gaming Doom Thread [Cute Cacos Inside]

Light Rain · July 16, 2015

Welcome to the Doom Thread!

Recommended reading:
The most misunderstood game of all time
The Masters of Doom

Where can I get it?
On Steam of course! But you only really need DOOM.WAD and DOOM2.WAD, because you will be using source ports to play.

Source ports? What are those?
Doom was released in 1993 and it was made open source in 1997. Since then many people created new versions based on that code - we call these versions source ports. There are many of them because they all try to achieve something different. Here are some of the more commonly used ones:
Chocolate Doom - This port tries to keep it as close to the original (vanilla) DOOM.EXE as possible. If you are looking for a retro feel, give it a shot.
PrBoom+ - This port Increases the resolution, removes many limitations that the original had in terms of map size and adds new features for mapmakers. Many map packs require it for playing.
GZDoom - This port adds even more features for mapmakers, more scripting options and 3D lighting effects.

If you are unsure which one to get, go with PrBoom+; it has the classic Doom feel while making it possible to play newer and bigger mappacks.

So how do these mappacks work?
Doom was one of the first if not the first game which was designed with modding in mind. All game data is in WAD files (WAD stands for "Where's All the Data?"). The game requires a so called IWAD file to run, which are the official WAD files, and after that it's possible to add user made PWAD files which can change levels, textures and other stuff.
There are a huge amount of WAD files out there for Doom, but I collected a list of great megawads for your convenience. (Megawads are wads which replace all 32 levels in the game)

Scythe
Smaller, shorter levels.

Scythe 2

Alien Vendetta

Deus Vult 2

Epic 2
Egyptian themed, huge levels.

Speed of Doom
Huge levels, fast paced action with tons of enemies.

Going Down
Clear out an office building floor by floor. Many interesting gimmicks.

Sunder
A really nice looking and really difficult wad.

How to get it working:

Extract your source port of choice into a folder somewhere.
Install Doom1-2 on Steam, find its folder and copy DOOM.WAD and/or DOOM2.WAD into your source port folder.
If you start your source port it will find all the wad files and will let you choose which one you'd like to play.
If you want to play a megawad, just extract it anywhere, and drag the wad file onto the exe of your source port. If asked, select DOOM2.WAD as the IWAD to use, all the megawads listed above are based on Doom 2.
If you are familiar with the console, you can also start the game like this:
```
yourport.exe -iwad DOOM2.WAD -file path/to/your.wad
```

If you want to play megawads but don't have Doom, you can use Freedoom. It serves as a free software alternative to the commercial Doom files. It replaces all textures and sprites. The replacements aren't nearly as nice as the original ones, but it is free. Just use it in place of DOOM2.WAD.

Can I make my own maps?
Sure! Take a look at Doom Builder 2, a very easy to use level editor for Doom. Doom didn't allow rooms to be placed over rooms, which simplifies mapping a whole lot. You can literally draw the layout of your level.
See the tutorials page on how to get started.

I'm interested in programming and I'm curious about the inner workings of Doom.
You should read Fabien Sanglard's great article about how the Doom engine works! He also has articles about most other games by id, Duke Nukem 3D and other classic games.
The Doom Wiki also has a wealth of information.

So Doom has an active community?
Very much so! There are still mapping competitions, collabs, etc. going on, and great megawads come out every year.
Doomworld and its forums are a great place to read about classic Doom.

Also some tumbler pages about Doom:
http://the-goddamn-doomguy.tumblr.com/
http://doommonsters.tumblr.com/

And check out alice88, who drew all the cute Doom pics I've posted everywhere in the OP.

Light Rain · July 24, 2015

Doom is on sale today on Steam. Get it if you still don't have it!

http://store.steampowered.com/sub/18397/

Trixio · July 24, 2015

Doom .. I played this game so many years ago.I did not know that it had an active community.

Nuke87654 · July 24, 2015

A full recommendation as someone who had recently posted a review on the first Doom game itself: https://mlpforums.com/blog/1573/entry-17291-doom-video-game-review/

Especially as they're right now on sale at Steam: http://store.steampowered.com/sub/18397/. I'd get it now as Bethesda is rather notorious for how cheap (in a bad way) they are with the sales of their games.

July 24, 2015

I am super excited for the Doom reboot coming out.

Also I have the Cacodemon and the Pain Elemental plushies:

Light Rain · July 24, 2015

A full recommendation as someone who had recently posted a review on the first Doom game itself: https://mlpforums.com/blog/1573/entry-17291-doom-video-game-review/

Especially as they're right now on sale at Steam: http://store.steampowered.com/sub/18397/. I'd get it now as Bethesda is rather notorious for how cheap (in a bad way) they are with the sales of their games.

Thank you for not mentioning Brutal Doom in your review. It really irks me when people say that you need BD to enjoy Doom, or that it "makes Doom Doomier".

