Suppose Tirek DID Give Discord What He Sought

[Cwanky 17,687]

Now I am going to ask you all to suspend what you learned from the finale, Twilight’s Kingdom.  We all know Discord was misled by Tirek, under what could be perceived as sincere and understandable motives, to join him and later was subsequently betrayed just as he betrayed Equestria in turn. Tirek is not just ruthless and mean, he lacks empathy, care, and is manipulative to the point that he has no true ally he would not hesitate to betray.

Here’s where the Devil’s advocate comes in. Forget those things. Discord was never betrayed by Tirek and became a close ally if just a servant in turn, and Tirek was sincere and understanding to Discord, even regarding him as a friend he puts his trust and loyalty in.

 

What then would this suggest? Would Scorpan’s amulet suddenly cease to be a symbol of friendship, even if its among the worst of villains? What defines friendship exactly and who falls in this category?

 

For that matter what does it make of Twilight’s mission here? I would say that to her part, it could be viewed as a failure to befriend someone Celestia trusted her to win over. Fluttershy’s efforts and her friendship with Discord would end in tragedy and the Mane 6 would have only themselves to blame.

 

Going beyond even that, what would nations outside Equestria think of Tirek’s success? Sure they fear him and others may decry his actions, but many might also cheer on and celebrate his conquest, if just quietly. Remember, by some interpretations, Celestia and Luna are in effect, equally tyrants as they are rulers, especially if we follow the headcannon that they control the entire sun and moon of that planet. Such a liberation from an oppressive ruler may be largely welcome by some.

 

Unlike the world of FiM at times, the world we live in is not as black and white as some may lead us to believe. Every story has more than 1 perspective. 

[The Crimson Cross 7,532]

I like the way you think here! No problem with being a devil's advocate!

 

With Tirek ruling with Discord, presuming he kept his powers I'd imagine that Equestria would revert back to it's primal state that was implied when Discord reigned over Equestria all those years ago.

 

You can't be forgetting that Tirek drained all the other ponies' magical powers, so I'm sure nobody would be too pleased with that!

A land of perpetual chaos might be good for some, but it would lead to a lot of misery, or even to a similar scenario of today's world where they'd rely on some kind of technology to live their lives, ponies would want their magic back no doubt, an it might even lead to a revolt.

Edited August 1, 2014 by The Crimson Cross

[Rarity Paige Belle 1,854]

I like the way you think here! No problem with being a devil's advocate!

ld where they'd rely on some kind of technology to live their lives, ponies would want their magic back no doubt, an it might even lead to a revolt.

Actually I disagree, sooner or later Discord and Tirek would turn on each other. There's no way they would share power! Edited August 1, 2014 by Rarity Paige Belle

[The Crimson Cross 7,532]

Actually I disagree, sooner or later Discord and Tirek would turn on each other. There's no way they would share power!

 

Although that's true, and I agree with you on that also, for the sake of the scenario above, we are assuming that they won't! 

[Rarity Paige Belle 1,854]

Although that's true, and I agree with you on that also, for the sake of the scenario above, we are assuming that they won't! 

OK, then would probably split Equestria, with Tirek ruling from Canterlot and I dunno, Discord ruling from the Crystal Empire?

[Ianpiersonjdavis 513]

Not to mention Tirek has been shown to be extremely racist against equines, so he'd probably want to turn them into slaves or kill them.

 

And based on what I've seen from Discord, as insufferable as he can be with his antics-he has never actually tried to kill anyone before (unlike Tirek)-so he may have a bit of an issue with that, there is also the fact that while Discord joined Tirek his chaotic nature never reached the point it was before he was first turned to stone. 

 

So, he might take issue with a homicidal tyrant trying to destroy his playthings and that could lead to a falling out as a serious conflict of interest.

