Does My Little Pony indoctrinate as well as entertain?

[silvadel 1,393]

I think My little ponies is the best cartoon influence I have ever seen in a show. It actually does promote harmony and I think the kids that watch it will come out better from the experience.

[PinkiePie Forever 65]

No, I think MLP shows the greys of the world instead of the black and white. Honestly, when I'm sad or in trouble i think of ponies. X_X Ponies always help me get through and will always, even if it is meant for 5 year olds. The main 6 have issues and their own troubles which help it not be so good vs. evil. I would like it if they didn't make it too much "Good vs. Evil"

[Starswirl the Trixie 975]

Growing up, I was taught that there are two types of people in society: good and evil.

 

I thank the OP for bringing up that point about Good vs Evil in society. It is a serious problem in American culture, and probably a key reason for our bipolar political field (children are taught that one side is good, the other evil, so if they like political party X then the other must be evil).

 

However, the biggest reason why I love MLP is because it violates this Good vs Evil trend. Just look at the characters:

 

Antagonists

Nightmare Moon: Perhaps a bit evil, but rebelling against the absolutist political despotism of Celestia. Not very evil.

Gilda: Is saddened to find that her old friend has, in many ways, replaced her. Reacts with anger and meanness. Jerkish, but with a good reason. Not evil.

Trixie: What exactly did she do wrong again? She told a false story about her life to entertain people, is somewhat arrogant (part of her arrogance is just as a stage act), and can be brusque and rude at times. However, she offered free entertainment to the town. Not evil.

Parasprites: A force of nature that need to feed. Not evil.

Jocks in "Sonic Rainboom": Jerks who realize the fault of their ways at the end. Not evil.

Bluebood: Jerk, nothing more. Not evil.

Discord: Pointed out many of the flaws and lies that Equestria is founded upon ("I don't turn ponies into stone.") His attempts at creating an entropic, chaotic world are no worse than Celestia effectively killing nature to create harmony. Not evil.

Flim Flam Brothers: What's wrong with them again? Not evil.

Iron Will: A businessman who should care more about his customers. Not evil.

Chrysalis: The leader of a foreign nation who attacked Equestria. She isn't your normal villain because she was fighting for her people at the expense of ponies. Not really evil.

 

Protagonists

Celestia: Rules a state founded on lies, imprisons her political opponents for her own gain. Remember: Luna isn't returned to power after she stops being Nightmare Moon. Oh, and she's a troll. Anti-hero.

Luna: Mandopony wrote a song about her entitled "I am no Hero". Fitting. Anti-hero.

Applejack: Has some virtues, certainly, especially loyalty. Isn't exactly honest, as seen in "Party of One". Is also a Luddite. Not a mane-stream hero, not really an anti-hero either.

Twilight: Greatly flawed. Claims to be an intellectual but does not question the nature of the Celestia's rule. Anti-hero.

(I don't want to do the rest of the mane six, sorry. Still, all are flawed, with some being anti-heroes like Rainbow Dash).

____

 

Good and Evil being over emphasized in MLP? No need to worry about it.

[pinkieshyrose 58]

Actually through that episode it seemed like they were reinforcing it i dont see it as that in other episodes especially the first nightmare moon was laled at first but she was basically a angry luna so she was bad and good through first called evil. not to menntion all the crazy viillan moments the mane six has made even fluttershy has..... through rain ow dash in my opinon has done the worst

 

I thank the OP for bringing up that point about Good vs Evil in society. It is a serious problem in American culture, and probably a key reason for our bipolar political field (children are taught that one side is good, the other evil, so if they like political party X then the other must be evil).

 

However, the biggest reason why I love MLP is because it violates this Good vs Evil trend. Just look at the characters:

 

Antagonists

Nightmare Moon: Perhaps a bit evil, but rebelling against the absolutist political despotism of Celestia. Not very evil.

Gilda: Is saddened to find that her old friend has, in many ways, replaced her. Reacts with anger and meanness. Jerkish, but with a good reason. Not evil.

Trixie: What exactly did she do wrong again? She told a false story about her life to entertain people, is somewhat arrogant (part of her arrogance is just as a stage act), and can be brusque and rude at times. However, she offered free entertainment to the town. Not evil.

Parasprites: A force of nature that need to feed. Not evil.

