Who is stronger: Princess Luna or Princess Celestia?

[That Guy with the CMB 5,873]

Celestia has to be stronger. Let's not forget that she put Luna on the moon in the first place.

 

 

Or no, here's a better answer: Whoever the story calls for to be stronger. >.>

[Kyoshi Frost Wolf 41,604]

Nightmare Moon is indeed stronger than Celestia, but that is not Luna herself. I think Celestia is just naturally the more powerful sister, since the Sun itself is a far more powerful beast than the moon. That's actually kinda unfair. XD 

[hollow-shades 129]

As Princess Luna, the younger sister, Celestia has more power psychically (and problably magical) over her.

 

However, as Nightmare Moon, she has more power over Celestia, but really, Nightmare Moon =/= Princess Luna.

[Concerned Bystander 2,902]

 

 

Finally, the comics pretty much state NMM is a seperate being from her and the power boost gives is pretty massive as a normal unicorn in Rarity being possessed by NMM was able to beat a depowered Luna up easily.

 

 

 

That was NMM, not Luna herself. Kind of like somepony amplified by the Venom (or Carnage) Symbiote

 

 

 

Nightmare Moon is indeed stronger than Celestia, but that is not Luna herself.

 

If I may digress for just a moment.  As much as I love the comics (great stories, fantastic artwork) there is one thing I dislike about the whole Nightmare Rarity story arc.  I was slightly disappointed when they suggested that it was an external force that caused Luna to become Nightmare Moon.  I much prefer the way that it is portrayed in the show that the darkness came from within Luna herself.  It makes for a much more powerful story that everyone contains the capacity for evil rather than derogating the responsibility to a third party and thus absolving Luna of the responsibility for her actions.

 

Back on topic though, I agree with the idea that Celestia is more powerful than Luna, but that as Nightmare Moon, her hatred made her powerful and she was able to tap into the well of the 'dark side' and thus increase her powers greatly, to the point where she rivaled, and perhaps even surpassed Celestia in raw power, but still lacked Celestia's discipline and control.

[Kyoshi Frost Wolf 41,604]

If I may digress for just a moment.  As much as I love the comics (great stories, fantastic artwork) there is one thing I dislike about the whole Nightmare Rarity story arc.  I was slightly disappointed when they suggested that it was an external force that caused Luna to become Nightmare Moon.  I much prefer the way that it is portrayed in the show that the darkness came from within Luna herself.  It makes for a much more powerful story that everyone contains the capacity for evil rather than derogating the responsibility to a third party and thus absolving Luna of the responsibility for her actions.

In a way though, it actually was like this. It seems that the dark energy that took them over, it is fueled by chaotic feelings. Hatred, fear, jealousy, these things are most likely what makes one susceptible to that force. So Luna most likely had these feelings dwelling deep within her for a long time hence why she was taken over. 

 

I will admit that Rarity being affected in the comics was a bit out of nowhere though. 

[Concerned Bystander 2,902]

In a way though, it actually was like this. It seems that the dark energy that took them over, it is fueled by chaotic feelings. Hatred, fear, jealousy, these things are most likely what makes one susceptible to that force. So Luna most likely had these feelings dwelling deep within her for a long time hence why she was taken over. 

 

Obviously Luna's anger and jealousy were very much real, and made her susceptible to being taken over in the comic, that much is fair to say.  I still feel though that it diminishes the story a little, it just feels like a bit of a cop-out to me.  Fortunately though, the show never really took the comic story on board, and so we get to see Luna in DPDoMS struggling to shed the burden of a guilt that was genuinely her own instead of being the result of possession by a malevolent entity.

[Stella Star 69]

I personally believe Celestia is only stronger because she has more social power/dominance over Luna, also Luna is slightly younger. And since MLP: FIM was originally targeted and marketed at child viewers, the 'good' character (in this case Celestia) always has more power in the end and defeats/over powers the 'bad guy' (Luna). This is the cliche theme found in pretty much every childrens movie. Although Luna was only portrayed as the villain s1 to the first quarter of s2, Celestia still has more power! 

