My Problem with Sunny Starscout

[Props Valroa 26,051]

@Cassiopeia

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The fact that unity was her idea, the fact that she is the one responsible for their unity and the one that  ultimately gave them back their magic. The fact that she believed in unity when nobody else did.

This seems to be a common trope in these sorts of genres. You have one hopeful person in a world where everyone else doesn't see it that way. Not that it's a bad thing, it's just not something I find to be unique in the grand scheme of things.
 

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She is just a character more adjacent to the entire philosophy of coexistence than any of the other characters, there was only one unicorn, the other earth pony was a male, and both the others were pegasi, not saying a male couldn't be an alicorn (but we've never seen it), and the only Canon of a pegasi becoming alicorn was with chaos magic syphoned from grogars bell into Cozy Glow... You mentioned Zipp deserving the "alicorn wings" when it would rather just be a magical alicorn horn, which would look kind of weird in comparison... Then you get to Izzy who just really isn't characteristic of an alicorn at all.

I am not sure why you are mentioning the others, but it is interesting to imagine Hitch becoming an alicorn. Another reason why I do not like Sunny is because she became an alicorn way too quickly. If they wanted to do that with her they should have done it over a longer period of time so it feels more justified. Sunny isn't a real alicorn, either. Her wings and horn appear when they need to, and I find the mechanic where their cutie marks glow and they are all powered up in moments of friendship to be something that just feels cliche. Sunny's personality to me, is ultimately hollow and bland. A cookie cutter of a shell to serve as the vessel for the show's plot. Sunny deserved better.

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There's a large list of reasons why Zipp isn't the mane character, but I think giving her the freedom to act as she is independently helps who she is, what she stands for, and the actual nature of her occupation, Zipp adamantly DOESNT WANT to be a princess? Remember?

I don't know why, maybe it's just an internal gut feeling about her character type that makes her more leadership material to me. 

[Last Line of Defense 97]

13 minutes ago, Props Valroa said:

@Cassiopeia

This seems to be a common trope in these sorts of genres. You have one hopeful person in a world where everyone else doesn't see it that way. Not that it's a bad thing, it's just not something I find to be unique in the grand scheme of things.
 

I am not sure why you are mentioning the others, but it is interesting to imagine Hitch becoming an alicorn. Another reason why I do not like Sunny is because she became an alicorn way too quickly. If they wanted to do that with her they should have done it over a longer period of time so it feels more justified. Sunny isn't a real alicorn, either. Her wings and horn appear when they need to, and I find the mechanic where their cutie marks glow and they are all powered up in moments of friendship to be something that just feels cliche. Sunny's personality to me, is ultimately hollow and bland. A cookie cutter of a shell to serve as the vessel for the show's plot. Sunny deserved better.

I don't know why, maybe it's just an internal gut feeling about her character type that makes her more leadership material to me. 

@Props Valroa

I agree Sunny deserved MUCH BETTER, hence my referencing her affinity toward rebellion, and how she is free spirited and is willing to do what her heart tells her is right, even if it causes trouble... This dynamic with Hitch being her sympathizer I greatly enjoy, as I feel like it puts an emphasis on their relationship and the hope he has in her, as he is sworn and bound to justice, but will make exceptions for Sunny because she is his best friend and very special to him. 

I mention the others because IF NOT Sunny, than who? And if I go on to explain why not Zipp, we have three other candidates and I was more or less explaining why Sunny was and is the most viable option.  

And your first statement I couldn't agree more. The way G.5 ANG starts out, IS THE REAL WORLD, for anyone with a brain and a pair of eyes that understands they're in their safe space for a reason. It's just these 3 races are all constructive, creative, innovative, friendly species that aren't beyond reason, and Sunny gives me that "ray of sunshine"  kind of hope that characters like Molly McGee give me. Like don't give up, good people, with good intentions, that make actual sacrifices and actually want to do the right thing, will prevail... But like I said that isn't the real world, the real world is split into lesser evils, and it's usually the most evil masquerading as the lesser

 

Edited June 11, 2023 by Cassiopeia

[Props Valroa 26,051]

@Cassiopeia

If not Sunny, then I would still say Zipp. She goes out and investigates things and uncovers truths before anyone else does. I think that truth is something of high paramount importance for any leader. It annoys me how Sunny in the show did not seem to pay attention to Zipp's statements at all and even during the finale she didn't have much to say as I thought she would. It is not really Sunny's fault, it is the poor writing of her character. I like the idea of a hopeful pony who wants to bring others together, but they executed it quite poorly. But if not Zipp, I would say if anyone was to bring others together it would have been Queen Haven, as the Queen, and Zipp as the one who would go out and uncover truths and give them to her mother so they can be acted upon. 