Jocks in "Sonic Rainboom": Jerks who realize the fault of their ways at the end. Not evil.

Bluebood: Jerk, nothing more. Not evil.

Discord: Pointed out many of the flaws and lies that Equestria is founded upon ("I don't turn ponies into stone.") His attempts at creating an entropic, chaotic world are no worse than Celestia effectively killing nature to create harmony. Not evil.

Flim Flam Brothers: What's wrong with them again? Not evil.

Iron Will: A businessman who should care more about his customers. Not evil.

Chrysalis: The leader of a foreign nation who attacked Equestria. She isn't your normal villain because she was fighting for her people at the expense of ponies. Not really evil.

 

Protagonists

Celestia: Rules a state founded on lies, imprisons her political opponents for her own gain. Remember: Luna isn't returned to power after she stops being Nightmare Moon. Oh, and she's a troll. Anti-hero.

Luna: Mandopony wrote a song about her entitled "I am no Hero". Fitting. Anti-hero.

Applejack: Has some virtues, certainly, especially loyalty. Isn't exactly honest, as seen in "Party of One". Is also a Luddite. Not a mane-stream hero, not really an anti-hero either.

Twilight: Greatly flawed. Claims to be an intellectual but does not question the nature of the Celestia's rule. Anti-hero.

(I don't want to do the rest of the mane six, sorry. Still, all are flawed, with some being anti-heroes like Rainbow Dash).

____

 

Good and Evil being over emphasized in MLP? No need to worry about it.

 

how is celestias state founded on lies? and what political opponet discord and nightmare moon wernt political oppnonenets more like miliatary threats...... Edited September 20, 2012 by pinkieshyrose

[FoxyCryptid 4,330]

I'd say not considering that theonly villains shown as truly evil were supernatural monsters. it also has to be accepted that a persons twisted view of their actions doesn't matter if there clearly taking evil actions. Noone but a specific breed of psychopath will admit their evil, even if their actions are driven by greed and selfishness they'll still say "I'm doing what I have to do to survive".

 

I think there IS more black and white then we think in the world, it's just that people refuse to accept that things can be black vs black or white vs white. It's also not always so apparent which side is which. I'll make up an example.

 

Let's say someone gets shot in cold blood by another man in their own home, seems pretty clear cut who's the victim. But, you look again and find out that the dead man is a serial killer that murdered the man's son. Looks pretty different now doesn't it?

 

Antagonists

Nightmare Moon: Perhaps a bit evil, but rebelling against the absolutist political despotism of Celestia. Not very evil.

Gilda: Is saddened to find that her old friend has, in many ways, replaced her. Reacts with anger and meanness. Jerkish, but with a good reason. Not evil.

Trixie: What exactly did she do wrong again? She told a false story about her life to entertain people, is somewhat arrogant (part of her arrogance is just as a stage act), and can be brusque and rude at times. However, she offered free entertainment to the town. Not evil.

Parasprites: A force of nature that need to feed. Not evil.

Jocks in "Sonic Rainboom": Jerks who realize the fault of their ways at the end. Not evil.

Bluebood: Jerk, nothing more. Not evil.

Discord: Pointed out many of the flaws and lies that Equestria is founded upon ("I don't turn ponies into stone.") His attempts at creating an entropic, chaotic world are no worse than Celestia effectively killing nature to create harmony. Not evil.

Flim Flam Brothers: What's wrong with them again? Not evil.

Iron Will: A businessman who should care more about his customers. Not evil.

Chrysalis: The leader of a foreign nation who attacked Equestria. She isn't your normal villain because she was fighting for her people at the expense of ponies. Not really evil.

 

Protagonists

Celestia: Rules a state founded on lies, imprisons her political opponents for her own gain. Remember: Luna isn't returned to power after she stops being Nightmare Moon. Oh, and she's a troll. Anti-hero.

Luna: Mandopony wrote a song about her entitled "I am no Hero". Fitting. Anti-hero.

Applejack: Has some virtues, certainly, especially loyalty. Isn't exactly honest, as seen in "Party of One". Is also a Luddite. Not a mane-stream hero, not really an anti-hero either.

Twilight: Greatly flawed. Claims to be an intellectual but does not question the nature of the Celestia's rule. Anti-hero.

(I don't want to do the rest of the mane six, sorry. Still, all are flawed, with some being anti-heroes like Rainbow Dash).