I guess this is as good a time as any for me to elaborate and rant a bit about BD. I don't have a problem with BD existing because Doom owes its longevity to mods, so I'm thankful for all mods, even the bad ones. Gameplay mods are fine when someone wants to try something different, something new, but when a new player's first experience with Doom is e.g. BD + Deus Vult 2, and they don't understand why they are having an incredibly hard time, it makes me mad.

Doom has a perfect arsenal and bestiary, where everything has a purpose. The changes introduced by BD are often times baffling and seem to have no reasoning behind them. Here are a list of things BD changes that I thought of in the last few days:

It lets you pick up Revenant and Mancubus weapons, breaking the weapon progression intended by the designer.

It adds grenades allowing players to dispatch enemies that are not in line of sight.

It adds jumping and crouching which can completely break levels, as the original Doom had none of these.

Zombies can do these ridiculously fast siderolls to dodge shots when they were intentionally designed to be fragile and slow to balance the fact that they have hitscan attacks.

Some weapons now do self-damage when some encounters require point blank plasma or bfg shots.

Movement speed has been made slower and monsters were made faster, again, probably breaking custom wads in ways I can't even imagine.

BD also adds pointless gore and cruel death animations. I don't want to listen to the 20 second death rattle of an imp, nor do I want to see faces distorted by pain.

The other thing that is often said is "BD makes Doom Doomier" and I find this really annoying. What makes Doom Doom is subjective on some level, but personally I think violence is not really central to Doom. It's true that violence plays a part in the great art design and excellent gunfeel that Doom has, but what I think makes Doom unique to this day is the tools it provides for mappers to create fast paced encounters requiring fast thinking. To me, the gameplay of Doom is about quick thinking, improvisation, prioritization, positioning, dodging.

Let me copy here what the creator of Deus Vult 2, an avid chess player, thinks about Doom encounter design, from the DV2 textfile:

Chess had a huge influence on my thought process, and this carried over

to creating DVII. The order and method of building an attack and defense

in Chess affected the way many of the DVII maps were laid out.

Certain concepts in Chess like balanced position, Zwischenzug, Zugzwang,

interposition, space control, pressure, discovered attack, and forced

combination were considered and applied when choreographing DVII fights.

Furthermore, the chess games that I played in the past were very much

part of my thought when I constructed DVII's maps. Recalling

the Ruy Lopez, Maroczy's Bind, King's Indian, Sicilian Dragon, Queen's

Gambit Declined, and the Hedgehog Defense, I constructed Doom Maps with

Chess in mind. Many of the maps' layouts are pervaded by dynamically

balanced designs that is learned through studying dynamic balance in Chess.

Map20 of DVII is a strong example of the Chess influence, with the natural,

non-teleport monsters traps that simply springs from the map's sneaky

layout. The Beserk trap on the uppermost level of Map20 is a reflection of

a forced combination, with low health, the player is compelled to pick up

the stimpack, entering the trap full of imps, grabbing the beserk as a

counterattack, and then confronting the counter-counterattacking hell

knight. In the yellow key complex, the two barons of hell were placed like

two rooks on open files, firing down the corridor and putting pressure on

the player's position and enducing him to make a mistake. The final archvile

after taking the blue armor was placed in a way that parallels the black

fianchettoed bishop in the Sicilian Dragon Yugoslav Attack opening, firing

down the most crucial control point in the room.

The intense analytical process bred from studying and playing Chess built a

strong foundation for Doom Mapping. Each monster is a Chess Piece waiting

to be placed in the correct position on the mapping board. As a Chess

player engage in deep thought before executing a complex maneuver

over the board, a Doom Mapper (should) ponder deeply about how a firefight

will unfold in his level, as this will lead to better map layout, and

ultimately, better gameplay.

Wanna get better at choreographing Doom monster fights? Play Chess, play

lots of Chess... RIP Bobby Fischer.

This is also brought up in an article I linked in the OP, The most misunderstood game of all time, which I would still recommend if you want to read more about why Doom is great.

Nuke87654 · July 24, 2015

Thank you for not mentioning Brutal Doom in your review. It really irks me when people say that you need BD to enjoy Doom, or that it "makes Doom Doomier".

I guess this is as good a time as any for me to elaborate and rant a bit about BD. I don't have a problem with BD existing because Doom owes its longevity to mods, so I'm thankful for all mods, even the bad ones. Gameplay mods are fine when someone wants to try something different, something new, but when a new player's first experience with Doom is e.g. BD + Deus Vult 2, and they don't understand why they are having an incredibly hard time, it makes me mad.

Doom has a perfect arsenal and bestiary, where everything has a purpose. The changes introduced by BD are often times baffling and seem to have no reasoning behind them. Here are a list of things BD changes that I thought of in the last few days:

It lets you pick up Revenant and Mancubus weapons, breaking the weapon progression intended by the designer.