  :comeatus:

[Aurora Storm 83]

Celestia was able to banish Luna to the moon for a thousand years.....that's pretty telling, unless I'm missing something.

[Guest]

Luna because she's more awesome your age argument is invalid.

[SBaby 660]

To add with A.V, the journal of the two sisters pretty much stated Celestia knew more magic than Luna and was even near on par with starswirl. Also, the book noted Celestia loved to fly so it even implied Celestia is also the better flyer too.

 

Finally, the comics pretty much state NMM is a seperate being from her and the power boost gives is pretty massive as a normal unicorn in Rarity being possessed by NMM was able to beat a depowered Luna up easily.

 

Comics =/= Cartoon

 

As much as I would absolutely LOVE to see an on-screen death of any creature (not because I want something to die, but because I'd love to see the reaction it gets), as was portrayed in the comics, I seriously doubt Hasbro would allow that.  And given this is the case, we can't consider anything in the comics to be canon with the show, unless we see it in the show.

 

And even if it does happen, it could be reasoned that Rarity's Nightmare transformation is a separate persona from the original NMM, instead manifesting a separate personality for Rarity exclusively.

 

The other thing you need to understand, is these personas draw on existing potential that the ponies already have, meaning Luna's potential power is greater than Celestia's.  Hence why she mops the floor with Celestia until the Elements are used.

 

Also, as has been shown in TV shows and video games time and again, when these personas show up, they can often be mistaken for completely different beings, especially by ponies that don't see the transformation.  But having seen Luna transform INTO NMM (there was no being entering her body; this was an actual transformation), and the fact that she can now control the form (to some degree; a major shock could potentially revert her), we're given a pretty big indication that they are not separate beings, but instead one and the same.

Edited March 11, 2016 by SBaby

[Nuke87654 1,849]

Comics =/= Cartoon

 

As much as I would absolutely LOVE to see an on-screen death of any creature, as was portrayed in the comics, I seriously doubt Hasbro would allow that.  And given this is the case, we can't consider anything in the comics to be canon with the show, unless we see it in the show.

 

And even if it does happen, it could be reasoned that Rarity's Nightmare transformation is a separate persona from the original NMM, instead manifesting a separate personality for Rarity exclusively.

 

The other thing you need to understand, is these personas draw on existing potential that the ponies already have, meaning Luna's potential power is greater than Celestia's.  Hence why she mops the floor with Celestia until the Elements are used.

 

Also, as has been shown in TV shows and video games time and again, when these personas show up, they can often be mistaken for completely different beings, especially by ponies that don't see the transformation.  But having seen Luna transform INTO NMM (there was no being entering her body; this was an actual transformation), and the fact that she can now control the form (to some degree; a major shock could potentially revert her), is a pretty big indication that they are not separate beings, but instead one in the same.

 

 

https://mlpforums.com/uploads/monthly_01_2016/post-28184-0-73869900-1453968426_thumb.png

 

 

Sorry, but according to this tweet. Hasbro considers the comics canon unless the show directly contradicts it.

 

Also from the Nightmare Moon Villain wiki article:

 

 

Nightmare Rarity speaks as if she were the original Nightmare Moon, and speaks of Rarity as a separate character, hinting that Nightmare Moon is the manifestation of Luna's bitterness magnified by or merging with the Nightmare Forces, returned through the cycle of the new moon to possess Rarity.

 

 

and even from word of god from Lauren Faust to further support it:

 

 

There are several theories about Nightmare Moon and Luna which say they're not the same entity. This was confirmed by Lauren Faust herself

 

 

Thus all of them pretty much indicate several things:

 

A. Nightmare Moon is a separate entity from Luna as Nightmare Forces. She at best may have been shaped by Luna's jealousy and bitterness, but it is clear she is her own persona and does not need Luna anymore.

