I don't think Starlight is quite as "OP" as some might think.

KatonRyu · October 11, 2016

This analysis puts Starlight in a somewhat new light for me, really. Mainly the part where Twilight would be holding back in her fight while Starlight was going all-out. I hadn't even considered the possibility that Twilight could have not been using her full power when she was fighting Starlight in the Season 5 final. Taking that into account, I'm not as bothered by her talent as I was before. I was never truly against it, but I did wonder how a unicorn like her could match Twilight in raw power despite Twilight pretty much being magic incarnate.

I also agree that her reliance on extremely powerful magic is her main character flaw. Just like Twilight during her first Winter Wrap Up, she needs to learn to face problems without going overboard with magic. My headcanon is that her talent is modifying existing magic, rather than creating new magic. She might use it in clever and unusual ways, but I don't think her spells are of her own making, even the cutie mark stealing spell.

Goat-kun · October 12, 2016

Well make up your mind! Do you want to give her a chance to develop her character and have slice of life episodes (where she'd learn things other than magic, heck maybe the CMC will help her find hobbies) yet complain there's too much Starlight, or not give her this chance yet complain her character isn't developed, only useful and suited for action-oriented episodes?

You misunderstood.

The limited pool of episodes she could star in hints at her lack of viability as a FIM character. When it comes to ponies, humor and lightheartedness are everything, and Starlight ain’t looking nearly as cute and distressed as Twilight or even Discord when she’s doing the whole magic abuse thing. Moreover, she has nothing to do outside demonstrating her magic superiority and reheating the “Y friendship so hard?!” lessons. This is not because she needs to be fleshed out as a character but because she already is, and her character is that of a powerful and wangsty OC fans tend to create when they embark on their first epic fanfic adventure but forget to make it functional in the great Equestrian scheme of a family friendly show. It is also likely that any quirk or hobby bestowed upon her would feel tacked on, further cementing her as a self-insert OC. You can’t build a skyscraper out of rotten wood.

When you’re designing a new protagonist for an established group, you need to think ahead and offer your audience something new and awesome that hasn’t been done before within your fantasy. Moreover, it is desired from the new member’s abilities to be different than those of other protagonists, offering not only a new angle but also a new approach to trials and tribulations. Then you figure out the team dynamics and voilà: a decent new protagonist. Starlight has the same power level and technique as Twilight, and her personality is upstaged by just about any other character in her episodes that is not beaten down by the idiot stick. You may consider this a decent attempt, but I cannot.

The sociopathy is what makes her interesting, but it also clashes with the show's themes. That said, I do think a relatively plain redemption arc would have held me for a good while. Still... girl needs more quirks.

When I want my hefty dose of fantasy and psychopathy, I choose A Song of Ice and Fire and Berserk. Let’s leave these disorders to stories that can handle them without pussyfooting around in such an unsightly manner. Also, Farnese is best waifu. Ah, to think that many years ago I wanted her to die screaming.

Anyway, I don’t think our glorious writers intended for Starlight to be perceived this way. It speaks volumes though. And this ain’t Darkest Dungeon: characters can’t just acquire quirks from thin air.

Ninjaed · October 12, 2016

You misunderstood.

The limited pool of episodes she could star in hints at her lack of viability as a FIM character. When it comes to ponies, humor and lightheartedness are everything, and Starlight ain’t looking nearly as cute and distressed as Twilight or even Discord when she’s doing the whole magic abuse thing. Moreover, she has nothing to do outside demonstrating her magic superiority and reheating the “Y friendship so hard?!” lessons. This is not because she needs to be fleshed out as a character but because she already is, and her character is that of a powerful and wangsty OC fans tend to create when they embark on their first epic fanfic adventure but forget to make it functional in the great Equestrian scheme of a family friendly show. It is also likely that any quirk or hobby bestowed upon her would feel tacked on, further cementing her as a self-insert OC. You can’t build a skyscraper out of rotten wood.

When you’re designing a new protagonist for an established group, you need to think ahead and offer your audience something new and awesome that hasn’t been done before within your fantasy. Moreover, it is desired from the new member’s abilities to be different than those of other protagonists, offering not only a new angle but also a new approach to trials and tribulations. Then you figure out the team dynamics and voilà: a decent new protagonist. Starlight has the same power level and technique as Twilight, and her personality is upstaged by just about any other character in her episodes that is not beaten down by the idiot stick. You may consider this a decent attempt, but I cannot.

When I want my hefty dose of fantasy and psychopathy, I choose A Song of Ice and Fire and Berserk. Let’s leave these disorders to stories that can handle them without pussyfooting around in such an unsightly manner. Also, Farnese is best waifu. Ah, to think that many years ago I wanted her to die screaming.

Anyway, I don’t think our glorious writers intended for Starlight to be perceived this way. It speaks volumes though. And this ain’t Darkest Dungeon: characters can’t just acquire quirks from thin air.

Hmm, limited pool of episodes she could star in? I don't know, I find that her pool is not as limited as you suggest. Certainly, abusing ponies magically isn't the cutest thing, but she also has many cute moments. When she had crystal ponies gather around Spike to avoid her lesson, while sitting down and eating popcon made me crack a good laugh.

I generally find her struggling to become a better pony just endearing. Her backstory revealed she wanted to be part of the family friendly show, but something got in the way and butterfly effect. Now, she's terrible at practically everything else. Heck, she can't even cook with her hooves!

So you are partly right, she is clashing a bit with the rest, but not by choice. In fact, her character may portray people in real life who would love to make friends, but can't bring themselves to and instead stay in their "comfort zone", shutting themselves out. And so Twilight, as her friend, is forcing her out of it. In fact, you may notice how their relationship is a bit that of a mentor/mother/older sibling and a child. Starlight is looking up to Twilight the very same way she was looking up to Sunburst. This is basically Starlight getting the childhood lessons she never could get.

We can't say yet for her hobbies being tacked on, but for her being upstaged by other characters, I think this is more because of your apprehension toward her. And just like the title of this thread says, I don't think Starlight is quite as op as some might think. Lord-pomegranate made a really good point about it a few posts above.

P.S.: I'm not sure I made sense, I'm a bit sick so my brain has a bit the dumb. Sorry if I've failed to reply to your points.

Goat-kun · October 12, 2016

Hmm, limited pool of episodes she could star in? I don't know, I find that her pool is not as limited as you suggest. Certainly, abusing ponies magically isn't the cutest thing, but she also has many cute moments. When she had crystal ponies gather around Spike to avoid her lesson, while sitting down and eating popcon made me crack a good laugh.

I generally find her struggling to become a better pony just endearing. Her backstory revealed she wanted to be part of the family friendly show, but something got in the way and butterfly effect. Now, she's terrible at practically everything else. Heck, she can't even cook with her hooves!

So you are partly right, she is clashing a bit with the rest, but not by choice. In fact, her character may portray people in real life who would love to make friends, but can't bring themselves to and instead stay in their "comfort zone", shutting themselves out. And so Twilight, as her friend, is forcing her out of it. In fact, you may notice how their relationship is a bit that of a mentor/mother/older sibling and a child. Starlight is looking up to Twilight the very same way she was looking up to Sunburst. This is basically Starlight getting the childhood lessons she never could get.

We can't say yet for her hobbies being tacked on, but for her being upstaged by other characters, I think this is more because of your apprehension toward her. And just like the title of this thread says, I don't think Starlight is quite as op as some might think. Lord-pomegranate made a really good point about it a few posts above.

P.S.: I'm not sure I made sense, I'm a bit sick so my brain has a bit the dumb. Sorry if I've failed to reply to your points.

We treat FIM differently. You try to explain it using conventional examples while I like to play with the show’s innards. Yes, I do have apprehension towards such characters, not just in FIM, but in any other show they appear in. Thankfully, their kind is getting scarce. You have to ask yourself: what kind of a character works within your show and what kind of a character does your show need? My firm belief is that Starlight brings less than she takes. The social awkwardness you mention was or can be explored with Luna, Twilight, Fluttershy, or Discord. So whenever I see Starlight in an episode, I can always think of another character that could have gotten further development instead, and that vexes me.

As far as her quirks are concerned, I shall admit that this stems mostly from my gut. The way she has been portrayed recalls some good old memories from my more active weeb days and that plays with my shit sensors. We shall see if my hunches are correct soon enough, and if they’re not, I will be the first one to call myself out.

And can you do me a favor and stop with the whole overpowered thing. Sheer power alone is not why she’s hated. Most of the hate stems from either her character or the notion that she’s derailing the whole show from Mane 6 who have done nothing impressive this entire season. She got both two-parters, a story arc, practically turned Twilight into Celestia Mk. II, and if this continues in S07, expect more hate coming her way. Drastic changes to the object of adoration incite drastic reactions from fandoms of said object. Sometimes it pays off. Sometimes it doesn’t.

Get well.

Ninjaed · October 13, 2016

We treat FIM differently. You try to explain it using conventional examples while I like to play with the show’s innards. Yes, I do have apprehension towards such characters, not just in FIM, but in any other show they appear in. Thankfully, their kind is getting scarce. You have to ask yourself: what kind of a character works within your show and what kind of a character does your show need? My firm belief is that Starlight brings less than she takes. The social awkwardness you mention was or can be explored with Luna, Twilight, Fluttershy, or Discord. So whenever I see Starlight in an episode, I can always think of another character that could have gotten further development instead, and that vexes me.