It adds grenades allowing players to dispatch enemies that are not in line of sight.

It adds jumping and crouching which can completely break levels, as the original Doom had none of these.

Zombies can do these ridiculously fast siderolls to dodge shots when they were intentionally designed to be fragile and slow to balance the fact that they have hitscan attacks.

Some weapons now do self-damage when some encounters require point blank plasma or bfg shots.

Movement speed has been made slower and monsters were made faster, again, probably breaking custom wads in ways I can't even imagine.

BD also adds pointless gore and cruel death animations. I don't want to listen to the 20 second death rattle of an imp, nor do I want to see faces distorted by pain.

The other thing that is often said is "BD makes Doom Doomier" and I find this really annoying. What makes Doom Doom is subjective on some level, but personally I think violence is not really central to Doom. It's true that violence plays a part in the great art design and excellent gunfeel that Doom has, but what I think makes Doom unique to this day is the tools it provides for mappers to create fast paced encounters requiring fast thinking. To me, the gameplay of Doom is about quick thinking, improvisation, prioritization, positioning, dodging.

Let me copy here what the creator of Deus Vult 2, an avid chess player, thinks about Doom encounter design, from the DV2 textfile:

This is also brought up in an article I linked in the OP, The most misunderstood game of all time, which I would still recommend if you want to read more about why Doom is great.

Excellent points. I didn't brought up Brutal Doom on account that was the one request Jeric had for my review when going the reviewing process, don't talk or mention Brutal Doom and it's over the top gore. This actually led me to do a bit of research on Brutal Doom where I grew to dislike the creator of Brutal Doom. To put it sufficiently, he has a huge ego to the point he's been banned by two of the largest doom community forums and cannot use their forums to promote his new updates to Brutal Doom. Thus I actually went and tried out Brutal Doom Sperg edition to where I was able to enjoy Brutal Doom without supporting the mod creator himself.

However, hearing those changes did caused me to be annoyed as at that point, instead of playing Doom itself, you might as well be playing a Quake version of Doom only if both went overboard with the gore and violence and unnecessary changes. Not to say Quake is bad or anything, in fact it's great from what I've heard.

You're right that Doom is popular to me for it's fantastic gunplay, map and level designs, enemy balancing, interesting setting and theme (Technology vs. Demons as John Carmack aptly put it). The violence helps but if I wanted to like a game for violence purely, I'd enjoy games like Manhunt or Crusader no remorse. I like the many aesthetic changes Brutal Doom and such inspired mods did, but the melee synch kills if it lasts too long starts detracting away from the quick fast paced action that made Doom famed. Hearing those changes that I didn't saw in Brutal Doom would've turned me off from the game.

I'll need to keep your words archived if I ever to get a review on a Doom mod if things permit for me to do it.

Also nice find of that post and especially of finding Beautiful Doom for me to use on my next run of Doom.

Edited July 24, 2015 by Nuke87654

July 24, 2015

I think there is too much hate for BD. While it may not be a "necessary" mod, I think it needs to be said that it did a lot for Doom, and it's clear that with the new Doom game coming out it drew a lot of inspirations from it. While classic Doom is still great, BD is by no means a terrible mod. It definitely increases the challenge and makes for a fresh experience.

Nuke87654 · July 24, 2015

I think there is too much hate for BD. While it may not be a "necessary" mod, I think it needs to be said that it did a lot for Doom, and it's clear that with the new Doom game coming out it drew a lot of inspirations from it. While classic Doom is still great, BD is by no means a terrible mod. It definitely increases the challenge and makes for a fresh experience.

I just dislike how it has ingrained many gamers with the idea that Doom is about being over the top violent when that's not what the original Doom experience was entirely about. It helped of course and it did helped bring more popularity to Doom despite being 20+ year old game and it is a good mod, it's just an overrated one for many reasons for me and Lightrain. However, what I, Light Rain, and others are concerned about is that people are going to believe Doom is good because of the violence rather than because that's part of the recipe to whole cake that made it great in the first place. Doom 4's vid had me concerned they were inspired by Brutal Doom with the melee synch kills along with other things. Hopefully the game can prove interesting to this long time fan of Doom such as myself.

That One Techpriest You Used To Know · July 24, 2015

Doom thread?

DOOMDOOMDOOMDOOMDOOMDOOMDOOMDOOMDOOMDOOM-

Oops, not that Doom.

To be honest, Doom is one of those games I haven't played. Perhaps I should look into it.

