Celestia, from a good character to a bad one

[DarkSwap7701 16]

Now Princess Celestia was the first princess to ever be introduced to the show, being constantly referenced in episode 1 and making her first appearance in episode 2. In S1 and S2, she was portrayed in a way which I thought made her similar to Albus Dumbledore from Harry Potter. She never really did anything but she was constantly pushing Twilight and the rest of the mane six in the right direction.

 

For example: she told Twilight she needed to make friends because that was the only way the elements could truly free her sister from evil in Friendship is Magic, and she sent back the friendship letters to Twilight when she lost hope with her friends in Return of Harmony. She also felt like a strong and assertive leader, and one that you didn't mess with at all. Although being hospitable and playful, she was often very intimidating to be around, and you got the sense that she was extremely powerful. She cared for her subjects safety deeply though, and was willing to give up everything to ensure that.

 

However, in season 3, she changed into a stupid, manipulative, and weak leader that should not be allowed to rule the country. This started in The Crystal Empire, when she not only used lives as a means to an end, but also told Twilight the wrong information for her little test so that EVERYONE in the Crystal Empire could have easily have been killed. What's worse is that she sat there for the whole 2 parter and did nothing. In the first 3 2 parters there was always a good reason why she stayed in Canterlot, but in this one she was just lazy and wanted other people to do the work for her.

 

This got worse in Keep Calm and Flutter On, where she attempted to reform one of the most dangerous and evil beings to ever rule Equestria, and the one which tormented ponies so much that she and her sister had to use the elements against him. And she got stupider AGAIN in Twilight's Kingdom, when she not only entrusted Discord with a very important and dangerous mission, (even though in Threes A Crowd it was obvious he wasn't taking his reformation seriously), and then sat there and did nothing whilst Tirek stormed the face of her country absorbing magic, waiting for Twilight to come a long and do the work for her, which by that point they had to hide their magic as he had grown so powerful. She then placed an extremely dangerous and risky gamble by giving up her magic to Twilight in the same episode.

 

Princess Celestia is a character who is beyond saving at this point. She has made so many stupid mistakes, and her character has changed into one that I do not like. I'm not sure how DHX COULD save her at this point.

 

Any ideas?

Edited March 22, 2015 by DarkSwap7701

[I love Jelly Otter 477]

Princess Celestia's heel period.  Like it or change a channel.

[Nuke87654 1,849]

I would say to save her, the following need to occur.

 

1. They need to have her go and save the mane 6 and/or the kingdom in some capacity that doesn't put her on the sideline observing. Remind the audience that she can be a terrifying presence in battle when she is pissed off, and to especially stop whacking her with the worf bat just to jobber up a villain as it's not only a cheap way to treat a strong powered character, but it actually makes future villains look worse as nobody is going to take you beating up a weak character seriously. 

 

A lesser but good examples are Celestia's actions in Return of Harmony where as soon as the mane 6 were beaten by Discord, she immediately sent letters to Spike in a hail mary move to save them, or how Celestia tried but failed to defend her kingdom from Queen Chrysalis.

 

 

2. Dedicate an or episodes designed to build Celestia's character up. Princess Luna has an arc going on with the CMC's that is building her in a positive direction in character. Celestia needs something similar in that regard so we can start bonding with her and feel her as a more benevolent leader that watches and cares for her people that she was originally built up to be instead of a malicious fool.

 

3. Remember the Nightmare Moon backstory? How about we see through Celestia's perspective and actually see the pains she had to go through after banishing her sister. We'd like to imagine Luna suffering in her imprisonment but yet not alot are imagining of just what Celestia had to go through for banishing her sister. Dedicate an episode showing us of how much Celestia has suffered trying to save her sister and all the years and plans that failed but never gave up saving her sister as Lauren Faust had envisioned her doing. The love for Celestia in the fandom will go up expediently from it.

Edited March 22, 2015 by Nuke87654

[Nuke87654 1,849]

Princess Celestia's heel period.  Like it or change a channel.

 

Instead of discussing how it can be fixed? Not many are just going to tolerate what they're seeing Celestia doing in the recent episodes on the show and would like that to be changed in a more positive direction for her.