Hmm I can see where you're coming from. It's true she shares characteristics with others. Reformed villain => Luna or Discord. Magic => Twilight. Social awkardness => Fluttershy (and formerly Twilight). What I find "fresh" with her is emotional trauma from when she was a filly which grew to translate into social ineptitude hidden behind a confident shell. Luna went ahead and asked Twilight to help her fit in. Starlight is doing the exact opposite.

Discord is a wild card, so he's a special case. Usually though, he's not interested if it doesn't concern Fluttershy. Or Twilight.

In terms of personality, she can be a deadpan snarker, poking fun at what's considered normal or good in the show. That makes her serve as a foil of sorts to contrast with the other characters. Know how showing good makes bad even bad-er, and showing bad makes good even good-er? It's a bit the same. She can help showcase what is taken for granted and make you realise how lucky you are to have it and how good it is. I don't think there's another character that does this. Only Discord and Spike come close, but Discord is teasing and Spike is more about grumpy (and sometimes witty) one liners. Do correct me if I'm wrong, though.

As far as her quirks are concerned, I shall admit that this stems mostly from my gut. The way she has been portrayed recalls some good old memories from my more active weeb days and that plays with my shit sensors. We shall see if my hunches are correct soon enough, and if they’re not, I will be the first one to call myself out.

Don't we all have such beautiful memories? I wish I had the saved the world a few hundred more times during that period...

And can you do me a favor and stop with the whole overpowered thing. Sheer power alone is not why she’s hated. Most of the hate stems from either her character or the notion that she’s derailing the whole show from Mane 6 who have done nothing impressive this entire season. She got both two-parters, a story arc, practically turned Twilight into Celestia Mk. II, and if this continues in S07, expect more hate coming her way. Drastic changes to the object of adoration incite drastic reactions from fandoms of said object. Sometimes it pays off. Sometimes it doesn’t.

Certainly. I was just trying to try and stay in line with what the thread started about. It's true she's had some limelight this season, still many episodes did not star her at all. I think they were trying to have the viewers slowly warm up to her after season 5.

The Mane 6 not doing anything impressive, Celestia and Celestia Mk. II (might as well throw in Cadance and Luna as well)... I'd say their aim was to establish some kind of stability to tie up some loose ends as well as developing Starlight before introducing this development. We have 2 big changes: Flurry Heart and the changelings. I might be wrong, but it felt like they were paving the way for season 7 here.

That's why I think the Mane 6 will be back in "action" during season 7, with Starlight possibly in their stride. If they aren't, even I would be sad, as much as I like Starlight. But I'm confident they can pull it off. I'm still hoping they gave Celestia more love, though.

Get well.

Thank you!

Thrond · October 13, 2016

practically turned Twilight into Celestia Mk. II

Although Twilight now has a role directly mirroring Celestia, the trend of writing her as a mentor character to the detriment of anything interesting about her has its roots as early as season 4. While I actively dislike the show's current treatment of her, I don't think it's especially different from seasons 4 or 5, where she predominantly struggles with princess-related issues and almost never showcases any of her former personality. I firmly believe that her glimpses of charm in "The Saddle Row Review," "The Fault in Our Cutie Marks," and "Pony Point of View" is more than we ever got in season 5, where the most fun she ever was to me was "The Hooffields & the McColts," and that was more from what I saw as budding egotism than any of what used to make her entertaining.

What really disappoints me about Twilight this season is that, for the most part, having as unstable a character as Starlight as her apprentice doesn't seem to be focusing her charater arc. There's implications before of her being uncomfortable with becoming a princess, but unlike the comics, the show can never outright say she never asked for it. If it won't allow itself to imagine its own decisions complexly, then I had hoped that the added pressure of needing to teach Starlight how to function in polite society (which is increasingly what it looks like) would at least allow her to struggle more with that, but I still feel like I'm learning nothing new about her. I still feel like her insecurities are bog-standard and bland. And the show seems less interested in her than ever. To be fair, though, at this point I don't trust the writers to make her interesting, so I struggle to be bothered by that. Starlight, for all her problems, is better than Twilight at the moment; a Starlight episode which doesn't confront her biggest issues still has more novelty and more to offer than a Twilight episode where she needs to solve someone else's problem.

I will say that I don't get people's complaints about the two-parters, because putting the premiere in Starlight's hands resulted in what I felt was a fresh new take that the show, really, really needed, especially after S5's formulaic-as-all-hell finale. Haven't seen the finale yet, but what little I'm hearing suggests that having the Mane Six lead it wouldn't do anything to make it better.

Hmm I can see where you're coming from. It's true she shares characteristics with others. Reformed villain => Luna or Discord. Magic => Twilight. Social awkardness => Fluttershy (and formerly Twilight). What I find "fresh" with her is emotional trauma from when she was a filly which grew to translate into social ineptitude hidden behind a confident shell. Luna went ahead and asked Twilight to help her fit in. Starlight is doing the exact opposite.

Discord is a wild card, so he's a special case. Usually though, he's not interested if it doesn't concern Fluttershy. Or Twilight.

In terms of personality, she can be a deadpan snarker, poking fun at what's considered normal or good in the show. That makes her serve as a foil of sorts to contrast with the other characters. Know how showing good makes bad even bad-er, and showing bad makes good even good-er? It's a bit the same. She can help showcase what is taken for granted and make you realise how lucky you are to have it and how good it is. I don't think there's another character that does this. Only Discord and Spike come close, but Discord is teasing and Spike is more about grumpy (and sometimes witty) one liners. Do correct me if I'm wrong, though.

While I appreciate that emotional trauma, and find many parts of her time on the show quite powerful, I also feel the only thing that Starlight really brings to the table is

1. An uncomplex but potentially very charming redemption tale, OR

2. A stew of psychological issues derived from her developmental issues, which makes her a uniquely dangerous character.

The second is much more interesting to me, but the show being what it is, it will never go all the way and consistently acknowledge that Starlight has a few screws loose and is dangerous as a consequence. In basically every way aside from those issues and her consistent guilt, she's not much more than a mirror-image of Twilight, and that leaves me without much to latch on to with her, especially as the show expects me to root for her and sympathise with her despite not really convincing me that she's learned from her mistakes.

The fact is, at present, those mistakes continue to define her, and for people to put aside their misgivings, the show either needs to delve much deeper into her psyche than it's probably willing to do, have her face some significant consequences so there's a core to her character development, or give her some sort of distinguishing trait which feels organic enough to make her actually stand out for any other reason than her antisocial behaviour. That, I think, is why some people resist her so much, and I'm someone who came into this season really liking her and didn't really start to have misgivings until a ways in.

Most of the potential I see in her right now is stuff that I don't believe the show will do with her, and that's honestly a little bit frustrating. I'm just hoping she's charming in the finale.

Ninjaed · October 13, 2016

What really disappoints me about Twilight this season is that, for the most part, having as unstable a character as Starlight as her apprentice doesn't seem to be focusing her charater arc. There's implications before of her being uncomfortable with becoming a princess, but unlike the comics, the show can never outright say she never asked for it. If it won't allow itself to imagine its own decisions complexly, then I had hoped that the added pressure of needing to teach Starlight how to function in polite society (which is increasingly what it looks like) would at least allow her to struggle more with that, but I still feel like I'm learning nothing new about her. I still feel like her insecurities are bog-standard and bland. And the show seems less interested in her than ever. To be fair, though, at this point I don't trust the writers to make her interesting, so I struggle to be bothered by that. Starlight, for all her problems, is better than Twilight at the moment; a Starlight episode which doesn't confront her biggest issues still has more novelty and more to offer than a Twilight episode where she needs to solve someone else's problem.

I was thinking that their love for magic might actually help show more of the non-princess Twilight. She feels like an older sister to Starlight at the moment, I find. Sometimes having fun together, at others lecturing her. The lecturing part had already been somewhat present due to her princess status, but finding a sparring partner in magic has shown to have brought her some thrill in her life. She never quite could train her magic with someone before. Hopefully this will be used to address some of your concerns over Twilight.

As for the rest, there's too much before I go to sleep, so I'll just say that I agree that Starlight needs some more development. She has to contend with 5 seasons worth of character development, so she's bound to feel "shallow" by comparison at first. I'm looking forward to seeing what they'll do with her character this next season.

Goat-kun · October 13, 2016

Hmm I can see where you're coming from. It's true she shares characteristics with others. Reformed villain => Luna or Discord. Magic => Twilight. Social awkardness => Fluttershy (and formerly Twilight). What I find "fresh" with her is emotional trauma from when she was a filly which grew to translate into social ineptitude hidden behind a confident shell. Luna went ahead and asked Twilight to help her fit in. Starlight is doing the exact opposite.

Discord is a wild card, so he's a special case. Usually though, he's not interested if it doesn't concern Fluttershy. Or Twilight.

In terms of personality, she can be a deadpan snarker, poking fun at what's considered normal or good in the show. That makes her serve as a foil of sorts to contrast with the other characters. Know how showing good makes bad even bad-er, and showing bad makes good even good-er? It's a bit the same. She can help showcase what is taken for granted and make you realise how lucky you are to have it and how good it is. I don't think there's another character that does this. Only Discord and Spike come close, but Discord is teasing and Spike is more about grumpy (and sometimes witty) one liners. Do correct me if I'm wrong, though.