July 24, 2015

I just dislike how it has ingrained many gamers with the idea that Doom is about being over the top violent when that's not what the original Doom experience was entirely about. It helped of course and it did helped bring more popularity to Doom despite being 20+ year old game and it is a good mod, it's just an overrated one for many reasons for me and Lightrain. However, what I, Light Rain, and others are concerned about is that people are going to believe Doom is good because of the violence rather than because that's part of the recipe to whole cake that made it great in the first place. Doom 4's vid had me concerned they were inspired by Brutal Doom with the melee synch kills along with other things. Hopefully the game can prove interesting to this long time fan of Doom such as myself.

While violence is not the only thing Doom has to offer, I think a lot of people here seem to be denying that violence is a core aspect of what made Doom popular. At the time, there were few games like Doom that were daring enough to attack the controversy that Doom did. Look at Doom for what it was:

Extreme violence with gore that was almost unheard of by mainstream games at the time.
Depicting Hell and demons. This was also very taboo at the time.

The violence was a huge selling point in Doom, and will continue to do so. I don't get why people are acting very offended by the extra violence added in BD.

Nuke87654 · July 24, 2015

While violence is not the only thing Doom has to offer, I think a lot of people here seem to be denying that violence is a core aspect of what made Doom popular. At the time, there were few games like Doom that were daring enough to attack the controversy that Doom did. Look at Doom for what it was:

Extreme violence with gore that was almost unheard of by mainstream games at the time.

Depicting Hell and demons. This was also very taboo at the time.

The violence was a huge selling point in Doom, and will continue to do so. I don't get why people are acting very offended by the extra violence added in BD.

Because it shrouds over the other things that make Doom such a great classic in the gaming community. Also imagine seeing the legions of Brutal Doom fanboys come and attack other Doom mods simply because they're not like Brutal Doom or for 'ripping' off Brutal Doom despite it being given alot of resources, coding, and help from other modders the mod creator tried to hide and claim he did it on his own. It also doesn't help the Brutal Doom creator has a huge ego of himself along with other things.

You're right that the violence is a big selling point for it and many other games and it will continue to be so. I don't mind it being used as such as I like violence too. What I do mind is when fans believe that making things more violent and over top = better game when it's not always the case (Look at Hatred as an example).

There are other problems to the mod such as providing a jumping and crouching mechanic which breaks the game as the original levels were never designed with that in mind. Enemies that move faster and you move slower when the point of Doom's gameplay was to avoid enemy fire and timing. The zombiemen having siderolls is annoying as they were designed to be fragile as they have hit scan attacks, making them more difficult to kill just adds unnecessary difficulty and breaks balance as that would make them more threatening than imps, a higher level enemy originally. Generally it detracts plenty from the original games for whatever reason that annoys older gamers such as I.

How good is that DV2 mod. Is it worth a look?

Edited July 24, 2015 by Nuke87654

July 24, 2015

Because it shrouds over the other things that make Doom such a great classic in the gaming community. Also imagine seeing the legions of Brutal Doom fanboys come and attack other Doom mods simply because they're not like Brutal Doom or for 'ripping' off Brutal Doom despite it being given alot of resources, coding, and help from other modders the mod creator tried to hide and claim he did it on his own. It also doesn't help the Brutal Doom creator has a huge ego of himself along with other things.

You're right that the violence is a big selling point for it and many other games and it will continue to be so. I don't mind it being used as such as I like violence too. What I do mind is when fans believe that making things more violent and over top = better game when it's not always the case (Look at Hatred as an example).

There are other problems to the mod such as providing a jumping and crouching mechanic which breaks the game as the original levels were never designed with that in mind. Enemies that move faster and you move slower when the point of Doom's gameplay was to avoid enemy fire and timing. The zombiemen having siderolls is annoying as they were designed to be fragile as they have hit scan attacks, making them more difficult to kill just adds unnecessary difficulty and breaks balance as that would make them more threatening than imps, a higher level enemy originally. Generally it detracts plenty from the original games for whatever reason that annoys older gamers such as I.

How good is that DV2 mod. Is it worth a look?

Hey I love Doom as much as the next person, but let's not pretend the original Doom was not without its flaws. The speed of running in the original Doom made it easy to avoid encounters entirely and just speed through levels without shooting more than a few shots. Slowing down the player speed does not inherently break the game. While jumping and crouching are new to Brutal doom, exactly where do they break the game? I'm not really recalling any instances where crouching and jumping harmed the game in any respect.

While the ability to look up and down changed how the combat worked, it made it more complex than pointing in the general direction of the enemy. I never really felt any of the things you mentioned ruined the game. If anything I felt it added a nice challenge on top of an already great game. Shy of the person making the mod being a douche, I feel Brutal Doom doesn't deserve to be derailed so badly.

Hell Romero himself clearly thought violence and controversy were the selling point, because he made his ad for Daikatana literally just say "John Romero's about to make you his bitch." Which was insanely controversial at the time.

