GRIMDARK Opinions

[BROKENLOYALTY 51]

Thank you guys for replying and you all bring up interesting points. I don't really get the VIOLENCE AGAINST WOMEN THING but I respect your opinion.

[Ziggy + Angel + Rain 11,298]

Again, I personally don't find the appeal of such elements of fan labors in this universe, but considering my enjoyment of King, Cubbit, Burgess, etc, I shall not disparage a reader or viewer for their tastes. 

This is very likely more an issue of wording than of intent, but it seems as though you are characterizing the mutilation of women as a "taste."

 

And I don't necessarily feel the horror genre as a whole is relevant to the topic of MLP Grimdark (unless the OP meant things to be more broadly interpreted and I just missed it xD ).  You can enjoy Stephen King's "It" and still condemn "Cupcakes."  Though I've cited a very specific example, I do believe "It" (and, of course, King himself) made it clear who the bad guy was and that he was doing decidedly bad guy things.  You're not meant to empathize with the murderous clown, and the audience is meant to be frightened - rather than delighted.  Horrible things ought to be frightening.  I feel that's at the core of real horror.

 

Also, Stephen King was not a pony fanfic author.  I mean he isn't...  Yet.  The horrors he threatens us with are of his own mind and devising.  Even if you ultimately seek to evoke sympathy and even repulsion and heartache with your own characters, at least you've (hopefully) developed enough of an emotional connection to your own creation to feel something of a sting.  And even if you feel no sting at all, you are not borrowing an emotional response that you did not earn.  Fictionally dragging an innocent pony out of a comparably and incongruously nonviolent universe for the sole purpose of violence...  What?

 

Though you said you didn't care for it yourself, so I may well be preaching to the choir at this point.  I'm not awake. -_-

Thank you guys for replying and you all bring up interesting points. I don't really get the VIOLENCE AGAINST WOMEN THING but I respect your opinion.

The majority of MLP Grimdark depicts female ponies being done harm.  I argued this was a conscious and even purposeful choice.

 

And perhaps I ought to have clarified from the start: I consider Equestrian mares to be women.

[Pinkamena-Pills 6,838]

Pointless to me. If i want a hyper violence(which is what im referring too) fix, i wont waste my time looking to mlp to find it. 

 

Mainly because when i think of mlp, the last thing on my mind is going to be some over the top violence, that just doesn't even fit the basis of the show on a fundamental level. To me it just ends up seemingly so disconnected, its completely uninteresting to me. Even the mindless violence of Smile HD/Cupcakes, which im assuming was suppose to make me laugh or something(fuck if i know), just made me shrug my shoulders and go:

 

 

 

To each their own. But grimdark is just something i never got into in this fandom(then again, i can't say i care for what this fandom makes anymore), despite how clearly deranged weird i am. I just don't care for whatever silly story or animation is being presented when its overly violent. 

 

 

Disclaimer: if you din't notice, i was talking about hyper violence in grimdark, because the word "violence" itself is abit vague now adays, and you could easily say FiM is violent in a super literal term.(King Sombra being blown to pieces, or Pinkamena slamming Rainbow Dash's face by sitting on it, both are violent, tho one more than the other) 

 

So yup. 

[piece5 131]

I'll begin by saying that you raise interesting points; it gives me an opportunity to explore the subject in ways I ordinarily wouldn't have.  Even if I don't wholly agree with you, you're taking the time to effectively express your thoughts and opinions.  Know that my strong distaste for Grimdark colors my responses (though perhaps you assumed that from the start lol).

 

Warning: Frankenstein's monster approaches.  Cut and pastes and rewrites aplenty.

 

Here I'm seizing upon your choice of words: "Dark and edgy."  Not everything has to be - nor should be - those things.  Dark and edgy has been so overdone and exaggerated that it's, well...  Lost its edge. xD  Why can't art be different?  Seek to become known through its uniqueness rather than its expected broader appeal?  I'm not saying that's a realistic expectation, but it would be the preferable outcome.  I could not enjoy my success and would surely regret the journey if my rise to the top was littered with the likes of pony corpses.  The willingness to repeatedly depict such things is even suggestive of...  Apathy.  Or the pursuit of relative fame, whatever the cost.  I think you should possess enough of an emotional connection to the characters that it hurts YOU when they come to harm.  If the emotional connection isn't there, they're simply meat.  And an unimaginative means to an end.