Well Luna, a socially impaired alicorn princess, had her fee fees hurt because she felt that nopony was appreciating her, envied Celestia for taking all the praise and adoration, and put everypony in danger because of such selfish, trivial reasons. Seems familiar? She’s the last mare that would take friendship stuff for granted, the first mare to chastise herself for what she’s done, and she was until recently quite fond of bossing her subjects like some despot. And if my memories serve, it was Twilight that extended her hoof to Luna when she was down the first time they met after the whole nightmare thing.

Don't we all have such beautiful memories? I wish I had the saved the world a few hundred more times during that period...

What can I say? Anime has its fair share of shit. But even when I do say that, I’ll probably be watching it till the day I die. Never heard about this association of weebs with world saving though.

Certainly. I was just trying to try and stay in line with what the thread started about. It's true she's had some limelight this season, still many episodes did not star her at all. I think they were trying to have the viewers slowly warm up to her after season 5.

The Mane 6 not doing anything impressive, Celestia and Celestia Mk. II (might as well throw in Cadance and Luna as well)... I'd say their aim was to establish some kind of stability to tie up some loose ends as well as developing Starlight before introducing this development. We have 2 big changes: Flurry Heart and the changelings. I might be wrong, but it felt like they were paving the way for season 7 here.

That's why I think the Mane 6 will be back in "action" during season 7, with Starlight possibly in their stride. If they aren't, even I would be sad, as much as I like Starlight. But I'm confident they can pull it off. I'm still hoping they gave Celestia more love, though.

If Haber is truly gone, then all is not lost, but I remain cautiously pessimistic. Wouldn’t be the first time H-Bro pulled such bullshit.

Although Twilight now has a role directly mirroring Celestia, the trend of writing her as a mentor character to the detriment of anything interesting about her has its roots as early as season 4. While I actively dislike the show's current treatment of her, I don't think it's especially different from seasons 4 or 5, where she predominantly struggles with princess-related issues and almost never showcases any of her former personality. I firmly believe that her glimpses of charm in "The Saddle Row Review," "The Fault in Our Cutie Marks," and "Pony Point of View" is more than we ever got in season 5, where the most fun she ever was to me was "The Hooffields & the McColts," and that was more from what I saw as budding egotism than any of what used to make her entertaining.

What really disappoints me about Twilight this season is that, for the most part, having as unstable a character as Starlight as her apprentice doesn't seem to be focusing her charater arc. There's implications before of her being uncomfortable with becoming a princess, but unlike the comics, the show can never outright say she never asked for it. If it won't allow itself to imagine its own decisions complexly, then I had hoped that the added pressure of needing to teach Starlight how to function in polite society (which is increasingly what it looks like) would at least allow her to struggle more with that, but I still feel like I'm learning nothing new about her. I still feel like her insecurities are bog-standard and bland. And the show seems less interested in her than ever. To be fair, though, at this point I don't trust the writers to make her interesting, so I struggle to be bothered by that. Starlight, for all her problems, is better than Twilight at the moment; a Starlight episode which doesn't confront her biggest issues still has more novelty and more to offer than a Twilight episode where she needs to solve someone else's problem.

I will say that I don't get people's complaints about the two-parters, because putting the premiere in Starlight's hands resulted in what I felt was a fresh new take that the show, really, really needed, especially after S5's formulaic-as-all-hell finale. Haven't seen the finale yet, but what little I'm hearing suggests that having the Mane Six lead it wouldn't do anything to make it better.

One could sum it up as: つ ◕_◕ ༽つ Give Snarkle or riot!

Heck, I’d spam it.

I caught wind that Star Wars Rebels started the third season, and I am satisfied with the developing relationship between Padawan Ezra and his Master Kanan. They are both growing as characters in their own befitting ways, not by stealing the spotlight from each other, but by giving each other new venues of development. Kanan is slowly shedding his reluctance and becoming the wise teacher his apprentice deserves, and Ezra is learning the temptations of the dark side and what it means to be a Jedi.

I agree about the princess thing. Twily has been suffering ever since she’s become a princess, and instead of fixing it, they’ve introduced Starlight and made Twilight into a glorified friendship quest board with a few mercy slice of life episodes. In this regard, Starlight does feel like her substitution. Unlike Ezra, Starlight hasn’t helped Twilight grow neither as a teacher, nor as a princess. It doesn’t help that the mares are both same age and have a similar magic mastery level, making the whole master-apprentice dynamic quite dysfunctional. Plus, princesses are supposed to be cool now. Why is H-Bro allowing them to look dumb, bland, and unnecessary is beyond my comprehension. Guess Disney did steal all the talent.

The finale was a fresh new take, that I cannot deny. But it also felt like the writers raised their hands over Mane 6. These characters are FIM and if they give up on them, then MLP will also suffer in the long run. What happens when these new characters reach their point? Either FIM should end with Mane 6 or they need to address this.

Ninjaed · October 14, 2016

Well Luna, a socially impaired alicorn princess, had her fee fees hurt because she felt that nopony was appreciating her, envied Celestia for taking all the praise and adoration, and put everypony in danger because of such selfish, trivial reasons. Seems familiar? She’s the last mare that would take friendship stuff for granted, the first mare to chastise herself for what she’s done, and she was until recently quite fond of bossing her subjects like some despot. And if my memories serve, it was Twilight that extended her hoof to Luna when she was down the first time they met after the whole nightmare thing.

Hmm I see what you're meaning. The stories and circumstances are different, though the general structure is the same. I agree that Luna clearly wouldn't take friendship for granted and chastises herself, but as I noted, she was proactive in overcoming her flaws. Starlight is the opposite, and Twilight has to be the one making the first step. Luna has always been strong of will, even right after her reformation. Starlight will only be strong when she firmly believes in something. She is a pony who was content staying in her village after all, who almost unwittingly brought ruin to Equestria and recently had to deal with "princess level stuff", to quote Trixie.

Celestia is actually the one who came right after Nightmare Moon's defeat, to reunite with her younger sister before introducing her to everypony so that they may rule together again. It's only in the second season that Luna's seen again, attempting to enjoy a festival in her honour with the ponies. Except she still had that booming voice, the menacing air as well as using "thou". And then, yes, it is Twilight who helped her with her issues.

I wanted to ask you: had Starlight been removed from Season 6, how would you have written the story to make up for the void this would have left? For instance, how would you have tackled the issues she had to face in another way?

By the way, it's quite fascinating discussing of this with you. You bring up really good points and have me take up at least half an hour to reply every time you do, with the thinking and the editing - I want to write too much. So thanks for the debate!

Thrond · October 14, 2016

but finding a sparring partner in magic has shown to have brought her some thrill in her life. She never quite could train her magic with someone before. Hopefully this will be used to address some of your concerns over Twilight.

Not really what I want out of Twilight, but okay.

As for the rest, there's too much before I go to sleep, so I'll just say that I agree that Starlight needs some more development. She has to contend with 5 seasons worth of character development, so she's bound to feel "shallow" by comparison at first. I'm looking forward to seeing what they'll do with her character this next season.

Honestly, I think she's actually relatively complex for a new character on this show already, but most of what makes her stand out is her mistakes right now, making her a little harder for me to sympathise with. Hope subsequent appearances have her regain some charm and find a unique place in the show which isn't vaguely alarming.

I agree about the princess thing. Twily has been suffering ever since she’s become a princess, and instead of fixing it, they’ve introduced Starlight and made Twilight into a glorified friendship quest board with a few mercy slice of life episodes. In this regard, Starlight does feel like her substitution. Unlike Ezra, Starlight hasn’t helped Twilight grow neither as a teacher, nor as a princess. It doesn’t help that the mares are both same age and have a similar magic mastery level, making the whole master-apprentice dynamic quite dysfunctional. Plus, princesses are supposed to be cool now. Why is H-Bro allowing them to look dumb, bland, and unnecessary is beyond my comprehension. Guess Disney did steal all the talent.

The finale was a fresh new take, that I cannot deny. But it also felt like the writers raised their hands over Mane 6. These characters are FIM and if they give up on them, then MLP will also suffer in the long run. What happens when these new characters reach their point? Either FIM should end with Mane 6 or they need to address this.

Twilight becoming a princess forces the writers to put her into a "wise mentor" role, so as not to render the change seemingly invalid. But people don't plateau in growth, and I'm surprised we haven't seen a lot more of Twilight struggling with princesshood, especially as I have no reason to believe that becoming a princess was exactly something she'd ever considered as a life path. Like the introduction of Starlight, it ought to make her more interesting as a character, but, quite frustratingly, the writers seem a lot more interested in having her "live up to the title" than exploring how she might react personally to these new responsibilities. The excuse that the writers don't know what to do with her doesn't hold water with me, so I think their issue is that they've committed to a particularly limiting direction for the character.

I don't think that Twilight and Starlight being the same age and of similar magical ability is all that important, as Twilight is predominantly a moral mentor more than anything else. On the original topic, I will at least admit that I'm not entirely sure how I feel about some ponies just apparently being born with more magical potential than others, although I maintain being uncertain that becoming an alicorn meant a particularly large boost in magical power for the already-powerful Twilight. Could easily be that, while all alicorns are magically powerful, not all magically powerful ponies are alicorns. I'll only find this a point of contention if Starlight rises significantly above Twilight's level of power, as that sounds a little boring to me unless they really hammer down on her (significant) character flaws. Starlight's magical prowess is the least interesting thing about her as is, but (having not seen the finale yet) I doubt the show will focus too intensely on it. Don't think there's a lot of stories to be told about that aspect of her which wouldn't also focus on her personality.