Nuke87654 · July 24, 2015

Hey I love Doom as much as the next person, but let's not pretend the original Doom was not without its flaws. The speed of running in the original Doom made it easy to avoid encounters entirely and just speed through levels without shooting more than a few shots. Slowing down the player speed does not inherently break the game. While jumping and crouching are new to Brutal doom, exactly where do they break the game? I'm not really recalling any instances where crouching and jumping harmed the game in any respect.

While the ability to look up and down changed how the combat worked, it made it more complex than pointing in the general direction of the enemy. I never really felt any of the things you mentioned ruined the game. If anything I felt it added a nice challenge on top of an already great game. Shy of the person making the mod being a douche, I feel Brutal Doom doesn't deserve to be derailed so badly.

Hell Romero himself clearly thought violence and controversy were the selling point, because he made his ad for Daikatana literally just say "John Romero's about to make you his bitch." Which was insanely controversial at the time.

It's more of the skill of a gamer and his desire to speed run rather than the game itself having a flaw. You still need to know the game's layout and level to know how to get through a level without taking a shot or even killing demons.

Making your character move slower in a game designed for you to dodge and avoid enemy fire while making the enemy move faster does hurt Doom's gameplay as instead of trying to avoid enemy fire, you're forced to try and siege against your enemy piece by piece, let alone this can ruin some speed run strats that require such careful speed and precision running speeds to move across obstacles. The jumps and crouching further damages it as jumping not only allows you to sequence break stuff in levels that had higher elevations designed specifically to stop the player from moving through this without initiating proper sequence in the level and crouching just further encourages the player to siege behind cover or so.

Being able to look up and down actually helped improve the gameplay as the original Doom used an auto aim to make up for how your character couldn't look up. This is one change that I appreciate from the mod makers as it removes the need for an autoaim.

I've already said and agreed with you that violence is a form that can help a game out in it's theme and how it's one of the most successful ways to advertise a product as America loves violence.

Light Rain · July 25, 2015

How good is that DV2 mod. Is it worth a look?

Deus Vult 2 is regarded as one of the best user made wads so I'd definitely recommend it. (It's linked in the OP btw)

Some speedrun vids:

July 25, 2015

It's more of the skill of a gamer and his desire to speed run rather than the game itself having a flaw. You still need to know the game's layout and level to know how to get through a level without taking a shot or even killing demons.

Seasoned Doom vet, and I can honestly say there is little in the way of strategy of Doom. Hell, you can just loop around big rooms and spray shotgun blasts all over. Brutal Doom at least makes that not as feasible as a strategy because the enemies hit you far more often and the hit detection is far less generous.

Making your character move slower in a game designed for you to dodge and avoid enemy fire

Let's just get this out of the way: vanilla doom monsters require virtually no skill to dodge attacks. Even playing on Hurt Me Plenty you can easily side step a majority of attacks even in narrow areas. It has little to do with speed and more to do with the enemy physics being very simple. Your hit detection is insanely generous while theirs is very nitpicky. Hell when a Shotgun trooper blasts at you, he can stand there all day but only about 25% of his blasts are going to make it to you, while you can more or less snipe him with your shotgun from far away.

The jumps and crouching further damages it as jumping not only allows you to sequence break stuff in levels that had higher elevations designed specifically to stop the player from moving through this without initiating proper sequence in the level and crouching just further encourages the player to siege behind cover or so.

This I will admit is a legitimate criticism, but it's not really as game breaking as you make it seem. The core elements of finding cards and opening doors is still there, and the challenge of finding a button to raise some stairs is replaced with more challenging combat. So it's not like the challenge is eliminated, just a different challenge is proposed. Not necessarily a bad thing.

Being able to look up and down actually helped improve the gameplay as the original Doom used an auto aim to make up for how your character couldn't look up. This is one change that I appreciate from the mod makers as it removes the need for an autoaim.

Yeah! It increases the difficulty and makes your weapons slightly less effective. This means the enemies actually stand a realistic chance.

The only thing I think you're forgetting is that Vanilla Doom is by no means a challenge or difficult. Some of the aspects you are upset about Brutal Doom changing are the elements that made Doom insanely easy. Once you got the shotgun in Doom you more or less were unstoppable unless you were playing on Nightmare. Even then you'd still be quite formidable. You could run so fast that enemies seldom hit you, and taking cover was virtually unnecessary.

I love Doom, but I have to look at it for what it is.

Light Rain · July 25, 2015

Hey I love Doom as much as the next person, but let's not pretend the original Doom was not without its flaws. The speed of running in the original Doom made it easy to avoid encounters entirely and just speed through levels without shooting more than a few shots. Slowing down the player speed does not inherently break the game. While jumping and crouching are new to Brutal doom, exactly where do they break the game? I'm not really recalling any instances where crouching and jumping harmed the game in any respect.

