Unfortunate implications

[Dark Qiviut 22,387]

If you've read my history, this is something I address about this show very often: unfortunate implications. Situations where the author (or higher-up) unintentionally created a situation that can be questionable or offensive.

 

As good as this show is, unfortunate implications are abundant in this series. To name a few:

• Maud Pie:
  

  Twilight Sparkle: Pinkie Pie's happiness means as much to us as it does to you, and we're sorry we couldn't see it sooner. The thing that makes us click and creates a special bond between us is how much we all love Pinkie Pie!

  Just because they're friends with someone else doesn't mean they're automatically friends with Maud. Throughout, none of the ReMane Five demonstrate any further closeness with Maud, so this revelation is forced. To make it worse, Twilight explicitly rejected a very similar idea from Fluttershy about pretending to be friends with her only a few minutes ago. Twilight's logic is hypocritical and implies a lack of genuine respect for Pinkie.

• Dragon Quest is the home of unfortunate implications:
  
  a. The dialogue at the beginning when Applejack and Pinkie asked why would he want to be like other dragons. To quote from my post here:
   

   

  "You're not like other blacks, but why would want you to?"
  
  "You're not like other gay people, but why would you want to?"
  
  "You're not like other Muslims, but why would you want to?"

  b. Later, the dragons he joined were stereotypical bullies with absolutely no regard for anyone's lives but their own, and Spike rejected the dragon race altogether. This is one way bigotry starts: painting a brush on a whole group by the lowlifes. Its blatant sexism and xenophobia are a direct contradiction to the show's entire message as a family-friendly, gender-neutral product, and it damaged the worldbuilding of dragons altogether.

• Derpy's censorship in The Last Roundup. It wasn't just Derpy who was censored, but Rainbow Dash, too. In the previous version, Derpy was oblivious, not careful, childlike, yet still felt bad for her mistakes. In the censored version, she's more sarcastic, she sounds dimwitted, her voice is a stereotype, Dash talks to her like a child, and her eyes are less derped. Thanks to her censorship, Hasbro tells the audience that people like Derpy don't exist, shouldn't exist, and/or should be corrected. By trying to respond to complaints, Hasbro only made the situation much worse.

• Feeling Pinkie Keen's accidental false debate between science and faith. The poorly worded moral itself doesn't help, but there's more.
  
  a. In the episode, the characters talk a lot about science and faith, accidentally triggering the debate.
  
  b. The character who uses science, Twilight, is the antagonist and akin to a straw man.

• Somepony to Watch Over Me's backwards moral.
  
  "You spill a bowl of soup? Twenty-four-hour surveillance!"
  
  "You nearly get yourself killed by a chimera? You don't need to be watched over!"
  
  Seriously?! What nearly happened to AB during the battle scene gives Applejack plenty of incentive to baby Apple Bloom. Instead, AJ's character is derailed, and the screwed-up moral is the cherry on top.

So, now it's your turn.

• Which unfortunate implications stick out the most? Name the episode and pinpoint the implications.
• Describe why it's an unfortunate implication. Describe thoroughly.
• How would you try and fix them?

Edited January 15, 2015 by Dark Qiviut

[Dulset Tarn 441]

Hmm... Boast Busters sorta bugs me because, well ask yourself, why is Twilight's magic so much more powerful than Trixie's?

The good answer is "Because she's Celestia's personal protege and has been diligently studying magic for years." But thinking back, at that point in the series we don't know that she's the princess's protege, just that she's a student of Celestia's hardly different from her classmates. We also haven't actually heard that she's studying magic, she comes across like a student of history or mythology or whatever. And looking at the episode itself, it gives the reason Twilight is so much more powerful as "Because her cutie mark is magic". That's literally it. Because Twilight was born with magical talent, that alone makes her super powerful. Not sure if it fits the thread perfectly but it still bugs me.

[Manman20x6 359]

"Too Many Pinkie Pies" has Twilight mercilessly slaughtering dozens of sentient beings because they were annoying. If human cloning ever becomes viable, this episode will instantly become the most shameful thing Hasbro has ever released due to its message insinuating that clones aren't real people with rights and it's OK to murder them for petty reasons. These clones displayed intelligence on a level similar to the "real" ponies, so why is it OK to kill them without a second thought?