[~ Dr. Ocsid ~ 690]

And based on what I've seen from Discord, as insufferable as he can be with his antics-he has never actually tried to kill anyone before (unlike Tirek)-so he may have a bit of an issue with that, there is also the fact that while Discord joined Tirek his chaotic nature never reached the point it was before he was first turned to stone. 

of interest.

Indeed, he wouldn't kill anyone. This way the fun would be extremely short, and since fun is the second-most important thing after Chaos to him (not taking Fluttershy into account because he would have betrayed her in this szenario) he would want it to last longer. Seriously, I think being killed by Tirek is a mercy compared to being a toy to an out-of-control Discord. 

And since his powers seem to get stronger the more Chaos he creates, he would soon get much stronger than Tirek if the centaur have let him get to this power. 

I think Tirek hadn't much of an choice but to betray him, out of to reasons:

1. If Discord were allowed to create enough Chaos, he would soon have been able to overpower Tirek and would probably turned Tirek into a mad king in a giant game of chess. (Both metaphorical and real)

2. There was no other way to prevent this than by steeling his magic right after the betrayal, because if Discord had a clear mind even for a second, Tirek wouldn't have stand a chance against him.

[Pastel 7,630]

Tirek would have never done that. He was planning to betray Discord right from the beginning.

 

he has never actually tried to kill anyone before (unlike Tirek)

Has Tirek ever killed someone? I don't remember that.

Edited August 1, 2014 by Blobulle

[~ Dr. Ocsid ~ 690]

 

Has Tirek ever killed someone? I don't remember that.

He certainly tried to kill Twilight. Or what else would you call smashing someone through a mountain? Diplomacy?

Edited August 1, 2014 by YetAnotherDiscord

[Pastel 7,630]

He certainly tried to kill Twilight. Or what else would you call smashing someone through a mountain?

Ah yes. But he originally wanted to absorb her magic, so I guess he was just trying to weaken her. (plus I don't know if he could have absorbed her magic if he had killed her).

[~ Dr. Ocsid ~ 690]

Ah yes. But he originally wanted to absorb her magic, so I guess he was just trying to weaken her. (plus I don't know if he could have absorbed her magic if he had killed her).

I think he just wanted to be the single most powerfull user of magic in Equestria. This, he could achieve by two ways: Either absorbing Twilights Alicorn magic, or killing her. Since the other two extremely powerfull magical sources are already drained (Discord) or only passive (the Tree of Harmony), he wouldn't have needed to take her magic. In my opinion, he wanted to kill her, but at the end of the fight he was so intimated by the strength of her magic that he wanted to have it. 

[Pastel 7,630]

I think he just wanted to be the single most powerfull user of magic in Equestria. This, he could achieve by two ways: Either absorbing Twilights Alicorn magic, or killing her. Since the other two extremely powerfull magical sources are already drained (Discord) or only passive (the Tree of Harmony), he wouldn't have needed to take her magic. In my opinion, he wanted to kill her, but at the end of the fight he was so intimated by the strength of her magic that he wanted to have it. 

Not sure, the alicorns magic is an extremly powerful magic, maybe he wanted it just like Cell wanted the perfect form (in DBZ): because he was greedy.

Plus, just before the fight he said: "You're going to give me what I want."

 

But I think we're a bit OT.

Edited August 1, 2014 by Blobulle

[Ianpiersonjdavis 513]

Has Tirek ever killed someone? I don't remember that.

 

 

I was referring to him throwing a large fireball at the library while Twilight was in it.

Edited August 1, 2014 by Ianpiersonjdavis

[Pastel 7,630]

 

 

I was referring to him throwing a large fireball at the library while she was in it.

 

As I said, I think it was just to weaken her, knowing how powerful she has become thanks to the alicorns magic, I don't think that would have killed her.

[SilverStarApple 850]

Not sure, the alicorns magic is an extremly powerful magic, maybe he wanted it just like Cell wanted the perfect form (in DBZ): because he was greedy.

Plus, just before the fight he said: "You're going to give me what I want."