While the ability to look up and down changed how the combat worked, it made it more complex than pointing in the general direction of the enemy. I never really felt any of the things you mentioned ruined the game. If anything I felt it added a nice challenge on top of an already great game. Shy of the person making the mod being a douche, I feel Brutal Doom doesn't deserve to be derailed so badly.

Hell Romero himself clearly thought violence and controversy were the selling point, because he made his ad for Daikatana literally just say "John Romero's about to make you his bitch." Which was insanely controversial at the time.

Speedrunning should not be considered as the baseline for levels. Speedrunners know the level in and out and know how to slip by. By the way this isn't always possible in vanilla Doom and most user made wads are designed to surround the player with monsters, especially slaughtermaps. I invite you to play some slaughtermap in combination with BD. When Dodging literally hundreds of fireballs and revenant rockets, that extra speed really counts. Changing the player speed doesn't break the game but it breaks many megawads. Btw I would consider user made megawads a really important aspect of Doom, as many of them even surpass stock Doom maps in quality and because there are an incredible amount of them.

Jumping and crouching can break maps though, because the player might be able to crawl or jump where they shouldn't and skip large portions of the map, or just get stuck somewhere. Imagine if there is a level with a pit where you need a colored key to get out, and the player jumps in and then can't get out because they don't have the key. Situations like this can happen in a bunch of maps that weren't designed with jumping in mind (most of them). The worst thing is when this happens to someone and they think that the level was badly designed.

Edit: I just read your posts, and saw that you are a Doom vet, I guess I overexplained some things, sorry.

Edited July 25, 2015 by Light Rain

July 25, 2015

Speedrunning should not be considered as the baseline for levels. Speedrunners know the level in and out and know how to slip by.

I wasn't referring to speedrunning. I was referring to the fact that even if you don't really know the levels in and out, being able to move fast really makes dodging enemy attacks so easy it's not even funny. I can side step just about every enemy.

most user made wads are designed to surround the player with monsters, especially slaughtermaps. I invite you to play some slaughtermap in combination with BD. When Dodging literally hundreds of fireballs and revenant rockets, that extra speed really counts.

So your claim is because USERMADE content is broken by Brutal Doom that makes it inherently break the game? I don't really feel that's a sound argument. Tons of mods will conflict with other mods. Brutal Doom was not designed to be used with fanmade WADs, it was designed to increase the challenge of the base game and add more violence. It does exactly that.

Btw I would consider user made megawads a really important aspect of Doom, as many of them even surpass stock Doom maps in quality and because there are an incredible amount of them.

Well yeah, but there are tons of fanmade mods that can break other fanmade mods, but that doesn't inherently make them bad. Brutal Doom for being used to play the base game is challenging, adds more depth to the game and definitely gives you the extra challenge you want if you are looking for a more challenging experience.

Jumping and crouching can break maps though, because the player might be able to crawl or jump where they shouldn't and skip large portions of the map, or just get stuck somewhere. Imagine if there is a level with a pit where you need a colored key to get out, and the player jumps in and then can't get out because they don't have the key. Situations like this can happen in a bunch of maps that weren't designed with jumping in mind (most of them). The worst thing is when this happens to someone and they think that the level was badly designed.

I never really had issues like that when playing the base game. Though in fanmade WADs, yeah I can see that problem. But that's the thing: fanmade WADs can not POSSIBLY be factored in when making your own mods because you can't really control what other people make. While most mods work okay, there are plenty that will break each other if used in conjunction.

On its own, for what it was designed for: Brutal Doom definitely delivers. It increases the challenge of the game, and some people like that. Don't hate on it just because it doesn't work well with some fanmade WADs though. :c

Light Rain · July 25, 2015

I wasn't referring to speedrunning. I was referring to the fact that even if you don't really know the levels in and out, being able to move fast really makes dodging enemy attacks so easy it's not even funny. I can side step just about every enemy.

So your claim is because USERMADE content is broken by Brutal Doom that makes it inherently break the game? I don't really feel that's a sound argument. Tons of mods will conflict with other mods. Brutal Doom was not designed to be used with fanmade WADs, it was designed to increase the challenge of the base game and add more violence. It does exactly that.

Well yeah, but there are tons of fanmade mods that can break other fanmade mods, but that doesn't inherently make them bad. Brutal Doom for being used to play the base game is challenging, adds more depth to the game and definitely gives you the extra challenge you want if you are looking for a more challenging experience.

I never really had issues like that when playing the base game. Though in fanmade WADs, yeah I can see that problem. But that's the thing: fanmade WADs can not POSSIBLY be factored in when making your own mods because you can't really control what other people make. While most mods work okay, there are plenty that will break each other if used in conjunction.