On your second point, I don't feel like the writers are necessarily giving up on the mane six, but at this point it just seems harder for them to find new dimensions to explore while still fitting into all the same old formulas. For the first several episodes this season, I thought they'd managed to buck the trend and actually come at the show from a new angle, but a lot of episodes feel to me like the same stuff with a different moral or a different context. At this point we know a lot about these characters, so character development is bound to be incremental, and I think what the writers can do to keep the characters fresh is remaining focused on small nuances while putting them in new contexts. I think quite a few episodes this season do a good job with that despite any other misgivings I may have about them.

PonyMage · October 14, 2016

This topic has raised some points I'd never considered. It never occurred to me Twilight might've been holding back, or that, as others have said, Twilight may not actually be the best at magic despite having it as her element.

A thought I've had of my own which ties in with this is that what if the element of Magic is not magic as in horn magic, but friendship magic? Also, I've always assumed Twilight's cutie mark symbolized horn magic, but what if it symbolized unity and the magic it holds? It is not a single star but a constellation, after all. Plus she got it during the Sonic Rainboom, an event which apparently had some sort of "friendship destiny power" or... something.

Ninjaed · October 14, 2016

This topic has raised some points I'd never considered. It never occurred to me Twilight might've been holding back, or that, as others have said, Twilight may not actually be the best at magic despite having it as her element.

A thought I've had of my own which ties in with this is that what if the element of Magic is not magic as in horn magic, but friendship magic? Also, I've always assumed Twilight's cutie mark symbolized horn magic, but what if it symbolized unity and the magic it holds? It is not a single star but a constellation, after all. Plus she got it during the Sonic Rainboom, an event which apparently had some sort of "friendship destiny power" or... something.

I'm pretty sure that this is exactly what it represents. She has always (and very clearly) been at her best when using friendship magic - and this even as a unicorn. She's a very skilled unicorn, but has always been more of an egghead than a spellcaster, in the sense she did not practice as much as others may have. And recently, she's been quite busy, yet remains easily among the top 5% of the population I'm sure, if not above still!

BastementSparkle · October 14, 2016

This topic has raised some points I'd never considered. It never occurred to me Twilight might've been holding back, or that, as others have said, Twilight may not actually be the best at magic despite having it as her element.

A thought I've had of my own which ties in with this is that what if the element of Magic is not magic as in horn magic, but friendship magic? Also, I've always assumed Twilight's cutie mark symbolized horn magic, but what if it symbolized unity and the magic it holds? It is not a single star but a constellation, after all. Plus she got it during the Sonic Rainboom, an event which apparently had some sort of "friendship destiny power" or... something.

Twilight's element actually being "Friendship" makes the most sense to me. She's the Princess of Friendship, not magic. It's even in the title of the show "Friendship is magic", and in the MLP universe, we've seen plenty of instances of friendship and love being translated into actual power.

Even if you think Starlight outclasses Twilight in traditional magic, which I still don't think is necessarily the case, Twilight is still far above her in terms of friendship magic, which we've seen the potential of plenty of times.

Twilight's Friendship is too OP, Hasbro please nerf...again. Even taking away the elements doesn't stop her!

Goat-kun · October 14, 2016

I wanted to ask you: had Starlight been removed from Season 6, how would you have written the story to make up for the void this would have left? For instance, how would you have tackled the issues she had to face in another way?

By the way, it's quite fascinating discussing of this with you. You bring up really good points and have me take up at least half an hour to reply every time you do, with the thinking and the editing - I want to write too much. So thanks for the debate!

I’m flattered. Never though my ramblings could make someone happy. However, a good debate cannot be called as such because of only one person. You and Alex present good arguments.

Now how would I make a Starless Season Six? I would just substitute her with Thorax, with a few alterations, of course. Make him the evil right wing of Chrysalis who fails an important mission (something about babies), he gets exiled, befriended by Spike, gradually learns about pony friendship magic throughout the season, Chrysalis invades and the finale happens. You give Thorax more depth, Twilight gets a changeling for a student, fandom goes wild, everyone wins.

Twilight becoming a princess forces the writers to put her into a "wise mentor" role, so as not to render the change seemingly invalid. But people don't plateau in growth, and I'm surprised we haven't seen a lot more of Twilight struggling with princesshood, especially as I have no reason to believe that becoming a princess was exactly something she'd ever considered as a life path. Like the introduction of Starlight, it ought to make her more interesting as a character, but, quite frustratingly, the writers seem a lot more interested in having her "live up to the title" than exploring how she might react personally to these new responsibilities. The excuse that the writers don't know what to do with her doesn't hold water with me, so I think their issue is that they've committed to a particularly limiting direction for the character.

I don't think that Twilight and Starlight being the same age and of similar magical ability is all that important, as Twilight is predominantly a moral mentor more than anything else. On the original topic, I will at least admit that I'm not entirely sure how I feel about some ponies just apparently being born with more magical potential than others, although I maintain being uncertain that becoming an alicorn meant a particularly large boost in magical power for the already-powerful Twilight. Could easily be that, while all alicorns are magically powerful, not all magically powerful ponies are alicorns. I'll only find this a point of contention if Starlight rises significantly above Twilight's level of power, as that sounds a little boring to me unless they really hammer down on her (significant) character flaws. Starlight's magical prowess is the least interesting thing about her as is, but (having not seen the finale yet) I doubt the show will focus too intensely on it. Don't think there's a lot of stories to be told about that aspect of her which wouldn't also focus on her personality.

On your second point, I don't feel like the writers are necessarily giving up on the mane six, but at this point it just seems harder for them to find new dimensions to explore while still fitting into all the same old formulas. For the first several episodes this season, I thought they'd managed to buck the trend and actually come at the show from a new angle, but a lot of episodes feel to me like the same stuff with a different moral or a different context. At this point we know a lot about these characters, so character development is bound to be incremental, and I think what the writers can do to keep the characters fresh is remaining focused on small nuances while putting them in new contexts. I think quite a few episodes this season do a good job with that despite any other misgivings I may have about them.

A moral mentor works decently in real life, but it’s quite boring in a show for little girls. It further inhibits a character to the brink of passivity, so unless the mentor is an all-encompassing eldritch deity or some other spiritual entity, then this path should not be considered. I think that a classic relationship between an older master and younger apprentice would be easier to pull off in a satisfying way.

As far as princesshood is concerned, I’m pretty sure they have covered all they wanted in the fourth season and now consider Twilight as a perfect little pony princess that just needs to learn how to teach friendship. Apparently that is best done by not exploring it through her point of view. And when it comes to magic mastery, it’s not so much about power as it is about prowess. As they say: a weak yet well-executed spell coupled with a well placed blade can finish of even the most powerful of (mortal) mages. Twilight and Starlight both feel like a couple of drunken Dotka players who go mid to feed. One would expect Twilight to have a bit more elegance and experience to her magic given that she’s Celestia’s faithful student. Meh, it’s just another little thing that could have been explored. If truth be told, I was always disappointed in pony combat. So reckless.

In the end, we’re once again at the beginning: if they cannot find new venues to explore, they should give them one last hurrah in the seventh season and close the book. Though I admit that Mane 6 are very straightforward, which makes them a bid hard to steer, and nuances can only bring you so far. There comes a time when you can’t make a good story without breaking a few status-quos. The time is now. Starlight was one such attempt and it failed. Break again, break good, or go home.

Ninjaed · October 15, 2016

I’m flattered. Never though my ramblings could make someone happy. However, a good debate cannot be called as such because of only one person. You and Alex present good arguments.

Now how would I make a Starless Season Six? I would just substitute her with Thorax, with a few alterations, of course. Make him the evil right wing of Chrysalis who fails an important mission (something about babies), he gets exiled, befriended by Spike, gradually learns about pony friendship magic throughout the season, Chrysalis invades and the finale happens. You give Thorax more depth, Twilight gets a changeling for a student, fandom goes wild, everyone wins.

A moral mentor works decently in real life, but it’s quite boring in a show for little girls. It further inhibits a character to the brink of passivity, so unless the mentor is an all-encompassing eldritch deity or some other spiritual entity, then this path should not be considered. I think that a classic relationship between an older master and younger apprentice would be easier to pull off in a satisfying way.

As far as princesshood is concerned, I’m pretty sure they have covered all they wanted in the fourth season and now consider Twilight as a perfect little pony princess that just needs to learn how to teach friendship. Apparently that is best done by not exploring it through her point of view. And when it comes to magic mastery, it’s not so much about power as it is about prowess. As they say: a weak yet well-executed spell coupled with a well placed blade can finish of even the most powerful of (mortal) mages. Twilight and Starlight both feel like a couple of drunken Dotka players who go mid to feed. One would expect Twilight to have a bit more elegance and experience to her magic given that she’s Celestia’s faithful student. Meh, it’s just another little thing that could have been explored. If truth be told, I was always disappointed in pony combat. So reckless.

In the end, we’re once again at the beginning: if they cannot find new venues to explore, they should give them one last hurrah in the seventh season and close the book. Though I admit that Mane 6 are very straightforward, which makes them a bid hard to steer, and nuances can only bring you so far. There comes a time when you can’t make a good story without breaking a few status-quos. The time is now. Starlight was one such attempt and it failed. Break again, break good, or go home.

Haha, fair enough. I think we can agree that writing even for a show for little girls can be far more daunting a task than it may appear at first glance. Finding new venues to explore like you said becomes harder and harder the more status quos you want to keep, but breaking a status quo is equally hard if not more.