 

But I think we're a bit OT.

Must... Not... Ship this! I must not ship this! I like TwiDash, I like Twidash....

[Sunny Fox 5,952]

Tirek's stated purpose was to drain the magic of Equestria. I doubt killing the ponies really crossed his mind, he probably would just as dismissed them as insignificant once he had their magic. 

 

As for the amulet, when he gave it to Discord, he already had no emotional connection to it... it was his brother's amulet, and his brother betrayed him. It was only because Discord gave it to Twilight that it became a symbol of friendship. Assuming that Tirek never turned on Discord, it would never have inspired Discord to truly repent and the amulet would have been useless as the final key. (Indeed, the location of the final key would remain a mystery.)

 

I can quite see that Tirek might go off to other parts and leave Discord to rule over Equestria.

Edited August 1, 2014 by Sunny Fox

[Cwanky 17,687]

Tirek's stated purpose was to drain the magic of Equestria. I doubt killing the ponies really crossed his mind, he probably would just as dismissed them as insignificant once he had their magic. 

 

As for the amulet, when he gave it to Discord, he already had no emotional connection to it... it was his brother's amulet, and his brother betrayed him. It was only because Discord gave it to Twilight that it became a symbol of friendship. Assuming that Tirek never turned on Discord, it would never have inspired Discord to truly repent and the amulet would have been useless as the final key. (Indeed, the location of the final key would remain a mystery.)

 

I can quite see that Tirek might go off to other parts and leave Discord to rule over Equestria.

This seems about right. Tirek had no further interest in the Alicorns once he realized their magic was drained. If anything, he chained them up and kept them alive as collateral.

 

 

As it pertains to this hypothetical though, I'm have to disagree about the amulet. Initially, when Scorpan was still also intending to conquer Equestria, he and Tirek were still on good terms - up until his betrayal, hence his distrust. I could only imagine that the betrayal made Tirek bitter and distrusting of others, if he wasn't already. Because of this, the amulet meant little to Tirek but negativity.

 

 

Enter Discord. Where Scorpan failed in Tirek’s eyes, Discord was at least willing to trust and follow Tirek. Forget that Tirek is manipulative and insincere and assume he actually saw a worthy ally and friend he could put his trust and loyalty to in Discord, and “redeemable” from his flaws.

 

 

In that sense the amulet would actually mean something valuable to Tirek, as well as Discord. What would this mean for the value of friendship itself? Dictators rarely rise to power on their own and are passionate and sincere about their goals. Consequently even taking aside the manipulated masses, there are those that sincerely believe what others may perceive as unjust as just. Look at the Ukraine Civil War, Palestine and Israel, and many other conflicts.

 

 

And so something similar may be said about Discord’s empathy with Tirek, regardless of the situation. He saw someone who valued freedom and could appreciate him for who he was, not reject, fear, and hate him despite his efforts to be an ally.

 

 

Each lesson that the Mane 6 learned about their virtues teaches both sides something. While they fall short of their virtue, they in turn learn to better themselves from others who fell short and in turn learned an invaluable lesson.

 

 

Coco Pommel learned that caring for others and being nice, was more rewarding than trying to get ahead in a cutthroat environment looking out only for oneself. Rarity herself was sucked into this environment to win a fashion show and nearly lost sight of those who mattered to her.

 

 

Spitfire and Fleetfoot learned the lesson of faithfulness to one’s friends, even when they may seem burdensome like Soarin was putting their competitive chances of doing well at. Rainbow likewise faced a similar dilemma when she nearly considered leaving her teammates for better allies to win.

 

 

 

I won’t elaborate on all of the examples but Twilight’s example is 1 many people fail to notice.

 

 

Discord learned the lesson of what friendship really meant. He thought that Tirek was a better friend than Fluttershy or the others could be because he empathized with Discord valuing freedom and giving him a false offering of loyalty, trust, and respect. Ultimately Discord realized that what he truly valued in a good friend was already there – compassion, understanding, forgiveness and patience, all traits Fluttershy had and Tirek did not. Regardless, Tirek was never Discord’s friend, nor intended to be.