On its own, for what it was designed for: Brutal Doom definitely delivers. It increases the challenge of the game, and some people like that. Don't hate on it just because it doesn't work well with some fanmade WADs though. :c

Please point out where exactly in my posts was I "hating on Brutal Doom". I said I don't mind it, it just annoys me when people complain about some well made megawad because they were running it with Brutal Doom. And why were they doing it? Because kotaku and the other terrible clickbait sites keep saying that BD makes Doom "Doomier" and Doom newbies think that it's like the unofficial fan patch for FONV or something.

We are actually in agreement. I never said that BD should be compatible with all maps, I'm just saying that it isn't, and that if I had to choose between BD and all megawads I'd go with the latter.

Most gameplay mods do break maps, but I would put mapsets and gameplay mods into separate categories. I barely touch gameplay mods myself, and I think mapsets deserve priority, because there are "only" 141 official Doom levels but tens of thousands of user made levels.

So let me reiterate, I don't "hate" BD, I even play it sometimes, it just annoys me that it is hailed as something that "brings Doom to the 21st century" or whatever by adding ironsights and making the player slower. It's like current gaming trends are infectious. Doom is fine as it is.

Edited July 25, 2015 by Light Rain

July 25, 2015

Please point out where exactly in my posts was I "hating on Brutal Doom". I said I don't mind it, it just annoys me when people complain about some well made megawad because they were running it with Brutal Doom. And why were they doing it? Because kotaku and the other terrible clickbait sites keep saying that BD makes Doom "Doomier" and Doom newbies think that it's like the unofficial fan patch for FONV or something.

Okay that I agree with. If you are running it with other mods and such and it works poorly then that's not Doom's fault, yeah.

So let me reiterate, I don't "hate" BD, I even play it sometimes, it just annoys me that it is hailed as something that "brings Doom to the 21st century" or whatever by adding ironsights and making the player slower. It's like current gaming trends are infectious. Doom is fine as it is.

Yeah, totally. I CAN understand though why the new Doom coming out borrows from other FPSes of modern day because really if you place Doom in a modern game engine it would be insanely broken. So naturally some changes need to happen, but I like how the combat is still being kept as fast paced as possible.

Light Rain · July 25, 2015

(Note: This is a pretty fragmented post, I was thinking about a bunch of stuff and cohesion suffered, so don't take it too seriously. )

Yeah, totally. I CAN understand though why the new Doom coming out borrows from other FPSes of modern day because really if you place Doom in a modern game engine it would be insanely broken. So naturally some changes need to happen, but I like how the combat is still being kept as fast paced as possible.

Ah, Doom 4... Well yes, unfortunately we'll never have a game like Doom again because no company has the balls to make the player be able to run at racecar speeds and sacrifice graphical fidelity to be able to put hundreds of enemies on-screen at once.

Doom 4 looked pretty linear to me when compared to the original Doom with it's hubs and optional side areas. Just think about E1M2; the maze area is completely skippable. Today creating a similiarly sized area would take days of work from a smaller team of people so making it optional would be out of the question; with that much effort put into it the player has to be made to see it.

This is why I like vanilla Doom. It's the perfect example of Less Is More. It has nine weapons, about fourteen monsters and mappers were able to create incredible versatility with just this. The engine doesn't even support room-over-room. After playing a bunch of megawads, many of them will feel like completely different games, just because of the way the encounters were designed. You can have encounters ranging from 2-3 enemies at once to 200-300 enemies at once, and it works.

Imagine you are in a huge room, and imps start flooding in. You keep dodging their fireballs, when hell knights appear. They are tough so you can't dispatch them immediately, you have to keep dodging their projectiles while you are thinning the hordes of imps. You can get tricky and position yourself to cause some friendly fire and infighting to keep some of them busy at least. Suddenly wall panels drop and you are surrounded by a bunch of shotgunners and chaingunners -- they immediately jump to the top of the to do list. Gotta find some cover, look for some walls, or even hide behind the knights to kill to birds with one stone. After you cleared the room and finally got your keycard you hear the noise of arch-vile cackling as they spread out in the room. You start figthing them in a panic, trying desperately to keep out of their line of sight, as they start undoing your messy handiwork.

Everybody owes it to themselves to put on some rock music, get some tough megawad and just charge in. When you get high on adrenaline as you are dodging a shitton of enemies while half dead and you notice that the booms of the super shotgun are in sync with the music... it's a feel.

Music recommendations for shooting:

Nine Inch Nails - Wish

Wolfmother - Dimension

July 25, 2015

Everybody owes it to themselves to put on some rock music,

That's really the one thing I feel the new Doom was missing: the metal. Bring back the metal and awesome sound track.

Light Rain · July 25, 2015

That's really the one thing I feel the new Doom was missing: the metal. Bring back the metal and awesome sound track.

This reminds me of an anecdote from Masters of Doom; Bobby Prince was a lawyer before he became a musician, so he knew exactly how much he could legally "borrow" from other musicians.