That being said, I think Thorax wouldn't have been a better solution. First because of Hasbro's stance on this show's audience. Do read the thread about what Big Jim said if you haven't yet. Then Thorax is...lacking, as is. He's a character I rather enjoy, mind you. He felt like he didn't belong, escaped, attempted contact and thanks to Spike managed to change and even find a new way for his hive he never forgot about! For a show where almost every single male character is either secondary or an antagonist (with the 2 notable exceptions of Spike and Discord, I'd say), it's quite a big deal. But that's pretty much it. His personality is not outstanding as it is right now.

Anyways, for the episodes Starlight stars in to be Starless (lots of stars here), there would need to be alterations, both to the plot and his character. You suggest him being former evil right wing, exiled due to a failure (about babies, and I suppose a sun too). Then befriended by Spike, he learns about pony friendship. An hybrid of canon Thorax mixed with some Starlight.

The issue here is that:

- this negates the message of fighting against one's nature, 'group' or upbringing (education does play a massive part in how you perceive yourself and others) for what you feel is right

- Thorax's love for his hive and people (he was exiled) is simply lost

- this gives us a reformed changeling ruler in the end. As such, Chrysalis in turn becomes doubly redundant (ruler, reformation). Why keep her in the show? Better throw her in Tartarus...or keep her as a villain? She'd get old quite fast and would need some sort of closure, not the Team Rocket treatment. Not to mention she managed to see through Thorax's disguise. So I assume King Thorax would be able to do the same, and she'd soon be captured. Anyhow, Chrysalis would lose much impact as a villain as a result.

The messages during the season and finale would thus be completely different and we'd find ourselves with an even bigger case of redundancy in the characters.

As for Twilight! As you can see, she would still be left out of the picture - even more in fact... There was no need to even mention her in this whole alternate story. Besides...why take a changeling as a student? Their magic is completely different, they cannot be mentor and student. All she could teach is friendship, and it would have actually been up to Spike to achieve this, as he's the one who befriended Thorax, not Twilight. Not to mention we would also lose an opportunity to see Twilight's magic, including possible future episodes where they expand on magic.

Speaking of, we would lose Starlight's spell mixing/creation, as well as the message that even if you seem alike, you can be so different you may find it impossible to mingle with others. And that those shouldn't be left out, you should instead extend your hand (hoof?) and help them integrate, otherwise their lives could be ruined. Worse, they could resort to crimes! Had Starlight had a friend to support her, never would she have walked down the path she did. Thorax? Well he'd just incarnate the judging a book on its cover thing.

Aaaand holy cow have I written you the wall of text... I'm sorry, I'll stop here. Anyway, Thorax wouldn't be able to replace Starlight. Haven't talked about the personality, but it's clear theirs are different. You could have a "changeling Starlight", but there would still be a lot of losses, especially when it comes to Chrysalis, the lessons to be learned and magic.

Edited October 15, 2016 by Ninjaed

Goat-kun · October 15, 2016

Haha, fair enough. I think we can agree that writing even for a show for little girls can be far more daunting a task than it may appear at first glance. Finding new venues to explore like you said becomes harder and harder the more status quos you want to keep, but breaking a status quo is equally hard if not more.

That being said, I think Thorax wouldn't have been a better solution. First because of Hasbro's stance on this show's audience. Do read the thread about what Big Jim said if you haven't yet. Then Thorax is...lacking, as is. He's a character I rather enjoy, mind you. He felt like he didn't belong, escaped, attempted contact and thanks to Spike managed to change and even find a new way for his hive he never forgot about! For a show where almost every single male character is either secondary or an antagonist (with the 2 notable exceptions of Spike and Discord, I'd say), it's quite a big deal. But that's pretty much it. His personality is not outstanding as it is right now.

Anyways, for the episodes Starlight stars in to be Starless (lots of stars here), there would need to be alterations, both to the plot and his character. You suggest him being former evil right wing, exiled due to a failure (about babies, and I suppose a sun too). Then befriended by Spike, he learns about pony friendship. An hybrid of canon Thorax mixed with some Starlight.

The issue here is that:

- this negates the message of fighting against one's nature, 'group' or upbringing (education does play a massive part in how you perceive yourself and others) for what you feel is right

- Thorax's love for his hive and people (he was exiled) is simply lost

- this gives us a reformed changeling ruler in the end. As such, Chrysalis in turn becomes doubly redundant (ruler, reformation). Why keep her in the show? Better throw her in Tartarus...or keep her as a villain? She'd get old quite fast and would need some sort of closure, not the Team Rocket treatment. Not to mention she managed to see through Thorax's disguise. So I assume King Thorax would be able to do the same, and she'd soon be captured. Anyhow, Chrysalis would lose much impact as a villain as a result.

The messages during the season and finale would thus be completely different and we'd find ourselves with an even bigger case of redundancy in the characters.

As for Twilight! As you can see, she would still be left out of the picture - even more in fact... There was no need to even mention her in this whole alternate story. Besides...why take a changeling as a student? Their magic is completely different, they cannot be mentor and student. All she could teach is friendship, and it would have actually been up to Spike to achieve this, as he's the one who befriended Thorax, not Twilight. Not to mention we would also lose an opportunity to see Twilight's magic, including possible future episodes where they expand on magic.

Speaking of, we would lose Starlight's spell mixing/creation, as well as the message that even if you seem alike, you can be so different you may find it impossible to mingle with others. And that those shouldn't be left out, you should instead extend your hand (hoof?) and help them integrate, otherwise their lives could be ruined. Worse, they could resort to crimes! Had Starlight had a friend to support her, never would she have walked down the path she did. Thorax? Well he'd just incarnate the judging a book on its cover thing.

Aaaand holy cow have I written you the wall of text... I'm sorry, I'll stop here. Anyway, Thorax wouldn't be able to replace Starlight. Haven't talked about the personality, but it's clear theirs are different. You could have a "changeling Starlight", but there would still be a lot of losses, especially when it comes to Chrysalis, the lessons to be learned and magic.

Big Jim never stated that this show’s structure would inhibit such a character: male, monster, or otherwise. Of course, Thorax is a character that doesn’t fulfill the changeling fantasy. Making him a feared agent of the swarm who would go as far as to try to steal Flurry would change that. Of course, you can grant him that last moment hesitation that becomes his undoing and a gateway towards his redemption. Regret, confusion, his social disability, the importance of friends, changeling magic that can indeed manipulate hearts and minds, you can weave it all into such a story. It does not remove the fight against one’s nature, nor his love towards his people.

Chrysalis is a villain many don’t want to see reformed. She could form a new hive and stay as an evil counterpart to the new changelings. Let’s face it: the world is far more interesting with a few irredeemable villains around. And even if she becomes reformed, she can always take her place alongside Thorax.

Twilight wouldn’t suffer if she’d take Thorax because of the very peculiar dynamic a changeling would provide. She is a whacky scholar that would most definitely want to learn all about changelings while trying her best to explain friendship, so there’s that venue. Also, being an “evil monster" inexperienced in handling relationships would warrant more direct involvement of her and Spike. And given that changeling magic likes to screw with pony heads, you could easily reconstruct Starlight’s follies that would become more excusable in his hooves. To deceive and manipulate is their nature after all, and any such creature that is frightened of new things (like making friends) would likely retreat into familiar behavior that is considered moral by the old swarm.

After the finale, Thorax would become the new ruler of changelings and Twilight would have learned how to teach friendship. The arc would be completed and a new story could be told without any extra baggage to worry about.

P.S: I disagree about the status quo. It is quite easy to break it. One just needs the right tools.

LyricaDreamy · October 15, 2016

If she's really op , let her join an army and see if she can handle a sword.

Ninjaed · October 15, 2016

Big Jim never stated that this show’s structure would inhibit such a character: male, monster, or otherwise. Of course, Thorax is a character that doesn’t fulfill the changeling fantasy. Making him a feared agent of the swarm who would go as far as to try to steal Flurry would change that. Of course, you can grant him that last moment hesitation that becomes his undoing and a gateway towards his redemption. Regret, confusion, his social disability, the importance of friends, changeling magic that can indeed manipulate hearts and minds, you can weave it all into such a story. It does not remove the fight against one’s nature, nor his love towards his people.

Chrysalis is a villain many don’t want to see reformed. She could form a new hive and stay as an evil counterpart to the new changelings. Let’s face it: the world is far more interesting with a few irredeemable villains around. And even if she becomes reformed, she can always take her place alongside Thorax.

Twilight wouldn’t suffer if she’d take Thorax because of the very peculiar dynamic a changeling would provide. She is a whacky scholar that would most definitely want to learn all about changelings while trying her best to explain friendship, so there’s that venue. Also, being an “evil monster" inexperienced in handling relationships would warrant more direct involvement of her and Spike. And given that changeling magic likes to screw with pony heads, you could easily reconstruct Starlight’s follies that would become more excusable in his hooves. To deceive and manipulate is their nature after all, and any such creature that is frightened of new things (like making friends) would likely retreat into familiar behavior that is considered moral by the old swarm.

After the finale, Thorax would become the new ruler of changelings and Twilight would have learned how to teach friendship. The arc would be completed and a new story could be told without any extra baggage to worry about.

P.S: I disagree about the status quo. It is quite easy to break it. One just needs the right tools.