 

If the show mentioned that the clones were dragged out from an alternate world, and the spell Twilight used simply sent them back, it would have been easier to watch what otherwise appears to be a genocide.

[Cleverclover 1,526]

Rarity's apparent racism sticks out to me. 

 

In Bridle Gossip she is shown to be disturbed/disgusted by Zecora's stripes, which in the real world would pretty much translate to her being disturbed/disgusted by the color of her skin. 

 

And who could forget that lovely "Mules are ugly" line from A Dog and Pony Show? Mules are a genuinely sentient race in FiM, and this was something that had been established early on in the episode Applebuck Season, with the mule who says "None taken" when Twilight describes Applejack as being stubborn as a mule. So it's not like the writers made mules a sentient race after this episode. So basically, in the real world, Rarity may as well have said something like "Asians are ugly". 

 

However, on that note, the fact that phrases like "stubborn as a mule" and "be cool or be a mule" exist at all in a world where mules are actually sentient is somewhat disturbing. So in this regard, perhaps it's not just Rarity who's racist against mules---perhaps it's the majority of ponykind. Damn... 

 

However, both of these examples occurred in season 1, and Rarity hasn't really had any more racist moments since then. But I will point out that there was a tiny scene in Equestria Games that came off as racist. It's the scene where Rarity tries to enter the stadium and is stopped by a pony who says that unicorns are no longer permitted to enter without first having their magic suppressed. The scene comes off as racist simply because of the tone of the pony who tells her this. He sounds disgruntled as if he seems to believe that all unicorns are cheaters (He himself appears to be an earth pony). Rarity was also visibly annoyed at the implication that she would cheat. 

 

However, on the other hand, it was nice to see Rarity get some comeuppance for her earlier racist remarks. Yeah, how does it feel when someone singles you out, huh, bitch?

 

(I'm just kidding.  I love Rarity.)  

[Moonlight 7,286]

Not sure if it technically counts but One Bad Apple for me personally. Both "come to an adult and the bully problem will go away" and the whole "Babs was bullied back home therefore she can be a bully in a new location".

 

 The first one comes off noticeably bad in the way that some adults may not care or even do anything about the situation, and there's always the off chance that the bully problem could get worse just because you "snitched" on them. There's also the possibility that the bully could be downright sadistic. And the other one is pretty straightforward, basically saying that if you're getting bullied then you should become a bully yourself.

 

  I'm not really sure how I would really "fix" them both but it might've been possible for the CMC to go towards someone and they end up not being able to help. And the other one Babs could've been a bully back home as well and during her visit to Ponyville she learned that being a bully isn't a good thing. Something along any of those lines.

[Dark Qiviut 22,387]

@, What happened in One Bad Apple absolutely counts as an unfortunate implication, and I made that point relatively clear in my own review, too.

 

One brony on Fanfiction.net decided to try to fix it in his or her own way through this fanfic. In Mr. Enter's very harsh video review, one suggestion he made is have the CMCs tell Applejack, but have her not believe them because it doesn't make sense for a bullied person to become a bully that quickly.

 

I think there can be other methods, such as reviewing the complexities of bullying, what makes a bully tick, and what methods you can solve it without having to go with the destructive clichés presented in OBA.

Edited January 15, 2015 by Dark Qiviut

[Discordian 6,015]

Rarity's apparent racism sticks out to me. 

 

In Bridle Gossip she is shown to be disturbed/disgusted by Zecora's stripes, which in the real world would pretty much translate to her being disturbed/disgusted by the color of her skin. 

 

And who could forget that lovely "Mules are ugly" line from A Dog and Pony Show? Mules are a genuinely sentient race in FiM, and this was something that had been established early on in the episode Applebuck Season, with the mule who says "None taken" when Twilight describes Applejack as being stubborn as a mule. So it's not like the writers made mules a sentient race after this episode. So basically, in the real world, Rarity may as well have said something like "Asians are ugly". 

