Do you mind 'ponies are superior' logic if...

[Ziggy + Angel + Rain 11,302]

 

Somewhat against my better judgement, and now that I've settled down, I'm taking one more crack at this lol.  Indeed, in my original post, I claimed that ponies didn't commit certain acts.  Period.  And that was what you addressed.  I left myself open for rebuttal.  However, the underlying point of my original post was that ponies were comparably more moral than humans.  Which is a point I still stand by, and a point you didn't necessarily address nor refute.  You listed a handful of instances from the show wherein ponies were inarguably behaving in an immoral manner...  But it was a mere handful.  How many humans have committed reprehensible, immoral acts?  We, considered as the human race / a species, and the ponies, considered as a species: which is comparably more moral?  If you've two groups, both composed of 100 individuals, and there are 98 murderers in one group and 2 murderers in another...  Which group is more "murderous?"  By comparison and relying upon canon (if you can't prove that an immoral act occurred, you can't count it - you could but imagine some arbitrary number of yearly pony rapings, for example) versus human history, our OWN news outlets, and what have you...  I still insist that the pony race is the more moral of the two.

 

You did an excellent job of refuting certain points in my argument (though I feel there were several communication hiccups where I felt I'd been misunderstood - or I failed to make myself clear), but I don't think a handful of canon-derived instances so much as hold a candle to the cumulative evils prepetrated by the whole of the human race throughout our history.  Far more than a handful of us, unfortunately, have committed all manner of despicable acts.  Again, one could imagine that there are many more sinister ponies out there.  Murderers, rapists, filly molesters - what have you.  But you can't even begin to produce a credible number.  I'm sure were I to begin counting the murderers amongst us (and the murderers that are no longer with us) that I would have a more significant number than canon-potential murderers in a matter of minutes.

Edited June 11, 2014 by PegaMister

[Hive King 2,001]

@,

We don't know enough about MLP to make that kind of decision though. Their could be a crime rate of 60% for all we know. What we lack is background information

 

I am not arguing whether there are more pony criminals than humans, that's impossible to prove or disprove. What we are arguing is if ponies are inherently better morally and in that respect, they are not. If they were, there wouldn't be any of these, period 

[GreyScholar 1,584]

As I said, I refuse to be anything's "subject", whether it's a human or a pony. I'd rather have free will than have a Monarch, even if it is Best Princess, Celestia.

you know I'd really wish people stop thinking that a monarchy automatically means people don't have free will or the ability to make their own choices.

 

You would not be 'subject' to the royal sister, I believe anyone in Equestria can choose for themselves to follow Celestia and Luna. Citizen of Equestria choose to follow the royal sisters out of respect and true reverence.

 

Of note though ponies would probably think you strange or odd for not wanting to follow the royal sisters and I mysel feel that no leader on this earth could compare to someone with over a millenia of experience Heck, I would say any nation will be lucky to have a leader like Princess Celestia

[Hive King 2,001]

@@EquestrianScholar,

The same Celestia who was unable to realize who Chrysalis was when right in front of her and nearly screwed everyone over when she trusted Discord, twice? 

[Rainblow H. Ash 5,091]

you know I'd really wish people stop thinking that a monarchy automatically means people don't have free will or the ability to make their own choices.

 

You would not be 'subject' to the royal sister, I believe anyone in Equestria can choose for themselves to follow Celestia and Luna. Citizen of Equestria choose to follow the royal sisters out of respect and true reverence.

 

Of note though ponies would probably think you strange or odd for not wanting to follow the royal sisters and I mysel feel that no leader on this earth could compare to someone with over a millenia of experience Heck, I would say any nation will be lucky to have a leader like Princess Celestia

 

Monarchy does automatically mean that you are a subject. In fact, the only reason that the ponies have free will or make their own choices is because Celestia is a good leader, not because Monarchy gives you free will. She could just as easily order everypony to bow down whenever she walks in the room, but she doesn't because she's not like that. She does have that power though. Put Luna when she was all crazy bonkers as Nightmare Moon in her place, and I can bet you that the Equestrian Monarchy wouldn't be so glorious in the eyes of Equestrian Citizens any longer.

 

That's what you believe, but there's absolutely no evidence to support or confirm that every single pony that is under Celestia is under her by choice. I do think that, knowing Celestia, she would allow ponies to leave and live on their own outside of her influence, but that's only because she's Celestia and not any other normal ruler.

 

Discord had thousands of years of experience yet before his reformation he wanted to rule over a land of Chaos where ponies suffer as his playthings. Celestia luckily used her experience wisely, that doesn't mean her age puts her above everypony. If that was the case, Sombra, Discord, and Tirek would all be great leaders because they're just as old.

[Ziggy + Angel + Rain 11,302]

@,

We don't know enough about MLP to make that kind of decision though. Their could be a crime rate of 60% for all we know. What we lack is background information

 

I am not arguing whether there are more pony criminals than humans, that's impossible to prove or disprove. What we are arguing is if ponies are inherently better morally and in that respect, they are not. If they were, there wouldn't be any of these, period 

Thank you for the prompt reply.  Were the world of Equestria more fleshed out (and not written with a younger audience in mind), we may have more information to go by.  But I can only work with / make determinations from the information that I have.  And you seem to take the position that a few bad apples spoil the bunch.  I'm not necessarily asking whether the individual human or individual pony is moral, nor if the potential for amorality for the respective individuals is greater or lesser than the other.  I'm simply measuring, so far as I am able, the number of significantly amoral acts for which either species is, of a certainty, responsible.

 

Although...  And surely you could effortlessly debate me on this point as well lol...  I do believe that there exists a potential in practically any human being to commit evil.  I do not believe that there exists the potential in any member of the Mane 6 to, for example, commit an act of murder in cold blood (I don't regard killing someone in justifiable self defense - when no other options are available - to be evil).