[Princess Oceangem 61]

Here are the steps

1.Show what happens when she's away from her throne (aka Luna making bad decisions :evil face: )

2. Let her do some actual fighting(!)

3.Give her a new student ( I know she already found Twi to be her heir but maybe just to help young unicorns unlock their potential)

4. Expand on her backstory (like when we saw what banishing Luna was like from her perspective)

5. MORE. SCREEN. TIME.

Edited March 22, 2015 by Princess Oceangem

[I love Jelly Otter 477]

Just like with how it's in the WWE programs - maybe I too don't like a certain character acting different now compared to early times... but, LOL! What can I do about it anyway?  Either watch how it is or change a channel!   

Are you from the board of MLP:FIM writers or have someone there you're in touch with to suggest them how it should be written instead?   

[Wind Chaser 4,768]

It's true, Celestia went from the archetypical wise and benevolent mentor character to one who is bungling and manipulating situations in order to force Twilight to show her hand. It's a case of plot-induced stupidity. In every two-parter since "The Crystal Empire", the narrative was forced to show off Twilight's prowess, so it used every device in the book to take all real support the rest of the cast had out of the plot. Season 5, hopefully, seems to be putting into the Mane 6's hooves situations that they are uniquely suited to solve, so hopefully less of those narrative shortcomings should be evident.

Edited March 23, 2015 by Wind Chaser

[Dark Qiviut 22,378]

Princess Celestia's heel period.  Like it or change a channel.

 

Just like with how it's in the WWE programs - maybe I too don't like a certain character acting different now compared to early times... but, LOL! What can I do about it anyway?  Either watch how it is or change a channel!   

Are you from the board of MLP:FIM writers or have someone there you're in touch with to suggest them how it should be written instead?   

Your comparison makes no sense. WWE programming runs in real time, and the script can flip on a dime depending on audience reception. In 2001, Stone Cold Steve Austin turned heel and sided with Vince after spending years kicking his ass. Following Survivor Series 2001, he turned face in response to growing negative reception against his heel persona. (In fact, he was supposed to turn face during the early Invasion in June/July, but Triple H got injured.)

 

In Friendship Is Magic, the scripts are locked at least a year prior to airing. When we see how these characters act, we're going to critique what they do, and these analyses and reviews are there to tell DHX why they worked or not. Telling people to "change the channel" in response to negative criticism of the show is disparaging to the quality of the show and especially kids.

 

Since A Canterlot Wedding, Celestia's character has degraded into a shell of herself, and the show doesn't do much to help fix it. Instead of stifling criticism, why not call out DHX for writing her poorly and suggest improving it instead?

Edited March 23, 2015 by Dark Qiviut

[I love Jelly Otter 477]

@ Dark Qiviut

 

Dude, you're replying to an outdated post.  There was a much better & telling post by me as a reply to Mr. DarkSwap7701 post, but unfortunately they both are suddenly gone just like Mr. DarkSwap7701 himself.

[Singe 2,111]

Since Princess Celestia has lived 1000 years and only recently taken on two apprentices Sunset Shimmer and Twilight Sparkle, with the ultimate end goal to make an Alicorn Princess. My guess is that Princess Celestia's power has diminished and she's no longer in her prime. Old age finally got to her.

[Yellow Diamond 7,566]

Just a quick note: a number of off-topic posts were removed from this thread. This is why there are gaps in the conversation.

 

Although the topic starter is no longer a member here, feel free to continue the conversation.

 

If anyone has any further questions, shoot me a PM.

[marshmallowminish 183]

She's not manipulative at all- she, instead, tests her subjects and those she deems worthy in a hands-on way; which may seem controversial- but she would always step into something she knows that Twilight and the rest of the Mane 6 couldn't handle. Princess Celestia had full confidence that her faithful friends could break through and save the day- why would she want to swoop in every time if she's trying to help the Mane 6? It's like trying to teach your kid how to ride a bike, but you never take their training wheels off- just to a higher, and of course, more dangerous extent. I personally believe that Celestia is a great leader.

[Nuke87654 1,849]

@ Dark Qiviut

 

Dude, you're replying to an outdated post.  There was a much better & telling post by me as a reply to Mr. DarkSwap7701 post, but unfortunately they both are suddenly gone just like Mr. DarkSwap7701 himself.

 

But your post mainly relies on a past personal experience with how you're so bitter with people doing discussions about a character as you believe it is pointless and that creators aren't going to fix and solve the issues you present because they can't or don't want to.

 

Here's mine, when I requested on a forum to do a balance change on a character because I didn't like how poor it was. Despite opposition from one of the game's top players, the balance team actually went ahead and fixed it to where I requested it. It ended up being an excellent balance fix that even the top player admitted it was a good change.