 

However, on that note, the fact that phrases like "stubborn as a mule" and "be cool or be a mule" exist at all in a world where mules are actually sentient is somewhat disturbing. So in this regard, perhaps it's not just Rarity who's racist against mules---perhaps it's the majority of ponykind. Damn... 

 

However, both of these examples occurred in season 1, and Rarity hasn't really had any more racist moments since then. But I will point out that there was a tiny scene in Equestria Games that came off as racist. It's the scene where Rarity tries to enter the stadium and is stopped by a pony who says that unicorns are no longer permitted to enter without first having their magic suppressed. The scene comes off as racist simply because of the tone of the pony who tells her this. He sounds disgruntled as if he seems to believe that all unicorns are cheaters (He himself appears to be an earth pony). Rarity was also visibly annoyed at the implication that she would cheat. 

 

However, on the other hand, it was nice to see Rarity get some comeuppance for her earlier racist remarks. Yeah, how does it feel when someone singles you out, huh, bitch?

 

(I'm just kidding.  I love Rarity.)

A lot of these seem to me like they weren't just fully thought through before being put into the show. In our world stripes can be quite gaudy and phrases like "stubborn as a mule" apply to our world and what it's built upon.

 

Translating such things into a fantasy universe can be overlooked pretty easily. It happens more often than not when they try to throw in real-world phrases or words into a fantasy setting and it shouldn't translate as well.

 

It comes down to "you're putting too much thought into it" but I'm not gonna tell you to think less.

[Guest90210 3,568]

As much as I love "Pinkie Pride", the way Pinkie's friends treated her was very questionable and mean-spirited. It implies that friendship isn't as important as they normally paint it out to be in the show. A new guy comes into town, and they abandon Pinkie Pie's plan for Rainbow's birthday party, something they knew meant so much to Pinkie. She was devastated. The Mane 6 shouldn't have even let the "Goof Off" occur. A good friend would have apologized right there instead of holding some sort of competition to decide who gets the "right" to throw Rainbow's birthday party when it should have been Pinkie's right in the first place.

 

"Rainbow Dash: I mean, Pinkie Pie's parties are fun and sweet and all, but now this party's gonna be--

Cheese Sandwich: Epic?

Rainbow Dash: You said it! Oh, yeah!"

 

They try to explain this later, but it doesn't help.

 

"Rainbow Dash: But don't you get it? You're both super duper party ponies. Sure, Cheese Sandwich is a great guest party pony, but you're Ponyville's permanent party pony. Nopony could ever take your place, and we could never have a party without you."

 

If that's what she really meant, she (and everyone else) did a horrible job of explaining it earlier by just walking off with Cheese, leaving Pinkie behind, not telling her anything until after they left her, and while also failing to mention it during the Goof Off.

Edited January 15, 2015 by Rivendare

[Dulset Tarn 441]

 

As much as I love "Pinkie Pride", the way Pinkie's friends treated her was very questionable and mean-spirited. It implies that friendship isn't as important as they normally paint it out to be in the show. A new guy comes into town, and they abandon Pinkie Pie's plan for Rainbow's birthday party, something they knew meant so much to Pinkie. She was devastated. The Mane 6 shouldn't have even let the "Goof Off" occur. A good friend would have apologized right there instead of holding some sort of competition to decide who gets the "right" to throw Rainbow's birthday party when it should have been Pinkie's right in the first place.

Really? I thought Pinkie was the worst behaved one in the whole episode, coming across as just a terrible, selfish, unkind person overall. Nobody abandoned Pinkie, and if she'd just talked to any of them like she always does she'd have known that and the whole story wouldn't have happened.

[Silver Letter 1,832]

 

 

I think there can be other methods, such as reviewing the complexities of bullying, what makes a bully tick, and what methods you can solve it without having to go with the destructive clichés presented in OBA.

Sounds hilariously boring. This is show meant to entertain. It's not a PSA.

[VitalSpark 1,830]

The character who uses science, Twilight, is the antagonist and akin to a straw man.