[Bendy 1,821]

Somewhat against my better judgement, and now that I've settled down, I'm taking one more crack at this lol.  Indeed, in my original post, I claimed that ponies didn't commit certain acts.  Period. 

 

If hypothetically and something silly as MLP FIM ponies actually exist, it would mean all evil alter egos exist too out there in the multiverse. And therefore ponies be just as and sometimes even more evil than us humans.

 

Eg, Cupcakes Pinkie Pie, Borglestia and any other evil fan fiction/fandom made pony. 

Why is that likely?  Upon what research is that based?  

 

So humans are the most evil things ever? 

 

What if there's something out there that's even worse than us?

Edited June 11, 2014 by Rush

[Ziggy + Angel + Rain 11,302]

If hypothetically and something silly as MLP FIM ponies actually exist, it would mean all evil alter egos exist too out there in the multiverse. And therefore ponies be just as and sometimes even more evil than us humans.

 

Eg, Cupcakes Pinkie Pie, Borglestia and any other evil fan fiction/fandom made pony. 

 

So humans are the most evil things ever? 

 

What if there's something out there that's even worse than us?

Stepping outside the hypothetical...  MLP ponies (and it pains me to say this lol) do not exist.  I'm comparing a fictional species (about which we know comparably little) against the very real human race (about which I probably know too much).  And I'm referring exclusively to the ponies of the canon universe; evil fanfiction-derived alter egos do not canon make.  Otherwise, every work of fiction ever written about HUMANS might also apply.

 

And I SHUDDER to think of what manner of creature could be worse than us lol.  Until I meet one (and I hope I never do), human beings are simultaneously some of the worst (and sometimes, if far less often, best) creatures that exist.

[Hive King 2,001]

@,

That is untrue, Twilight was going for the kill against Tirek, even before they started fighting. As a matter of fact, she threw the first fatal attempt(Tirek had no reason to try and kill her, he wants to drain her magic). Twilight also impaled a bird during Lesson Zero

That's right where her horn is 

[Ziggy + Angel + Rain 11,302]

@,

That is untrue, Twilight was going for the kill against Tirek, even before they started fighting. As a matter of fact, she threw the first fatal attempt(Tirek had no reason to try and kill her, he wants to drain her magic). Twilight also impaled a bird during Lesson Zero

That's right where her horn is 

I'd almost forgotten how frightening she was in that episode. xD  Actually, she reminds me somewhat of myself at times - mid-OCD freak outs.  And I can't capably comment on the Tirek incident, as I've never seen it.  I'm not personally familiar with how much of a threat Tirek posed to her, or if her actions could be perceived as (or argued as being) justifiable.  So let's just label Twilight a potential / attempted murderer; I can live with that.  Unless she murders me.

 

And as much as you dislike "meta" arguments lol, I don't see any most of the Mane 6 (or ponies in general) needlessly and unjustifiably ending a life (and perhaps that bird, at least, had it coming) being written into the show proper.  Were I a betting man (and I'm not) I'd wager that MLP:FIM ends without any of the Mane 6 spitefully drowning Diamond Tiara in a bucket of apple cider.  Though...  Perhaps that would be justifiable.

[Hive King 2,001]

@,

Obviously, show wise, it won't happen. But the intent was there, and that's what ends up mattering in moral debates. You're not less evil because you only tried to kill someone

 

And while Tirek wasn't a significant threat, she's the one who tried to kill him first(he was going to drain her, but not kill her) 

[Ziggy + Angel + Rain 11,302]

@,

Obviously, show wise, it won't happen. But the intent was there, and that's what ends up mattering in moral debates. You're not less evil because you only tried to kill someone

Relying entirely on your knowledge of the incident, that seems a fair point.  And a fair point, in general, if intent can indeed be proven.  I'm still playing the numbers game in my head, but the argument as a whole does appear to have moved past that.

 

If I might ask, is there any reason ulterior to pure logic that you take this position on pony morality?  I'd be the first to admit that I, myself, am usually the misanthropic sort (shocking, I know xD ); thus I'm in this to belittle the human race (as much, if not moreso, to argue a fundamental point) as a collective entity.

[Hive King 2,001]

@,

Because, the ponies clearly have moral dillemas, that's the whole point of the show. By being human and fallible, having that choice to fall into darkness but not doing so, it makes them better heroes. If they are simply better morally, they aren't truly good because they can never be evil, so what's the point? It's like giving a goldfish a prize for being gold 

[Ziggy + Angel + Rain 11,302]

@,

Because, the ponies clearly have moral dillemas, that's the whole point of the show. By being human and fallible, having that choice to fall into darkness but not doing so, it makes them better heroes. If they are simply better morally, they aren't truly good because they can never be evil, so what's the point? It's like giving a goldfish a prize for being gold 

That's...  A far better ulterior reason than mine lol.  I can understand that perspective.  Well, I hope I haven't appeared too pompous and / or confrontational in our dealings.  I sometimes, almost involuntarily, play the part of contrarian, or I will take a position simply because it seems more difficult to argue.  Because I am silly.  Auf wiedersehen.

[Hive King 2,001]

That's...  A far better ulterior reason than mine lol.  I can understand that perspective.  Well, I hope I haven't appeared too pompous and / or confrontational in our dealings.  I sometimes, almost involuntarily, play the part of contrarian, or I will take a position simply because it seems more difficult to argue.  Because I am silly.  Auf wiedersehen.

Tch, you were not pompous. The reason I want the ponies to have mistakes is because I like them. 

 

It's the same reasoning behind why PURE evil and PURE good are also the highest innocence as well. They don't know any better and as such, are they really good or evil? Or it it just an inherent part of their nature? I say no