DISCLAIMER: have a good, long read :-P

He actually did. He said something like "Are you frustrated male characters don't have bigger a role? Well now you know what little girls feel when they're watching their favourite series".

Hmm I did imagine several scenarii involving Thorax, but with him being exiled and basically left to starve, I doubt he'd go all "I'll kidnap Flurry so that the hive can have me again". He can feed on his own. If he did attempt this, then what reason would Chrysalis have to exile him in the first place? Cementing a tragic backstory for one of her best and most loyal agents? It just doesn't add up! Unless Thorax moved against the hive, or what it stands for. As in, voicing that changelings could try making friends instead. But in that case, why would he kidnap Flurry? I cannot find a valid scenario where both would fit coherently, and thus it cannot maintain the fight against one's nature as well as his love for his people.

The valid one I can see would be him being exiled for voicing this opinion, then traveling to the Crystal Empire, dejected. In other words, almost a canon Thorax. His meeting with Spike would be the same afterwards.

Then come the lessons with Twilight. Sure, she'd just LOVE learning more about changelings! But how does this lead to her taking Thorax as her student? She can learn without this happening. The peculiar dynamic could indeed be interesting, but that's directly linked to his nature as a changeling, not to the character himself. I'll come back to it later.

The "evil monster" inexperienced in handling relationships spot has already been taken by Discord...although it can be explored in new ways! Which is part of the relationship Starlight and Twilight have. Thorax though? He wouldn't be an "evil monster", just a changeling trying to find a new way to live, and this doesn't have that many venues as he's already nice. Had he been "evil" after all, it'd bring us back to my point in the first paragraph, that Chrysalis wouldn't have exiled him, unless he was missing either 'love for his people' or 'moved agained the hive'.

Also, changeling magic has never been shown to screw with people's heads. It's simply shapeshifting, and it's what they do with it that can screw with people's heads, not the magic itself. No brainwashing involved here. What he could do is create some discord, but...there's already a well-established character for that. Heck, it's his name! And he's already done it. Several times. So not only doesn't it hold, it's also 100% redundant.

Also, once again, Twilight would still be out of the picture. She would be a teacher, yes. But your complaint was precisely that. That she was mostly just that this season, a teacher. Being upstaged by her pupil. This wouldn't change at all. The development Twilight could have gotten out of it thanks to Thorax being a changeling can still be achieved by him not being her pupil. And again, this wouldn't relate at all with his character but his nature as changeling, making him a very shallow character whose existence serves only to highlight Twilight or other elements pertaining to the lore or story. And what his character would have achieved for the show could have been achieved without him...

...simply thanks to Chrysalis. Here's a changeling who can reform, but with a personality of her own, quirks that can make interesting stories. Also, she'd be a much better choice to talk about changeling lore, knowing what most do not. If Starlight is an issue because her character overlaps with others and all stories could be said without her (which I don't agree with and am trying to prove... proving is hard), then Thorax in these scenarii would be far worse.

Now some wish Chrysalis never reform. Meaning she'd be staying a villain then, right? So I ask...what good would it bring to the show to have her remain as a villain? What reason would she have to? MLP has proven it can be interesting without always having to deal with villains, or without having the same villains reappearing time and time again. Said villains have also always, always served a purpose to the show:

- Nightmare Moon: introducing basic MLP lore and Twilight to the rest of the Mane 6

- Discord: questioning themselves and their element

- Chrysalis: introducing Cadance and a new species

- Sombra: introducing new lore with the Crystal Empire

- Tirek: Discord's true reformation and the castle, if I recall correctly

- Starlight: gaining a pupil

- Chrysalis²: changeling lore overhaul

Every single time has been a step forward. With those changes, season 5 would mostly lose this step, making it pointless - unless changed to introduce another pupil. Thorax just can't fit that role though, so either a previously introduced pony or...a new one. The previously encountered ponies can't fit all that well. Trixie or Moondancer would be the best fit. But Trixie would lose of her character, and Moondancer...is just waaay too similar to Twilight.

Hence the need for a new pony...a pony a bit reminiscent of pilot Twilight - ignorant of what friendship is all about, so as to discover it all and become more knowledgeable about it then anypony else.

As for Chrysalis remaining a villain, again. What good would it bring to the show? There's only so much one villain can do before ceasing to bring interesting ideas. Why would long-standing franchises introduce new villains otherwise? That's why in the end, 2 fates await her: reformation or banishment.

- If reformation, it's overlapping with Thorax and the story as a whole wouldn't be able to offer what it would have with Starlight (lots of messages lost, among others)

- If banishment, then Chrysalis would have simply been written out of the show, and Thorax would have completely taken over her role. Which would make the show less rich, instead of richer. And that's terrible.

I'll stop here, though I'd like to ask you two things. Can you write once again exactly what bothers you with Starlight? Just to make sure we are on the same page. And second thing I'd been wondering about, have you watched the season 5 finale and season 6 episodes (starring Starlight, to stay on topic) in light of all we've discussed?

For instance, I've noticed that season 5 finale has hints that, had Starlight had a friend to rely on, she wouldn't have gone down the wrong path (e.g. "friends can change the world you see" in the lyrics of the closing song). Season 6 premiere actually explicitly points it out, for both her and Sunburst.

PS: I completely agree it's easy to break a status quo. Breaking it in a right way is where it's getting hard.

Edit: added 2-3 points I couldn't before having to leave.

Edited October 15, 2016 by Ninjaed

BastementSparkle · October 15, 2016

Also, changeling magic has never been shown to screw with people's heads.

Just a bit of a note here, it's actually been shown that it can screw with people's heads. Chrysalis was using her magic to hypnotize and control Shining Armor in the Canterlot wedding 2-parter. Making his eyes go all green and googly, and making him follow along with her despite everything, even if that just meant he stood there by her side and looked kinda ridiculous with that expression on his face.

There were also the hypnotized bridesmaids, if I remember correctly.

Other than that, really good post.

Edited October 15, 2016 by BasementGlimmer

Ninjaed · October 15, 2016

Just a bit of a note here, it's actually been shown that it can screw with people's heads. Chrysalis was using her magic to hypnotize and control Shining Armor in the Canterlot wedding 2-parter. Making his eyes go all green and googly, and making him follow along with her despite everything, even if that just meant he stood there by her side and looked kinda ridiculous with that expression on his face.

There were also the hypnotized bridesmaids, if I remember correctly.

Other than that, really good post.

True, actually forgot about this... *facehoof*

But this is exclusive to Chrysalis, right? Or is it all changelings??

BastementSparkle · October 15, 2016

But this is exclusive to Chrysalis, right? Or is it all changelings??

As far as I'm aware, only Chrysalis uses her magic to hypnotize others in that episode. She's the only one seen doing so anyway. As for if other Changeling's can do it too, I have no idea. None of the others have done so on-screen, so it might be exclusive to her, it might not be.

Goat-kun · October 16, 2016

He actually did. He said something like "Are you frustrated male characters don't have bigger a role? Well now you know what little girls feel when they're watching their favourite series".

Spike, Discord, Big Mack, and Shining Armor all got some decent exposure. Thorax would be the same, and would never be able to overshadow our mane girls since his importance is the same as that of the aforementioned support characters. If Jimmy Boy cannot allow that, then he’s a doodle-doo. But if push really does come to shove, you can always change Thorax into a girl. I’d call her Tibia. Problem solved!

Hmm I did imagine several scenarii involving Thorax, but with him being exiled and basically left to starve, I doubt he'd go all "I'll kidnap Flurry so that the hive can have me again". He can feed on his own. If he did attempt this, then what reason would Chrysalis have to exile him in the first place? Cementing a tragic backstory for one of her best and most loyal agents? It just doesn't add up! Unless Thorax moved against the hive, or what it stands for. As in, voicing that changelings could try making friends instead. But in that case, why would he kidnap Flurry? I cannot find a valid scenario where both would fit coherently, and thus it cannot maintain the fight against one's nature as well as his love for his people.

The valid one I can see would be him being exiled for voicing this opinion, then traveling to the Crystal Empire, dejected. In other words, almost a canon Thorax. His meeting with Spike would be the same afterwards.

You got the order wrong. Let me weave a quick story about this here changeling and the Flurrygate debacle:

Chrysalis learns about Flurry and because she’s a conniving little bitch (who doesn’t like bananas), she sends her most trusted minion Thorax to infiltrate the Empire and substitute Flurry with a larvae which would store all that sweet, sweet baby love for her to devour.

He encounters Mane 6 and the changeling hunt begins, but the arctic storm and Flurry Heart’s magic bouts make things harder on them. In the end, Thorax almost succeeds, but something inside prevents him from going through with the queen’s plan. He is found by Spike who spots the changeling agent hesitating over the cradle, surrounded by incapacitated royal guards. He is forced to retreat and goes before his queen with empty hooves.

Chrysalis is furious. Sensing a change within her once capable minion, she exiles him to starve in the wastes. He drags himself back to the Empire to feed on the residual love and is discovered by Spike who has not forgotten the scene. He convinces Thorax that there are better ways to receive love other than stealing it from passersby. The rest is history.

Then come the lessons with Twilight. Sure, she'd just LOVE learning more about changelings! But how does this lead to her taking Thorax as her student? She can learn without this happening. The peculiar dynamic could indeed be interesting, but that's directly linked to his nature as a changeling, not to the character himself. I'll come back to it later.