____

 

Good and Evil being over emphasized in MLP? No need to worry about it.

 

I'l start from the top.

 

Nightmare moons eternal night would've wiped the ponies out

 

Gilda was not mad because she was replaced, she was mad because RDs new friends were the kind of people she liked to bully, you forgot what she did to Fluttershy and Granny Smith

 

Trixie, she's never stated to be evil, same for Bluebood. Abet her ego put everyone in danger.

 

Same as above for he parasprites.

 

Again, same for jocks.

 

Discord, again, would've wiped out pony kind in the end.

 

Flim/Flam, dirty businessmen, not much better than evil. They were willing to throw the Apples on the street

 

Iron Will, probably would've beat the tar out of Fluttershy.

 

Chrysalis is a parasite, the changelings have to reason to take love by force when they could get it by being peaceful and helping ponies to earn it.

 

---------------------------------------------------------------

 

Celesta, no evidence for that.

 

Nightmare Moon, see above, that ,and she's still a "Super Powered Evil Side"

 

Luna, look up "Dark is Not Evil" on Tvtropes, she's still very much a hero

 

Applejack, you mean you've never lied to surprise someone? Also, I don't think you know what an Anti-Hero is.

 

Twilight, same as Applejack, you don't know what that word means. Also, Celestia raises the freakin sun, that's a pretty good reason to believe she's a rightful ruler.

Edited September 20, 2012 by Shoboni

[Starswirl the Trixie 975]

how is celestias state founded on lies? and what political opponet discord and nightmare moon wernt political oppnonenets more like miliatary threats......

 

The founding myth of Equestria, "Hearth's Warming Eve", is quite clearly counter-factual. Windigoes don't exist. If they did the temperature would drop precipitously when there was conflict in Equestria. There was no temperature drop in "A Canterlot Wedding" in which an entire war took place, so it's safe to say that Windigoes are a lie designed to encourage ponies to love and tolerate the other sub-species.

 

Nightmare Moon was both a military threat and a political opponent. And being a military threat doesn't make one evil either. Discord is a bit stranger; he wasn't trying to overthrow the government or lead an invasion of Equestria, but instead to completely change the metaphysics of the world. He wanted to rule Equestria in despotic anarchy, the opposite of Celestia's despotic harmony.

 

Not saying that despotic harmony is bad. It's actually a very nice place to live, and I'm not advocating against it. Despotism is magic.

 

I'd say not considering that theonly villains shown as truly evil were supernatural monsters. it also has to be accepted that a persons twisted view of their actions doesn't matter if there clearly taking evil actions. Noone but a specific breed of psychopath will admit their evil, even if their actions are driven by greed and selfishness they'll still say "I'm doing what I have to do to survive".

 

I think there IS more black and white then we think in the world, it's just that people refuse to accept that things can be black vs black or white vs white. It's also not always so apparent which side is which. I'll make up an example.

 

Let's say someone gets shot in cold blood by another man in their own home, seems pretty clear cut who's the victim. But, you look again and find out that the dead man is a serial killer that murdered the man's son. Looks pretty different now doesn't it?

 

 

 

I'l start from the top.

 

Nightmare moons eternal night would've wiped the ponies out

 

Gilda was not mad because she was replaced, she was mad because RDs new friends were the kind of people she liked to bully, you forgot what she did to Fluttershy and Granny Smith

 

Trixie, she's never stated to be evil, same for Bluebood. Abet her ego put everyone in danger.

 

Same as above for he parasprites.

 

Again, same for jocks.

 

Discord, again, would've wiped out pony kind in the end.

 

Flim/Flam, dirty businessmen, not much better than evil. They were willing to throw the Apples on the street

 

Iron Will, probably would've beat the tar out of Fluttershy.

 

Chrysalis is a parasite, the changelings have to reason to take love by force when they could get it by being peaceful and helping ponies to earn it.

 

---------------------------------------------------------------

 

Celesta, no evidence for that.

 

Nightmare Moon, see above, that ,and she's still a "Super Powered Evil Side"

 

Luna, look up "Dark is Not Evil" on Tvtropes, she's still very much a hero

 

Applejack, you mean you've never lied to surprise someone? Also, I don't think you know what an Anti-Hero is.