 

B. The comics are canon whether we like it or not. Only the show directly contradicting this can offset it.

 

C. Even Lauren Faust herself confirms that Nightmare Moon is a separate entity from Luna.

[Metemponychosis 1,261]

 

 

That should pretty much answer the question. While Luna required a complete transformation (according to lore, outside her own power) in order to stop Celestia (incapacitating her for around a minute), a non- powered up Celestia was able to one- shot a non powered up Luna, taking her down hard enough that she was still out of commission several minutes

 Isn't that a different individual? Or am I remembering something wrong? And what do you mean by "outside her own power"? Are you saying that Luna was possessed by Nightmare Moon?

 

 

 

Luna also struggles to raise the sun, while Celestia raised both celestial bodies on a daily basis, for at least a thousand years:

The sun actually lets Celestia raise it. (Princess Celestia and The Summer of Royal Waves) I don't know if anything of the sort is mentioned about Luna and the moon. To be fair, this is a bad argument. Celestia thanks the sun, and it sounds weird as hell to me that she's thanking something that is just hers to use, but I'm open to suggestions. This whole thing needs to be retconned in my opinion. It's inconsistent as hell.

 

 

 

And she admits that herself that Celestia was always the more scholarly one, working with Starswirl, while she only preferred to work on magic if it wasn't active:

Why is this relevant?

 

 

 

Long story short: Mentally, Celestia (low on magic power) >>>>NMM (Plus twenty on so beings whose job it is to manipulate minds, and where she probably picked up the talent from.)

Yet when Twilight sees the past, Nightmare Moon one-shots Celestia off the ceiling and renders her unconscious. Not to mention that in the alternate timeline Celestia just plain lost without the Elements of Harmony. That is literally the message. Not to mention that Nightmare Moon somehow can make plants grow without sunlight. That segment literally makes Celestia useless. (Really... I'm tired of complaining about the writing...)

 

 

 

Just lends more evidence to my idea that, in the show, Celestia wasn't really under any immeadiate threat from NMM; she was just baiting her so she could get the elements without her noticing. It's a pretty big coincidence that the Elements happened to be in the throne room, the place where Celestia started off:

This is a headcanon. You can't know what Celestia was or wasn't thinking. It's like people saying that Celestia had to throttle her power in her fight against Chrysalis or that she knew Twilight would find the final key and would ultimately defeat Tirek, in a way, because Discord betrayed them.

 

 

 

Fairly uninjured, as well; she actually seemed more concerned about Luna at that current point than herself.Not to mention, didn't even hesitate to go for elements, like it's what she'd been looking for all along.

To me she seems to be thinking "Fudging brat needs a timeout." She doesn't say a freaking word!

 

I want to agree with you, but I think that this needs to be thought over. 

[FluttershyKindness 217]

I think Princess luna more stronger then Princess celestia. 

Because she can transform to Nightmare moon *thats my reason 

[Rainbow Diamonds 282]

 

Luna looks more powerful than Celestia, since Celestia is fleeing.

If she hadn't the elements of harmony, she might have lost.

When taken over by the Nightmare Forces, I think the pony gets stronger. Rarity was even a threat to Princess Celestia and Princess Luna, and she even was able to harm Princess Luna. That would make Rarity more powerful than Princess Luna and Princess Celestia, which no brony except people who love Rarity so much that they exaggerate her would believe.

[SBaby 660]

Sorry, but according to this tweet. Hasbro considers the comics canon unless the show directly contradicts it.

 

I never said the comics weren't canon.  They are canon, in their own timeline.  There's a difference.  You can have something be canon while still existing as a separate timeline.  It's how we have Prime and AU settings in just about every superhero franchise in existence.  This is extremely common.  They even cross over sometimes.  So what the person who tweeted that said can be true, from a certain point of view.  And that's IF they were even responding to that question; I still have my doubts, because that post could easily have been them saying it's completely separate from the show, unless the cartoon states otherwise.