 

I believe the artists opt for violence (against ponywomen) while there exist any number of alternatives.  Possibly for the very reasons you stated: Exposure.  Popularity.  Am I painting all MLP Grimdark artists with the same brush?  Yes.  Why?  Because I can.  Because they have made it possible (easy, even) by honing in on precisely what it is that most disgusts me about it.  The end result is the same no matter their personal motivations; therefore the motivations do not really concern me.  I might even be convinced that pursuing your break out moment in the art community at the expense of mutilated ponywomen is even more reprehensible than simply doing it because you enjoy making dark art. :/  Grimdark artists should damn well expect negative opinions to come stampeding their way.  What they do is inherently negative, and it is reliant upon preexisting emotions that aid them in eliciting desired - and bigger - reactions (the latter is perhaps truer of written works).

 

And there's another thing about exposure: You're purposely representing yourself with what art you choose to create.  "This is me, and this is what I do."  Even if the artist doesn't intend to promote this type of violence, they are still deliberately and knowingly putting it out there.  There's no little tag attached that says, "Oh, by the way, even though I gained notice by drawing horrific scenes involving, specifically, female ponies, I do not endorse the committal of violent acts against women."  And that nonexistent tag would be BS anyway.  Because the creation and utilization of that art - for the purposes of personal success - is, in and of itself, a silent endorsement of violence against women.  Why?  Because you're missing an essential balancing component:

 

Condemnation.

 

Instead, it's meant to be "cool."  Cooler than colorful equines might normally be viewed as being.  Dark.  Edgy.  Cool.  Who wants to see cute ponies when you can see dead ponies?  And I don't begin to understand how you can see the appeal of both; not if you care at all about the characters.  I generally prefer to see those I care bout, you know, physically intact and relatively unharmed.  That's not a moral judgment: It's a genuine lack of comprehension.  It does not compute for me.

 

I'm going to break this up to a few points.

 

Starting first with dark and edgy, I agree with you that not everything has to be dark and edgy. But when it is tastefully (There has never been a word so loosely used before XD) done, then it grows from simple shock value into something more. More often than not, however, the edge becomes what is desired in the art. And the artist will most likely feel an obligation to fulfill that desire, whether he/she believes in it or not. Much the same way that many shows give in to the popular plot lines rather than stay true to their original "Uniqueness" (The Walking Dead, anyone?). 

 

Many of the grimdark artists can (and have) branched off and away from Grimdark, and while they may have lost a few of their followers, they have gained other followers. Sometimes, if you want to get to the top, you've got to get your hands dirty. And while I can see you point about regretting the journey, would you not also feel some satisfaction that people were enjoying your art? That is, of course, ignoring the fact that you would have been able to see yourself grow as an artist from your beginning works to your end results. 

 

Some grimdark artists also create their works in order TO elicit an emotional reaction. They place these ponies in depictions of harm and pain to draw you closer to the show, and to the characters as well. When you see someone you care about in harm's way (Whether it be gorily detailed or otherwise), the emotional response should be to want to protect them, to want to come to their aid. These artists have my upmost respect, because they strengthen the emotional connection I have for the characters. 

 

Suggesting that the artists are apathetic towards the characters of the show is, in my opinion, a bit of a stretch. The artist obviously has some emotional connection with them, otherwise they would not be creating the art that they are creating. Even if they are just using the ponies for that little bit of a fame boost, there is still something there. Is it the emotional connection you and I share with the ponies? No. Does that mean there is nothing? No.

 

---

 

I'm glad you recognize you're painting all artists with the same brush (Art puns!), because I don't have to waste my time explaining that you are doing that. I will say that generalizations are the downfall of any argument, regardless of how intelligent they are. I've said it before, I am dead set against the assumption the grimdark artists want to see women mutilated. If they reall did, they would step their art up a bit more. Not only would they draw and write about it, they would do it. And I have yet to have heard anything about a grimdark artist (Of ANY kind) being caught up actively engaging in harmful activities. Could it have happened and maybe I just live in a nice bubble? Possibly. But the few that actively endorse violence against other people do not set a trend with which to lump all artists into. It simply would not compute.