 

Twilight, same as Applejack, you don't know what that word means. Also, Celestia raises the freakin sun, that's a pretty good reason to believe she's a rightful ruler.

 

Not a forum argument ):

 

*Nightmare Moon- That doesn't make her the incarnation of evil. She was acting in her own self-interest, but was also acting against Celestia's government. I'd call some sort of well-intentioned extremist, as her cause could very well be just (lack of background information).

*Gilda. Good point. I upgrade her from "person who was acting like a jerk because she was having a bad day" to "jerk".

*Not this again. Trixie's ego is indirectly responsible for events that almost resulted in serious damage to the town. Fluttershy's love of animals is indirectly responsible for actually causing the destruction of the town (parasprites).

*Discord wouldn't have wiped out ponies. Where would his fun come from then?

*And the Apple family was willing to let the town potentially suffer a food shortage so that they could stay in business. They're luddites; just as in the industrial revolution on Earth, the Apples are, at the beginning of industrialization, seen as heroes, but centuries later would be seen as an obstacle to social progress.

*You must have a low opinion of Iron Will. He was willing to let some of his customers suffer for his own gain, nothing more can really be proven. He's actually quite docile ("Iron Will needs to pick up some groceries.")

*"Parasite" is a bit strong (the irony). And nation-states have no reason to take land by force when they could negotiate peacefully, but they still do it. Politics is odd.

 

*Celestia's state is founded on a noble lie, that is quite apparent. Whether than noble lie is a good thing or not is debatable.

Here it seems we have a different view on the definition of the word "anti-hero". I personally view it as a protagonist who strongly defies traditional concepts seen in a hero, and one who has some villainous qualities to them. Luna is seemingly an anti-hero; she has a very dark past of her war with Celestia, but is presently "good" and trying to stay that way. I suppose she hasn't been characterized enough to see. In addition, I think that the word "hero" is a bit different from "protagonist"; a protagonist can be villainous, a hero (when I use the term, everyone has their own definitions) means an archetypal, omnibenevolent hero.

 

Applejack's is a Luddite and a somewhat vocal "tribalist", at least to the degree that is allowed in Equestrian society. No one goes around screaming "Death to Unicorns!", but Applejack does argue that Pegasi and Unicorns should be prohibited from doing earth pony labor lest earth ponies be marginalized economically. Not necessarily bad, but the way she applies this to her personal life (ex. allowing Twilight to use magic to help her farm once but still wanting Unicorn magic to otherwise be banned from food production) is certainly dubious.

 

Twilight is an self-titled intellectual who does not question the status quo, a no-no in my opinion.

 

(I don't know why I get into forum wars and less why I don't just retreat upon signs of conflict. I usually don't like confrontation...)

Edited September 20, 2012 by Starswirl the Trixied

[FoxyCryptid 4,330]

Not a forum argument ):, (I don't know why I get into forum wars and less why I don't just retreat upon signs of conflict. I usually don't like confrontation...)

Were just having a friendly debate.

 

*Nightmare Moon- That doesn't make her the incarnation of evil. She was acting in her own self-interest, but was also acting against Celestia's government. I'd call some sort of well-intentioned extremist, as her cause could very well be just (lack of background information

The fact of the matter is, she had equal power and wanted more, it was greed. A well intentioned extremist would have thought they were doing something for the greater good, Luna was just jealous of her sister

 

 

*Gilda. Good point. I upgrade her from "person who was acting like a jerk because she was having a bad day" to "jerk".

*Shakes on it*

 

*Not this again. Trixie's ego is indirectly responsible for events that almost resulted in serious damage to the town. Fluttershy's love of animals is indirectly responsible for actually causing the destruction of the town (parasprites)

.

 

Fluttershy legitimately made a mistake, but I agree, I'd like to see Trixie make a "Heel Face Turn" and be upgraded to "Jerk With a Heart of Gold"

 

 

 

*Discord wouldn't have wiped out ponies. Where would his fun come from then?

He would 've eventually caused a change in reality they couldn't survive. He's really no better than Kronos from Highlander, he wanted to rule so he can use the world as his plaything, he's a sociopath. Don't forget he also Mind-Raped ponies into brainwashing.

 

 

*And the Apple family was willing to let the town potentially suffer a food shortage so that they could stay in business. They're luddites; just as in the industrial revolution on Earth, the Apples are, at the beginning of industrialization, seen as heroes, but centuries later would be seen as an obstacle to social progress.