 

But that doesn't even matter.  Because, there are a number of things that took place in the comics that clearly have NOT happened in the show (and some that cannot happen anymore).  And not just an animal getting violently splattered against a wall in front of the CMCs (which can't happen now anyway, because they have their Cutie Marks and that scene presumably happened before they got them).  So because of this, the comics and show cannot possibly be the same timeline, like it or not.

Edited March 11, 2016 by SBaby

[Nuke87654 1,849]

I never said the comics weren't canon. They are canon, in their own timeline. There's a difference. You can have something be canon while still existing as a separate timeline. It's how we have Prime and AU settings in just about every superhero franchise in existence. This is extremely common. So what the person who tweeted that said can be true, from a certain point of view. And that's IF they were even responding to that question; I still have my doubts, because that post could easily have been them saying it's completely separate from the show, unless the cartoon states otherwise.

 

But that doesn't even matter. Because, there are a number of things that took place in the comics that clearly have NOT happened in the show (and some that cannot happen anymore). And not just an animal getting violently splattered against a wall in front of the CMCs (which can't possibly happen now anyway, because they have their Cutie Marks and that scene presumably happened before they got them). So because of this, the comics and show cannot be the same timeline, like it or not.

No as I'm pretty sure that is the case, especially when you see the question asked:

 

https://mlpforums.com/uploads/monthly_01_2016/post-28184-0-49205200-1453968417_thumb.png

 

Have you heard of the Star Wars EU was before george sold it to Disney and had it retconned? The EU was considered 'canon b'. Meaning so long as it doesn't contradict 'canon a', in this case being the star wars movies and a few select chosen stuff via George's approval like the force unleashed, it was canon and treated as part of what happened in the star wars verse. If the presented information does contradict, only the part that goes in conflict with canon a story will be retconned and the tale will be allowed to proceed only if it can sustain itself without that part. And if Canon b adds something to lore that canon a is ambigious on and does not definitly contradict it, than it is part of canon lore.

 

That's what the comics and other source materials outside the show are, canon b stuff to the show's canon a. Thus until we see direct and without question proof that nightmare moon is not a seperate being to Luna, it is canon to the show and FIM.

Edited March 11, 2016 by Nuke87654

[Fractured 2,684]

This is a headcanon. You can't know what Celestia was or wasn't thinking. It's like people saying that Celestia had to throttle her power in her fight against Chrysalis or that she knew Twilight would find the final key and would ultimately defeat Tirek, in a way, because Discord betrayed them.

 

 

 

To me she seems to be thinking "Fudging brat needs a timeout." She doesn't say a freaking word!

 

I want to agree with you, but I think that this needs to be thought over. 

 

I should probably start off by mentioning that i'm fully aware this an unprovable headcanon, hence "lending more evidence." I'm not really offering it up as a point, but rather just talking about my own thoughts. As for everything else, though...

 

 Isn't that a different individual? Or am I remembering something wrong? And what do you mean by "outside her own power"? Are you saying that Luna was possessed by Nightmare Moon?

I'll address these both. Canon (ala comics)  is that, due to Luna's own jealousy and hatred, she gave herself over to the Nightmare forces, a group of beings who feed on that energy, and give the possesse power in exchange. Said forces aren't really just restricted to Luna; over the course of the story, they also manage to take over Rarity, giving rise to Nightmare Rarity.

 

 

 

 

 

The sun actually lets Celestia raise it. (Princess Celestia and The Summer of Royal Waves) I don't know if anything of the sort is mentioned about Luna and the moon. To be fair, this is a bad argument. Celestia thanks the sun, and it sounds weird as hell to me that she's thanking something that is just hers to use, but I'm open to suggestions. This whole thing needs to be retconned in my opinion. It's inconsistent as hell.