No, Twilight is (unusually for her) not the character who uses science in this episode.

 

A scientist, upon making an observation that contradicts their hypothesis, abandons their hypothesis, replacing it with a new hypothesis that is supported by the evidence. This is the key to the scientific method.

 

There is evidence that Pinkie Sense works, but Twilight chooses to ignore that evidence in favour of sticking to a hypothesis that's been shown to be incorrect.

 

It's only at the end of the episode where Twilight abandons her hypothesis that Pinkie can't predict the future, that she shows the makings of a good scientist.

[Dulset Tarn 441]

No, Twilight is (unusually for her) not the character who uses science in this episode.

 

A scientist, upon making an observation that contradicts their hypothesis, abandons their hypothesis, replacing it with a new hypothesis that is supported by the evidence. This is the key to the scientific method.

 

There is evidence that Pinkie Sense works, but Twilight chooses to ignore that evidence in favour of sticking to a hypothesis that's been shown to be incorrect.

 

It's only at the end of the episode where Twilight abandons her hypothesis that Pinkie can't predict the future, that she shows the makings of a good scientist.

Thus the strawman scientist.

 

Speaking of which, damn, remember Twilight used to have a basement?

Edited January 16, 2015 by Dulset Tarn

[Dark Qiviut 22,387]

Sounds hilariously boring. This is show meant to entertain. It's not a PSA.

When you're writing an episode as complex as bullying, it's more important to deliver a strong message about it than to entertain. Entertain without proper research will sink the writing. For a subject like bullying, even more important. One Bad Apple might've had some entertainment, but executed it through some extremely dangerous clichés that damn the integrity of the show. The episode would've been far better at a PSA and examination of bullying than for pure laughs.

 

@, Uh, no. Each time Twilight chooses not to believe Pinkie, she gets beaten up at the story's expense. Cartoon logic may be okay for a show like this, but what made the slapstick really fail is how Twilight comes out of each moment in a lot of pain. In addition, shows like Warner Bros. could get away with the slapstick because they want you, the audience, to laugh at the villain for getting his comeuppance. Instead, Twilight is a likeable character, and the show isn't designed for this brand of humor.

 

Once more, the poor language construction turned what was supposed to be an examination of Pinkie's Pinkie Sense into a false debate between creationism and science. The conflict between Twilight (who used science and remained stubborn in her belief) and Pinkie and Twilight's role as the antagonist accentuated this conflict.

 

Not to mention, Twilight is saved via the Pinkie Sense at absolutely one of the dumbest moments of the entire show, accepting Pinkie's word and risking death. My point about Twilight being a straw character still stands.

Edited January 16, 2015 by Dark Qiviut

[VitalSpark 1,830]

 

 

Remember Twilight used to have a basement?

 

I assume it still does, but you don't see it very often on account of the fact that horses don't tend to like going up and down stairs.

[Miles 2,512]

Really? I thought Pinkie was the worst behaved one in the whole episode, coming across as just a terrible, selfish, unkind person overall. Nobody abandoned Pinkie, and if she'd just talked to any of them like she always does she'd have known that and the whole story wouldn't have happened.

 

Whoa whoa... 

 

First of all, Pinkie Pie has a a sort of psychological issue in which she becomes sullen when the ponies who are supposed to be her friends don't pay attention to her.  She doesn't on her own choose to be sad or mad because of this; it just naturally happens because that's how her mind works.  Not only is she obviously an extroverted pony, but she is literally driven and motivated by the feeling of being connected with her friends.  She doesn't narcissistically expect attention because she thinks she is better; she psychologically needs it to be happy.  So when she was replaced by a random newbie, she felt betrayed.  

 

Second of all, Cheese stole her position.  Completely apart from the psychological aspect --- that was Pinkie's appointed job!  She was already told that she was going to be the one to make the party.  How would you like it if you were initially accepted for a job position, but then the first day of work you come in and see that someone else was hired and took your place?  

 

Pinkie is not selfish.  If anypony, Rainbow Dash behaved selfishly in the episode...