No, the cider was a "recreational" consumable, like soda(or booze if you prefer). There was no shortage.

 

*You must have a low opinion of Iron Will. He was willing to let some of his customers suffer for his own gain, nothing more can really be proven. He's actually quite docile ("Iron Will needs to pick up some groceries.")

You forget how angry he was when he came to collect his debts.

 

*"Parasite" is a bit strong (the irony). And nation-states have no reason to take land by force when they could negotiate peacefully, but they still do it. Politics is odd.

Doesn't make it less wrong.

 

*Celestia's state is founded on a noble lie, that is quite apparent. Whether than noble lie is a good thing or not is debatable.

She never denied she and Luna took over by force, and again, look who they took it from.

 

Here it seems we have a different view on the definition of the word "anti-hero". I personally view it as a protagonist who strongly defies traditional concepts seen in a hero, and one who has some villainous qualities to them. Luna is seemingly an anti-hero; she has a very dark past of her war with Celestia, but is presently "good" and trying to stay that way. I suppose she hasn't been characterized enough to see. In addition, I think that the word "hero" is a bit different from "protagonist"; a protagonist can be villainous, a hero (when I use the term, everyone has their own definitions) means an archetypal, omnibenevolent hero.

An anti-hero is someone who has less moral restraints, but still clearly wants to fight for the good guys. The Punisher is a good example of a darker anti-hero. Luna would be more "The Atoner" since she wants to leave her darkness behind.

 

 

Applejack's is a Luddite and a somewhat vocal "tribalist", at least to the degree that is allowed in Equestrian society. No one goes around screaming "Death to Unicorns!", but Applejack does argue that Pegasi and Unicorns should be prohibited from doing earth pony labor lest earth ponies be marginalized economically. Not necessarily bad, but the way she applies this to her personal life (ex. allowing Twilight to use magic to help her farm once but still wanting Unicorn magic to otherwise be banned from food production) is certainly dubious.

She never says anything like that, just no "MAGIC". We've learned earth ponies have a certain connection with nature, and she only banned magic from planting. For all we know magic has some horrible effects on crops. There's not enough info to make that observation.

 

 

Twilight is an self-titled intellectual who does not question the status quo, a no-no in my opinion.

Again, this is a world where the status quo is proven by repeated observation. Also, Celestia is like a second mother to Twilight, so she has more right to judge her nature than we do.

Edited September 20, 2012 by Shoboni

[ceresbane 61]

Growing up, I was taught that there are two types of people in society: good and evil. The shows I watched as I matured reinforced this notion. Batman always defeated the evil villain bent on destroying Gotham, James Bond always triumphed over the megalomaniacal Russian enemy, and Mario always saved the Princess from the evil Bowser.

 

My Little Pony also contains strong themes of good and evil. As Twilight Sparkle proclaims upon seeing Chrysalis control the unwitting Shining Armor, "...she's evil!". How one becomes evil is never explained because that's just how they are and they must be stopped. Evil people can't be reasoned with, they just are bent on doing evil which they know is wrong.

 

 

This, however, is incompatible with reality.

 

 

In the real world, there are very few, if any, people who actually believe that they themselves are evil and purposefully act wrongly. Most people, even if their reasons are unjustified or misguided, are acting in a way which they genuinely believe is right for complicated reasons. Certainly, there are sociopaths and others who are unable to have empathy for other people; but even in these instances we should take care to understand them and to attempt to treat them.

 

 

Here, then, is my question: Does My Little Pony reinforce the notion of good and evil in a way that is harmful to society?

 

 

--------------------------

Note: I love My Little Pony and will, at the least, for a very long time. This trend is one throughout a lot of media aimed at children and teenagers; it isn't exclusive to MLP. I'm not taking aim at the show and, even if I disagree with one element of the show, I'm going to brony on for a long time /). I'm just bringing up the question for discussion here.

 

pretty much addressing this my thread "plotholes are you in denial"

 

but yeah, looking at the show, the ponies can be seriously heartless.

 

Like gilda ep. The heck happened to compassion. I mean if bronies were the handle the gilda thing. They would have talked to her about it. Not just stare her down and drive her out of town.

 

That was a dick move.