Even if that was the case, it still requires massive amounts of energy in order to move it. It's pretty clear just by looking at the show itself that the sun and moon have no ability to move themselves anywhere without the help of someone manipulating them, putting all the work on Celestia and Luna, or before them, the unicorn tribe. As far as lore goes, I rather like it, personally; it's mysterious, and it shows a very high level of respect for Celestia, that she's willing to thank something even when she has no need to. (And, yes, Luna does go through something similar). 

 

And, on an additional note, Twilight Sparkle and Discord have both moved the sun, and with way less exertion than Luna underwent, making it legitimately an issue of magical power, and not special permissions:

 

 

 

 

 

Why is this relevant?

Because it shows that Celestia, not only being an avid reader, scholar, and teacher, is much more interested in magic overall than her sister, which is a measure of power. It doesn't exactly pertain to their magical limits, but if Celestia were to ever come at Luna in a serious fashion, that amount of versatility on tap would give her a pretty large edge, even if the power was lacking (And i'm arguing that it's very plainly not.)

 

Yet when Twilight sees the past, Nightmare Moon one-shots Celestia off the ceiling and renders her unconscious. Not to mention that in the alternate timeline Celestia just plain lost without the Elements of Harmony. That is literally the message. Not to mention that Nightmare Moon somehow can make plants grow without sunlight. That segment literally makes Celestia useless. (Really... I'm tired of complaining about the writing...)

I pretty much already gave my spheel on that, and while it is headcanon that Celestia was just baiting NMM to the room with the elements, it's pretty obvious just from watching that Celestia wasn't critically injured (No bruising, no labored walking, no panting, could still fly, etc.). As for the alternate timeline, we really don't have enough information to make it solid that NMM beat Celestia through raw force, especially considering that in the main timeline, she absolutely refused to throw even a single shot at her, and that, in the first and second episodes, she was also beaten, absent any of the things we would probably associate with a grand mal alicorn battle (explosions, high level spells, screaming, running, etc.). Not to mention, Luna and Nightmare Moon are separate entities, so what one did can't legitimately apply to the other.

[SBaby 660]

That's what the comics and other source materials outside the show are, canon b stuff to the show's canon a. Thus until we see direct and without question proof that nightmare moon is not a seperate being to Luna, it is canon to the show and FIM.

 

 

Unfortunately, it's the other way around.  Unless it happens in the show, it isn't canon to the show.  If it was canon until it didn't happen, every headcanon in existence would be considered canon, because they haven't been disproven yet.  I'm pretty sure you know what kind of problems would build from that.

Edited March 11, 2016 by SBaby

[Nuke87654 1,849]

Unfortunately, it's the other way around.  Unless it happens in the show, it isn't canon to the show.  If it was canon until it didn't happen, every headcanon in existence would be considered canon, because they haven't been disproven yet.  I'm pretty sure you know what kind of problems would build from that.

 

Do I have to use this of what the show pulled from the comics to validate my claim:

 

 

The green pony with a heart and the blue pony with a bat and pencil cutie mark are Katie Cook and Andy Price's pony oc's respectively.

 

 

 

The same two ponies appear here in Princess Spike.

 

This is a definite wink to the MLP comics from DHX in their show.

 

Other than that, I have shown plenty of evidences to showcase my point that the comics are part of FIM's lore and story, enough to justify my belief that my case is the correct one here.

[SBaby 660]

Do I have to use this of what the show pulled from the comics to validate my claim:

 

 

The green pony with a heart and the blue pony with a bat and pencil cutie mark are Katie Cook and Andy Price's pony oc's respectively.

 

 

 

The same two ponies appear here in Princess Spike.

 

This is a definite wink to the MLP comics from DHX in their show.

 

Other than that, I have shown plenty of evidences to showcase my point that the comics are part of FIM's lore and story, enough to justify my belief that my case is the correct one here.

 

Ok, so the show pulled a couple things from the comics.  So what?  Shows with or based on comic series' do this all the time.  The X-Men and Justice League cartoons did this on a regular basis, even more frequently than FiM does, and they're still considered separate universes from their comic counterparts.  You can't honestly consider these two mediums to be in the same timeline, especially when we clearly have events that not only haven't happened in one or both, but can't possibly happen in both.