 

Furthermore, "talked to any of them like she always" - what?  Correct me if I'm wrong, but we've seen evidence in multiple episodes that the ponies are able to detect when something is wrong with their friend.  Pinkie's "oh it's okay" skit was very transparent, and so the logic that one of her friends should have noticed her false behavior overpowers the "talked to any of them like she always" idea.

 

---

 

Aside from all this, I still enjoyed the episode, but I have to agree with Rivendare, especially this:

 

As much as I love "Pinkie Pride", the way Pinkie's friends treated her was very questionable and mean-spirited. It implies that friendship isn't as important as they normally paint it out to be in the show.

 

I did like the episode, but if I'm going to be totally honest...

 

I don't care if Weird Al did voice the part, Cheese Sandwich is a complete ****head.  

 

~ Miles

[Dulset Tarn 441]

I assume it still does, but you don't see it very often on account of the fact that horses don't tend to like going up and down stairs.

Uh, I kinda doubt it's still there.

 

 

Whoa whoa... 

 

First of all, Pinkie Pie has a a sort of psychological issue in which she becomes sullen when the ponies who are supposed to be her friends don't pay attention to her.  She doesn't on her own choose to be sad or mad because of this; it just naturally happens because that's how her mind works.  Not only is she obviously an extroverted pony, but she is literally driven and motivated by the feeling of being connected with her friends.  She doesn't narcissistically expect attention because she thinks she is better; she psychologically needs it to be happy.  So when she was replaced by a random newbie, she felt betrayed. 

So you're making excuses for her terrible behavior on the grounds that she has a mental illness.

 

 

Furthermore, "talked to any of them like she always" - what?  Correct me if I'm wrong, but we've seen evidence in multiple episodes that the ponies are able to detect when something is wrong with their friend.  Pinkie's "oh it's okay" skit was very transparent, and so the logic that one of her friends should have noticed her false behavior overpowers the "talked to any of them like she always" idea.

That is completely irrelevant and that made no sense at all.

[Silver Letter 1,832]

 

 

The episode would've been far better at a PSA and examination of bullying than for pure laughs.

I am not sold on that because the target audience is six year olds. Do children that young relate to the true nature of bullying? If so then perhaps you have a point. But would a show that takes itself too seriously be worth watching from the target audience's point of view?

[Dulset Tarn 441]

Dark Qiviut, on 15 Jan 2015 - 8:08 PM, said:

The episode would've been far better at a PSA and examination of bullying than for pure laughs.

 

I am not sold on that because the target audience is six year olds. Do children that young relate to the true nature of bullying? If so then perhaps you have a point. But would a show that takes itself too seriously be worth watching from the target audience's point of view?

 

Wait, you mean it wasn't a PSA? Because it wasn't funny, or charming, or clever or entertaining, or anything at all that Friendship is Magic is. It never tried to subvert an expectation. It was just a completely by the books bullying episode, same as you can find in any kids' show.

[Miles 2,512]

So you're making excuses for her terrible behavior on the grounds that she has a mental illness.

 

Yes, actually.  

 

More than likely, she has Dissociative Identity Disorder.

 

Links: Web MD; Wikipedia; NAMI.

 

Personality disorders are very real, and whether or not Hasbro purposely wanted this to occur with Pinkie or not, the evidence is stacked.

 

---

 

That is completely irrelevant and that made no sense at all.

 

"Party of One" - Season 1, Episode 25.

"Pinkie Pride" - Season 4, Episode 12.

 

Pinkie's friends saw what can happen to her when she is ignored in Season 1.

 

Any good friends should know their friend well enough to know that she has personality issues, and needs to be treated respectfully.

 

It's not irrelevant, and it makes complete sense.  I'm sorry if you can't understand that.  But when Pinkie pretended to not care about Cheese Sandwich and everything else, her behavior was very indicative that something was wrong.

 

~ Miles

[Guest90210 3,568]

So you're making excuses for her terrible behavior on the grounds that she has a mental illness.

 

On top of what Miles said, what did Pinkie do that as so "terrible"?