The "evil monster" inexperienced in handling relationships spot has already been taken by Discord...although it can be explored in new ways! Which is part of the relationship Starlight and Twilight have. Thorax though? He wouldn't be an "evil monster", just a changeling trying to find a new way to live, and this doesn't have that many venues as he's already nice. Had he been "evil" after all, it'd bring us back to my point in the first paragraph, that Chrysalis wouldn't have exiled him, unless he was missing either 'love for his people' or 'moved agained the hive'.

Also, changeling magic has never been shown to screw with people's heads. It's simply shapeshifting, and it's what they do with it that can screw with people's heads, not the magic itself. No brainwashing involved here. What he could do is create some discord, but...there's already a well-established character for that. Heck, it's his name! And he's already done it. Several times. So not only doesn't it hold, it's also 100% redundant.

Also, once again, Twilight would still be out of the picture. She would be a teacher, yes. But your complaint was precisely that. That she was mostly just that this season, a teacher. Being upstaged by her pupil. This wouldn't change at all. The development Twilight could have gotten out of it thanks to Thorax being a changeling can still be achieved by him not being her pupil. And again, this wouldn't relate at all with his character but his nature as changeling, making him a very shallow character whose existence serves only to highlight Twilight or other elements pertaining to the lore or story. And what his character would have achieved for the show could have been achieved without him...

...simply thanks to Chrysalis. Here's a changeling who can reform, but with a personality of her own, quirks that can make interesting stories. Also, she'd be a much better choice to talk about changeling lore, knowing what most do not. If Starlight is an issue because her character overlaps with others and all stories could be said without her (which I don't agree with and am trying to prove... proving is hard), then Thorax in these scenarii would be far worse.

Now some wish Chrysalis never reform. Meaning she'd be staying a villain then, right? So I ask...what good would it bring to the show to have her remain as a villain? What reason would she have to? MLP has proven it can be interesting without always having to deal with villains, or without having the same villains reappearing time and time again. Said villains have also always, always served a purpose to the show:

- Nightmare Moon: introducing basic MLP lore and Twilight to the rest of the Mane 6

- Discord: questioning themselves and their element

- Chrysalis: introducing Cadance and a new species

- Sombra: introducing new lore with the Crystal Empire

- Tirek: Discord's true reformation and the castle, if I recall correctly

- Starlight: gaining a pupil

- Chrysalis²: changeling lore overhaul

Every single time has been a step forward. With those changes, season 5 would mostly lose this step, making it pointless - unless changed to introduce another pupil. Thorax just can't fit that role though, so either a previously introduced pony or...a new one. The previously encountered ponies can't fit all that well. Trixie or Moondancer would be the best fit. But Trixie would lose of her character, and Moondancer...is just waaay too similar to Twilight.

Hence the need for a new pony...a pony a bit reminiscent of pilot Twilight - ignorant of what friendship is all about, so as to discover it all and become more knowledgeable about it then anypony else.

As for Chrysalis remaining a villain, again. What good would it bring to the show? There's only so much one villain can do before ceasing to bring interesting ideas. Why would long-standing franchises introduce new villains otherwise? That's why in the end, 2 fates await her: reformation or banishment.

- If reformation, it's overlapping with Thorax and the story as a whole wouldn't be able to offer what it would have with Starlight (lots of messages lost, among others)

- If banishment, then Chrysalis would have simply been written out of the show, and Thorax would have completely taken over her role. Which would make the show less rich, instead of richer. And that's terrible.

First of all, you asked me how I would write this season without Starlight and I have done just that. It doesn’t mean that I agree with the path our glorious writers have chosen for Mane 6, Twilight especially. This is just the method I would use to salvage it. Would some things be different? Would some things be missing? Yes, but I still think this would be better.

You too need to understand that this is a show for children and as such needs to entertain first and do serious shit later. Changeling as a student is an entertaining novelty, and his character can be made interesting since this is now a completely different Thorax that has little to do with the mildly mannered drone who was found skulking around the Crystal Empire within the original work.

About ling magic: there is no lore bit that forbids other changelings from employing a few of Queen’s own tricks, and our Thorax here is one of the stronger ones. If it’s cool and believable, then the writers can use it.

As for Chrysalis: if you cannot find a good reason to reform her, then let her be until you find an awesome plot. It’s a legit strategy. If the show ends, then it ends. If it continues, you get to use her later on when you get an inspiration. It’s always good to have an old villain or two in reserve. Chrysalis has a personality that really works best when she’s bad. She’s good at being bad. No need to be in such a rush to change the Changeling Queen. She can serve her part of the changeling lore just fine while arrogantly monologueing at the heroes.

And why does Twilight need a pupil once she’s learned how to teach friendship? No other princess has one and there are many different plots you could create to further explore the whole princess thing that do not require a presence of such a character. That is one of my concerns with Starlight: the pupil arc can now drag on and on until even you, the Glimmer fans, could get tired of it. And after her studies are complete, Starlight can just skedaddle back to her village because we sure as Tartarus don’t need another alicorn princess or a powerful friendship-savvy unicorn in the group. Thorax does the “return to village” thing faster and more gracefully. Twilight taught him friendship stuff so he can now spread this knowledge among his people. Mission successful.

I'll stop here, though I'd like to ask you two things. Can you write once again exactly what bothers you with Starlight? Just to make sure we are on the same page. And second thing I'd been wondering about, have you watched the season 5 finale and season 6 episodes (starring Starlight, to stay on topic) in light of all we've discussed?

For instance, I've noticed that season 5 finale has hints that, had Starlight had a friend to rely on, she wouldn't have gone down the wrong path (e.g. "friends can change the world you see" in the lyrics of the closing song). Season 6 premiere actually explicitly points it out, for both her and Sunburst.

She fights with Twilight for every damn episode that needs a snarky pony mage, magical nerd, or just a powerful pony that was once upon a time friendless and awkward. She is bland, uninspired character whose job could be done by other ponies, her story goes nowhere once she stops being all “muh friendship”, and we haters are afraid the writers won’t choose to background her after she’s served her purpose but shall double-down on her as a main character that will elbow out the rest of the girls from all the awesome episodes and plot while not contributing anything to slice of life.

And I don’t really care about specific lessons and messages; I care about the show’s overall health. To me, a missing lesson is still better than a failed plot.

PS: I completely agree it's easy to break a status quo. Breaking it in a right way is where it's getting hard.

That is the secret to quo breaking. Someone should tell this to our glorious writers though, cause I’m not sure they’re in the know. Well, at least Jimmy says they got passion, so that’s a thing.

Ninjaed · October 17, 2016

<snip, let's save some space>

Yeah, they did get a lot of exposure this season. They're still giving the most important roles to females, but it's clear they don't necessarily like the issue discussed in that other thread, about gender role. Kudos to them for that. As for Tibia, let's go with that! Not like that's any worse than Thorax anyway.

IMO, while not devoid of interest, that story is ripe with issues. Chrysalis would've gone herself if she wanted it done, like in Canterlot. Unless she was handed the idiot ball, she wouldn't have exiled one of her own, risking information leak as well as creating some unease among her people. It would also contradict Chrysalis's deep feelings of unity with her hive. Thorax's betrayal stung her so much she vividly remembered his name and what he'd done. Not just "one drone betrayed the hive", but "Thorax betrayed the hive". This speaks volumes, as Thorax wasn't a special changeling. Also means he might be the first to ever defy her. So if she felt that intensely for a drone, imagine for someone as special as Tibia.

For the changeling magic yeah. I had forgotten about that part last time Chrysalis appeared, and some (all?) could have it as well, with varying degrees of proficiency.

As for entertainment purposes concerning Twilight's changeling student... It could be fresh and interesting, but...that's basically the same as Starlight, is it not? A student elbowing others away to get some screentime, I mean. So this doesn't solve the issue at hand. Also, who would be leading the changelings through this change? Not Chrysalis as she's not ready for reformation yet. So another changeling? Then it's back to square one.

Also, I actually find Chrysalis taking lessons from Starlight on friendship and whatnot far more entertaining! And not just from Starlight, but from the Mane 6 too! Discord has been given screentime with a few of them, and Chrysalis would be the same. In terms of number of episodes, it would likely equal that of a changeling student.

Speaking of Chrysalis, I've always been of the mind she still has some potential as a villain, but it's starting to be overtaken by her ever-growing potential as a redeemed villain. She's not ready for a reformation yet, though. I'm fairly sure the MLP staff has a clear view on what they want to tell with her and where to go with her character. But no need to rush, there are tons of other stories to be told as well.

In any case, the story would be different and the messages told as well, this we agree on. Tibia's story could be elaborated on in order to fit coherently, but this is beside the point by now, as we were trying to see if Starless episodes would have managed to tell a similar enough story. I mean, your whole issue is that she is elbowing others away from possible screentime and character development. The changes with Tibia though are far too great. Better or not, that's another thing.

On to your pupil concern! I'll be honest, it's one of mine as well. We are still a bit uncertain where they want to take the story with Starlight, so it could be this. However, despite this concern, I'm of the mind that regardless of their choice, she'll stay anyway as a secondary character at the very least, making appearances now and then just like Discord. If they ever do this, it will be to avoid her smothering the other main characters. They have the option to keep giving importance to her character or make her part of the support cast if need be.

BUT other princesses not having a pupil? Not entirely true. Celestia has Twilight and Cadance will have Flurry Heart in the future. So far, only Luna has no such thing. And yes, there are other plots possible to explore the princess thing, but there's this one as well. Better have the pupil as soon as possible. The longer the wait, the more she'd feel glued in awkwardly. And then, those other plots can be explored free of worry, as having a pupil doesn't prevent them in any way. If anything, it's offering even more venues.