Edited March 11, 2016 by SBaby

[Nuke87654 1,849]

Ok, so the show pulled a couple things from the comics.  So what?  Shows with or based on comic series' do this all the time.  The X-Men and Justice League cartoons did this on a regular basis, even more frequently than FiM does, and they're still considered separate universes from their comic counterparts.  You can't honestly consider these two mediums to be in the same timeline, especially when we clearly have events that not only haven't happened in one or both, but can't possibly happen in both.

Whether you want to continue to refuse accepting, the comics are canon to FIM and this has been vouched by word of god from Andy Price who clearly stated to be the case. Just because the show makes no mention of a comic's story doesn't mean it didn't happened in FIM's lore as Hasbro clearly put the comics as 'b canon' to the show's 'a canon.'

[SBaby 660]

Whether you want to continue to refuse accepting, the comics are canon to FIM and this has been vouched by word of god from Andy Price who clearly stated to be the case. Just because the show makes no mention of a comic's story doesn't mean it didn't happened in FIM's lore as Hasbro clearly put the comics as 'b canon' to the show's 'a canon.'

Something as big as the CMCs being captured and Unicorns getting massive power boosts during a comet isn't an event that is so callously swept under the rug, especially when Equestria is threatened by an evil force during this. If something like that had happened, everyone would know about it, and we would have seen an image of it in MMC, along with all the other images there were. But we haven't, because it never happened in the cartoon. You don't create an event that huge which centers around the mane six, and then have it happen off-screen.

 

 

Also, I really recommend you take what staff members say with a grain of salt, because there have been times in the past where one staff member said one thing, only to be contradicted by another (we recently had this happen with Season 6's release date). Not to mention, Andy Price works on the comics, not the cartoon. So him saying anything related to the show is hardly what I would call 'word of god'. It might have been that at one point he intended for the comics to follow the show, but this is an impossibility, because of the difference in the amount of time it takes to make an issue versus how long it takes to make an episode (about a month per issue of a comic, and two weeks per 20-minute episode of a cartoon, on average).

 

Also, and I wasn't going to bring this up because I know it'll potentially make people angry, but this is a fact of life. Lauren Faust does NOT work on FiM anymore. She hasn't been involved since Season 3, and we're going on Season 6. So using her name when describing anything related to the show just unfortunately doesn't add weight to any arguments. I don't like this anymore than anyone else does, but this is reality.

 

 

And so again, we're back to the original point I made. If things that happen in one medium don't happen in the other (or can't happen), then the mediums can't take place in the same universe. And honestly, I don't know why you're so against this, because this is a basic fundamental concept that exists in almost every franchise that has comics. It's been like this for decades, long before we even knew that we would one day be watching a cartoon about talking ponies.

 

The only thing that has yet to happen is for both universes to cross over (admittedly, that would be pretty cool).

Edited March 11, 2016 by SBaby

[Castle Bleck 19,375]

Do I have to use this of what the show pulled from the comics to validate my claim:

 

 

The green pony with a heart and the blue pony with a bat and pencil cutie mark are Katie Cook and Andy Price's pony oc's respectively.

 

 

 

The same two ponies appear here in Princess Spike.

 

This is a definite wink to the MLP comics from DHX in their show.

 

Other than that, I have shown plenty of evidences to showcase my point that the comics are part of FIM's lore and story, enough to justify my belief that my case is the correct one here.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0yobZojRHg

 

And on a different note, it's still possible that Celestia initially struggled to move the moon (like how Luna struggled to move the sun during the first several days or so in Reflections) before finally building up enough tolerance for it -- she had 1,000 years to adjust to it, after all.

Edited March 11, 2016 by A.V.