I do not like the world set up of G5. I would have preferred something completely new and not connected to G4, without modern technology. I like these sorts of medias as it's a way to escape from modern reality, and jump into something with a completely different line up. G5 is too similar to our world, as opposed to the world in G4. At least that's my view on that. 

[Last Line of Defense 97]

21 minutes ago, Props Valroa said:

@Cassiopeia

If not Sunny, then I would still say Zipp. She goes out and investigates things and uncovers truths before anyone else does. I think that truth is something of high paramount importance for any leader. It annoys me how Sunny in the show did not seem to pay attention to Zipp's statements at all and even during the finale she didn't have much to say as I thought she would. It is not really Sunny's fault, it is the poor writing of her character. I like the idea of a hopeful pony who wants to bring others together, but they executed it quite poorly. But if not Zipp, I would say if anyone was to bring others together it would have been Queen Haven, as the Queen, and Zipp as the one who would go out and uncover truths and give them to her mother so they can be acted upon. 

I do not like the world set up of G5. I would have preferred something completely new and not connected to G4, without modern technology. I like these sorts of medias as it's a way to escape from modern reality, and jump into something with a completely different line up. G5 is too similar to our world, as opposed to the world in G4. At least that's my view on that. 

@Props Valroa

I found that Twilight was very codependent on her friends opinions, and strengths, when it truthfully mattered most, and needed their conventional wisdom and life experiences to aid her on her journey, despite her high intellect and growing emotional intelligence. Zipp Is very independent, like Applejack let's say, see, I'm not comparing their personalities, more or less saying these are ponies, that don't need to take a leadership role in their entirety as their personalities aren't bound to being a voice of authority to others, but more or less a free thinker that makes their own decisions and gives constructive input to these leading voices. Zipp is very independent, if she had to be a leader with her talents I believe it would hold her back honestly. I think her worrying about her judgement and how it can influence others is more important than her worrying about how others judgements have to influence hers.  

But yes, I much preferred the elements of G.1 and G.4 in MLP in regards to setting and lore. I think there is a lot less limitation when we can explore those kind of fantasy aspects and aren't tied to this relatable 1st world realism that is supposed to sell to zoomers, as they are losing touch with what makes imagination important in these works of fiction.

Edited June 11, 2023 by Cassiopeia

[Landi 597]

I agree that Sunny's character is pretty bland. The way she is written, maintaining friendship and unity is practically her one personality trait, which can get boring really quickly. She accomplished much of her goal in the movie, and since then it seems like the writers are struggling to give her an arc. Also, her interest in learning more about Equestria was given to Zipp, making her character less interesting than it was in movie. Then, on top of all that, there's the alicorn thing. Whenever there is any sort of physical threat, she just turns into in alicorn and takes care of it with ease. Not only is this a boring way to solve these kinds of conflicts, it also often reduces the other main character to spectators. All of these things together are what make her character dull in my opinion. 

Some ways they could improve her character is by focusing more on her hobbies. She has been shown Cooking and Rollerskating, so the writers should focus some more on that, and make her stand out. Another way is by bringing back her interest in exploring Equestria. Lastly, the writers could use her alicorn powers more sparingly, allowing for her and her friends to overcome hurtles in clever ways. While these things may not perfect her character or anything like that, they could definitely improve her character from what it is now. 

[Evil Pink One 13,001]

Sunny was supposed to have a very impactful background.

Theyy are the family which everyone ridicule for their belief.

They shoulda made it real and focused upon but no.... So she became ehh.

A good hero needs to be grounded and relatable... She lost that.

 

[Tao 6,738]

At first I really did like Sunny in the movie but as the show has gone along, she well as Souls have said "become bland" .  This is kinda a lost, given how she could be used more in the storytelling and also like,  trying to find the "lost" history of Equestria.  Given all the research her father did and how that could be used to build on more things going on.    Even more with Zipp,  looking into the Alicorn history he might have found with Twilight.   Mostly I'm kinda shocked they have not even looked into the histories of the other pony cultures to see what they might now!    For me I feel like they are just now using Sunny as a kinda "front" if anything. 

[HedonismBot 218]

On 2023-06-11 at 6:23 PM, Landi said:

Some ways they could improve her character is by focusing more on her hobbies. She has been shown Cooking and Rollerskating, so the writers should focus some more on that, and make her stand out. Another way is by bringing back her interest in exploring Equestria.

One of the Chapter 4 episodes features her making a cooking video with Hitch - that was pretty good.