[FoxyCryptid 4,330]

 

Like gilda ep. The heck happened to compassion. I mean if bronies were the handle the gilda thing. They would have talked to her about it. Not just stare her down and drive her out of town.

 

That was a dick move.

 

They didn't run her out of town until she refused their attempts and playing nice. Pinkie even through her a party to try and loosen her up.

[ceresbane 61]

They didn't run her out of town until she refused their attempts and playing nice. Pinkie even through her a party to try and loosen her up.

 

they could have confronted her about it after her rage quit. RD could have gone after her and reasoned to have her come into the party in a fresh start.

 

Sure ppl would have talked down to her (dun care if its ponyvile. ppl will do that after that display). But she would make friends, if she opened up.

 

All she did wrong was wanting to monopolise on RD's time and she was irritated when she didn't get that

Edited September 20, 2012 by ceresbane

[FoxyCryptid 4,330]

they could have confronted her about it after her rage quit. RD could have gone after her and reasoned to have her come into the party in a fresh start.

 

Sure ppl would have talked down to her (dun care if its ponyvile. ppl will do that after that display). But she would make friends, if she opened up.

 

All she did wrong was wanting to monopolise on RD's time and she was irritated when she didn't get that

 

RD tried to, but she answered by bad-mouthing her friends, don't forget her bullying tendencies either. She was kinda being a jerk all around.

[ceresbane 61]

RD tried to, but she answered by bad-mouthing her friends, don't forget her bullying tendencies either. She was kinda being a jerk all around.

 

cause and effect. There would be a reason behind that and it could have been explored a lil. Which would be an excellent thing to do for a kids show.

 

I dunno it just seems wrong to just accept it outright without finding some sort of answer to it.

[FoxyCryptid 4,330]

cause and effect. There would be a reason behind that and it could have been explored a lil. Which would be an excellent thing to do for a kids show.

 

I dunno it just seems wrong to just accept it outright without finding some sort of answer to it.

 

But Gilda didn't seem like she was going to go for that. I think the lesson there was meant to be something along lines of "you can't please them all".

[ceresbane 61]

But Gilda didn't seem like she was going to go for that. I think the lesson there was meant to be something along lines of "you can't please them all".

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e0rixxTH0vs

 

I see your point

 

tho it just seems to come as yeah... dis gilda princess was like... a total bitch... lost case... she's not a true friend so we didn't really care for her. mane 6 ftw!

 

not really directly referring to the whole "pleasing them all" thing.but yeah. It alludes to it.

[FoxyCryptid 4,330]

http-~~-//www.youtube.com/watch?v=e0rixxTH0vs

 

tho it just seems to come as yeah... dis gilda princess was like... a total bitch... lost case... she's not a true friend so we didn't really care for her. mane 6 ftw!

 

This world unfortunately requires that sometimes, there's just people who will never learn to care about others. Sometimes we just have to let them go. It's sad, but true.

[TailsIsNotAlone 3,695]

Wow, I didn't even think of the stuff you guys are bringing up. Really interesting, though, especially the thing about Twilight supposedly being an intellectual but rarely questioning authority. She looks up to Celestia as an idol, but I'm glad I'm not alone here in my suspicions about that despotic, oft-absent princess. She's too perfect. I don't trust her.

 

One of the best things this show could possibly do is have Twilight grow up a little more and start to question her...and turn out to be right in doing so.

[ceresbane 61]

Wow, I didn't even think of the stuff you guys are bringing up. Really interesting, though, especially the thing about Twilight supposedly being an intellectual but rarely questioning authority. She looks up to Celestia as an idol, but I'm glad I'm not alone here in my suspicions about that despotic, oft-absent princess. She's too perfect. I don't trust her.

 

One of the best things this show could possibly do is have Twilight grow up a little more and start to question her...and turn out to be right in doing so.

 

fanfics have done it over and over and by the gods I'm beginning to doubt hasbro can et even close to the awesome I've read by fans.

[TailsIsNotAlone 3,695]

fanfics have done it over and over and by the gods I'm beginning to doubt hasbro can et even close to the awesome I've read by fans.

 

Oh, I can only imagine. It's the kind of thing I would write about too. But nobody can do the show like the show itself.

 

At any rate I hope we don't make it through the whole series with Celestia still being shown as perfect, 'cause I don't buy it.

Edited September 20, 2012 by TailsAlone