Equestria is established to me as black and white, like i said earlier and that would be it for me.

 

My theory

[SBaby 660]

 

 

Okay, then i will say that those theories are bollocks, because Equestria is established to me as black and white, like i said earlier and that would be it for me.   My theory

 

And indeed, that's likely the way most ponies in Equestria think.  Or rather, they likely don't even think about it at all, because it's just something that's existed their whole lives and for generations and thousands of years before them.  So if something like that was established as a means of control, they likely wouldn't be aware of it.  Even Celestia and Luna likely wouldn't be aware of it, since it existed even before they were born.

 

But that thought process is precisely the reason why whoever or whatever is behind the tree and map has managed to stay in control for so long.  None of the ponies question it, because they aren't aware of it.

[Mesme Rize 15,692]

And indeed, that's likely the way most ponies in Equestria think.  Or rather, they likely don't even think about it at all, because it's just something that's existed their whole lives and for generations and thousands of years before them.  So if something like that was established as a means of control, they likely wouldn't be aware of it.  Even Celestia and Luna likely wouldn't be aware of it, since it existed even before they were born.

 

But that thought process is precisely the reason why whoever or whatever is behind the tree and map has managed to stay in control for so long.  None of the ponies question it, because they aren't aware of it.

 

There is nothing with that tree. It's a freaking kids show and not a philosophical show about the secrets about the illuminati.

 

What do you think this show is?

[Buck Testa 5,505]

Glad to know my fanfic affected you so badly @@Nightmare Muffin, It was a ton of fun to write. 

[Daring_Do 552]

There is nothing with that tree. It's a freaking kids show and not a philosophical show about the secrets about the illuminati.

 

What do you think this show is?

You mean this isn't GravityFallsForums?

[ManaMinori 4,149]

There is nothing with that tree. It's a freaking kids show and not a philosophical show about the secrets about the illuminati.

 

What do you think this show is?

what? WHAT?!

I call Bull on that. Absolute bull.

https://youtu.be/rAp6Ths_sxc

https://mlpforums.com/uploads/monthly_03_2014/post-24783-0-40154300-1395684071.jpeg

[20% Cooler Than Cake 161]

The way I see it, we can't really tell for sure how much power the Tree has over the ponies of Equestria and beyond.  But does it even matter?  The fact is, as long as the tree uses its power for the good of Equestria, it doesn't matter how much of that power there is.  The only problems would come if the Tree began making the ponies do things that they wouldn't normally do.

 

In short, the more power someone or something has, the worse the consequences for misusing that power are, but also, the greater the rewards for properly using that power are.

[cider float 2,539]

The tree has been nothing but a source of good. So far it hasn't shown any sign of sapience so can't say it's evil. But it does have positive energies that helped the ponies in times of need.

[Daring_Do 552]

The only problems would come if the Tree began making the ponies do things that they wouldn't normally do.

What do you think of my theory on Page 1?