And yes - one would certainly expect her to have at least some interest in continuing her father's work with exploring Equestria and learning about the G4-era history (that was somehow lost to time despite the fact that the printing press was a fully mature technology back then). Especially with the amount of emphasis Hasbro put on G5 being a direct sequel.

[Felis Amafeles 341]

On 2023-06-11 at 2:49 AM, Props Valroa said:

Sunny Starscout herself does not seem particularly intelligent. 

She's really not particularly intelligent, maybe Hasbro just wanted to create a pony who wasn't very smart as the heroine

[Felis Amafeles 341]

On 2023-06-11 at 2:49 AM, Props Valroa said:

I will say this - Zipp would have made a far better leader than Sunny would have.

I'd also prefer to have Zipp as the leader if it were my choice.
She's smart and calm.
However, I also like Sunny.
Sunny acts from her conscience, using her own sense of goodness and friendship as a starting point for her actions.
That's why I like her.
 

[GrimWolf001 17]

I understand why you don't like sunny or the world of G5 in general.  But I think it's unfair to say she is "poorly" written. 

Sunny is consistent with a personality type from the Heptagram Matrix called "Energetic", as the name suggest they are very active, have a lot of energy, but they use this energy to push other to do tings outside their confort zone and to improve themselves. That's where here "Activism" comes from, and now that her "dream" has come true. she is focusing on her friends. Another consistent element of Sunny is her "resistance to change" . Now that she obtained "unity" she doesn't want to see the possibility that her dream is imperfect or could disappear. 

Also, she is not a leader yet, but she has the potential to be one... But do you know who are actually leaders? Hitch, Zipp and Pipp. It's important for Sunny to learn from them in order to become a leader herself. 

One more thing. Let's remember that her character is build on two premises: Helping others and give them hope. And other those premises she is doing really well. Do not underestimate the power of hope

[North Star 4,540]

the chars of G5 are easily its best aspect for me, but Sunny has the toughest time being likable in MYM and often in TYT too. It's a while since I watched them, but the early seasons do kinda make her out to be like GoT's Jon Snow except instead of "My Queen" "I don't want it" she talks about Unity and not wanting to be an alicorn. 

The Sunny of the movie, and the Sunny we see in later MYM is much more relatable. She's an extrovert who is happiest when her friends get along, and hates it when they don't. She is also stubborn and judgemental and gives herself a hard time when she doesn't make the best calls (which the movie wasn't brilliant at showing, but that is what the factory scene silliness and getting told off by Hitch was about).

Quite why this goes wrong in MYM, I'm not sure. One of the problems with a char like Sunny's is that she only works if you believe in the friendships... and MYM really forces the friends to live in the Brighthouse. Why for all things fluffy weren't they allowed to have a bit more individuality? I bet most people reading this, even if they haven't watched the show in pony's years can recite the homes all the Mane 6 lived in, and probably know what they look like too, yet MYM's wonderful chars don't get their own home for most of the show? And then there's the fact that she's an emotional problem-solver pony, but she's not really given any proper emotional conflicts to solve between her friends. The later season Sunny isn't perfect, but it does feel like she leads the ponies to victory against Opaline, which is exactly what her character needs. 

Anyhoof @Props Valroayou wrote that a year ago. Has your opinion of Sunny changed at all?

[Props Valroa 26,051]

@North Star

Not really. I feel like Sunny in TYT and MYM is rather boring. I find her to be completely lacking in terms of character development. In the Movie she was great, but in the show she just seems to have this bland cookie cutter personality. You also make a good point, I wish the ponies all lived in their own homes to allow for further individual development. Sunny is still my least favorite in the show, I am sorry to say. A lot of fans have good justifications for her, I would be willing to believe - but it doesn't change the fact that she doesn't resonate with me. 

[the_one78 25]

On 2023-06-10 at 8:49 PM, Props Valroa said:

I am aware that I will have an unpopular opinion on this one. I have had some time to think over G5 as a whole, and watch the newest episodes in Chapter 4 to see for myself - but I have come to the conclusion that Sunny Starscout is my least favorite character in G5. Mainly for the reason being, that her will and desire to bring ponies together is seemingly mentioned every other 5 seconds to the point where it reaches the point of annoyance. All the other characters seem to have more interaction and development than she does. Sunny Starscout herself does not seem particularly intelligent. 

I will say this - Zipp would have made a far better leader than Sunny would have. Zipp deserved the Alicorn wings more than Sunny. She is the heir to the throne, and has the most pull in terms of relations with others due to that fact. Her being an alicorn would be far representative of the Unity of the three tribes, as she is already in a leadership position - unlike Sunny, who has seemingly no other personality trait than "Let's make friends and get along!". Zipp is nuanced, highly perceptive and intelligent. The perfect traits for a leader.