Nuke87654 · July 25, 2015

This reminds me of an anecdote from Masters of Doom; Bobby Prince was a lawyer before he became a musician, so he knew exactly how much he could legally "borrow" from other musicians.

Ah if only music companies weren't such nazis when it comes to copyright. That's probably one other thing I'll miss in Doom 4 is the lack of a metal track.

Seasoned Doom vet, and I can honestly say there is little in the way of strategy of Doom. Hell, you can just loop around big rooms and spray shotgun blasts all over. Brutal Doom at least makes that not as feasible as a strategy because the enemies hit you far more often and the hit detection is far less generous.

Let's just get this out of the way: vanilla doom monsters require virtually no skill to dodge attacks. Even playing on Hurt Me Plenty you can easily side step a majority of attacks even in narrow areas. It has little to do with speed and more to do with the enemy physics being very simple. Your hit detection is insanely generous while theirs is very nitpicky. Hell when a Shotgun trooper blasts at you, he can stand there all day but only about 25% of his blasts are going to make it to you, while you can more or less snipe him with your shotgun from far away.

This I will admit is a legitimate criticism, but it's not really as game breaking as you make it seem. The core elements of finding cards and opening doors is still there, and the challenge of finding a button to raise some stairs is replaced with more challenging combat. So it's not like the challenge is eliminated, just a different challenge is proposed. Not necessarily a bad thing.

Yeah! It increases the difficulty and makes your weapons slightly less effective. This means the enemies actually stand a realistic chance.

The only thing I think you're forgetting is that Vanilla Doom is by no means a challenge or difficult. Some of the aspects you are upset about Brutal Doom changing are the elements that made Doom insanely easy. Once you got the shotgun in Doom you more or less were unstoppable unless you were playing on Nightmare. Even then you'd still be quite formidable. You could run so fast that enemies seldom hit you, and taking cover was virtually unnecessary.

I love Doom, but I have to look at it for what it is.

That's the beauty of Doom's simple but deep gameplay. It's easy to get the hang off, but Speedrunners and others show it can be difficult to truly master as when done competitively, the speed and lengths these speedrunners use to their advantage is rather amazing. Individually yes there's little difficulty to handle a doom monster, but under certain circumstances or facing multiple foes which the game rarely ever lets you face without having their buddies around, it becomes more difficult, especially if you're ambushed by them without preparations. The enemy's easy to dodge projectiles is designed as such as you're always outnumber by enemies and the ones who have hitscans and can hit you near instantly if fired and aiming at you happen to have the lowest durability in the game or is the final boss.

As Light Rain said, what if somebody jumps off a part of the map and enter somewhere they weren't supposed to, they can be stuck without the no clip cheat active.

That mechanic actually places more emphasis on a player's skill with the keyboard and mouse controls and likewise. Sure it can be more challenging, but there are other players who can say it made it easier because they're better aiming on their own rather than point and click with autoaim.

Correct on the shotgun, it does make things easier, especially if you know the game well enough. However, not everyone is going to have an easy time with the game as not everyone is going to have similar skills and may still have difficulty even with the shotgun's arrival.

Edited July 26, 2015 by Nuke87654

arnoldcoolful · July 26, 2015

sorry to interrupt this thread nor i dont even know if i am supposed to post this but i have another thing to mention about doom source ports

lts not just about the singleplayer map pack, but its also about the multiplayer as well.

So, without further ado. i may introduce you to the source port that works on single-player but mainly focuses on the multiplayer aspect of doom

Zandronum.

And although i am not the creator of zandronum nor i am part of the development team. i would like to make some points of what zandronum is about and how it works so here we go
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
WHAT IS ZANDRONUM.

''Zandronum is a source port focused on offering a modernized multiplayer experience, offering new game modes such as capture the flag, invasion or domination. The International Doom League adopted it as its port of choice in 2014''

-Cited from the Doom Wiki

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ZANDRONUM FEATURES.

Support for up to 64 players in cooperative, deathmatch, team deathmatch, Capture the flag, possession, domination, invasion, Last man standing, survival, and other game modes.
Support for most ZDoom and GZDoom features, including the latter's hardware accelerated renderer.
Continuing support for unique Skulltag editing features as well.
Console, Quake-style keybindings, Free look, Jumping, and other advanced controls.
Full support for all Doom Engine games, including Heretic, Hexen, and Strife.
Runs on Windows, Mac OS X, and Linux

-Again, Source is from the doom wiki

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Where Do I Get Zandronum?

http://zandronum.com/download
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sorry guys if i went a bit overboard/over-promoting over zandronum but i would definitely would recommend this source port to doom players. And If you can, get Doomseeker (or at least it comes bundled with the zandrounum installer) its a Server browser that lets you play doom with other people with mappacks or mods.

anyways. have a good one everypony!

Edited July 26, 2015 by arnoldcoolful

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