 

Perhaps grimdark is inherently negative. But I like to believe that it exists to take the negative, and use it to reinforce the positive. I, for one, have seen many grimdark works that have made me want to go and fiercely protect the victims. These artists have made my love for the characters even stronger. Had I not come across Grimdark, I would most likely not feel the same way towards the colorful and majestic ponies as I do today.  And this is the end result that I personally believe most grimdark artists strive to reach with their audiences.

 

"There's no little tag attached that says, "Oh, by the way, even though I gained notice by drawing horrific scenes involving, specifically, female ponies, I do not endorse the committal of violent acts against women."  And that nonexistent tag would be BS anyway."

 

While there is no tag there, I do not believe in the necessity of one. Much the same way that video games don't come with a "This is stupid, don't try this at home" tag. Anyone who believes that grimdark is how they should be living their life is one of two things: Deranged, or idiotic. Possibly both. Humanity is born with a knowledge that there are certain things YOU JUST DON'T DO. And while we know that we can't do them, that doesn't stop us from imagining what would happen if we could do it. Thus, grimdark, movies, video games, and the like are born. It is a nice creative outlet that allows us to indulge ourselves in the darker aspects of life, while still remaining in our nice little bubble of safety. Calling the nonexistent tag BS is something that I must whole-heartedly reject. Why would an artist take so much time to try and elicit their followers into committing acts of senseless violence? There are much more effective ways to do that.

 

Who wants to see colorful ponies when you can see dead ones? I do. I want to see both. 

[VulpineTaco 525]

Look, I enjoy horror. I like it when horrifying things happen, but grimdark has the connotation not of horror, but rather gore. I never found things like Cupcakes or Rainbow Factory to be frightening, but really rather cheap and immature in terms of horror writing. There's nothing in those that sticks with you or haunts you, they're just there to make you sick, and frankly, that's not horror. Horror twists reality, it bends things all around to make the world seem unfamiliar and strange. And that's what's scary, not this whole "grimdark" trend.

[Ziggy + Angel + Rain 11,298]

@@piece5

 

Know that everything I say henceforth is in regard to MLP Grimdark, specifically.  I'll not be venturing off-topic, even if I do not regurgitate the same banal terminology forty times. xD

 

I fear we've reached the point at which we shall forever remain at an impasse.  Though I feel your precise outlook is - if not unique - a rare one, I do assert that you romanticize violence.  And while I admit my outlook is a cynical one (poisonous things may come from poisonous people), yours is overly generous in granting "the benefit of the doubt."  To say nothing of naivety.

 

Violence and death are ugly things.  They are ugly tools that accomplish an ugly purpose; flowers spring not from pools of blood.  To interpret these things as an avenue towards sympathy ignores what they are on a fundamental level.  I have never, in my life and in any context, found it necessary to see someone I cared for harmed.  Not to bring me "closer" to them.  Not if I harbor so much as a flickering spark of concern or affection in the first place.

 

And the Grimdark artists certainly are capable of eliciting a reaction: Disgust and anger.  Worse yet, they do so by taking hostage characters that are not their own.  I will recognize neither MLP Grimdark nor fanart / fanfiction as anything approaching the pinnacle of creativity and self-expression.  Because the most vital component in either case is a borrowed one.  Remove the borrowed element out of the equation, and the artist can expect neither exposure nor anywhere near the reaction.

 

This is why - if I'm able to look beyond my feelings - I am not in the least impressed with this artform.  And I think it is absolutely possible for a bandwagon-jumper to feel nothing towards their subject.  It is by no means outside the realm of possibility that some are simply using characters they've no emotional connection with or significant knowledge of in order to garner attention.