 

 

Twilight failed initially because she truly didn’t treat Discord as a friend, nor make a sincere effort. Despite all his efforts to help her as an ally, as annoying and antagonistic as he was at times, Twilight spurned him away and saw him more as an enemy to be feared and hated. Of all the Mane 6, only Fluttershy made that effort to befriend Discord and respect him for who he is. Even where she does make good effort to help Discord as a friend in Three’s Company, the relationship was often hostile and tense at best. So as long as Twilight saw Discord as an enemy and annoyance, Discord saw little reason to cease his antagonistic charade and distance himself from anyone not named Fluttershy.

 

 

Taking aside all the other what ifs, consider this last point: The success of the Mane 6, and thus Equestria’s fate, hinged on Twilight learning what friendship truly meant, from another – Discord. What would it suggest about friendship had Twilight not only failed, but also Discord found true as friendship with someone as “bad” as Tirek?

 

 

It really gives a lot of perspective to our own world really.   

 

[Darker 1,352]

For Tirek, Discord would become an annoyance sooner or later.

 

I just like that it was sooner.

My favourite childhood MLP character wrecking the most overrated MLP villain of all time was satisfactory. Tirek owned Discord the best way possible.

[Castle Bleck 19,405]

Discord would've eventually suffered from the Lonely At The Top trope, given he was noticeably uncomfortable in terms of betraying Fluttershy.

[Spinelspike 78]

Given that Discord never once actually attempted to kill anyone or really ever enslave anybody (keeping people captive perhaps, but he's usually happier just being left to his own devices and creating his own chaos at free will), it may be possible for him to be eventually corrupted by Tirek, but had Tirek maybe gone too far in his rule, Discord may have opposed some of his decisions. Given how both characters have quite large egos, a think a confrontation between the two of them would happen eventually. I think Discord trusted Tirek to take charge initially because it was an eventual means to an end where Discord could picture himself as a ruler alongside Tirek as his equal (plus he was still adapting to betraying Equestria at first, but would become more comfortable once everyone had been subdued). 

But it's also interesting to consider whether Discord would even be of any use to Tirek after his dominion over Equestria was complete. In this scenario that we are imagining, Tirek gives Discord what he wants and doesn't betray him. But what then? We saw how eager Tirek was to cause destruction, and he clearly enjoys the process of defeating others. What would happen when there was no-one left to defeat. Nothing left to destroy. Would Tirek go even more mad with power than he already was and eventually shut Discord out regardless?

It's an interesting discussion, and even now, I'm not sure whether I truly know what would happen or not.

 

[Wind Chaser 4,768]

Once their takeover of Equestria would be complete, then Discord and Tirek's motivations would be in conflict.

 

Discord, as the embodiment of chaos, wants to turn Equestria into his playground. That is clear enough. However, Tirek's motivations are less clear. He only mentions that he would make every pony "bow to his will", but what use would they be if all their power was drained? They would make ineffectual slaves.

 

There are only a few likely outcomes. One would be that Tirek and Discord clash. Either one would win or they would destroy each other. Another possible situation would be Tirek taking his power and returning to his homeland, leaving Equestria for Discord, that is if his motivation was to steal power from the ponies and take it home with him. However, he could also have the motive of using his power to destroy Equestria, which would lead to not only Equestria's destruction but another inevitable clash with Discord.

 

Really, the one variable in all of this is what Tirek's motivation really was. With all magic stolen from the ponies, was Tirek intending to take their power home with him, or was he intending on destroying the world? With that unclear, there are quite a few possibilities.

 

By turning on Discord, Tirek pretty much ensured his own victory, and probably knew that if he had continued working with him, they may have clashed anyway.

Edited August 22, 2014 by Wind Chaser