[Nuke87654 1,849]

Something as big as the CMCs being captured and Unicorns getting massive power boosts during a comet isn't an event that is so callously swept under the rug, especially when Equestria is threatened by an evil force during this.  If something like that had happened, everyone would know about it, and we would have seen an image of it in MMC, along with all the other images there were.  But we haven't, because it never happened in the cartoon.  You don't create an event that huge which centers around the mane six, and then have it happen off-screen.

 

 

Also, I really recommend you take what staff members say with a grain of salt, because there have been times in the past where one staff member said one thing, only to be contradicted by another (we recently had this happen with Season 6's release date).  Not to mention, Andy Price works on the comics, not the cartoon.  So him saying anything related to the show is hardly what I would call 'word of god'.  It might have been that at one point he intended for the comics to follow the show, but this is an impossibility, because of the difference in the amount of time it takes to make an issue versus how long it takes to make an episode (about a month per issue of a comic, and two weeks per 20-minute episode of a cartoon, on average).

 

Also, and I wasn't going to bring this up because I know it'll potentially make people angry, but this is a fact of life.  Lauren Faust does NOT work on FiM anymore.  She hasn't been involved since Season 3, and we're going on Season 6.  So using her name when describing anything related to the show just unfortunately doesn't add weight to any arguments.  I don't like this anymore than anyone else does, but this is reality.

 

 

And so again, we're back to the original point I made.  If things that happen in one medium don't happen in the other (or can't happen), then the mediums can't take place in the same universe.  And honestly, I don't know why you're so against this, because this is a basic fundamental concept that exists in almost every franchise that has comics.  It's been like this for decades, long before we even knew that we would one day be watching a cartoon about talking ponies.

Equestria Girls is part of FIM's show lore. It is however kept seperate from the show's events as one thing the show, eqg, and comics are in their self contained part of FIM where it is all canon but neither of them have to make a direct reference to each other. This is done to ensure that anyone who disagrees with a comics or eqg story won't have to be concerned about it being referenced or shown in the show. The only rule they share is that the show's canon holds priority over all contradictions.

 

Read the part where he says 'according to Hasbro'. This isn't some vague guess, ambigious answer, or an attempt to misdirect the viewer on what major event is going to happen on the show, this was something a major comic book artist was told by DHX's very bosses for the show's production and other assets. Thus it can be attributed to that DHX also recognizes the comics as canon but is under no obligation to pay heed of their stories on their show.

 

I don't mind you saying that Lauren is no longer working on FIM. However, it's point was for me to show that the creator herself envisioned Nightmare Moon as a seperate entity from Luna. Because the show had made no attempts to discredit and the comics had in fact been granted to explain Nightmare Moon and remove the mystery of it in the Nightmare Rarity arc, her word is still a valid claim to use.

 

Again, you're missing the explanation that the show and comics along with other media sources officially licensed by Hasbro operate in their own self contained parts to the same verse in FIM with the only rule being that any contradictions made against the show's lore will have the tv program's own take override it.

 

As I've stated, I've spoken with my evidences for my case that clearly support my belief that the comics are canon and are a seperate part of FIM's lore that the show is spearheading the narration of the series.

[Metemponychosis 1,261]

 

 

I should probably start off by mentioning that i'm fully aware this an unprovable headcanon, hence "lending more evidence." I'm not really offering it up as a point, but rather just talking about my own thoughts. As for everything else, though...

I have no problem with that. In my headcanon, Celestia would floor anyone that messed with her under normal circumstances. The problem is that this thread is about the canon characters. No one cares about what I think.

 

 

 

I'll address these both. Canon (ala comics)  is that, due to Luna's own jealousy and hatred, she gave herself over to the Nightmare forces, a group of beings who feed on that energy, and give the possesse power in exchange. Said forces aren't really just restricted to Luna; over the course of the story, they also manage to take over Rarity, giving rise to Nightmare Rarity.

In the cartoon, "Do Princesses Dream of Magical Sheep",  Luna speaks of herself as Nightmare Moon and owns the things that happened as her own doing. I see no reason for her to do this if she wasn't in control.