 

Just because you had one bad experience suggesting a change to something you considered wrong doesn't mean everyone else will either. Finally, using it as a crux for why we can't discuss the problems one of the characters on the show doesn't make yourself look good in a topic designed specifically to discuss what problems she has. If you don't think it's bad enough, then argue why it isn't instead of essentially telling us a topic is pointless because you don't want us to discuss about a show as concerned fans.

[Castle Bleck 19,319]

Will Season 5 finally end her Ron The Death Eater status?

 

Find out on the next exciting episode of... Pony Ball Z!

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K1p713CTz0Q

[I love Jelly Otter 477]

@ Mr. Nuke87654   - You might be probably right that I see a lot of things being pointless by common sense or by judgment of the whole image of what's happening in the media everywhere. But by no means I would go & directly try to stop people from discussing stuff!  I mean, it's fun anyway, just like me writing a reply to a random person in the Internet when I could have been doing better stuff with this moment.  But I take the opportunity & make pointless or not participations in everyone's discussions just cause it's actual for this moment & something I'm interested in right now.

[Nuke87654 1,849]

She's not manipulative at all- she, instead, tests her subjects and those she deems worthy in a hands-on way; which may seem controversial- but she would always step into something she knows that Twilight and the rest of the Mane 6 couldn't handle. Princess Celestia had full confidence that her faithful friends could break through and save the day- why would she want to swoop in every time if she's trying to help the Mane 6? It's like trying to teach your kid how to ride a bike, but you never take their training wheels off- just to a higher, and of course, more dangerous extent. I personally believe that Celestia is a great leader.

 

Our issue mainly stems with how post S2 Celestia's actions has been pretty idiotic when on screen.

 

It's a troubling trend we're seeing with Celestia where we see her sitting around and let's Twilight solve something on her own despite telling her the importance of friendships that nearly doomed Twilight and the Crystal Empire to Sombra (Crystal Empire), trusts a dubious character over her far more trust worthy subjects she could've chosen and gives up all their remaining magic to their least experienced alicorn in Twilight and tells her to hide them (Twilight's Kingdom).

@ Mr. Nuke87654   - You might be probably right that I see a lot of things being pointless by common sense or by judgment of the whole image of what's happening in the media everywhere. But by no means I would go & directly try to stop people from discussing stuff!  I mean, it's fun anyway, just like me writing a reply to a random person in the Internet when I could have been doing better stuff with this moment.  But I take the opportunity & make pointless or not participations in everyone's discussions just cause it's actual for this moment & something I'm interested in right now.

 

It's what's so fun at being a fan for me and many others are though. Discussing materials and stuff with like minded peers for something we all care about because we want to see it being better.

[LightFlicker 91]

*I MAY BE WRONG* but .... what if Princess celestia is testing the strength of twilight so that one day she can take over celestia's kingdom, because may be something is going to happen like celestia and luna dying or something idk, this might be a stupid idea....

[ArcheoPony 76]

Celestia's decline started when McCarthy took over, she really doesn't seem to know what to do with her character. Just an episode exploring Celestia's character, and a couple of throwaway lines in it about some of her decision could reset her back to a similar path she was at the beginning of the series.

[Pastel 7,630]

*I MAY BE WRONG* but .... what if Princess celestia is testing the strength of twilight so that one day she can take over celestia's kingdom, because may be something is going to happen like celestia and luna dying or something idk, this might be a stupid idea....

Yes that's what I think too, Celestia won't always be here to help the mane 6.

If she keeps on helping them all the time, they won't be able to deal with problems on their own once Celestia and Luna are gone for whatever reason. So she teaches them to take risks.

Plus she's the princess of a whole continent, she must be quite busy.

Edited March 23, 2015 by Blobulle

[Zoraxe 546]

She's not manipulative at all

 

She totally is manipulative.

http://mlpforums.com/topic/49755-s03e13-magical-mystery-cure/page-68

 

It must be hard to write for a character like Celestia, they treat her as flawless, but that makes her flaws stick out for the audience.

[Nuke87654 1,849]

She totally is manipulative.

http://mlpforums.com/topic/49755-s03e13-magical-mystery-cure/page-68

 

It must be hard to write for a character like Celestia, they treat her as flawless, but that makes her flaws stick out for the audience.

It's sad to see that as a Celestia fan.

 

Just a Celestia episode designed to flesh her character and write her better going forward out is all I ask ;-; as a disappointed fan of hers.

Edited March 24, 2015 by Nuke87654