[Dulset Tarn 441]

It's not irrelevant, and it makes complete sense.  I'm sorry if you can't understand that.  But when Pinkie pretended to not care about Cheese Sandwich and everything else, her behavior was very indicative that something was wrong.

And how does that in the slightest change the fact that Pinkie has always always been known to actually approach her friends about these sorts of problems?

 

Griffon the Brush Off

Party of One

A Friend in Deed

 

Among others. This is the ONLY episode where she just lies to her friends about having problems (especially Twilight) because the plot needed her to be stupid. You don't get to just ignore that because her friends maybe should have noticed her actively hidden emotions.

On top of what Miles said, what did Pinkie do that as so "terrible"?

Well, she forgot how to be nice, she abandoned her cooperative nature, she never tried to communicate, she lied to her friends, forgot about her best friend's happiness, and then she tried to run the nicest guy in the world out of town because she was jealous and prideful.

 

In essence, not only was she a terrible person, but she specifically acted against every single thing that makes Pinkie Pie who she is, a pony who is an instant friend to anyone who walks into town, a pony who saw everything Gilda did and still threw her a party, a pony who more than anything else cares about making her friends smile. And most importantly, a pony who has never once felt jealousy or pride.

[Miles 2,512]

And how does that in the slightest change the fact that Pinkie has always always been known to actually approach her friends about these sorts of problems?

 

Griffon the Brush Off

Party of One

A Friend in Deed

 

Among others. This is the ONLY episode where she just lies to her friends about having problems (especially Twilight) because the plot needed her to be stupid. You don't get to just ignore that because her friends maybe should have noticed her actively hidden emotions.

 

In "Griffon the Brush Off" she wasn't ignored but was treated poorly by someone who wasn't her friend to begin with.  Plus, she stayed positive the whole time she was at Gilda's party.  Once RD learned that Gilda was a *****, she apologized to Pinkie.  Point is, Pinkie wasn't ignored in this episode....  Thus, invalid point.

 

In "Party of One" was ignored (indirectly), and her emotions went crazy.  Her friends learned at the end that Pinkie Pie is distrustful of secrets, and that she has personality issues...

 

Whiiich was my point in my previous response, and literally only makes my point stronger when you bring it up to back your argument erroneously...

 

"A Friend In Deed"???

 

The lesson of this episode just makes my argument stronger, so thank you bringing it up!

 

Pinkie will give up at nothing to make friends with anyone.  And she was successful.

 

Plus, 

 

"The title is a word play on the saying, "A friend in need is a friend indeed.""

 

Which actually describes Pinkie Pie, too!  She won't ignore those who need her!

 

---

 

Pinkie Pie needs her friends' attention, and they ignore that fact to let Cheese Sandwich take her place!

 

---

 

Pinkie didn't act stupid, btw.  She acted lonely and betrayed.  If you think people who act lonely and betrayed are acting stupid, then you probably have some personality issues of your own to tend to - no offence.  

 

 

And how does that in the slightest change the fact that Pinkie has always always been known to actually approach her friends about these sorts of problems?

 

Because she felt the nicer thing to do was accept her defeat and allow Cheese Sandwich to plan the party.

 

Basically, the opposite of selfishness.

 

~ Miles

[Admiral Regulus 2,769]

Well said. I would add to this, but I'm not sure what more I can say. Pinkie Pride is one of my favorite episodes, and it's why I've come to love Pinkie so much. She felt lonely and betrayed—rightfully so, I might add. Considering the way she reacted to the situation, I have utmost respect for her.

[Jeric 46,851]

Ok, I'm opening this. A good amount of a page is gone.

 

Here is the thing. We welcome debate. I personally love reading the discussions centered around the show - and this topic especially is captivating me. I know we love this show, its characters, this world. But sometimes that appreciation can lead to you to a strong desire to defend your views too aggressively. 

 

Take a step back and and a deep breath. Civility makes for a more approachable discussion thread. 

[Dulset Tarn 441]

Hmm, I guess there's also Trade Ya, where Twilight (a librarian) learns that instead of giving books to children, the kind of books that made her into the pony she is today, she should instead hold onto them forever so no one can read them.