 

You also misunderstood what I meant by the tag.  And what I originally meant by advocacy.  It is possible to support, put forth, and even - through creative means - justify an inherently wrong idea.  Particularly where condemnation and retribution do not exist.  The audience need not be expected to go out and commit acts of violence; they need only be inspired to think differently as a result.  And you serve as a prime example of this.  Your initial defense of the artists has become a defense of the art has become the romanticization of violence.  Your inexplicably rosy outlook towards the dripping, rusty nail that is violence against innocents is proof of this influence.

 

Let's break things down in no uncertain terms, and let's remove the rose-tinted goggles:

 

An innocent woman subjected to something unspeakably horrible.  For the amusement of a gaggle of onlookers.  The onlookers not only condone what they witness, but RELISH it.

 

That's how I would characterize the majority of Grimdark.  Which I do - and will forever regard - as a rather weak and relatively uninventive form of art and literature.  I already experience sympathy for the ponies - and even love, and I did so without requiring their demeaning and mutilation.

 

The funny thing is: Had you simply said that you enjoyed something that was inherently wrong (or even expressed puzzlement as to why you enjoyed it), I'd not have had this ammunition.  Instead, I think you served to prove my original point.  "It's like watching a train wreck.  It's a guilty pleasure.  It's like a 'good' B-movie.  It's like watching the Twilight films even though they're awful.  I just couldn't look away."  But you didn't do that.

 

And why can't colorful ponies and dead ponies coexist?  Because death is a permanent, irreversible, painful, and tragic thing.  This particular juxtoposition of beauty and death is neither edgy nor creative; it's the tool of a bandwagon-jumping, attention-seeking, creatively bankrupt individual who has no viable or profitible ideas of their own.  And I do not expect Grimdark supporters to remain fans of MLP:FIM long after the show has ceased airing.

Edited December 30, 2014 by Ziggy Belongs to RD

[Cuddly 43]

I like grimdarks, but not every grimdark. I think that, grimdarks (no matter- art or fanfic or music) must have sense, like every kind of art. Unfortunately, many artists who make grimdarks completely forget about it. Slaughter only for slaughter, violence only for violence, murders without story or even reason- it is completely unthinkable for me. It's just stupid, nothing also. Also, many of grimdark fanfics are similar. I know, maybe it's hard to write something original in story, witch is full of violence, but solution is simply- you have no idea, you don't write.

 

However, some grimdark arts/fanfics with amazing story, credible reason for events (it's mean violence or murders of course) and I very, very like it.

[ShadowPirateX 600]

It's probably the sadist in me, but I enjoy grimdark. Even the ones that has no reason behind the slaughter. For sometimes, there's no need! Take Smile HD as an example. I really enjoy it, simply because it's so hilarious to see Pinkie Pie go berserk DBZ style! XD

 

But I also enjoy violent stories with a deep plot even if the violence isn't explained. After all, sometimes you can't explain why the story is violent. For all we know, Ninja Gaiden could have been a children's game, but no. Some stories are just meant for mature audiences only.

[Odyssey 5,713]

I may not follow grimdark, but I actually do like it. I would see why people dislike it as it's the opposite of MLP:FiM, but I'm a fan of alternate universes as it experiments with the entire concept of MLP:FiM. It also plays with the character's personalities which means that they have more freedom on what they do in a story. The more we do fanworks that simply stick to the concept of MLP:FiM, the more they get a little predictable and dull. Because of that I'm also a fan of alternate character interpretations, like Princess Trollestia and Derpy.

 

I'm more of a fan of grimdark that leans on black comedy, however. It's my kind of humour.

Edited December 31, 2014 by Odyssey

[Miles 2,512]

Grimdark and gore are genres I actively avoid.

 

B-i-n-g-o, and Bingo was his name-o.

 

I do not like it at all.  I mean, whatever floats people's boats, but I'll just stay safe at dock you know? Lmao.  

 

Don't get me wrong, I love art.  Talent is talent and I think any artist deserves the recognition of being told so by active seekers of their own genre (if I may so use the word "genre" in the sense).  

 

But, I'll stick with the the non-violent types myself.

 

This right here is one of my favorite types (this was a previous picture I used as an avatar, actually):

 

 

 

 

 

 

This style is called "Art Nouveau" - I think it's absolutely beautiful.

 

 

 

~ Miles