I am aware that this is my own personal bias speaking here, and it is unlikely for me to change my mind on this (after seeing all of G5 thusfar and coming to this conclusion). But I am wondering, does anyone else feel the same? 

Based opinion, G5 is for the most part badly written i am only watching it to get possible information about the lore of G4

[Props Valroa 26,051]

11 minutes ago, the_one78 said:

Based opinion, G5 is for the most part badly written i am only watching it to get possible information about the lore of G4

You won't get much, there isn't much about it at all. I think if G5 tried to be more connected to G4 it would be a lot worse.

[Rafa Stary 698]

For me it's not necessarily a problem, but I do see Sunny as the personification of one of the things that make G5 not as good or interesting as G4 for me, and I think that affects all of her friends

I think everything is just too perfect, there isn't much going on, Sunny is the ultimate pony of joy and hope, she is rarely disappointed, or facing a conflict with her friends or herself, and I think everything being like flowers can be a pretty boring, the other characters are more interesting because they actually do have problems to deal with, Zipp, Pipp, specially Misty.

I remember seeing someine saying that the character arcs of the Mane Five was already completed in the 2021 Movie, and I can understand that opinion very well, not only the main cast had to solve a probkem between themselves but also with the society, Sunny truly shines in that movie.

Now I can only see that repeating in MyM chapter 1 and it ends there, watching Chapter 2 onwards and TyT made me feel like "Hey we are developing the others characters, but we need to focus on Sunny too", idk I felt they don't know much what to do with her, the episodes focused on the other 5 and the episodes where they help secondary characters to get over their problems are really nice (check out the TyT one about Dahlia for example), but it ends there, I also felt that they needed Opaline and "Evil" Misty around to make the main cast actually go though conflicts, like? In G4 the main cast went through many conflicts and chaos without a villain around.

Maybe I'm just asking too much? I don't know, I just think G5 is too relaxed and that something has to happen, this generation have to break its own rules, for me it's boring to see just smiles and adances everytime, make Sunny go through a character arc like Misty's and I'll say they are onto something.

 

[GrimWolf001 17]

1 hour ago, Rafa Stary said:

I think everything is just too perfect, there isn't much going on, Sunny is the ultimate pony of joy and hope, she is rarely disappointed, or facing a conflict with her friends or herself, and I think everything being like flowers can be a pretty boring, the other characters are more interesting because they actually do have problems to deal with, Zipp, Pipp, specially Misty.

Well that's not entirely true... However Sunny's conflicts are more internal than anything.  I mentioned before she has an Energetic Personality, most of the times she will be the enabler, the one who helps, inspires, or suggest solutions... However energetics have a special perk. You just have to insinuate that they are not in charge, or that they could do things differently and they become like beasts, and we have seen Sunny with that attitude. The whole "Kenbucky's Derby" arc starts because she was rejected from a Roller Derby team. In tell your tale, Izzy just had to suggest that  Sunny wouldn't be able to replicate their cookie recipes to turn cookie herself.  And she got into a conflict with Hitch just because he insinuates that her job wasn't as hard as his.  The other conflict we often see with Sunny is being unable to help others or believing that she will not be able to help others. Like in "Alicorn Problems"

But the reality is, yes, we haven't seen many Sunny centered episodes. 

[Iforgotmybrain 3,518]

I feel like Sunny's character still has a lot of potential with the whole self-doubt and trying to fit in as an alicorn thing. She could easily be this more emotional, passionate activist similar to the movies. Ali-conned was a great example of what I'd want. But outside of that episode and TYT's The Lone Alicorn episode they really haven't explored that aspect of her, which feels like a missed opportunity. Sunny Side Up was a really good Sunny episode as well, again kinda taps into her activist side, has conflict with Hitch and solves it. That's actually one of my favorite MYM episodes.

They also really haven't given the supposed protagonist the kinda treatment and focus you'd expect. Feels like they wanted to focus more on Zipp and Misty.

I guess we'll see what they continue to do with her character in season 2 of TYT. I'm sure one of the specials will end up focusing on her.

[GrimWolf001 17]

6 hours ago, Iforgotmybrain said:

They also really haven't given the supposed protagonist the kinda treatment and focus you'd expect. Feels like they wanted to focus more on Zipp and Misty.

That's because she isn't really the protagonist.  TYT and MYM is centered on character stories, so they shift protagonist from one episode to another. And the problem is we don't have that many episodes centered on Sunny. 

Instead of a protagonist I see her more like a catalyst. Someone who initiates the changes, rather than changing herself.