 

 

 

Even if that was the case, it still requires massive amounts of energy in order to move it. It's pretty clear just by looking at the show itself that the sun and moon have no ability to move themselves anywhere without the help of someone manipulating them, putting all the work on Celestia and Luna, or before them, the unicorn tribe. As far as lore goes, I rather like it, personally; it's mysterious, and it shows a very high level of respect for Celestia, that she's willing to thank something even when she has no need to. (And, yes, Luna does go through something similar).

You can't know how much energy it takes to move either the sun or the moon. And I'm not convinced that the sun and the moon can't move on their own. Is Celestia moving the sun little by little as the day progresses? Does it require only an initial push to start it's path in the sky? Or does she fling it across the sky with such perfection that it keeps an orbit or whatever? Yes, it's mysterious, but it doesn't help in a discussion about which of the two sisters is more powerful. And how do you know that she doesn't need to thank it? Do you thank the light switch very often? Believe me, I much rather believe that Celestia could floor Luna if they were to fight or somehow test their magic might one against the other and that Celestia effectively owns the sun and ponies better be thankful that she is nice enough to move it around for them (most likely because she likes them...). But I can't say that based on canon, even if it "feels right".

 

 

 

And, on an additional note, Twilight Sparkle and Discord have both moved the sun, and with way less exertion than Luna underwent, making it legitimately an issue of magical power, and not special permissions:

We don't know why is Luna struggling with it in that comic. We don't know if it takes Celestia less effort because the sun is letting her do it, if it's because she's magically stronger or even if because she simply has more experience at it. If that was true, what happened during Nightmare Moon? Why didn't Celestia just move the moon out of the way and be done with it? We don't know if it was easy or hard for Celestia to move Luna's moon every night. Discord... I don't know. He operates on the "Rule of Funny". Things happen because they are funny. In one episode Celestia is powerless and in the next she casts a spell to keep him from messing with the Elements. He's a wildcard that I just can't factor in.

 

 

 

Because it shows that Celestia, not only being an avid reader, scholar, and teacher, is much more interested in magic overall than her sister, which is a measure of power. It doesn't exactly pertain to their magical limits, but if Celestia were to ever come at Luna in a serious fashion, that amount of versatility on tap would give her a pretty large edge, even if the power was lacking (And i'm arguing that it's very plainly not.)

Unless you can prove that Nightmare Moon is a different entity, all this is saying is that with less education and training Luna manages to beat Celestia as Nightmare Moon. (Not really, though, as will admit later.)

 

 

 

I pretty much already gave my spheel on that, and while it is headcanon that Celestia was just baiting NMM to the room with the elements, it's pretty obvious just from watching that Celestia wasn't critically injured (No bruising, no labored walking, no panting, could still fly, etc.). As for the alternate timeline, we really don't have enough information to make it solid that NMM beat Celestia through raw force, especially considering that in the main timeline, she absolutely refused to throw even a single shot at her, and that, in the first and second episodes, she was also beaten, absent any of the things we would probably associate with a grand mal alicorn battle (explosions, high level spells, screaming, running, etc.). Not to mention, Luna and Nightmare Moon are separate entities, so what one did can't legitimately apply to the other.

It's not pretty obvious because people have different interpretations and all of them are meaningless because we can can't know what the character is thinking (it actually isn't thinking unless the cartoon tells us) and she was knocked unconscious. If her enemy wasn't following a script that caused her to fly off for no apparent reason, Celestia would be dead.

 

But, that is true. We don't know how did Nightmare Moon defeat Celestia in the alternate timeline. Still, I don't know what you're talking about alicorn battles. I never really seem and neither have you. I already talked about Nightmare Moon and in the end it's not really important. If anything you've convinced me that I can't say that Luna is stronger just because she "defeated" Celestia as Nightmare Moon. After all, the two never really fought, as far as we know.