And your last point, fighting with Twilight for those episodes. That's not entirely true. They both have similarities of course in terms of magic, but then... Twilight is proactive, Starlight is not. Twilight is optimistic and enthusiastic especially when it comes to studying and learning new things. Starlight is more detached and will only get ahead of herself when it come to magic or when she's unable to cope with a situation. Twilight is confident and knows what to do with her life, Starlight...not so much. And that means more opportunities to cement her own character, driving it home she's not a rehashed Twilight or a Sunset.

Speaking of, what about Sunset? Is she bland, uninspired and fighting with Twilight? She's a magical nerd, can be snarky, is powerful, Celestia's (former) student, used to be friendless and awkward, and basically the EQG equilvalent of the element of magic in EQG (before LoE at least). If you answer "no", then do ask yourself if this isn't a case of double standards. And if you think it's not, please let me read your thoughts. Starlight has often been compared to Sunset after all.

Back to Starlight. Her job can be done by other ponies - but we've just seen the story would have been different in a Starless universe. So clearly, this is wrong... She's bringing something to the table. Whether her story goes nowhere, I believe that was (and still is) a fear about MLP as a whole, with some saying "welp not much more they can tell now". But the staff brings new life every single season to keep it fresh. Meaning Starlight's story likely won't end just there nor will it go nowhere. For one, they can develop her character to make sure it doesn't and - by doing so - explore other sides to these ponies we all know. This is slice of life at its finest - dealing with life's everyday events and troubles.

In the end though, this is still hypothetical. So far, she hasn't really elbowed anything, as we've seen new sides to established characters. Especially Trixie, who got her first true friend. And I don't think the show's health has deteriorated this season. In fact, the plot thickens - while not losing sight of itself, so far. Sure, it can't please anyone, but this wouldn't be the first time in MLP.

Edited October 17, 2016 by Ninjaed

Goat-kun · October 18, 2016

Bag of plot

Ask around and they’ll tell you exactly what my stance of Sunset is.

You do realize you’re disputing the greater picture by pointing out minor plot holes in a story made for a show that is full of them? In case of our argument, it doesn’t matter if it’s truly canon as long as it can be made into canon because you placed me behind the writing pen. So in accord with this greater picture, Thorax can become a special changeling, a girl, or a totally different character. I repeat: Thorax from canon does not exist in this debate since he has been substituted by another changeling that does not in fact clash with the existing canon. All that remains is the old story framework which would lead to the finale. Moreover, I do think that I have sufficiently established that Thorax/Tibia would be fully capable of encompassing Starlight’s role of a pupil and friendship deprived ex-villain. The way I read it, your major problem with the changeling’s role in this version of season six is that he wouldn’t be completely like Starlight, which is an impossible task to begin with. At the same time, you are arguing that this particular changeling would not only take so much from Starlight’s plot, but would also do nothing to help remedy the lack of Mane 6 involvement in the grand scheme of this season caused by that very plot. Not only are you admitting that Starlight did nothing for Mane 6, but you then go on and claim that remaking this season with that in mind objectively changes everything to worse because of modified features that go against your own personal conviction. Thorax is a semi-important background character to begin with, and with a few changes here and there, Twilight and other heroines could easily get more exposure. And are you seriously trying to prove that Starlight is the one and only irreplaceable key to a season of a children’s cartoon by nitpicking a fan’s creation, cause I’m positive them little details and lesson changes wouldn’t daze many in the so-called target audience. Heck, I’d even wager that similar changes done by professional writers wouldn’t even daze most Bronies. What this would change for the better is the openness of the next season’s story that would no longer be held hostage by a single character that not only nullified the already minor importance of Mane 5 in action episodes but completely pushed them under the rug along with Twilight’s growth. This is not hypothetical since it did happen. The one hypothetical thing here is Starlight’s own growth post S06. Perhaps all this seems hypocritical given my stance on Mane 6, but then you’d be downplaying the emotional attachment of the audience to the heroes they’ve been following for such a long time, which is precisely why I’m against changing FIM so recklessly.

So let me get this clear: every character, every plot, and every lesson is expendable under right conditions. The level of expendability varies depending on the character or plot, and lessons don’t really have much importance nowadays. So how expendable do you think Starlight is, not to you, but to all the audience in comparison to Mane 6 and Spike. How expendable is Trixie compared to important background characters (Princesses, Discord, CMC, Apple Family)? How do you think would little girls and Bronies react to the slightly naughty and quite confused changeling exile? How did we react to Starlight and her “shortcomings”? You can also take note of H-Bro’s toys and direction while you’re at it.

Now allow me to cut through this in-show drivel and ask you directly: Are this character and her story truly worth so much to us all? Have they truly become so integral to this here product that they cannot be replaced or erased without out-of-the-show consequences that do not involve a couple of Bronies flipping their shit for a few weeks?

Ninjaed · October 18, 2016

Goat-kun's ramblings answering mine

Haha yes, I realise that I was nitpicking. I even admitted to this afterwards, saying it could be tweaked until it did fit coherently. I then tried to play along that scenario regardless. Concerning Thorax, I...do not see the need to repeat that Tibia is not the same as Thorax. I have considered this in my post and every time I wrote "Thorax", I was speaking of the canon one, not the hypothetical Tibia.

Anyway, Tibia would be able to be a friendship deprived ex-villain, but a pupil in the true sense, I'm not exactly convinced... Setting aside that being a pupil would mean a leaderless changeling kingdom, what would Tibia being a pupil bring? Not just for entertainment purposes, but for the story. In fact, we are not entirely sure yet what being her pupil entails exactly. (... more stuff about this that I ended up deleting, not all that relevant to our debate)

I don't have a problem with Tibia not being completely like Starlight, since - as you said - this would be impossible. But IF Starlight upstages others, then so would Tibia. I am not admitting Starlight having done so, merely using a simple logical process - starting from an hypothesis in order to reach a conclusion.

"IF" Starlight is snatching screentime away from the Mane 6, then let's try a different scenario without Starlight. Enter Tibia. Would a scenario with Tibia not take away screentime away from the Mane 6? Nope. So if it exists, the issue wouldn't be solved that way. This was my point.

As for whether the issue exists? Starlight had a major role in both the premiere and finale. However, the premiere starred the Mane 5 as supporting cast as well as every single princess, and it was told as 2 stories unfolding at the same time eventually crossing paths. The finale was used to give more development to reformed characters who'd been lacking it. And both were used to give Starlight the development she needs to cement her character post-reformation.

Other than that? No Second Prances gave exposure to both Twilight and Trixie, and was more about Trixie's troubles. A Hearth's Warming Tail wasn't about Starlight, but she did serve to introduce new lore - proof she can bring something to the show btw. The Times They Are A Changeling introduced Thorax and featured Spike as a major character. 2 non-speaking cameos...and finally Every Little Thing She Does. Aside from the premiere and finale, she has ONE SINGLE dedicated episode, no second prances being the only other one further cementing her character.

I truly fail to see where she's snagging the spotlight, premiere and finale being special as she'd just been introduced. And this is far from being surprising. Take a look at Discord. The very season after his (first) reformation, he is a major character in both the premiere and the finale - with his seeds gnawing at the Tree of Harmony and his alliance with Tirek. And he also has one episode dedicated to him to further cement his reformed character during that season. So...pushing them under the rug? Really?

Also, you're talking about the openness of the next season's story. How does removing a character and plot related to said character add any sort of openness? Tibia's expanded story would certainly not be able to achieve this, and as I pointed out, it would instead make Chrysalis's potential and importance dwindle. Introducing variety is what brings more openness, not the other way around.

I can completely understand the attachment to the heroes we've been following for a long time. I love our protagonists too. But does this truly mean that should a new one be introduced, they should be bashed to no end? Batman had Robin and the Joker, Harley Quinn. Those are 2 among a plethora of examples that have breathed new life into a show.

~~!!Warning!!~~ It HAS to be done well, though ~~!!Warning!!~~ And this is where I can agree with you. They need to be careful with how they use her character in the upcoming seasons. I have faith they will, but I can't guarantee anything, only pray that they do.

Finally, characters being expandable...well, yes. Every character can be written out. Every story can be changed. Starlight can be. Trixie as well. Derpy as well. The Cakes as well. Flurry Heart as well. Most of the Apple family as well. In fact, most familes. Discord as well. Spike as well. And...the Mane 6 as well, Twilight excluded of course. The story could have been told in another way.

How would the fandom react to them being written out is another thing, though. For all of the above, they wouldn't be all too happy. The true question is not "how expendable is this character" but "what can this character bring to the story". So far, Starlight can be expendable to more than one, as she's just been introduced.

What was the reaction to Starlight? I don't know, what was the reaction to alicorn Twilight and Sunset? If Sunset is anything to go by, erasing Starlight in a year or two would have massive repercutions. You're trying to erase Starlight of existence before she can do anything. She has barely begun to exist that you're willing to write her off.

But if she were to be written off now, I'm sure many would be reacting like this: "wait, why did they even introduce her then? what was the point? do they even know what they want to do with their story or what??"

PS: I'll try looking and asking around what your stance on Sunset is, you got me curious!

Edited October 18, 2016 by Ninjaed

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I don't think Starlight is quite as "OP" as some might think.

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