Should we accept character flaws for what they are?

[Cwanky 17,611]

Like many here following FiM, I have not only grown to enjoy the show, I have also grown to like many of the characters, even get attached to some. Of course, with every relationship there's the good and the bad.

 

Today we're here to focus on the bad from individual characters.   Not specifically, but as a general aspect. They're not necessarily bad per say but seek to balance and contrast with a character's other traits, like Yin and Yang. 

 

These traits aren't bad per say consistently. They may be traits we just find disagreeable or odd, like Pinkie Pie's spontaneity and lack of seriousness at times. Or Rainbow Dash's cockiness and brashness. Both examples are open to interpretation and work both ways.

 

Unfortunately, personal biases get in the way and we often are willing to ignore or even give our favorite characters the benefit of the doubt even when they are meant to be in the wrong. The most classic example of a defense is to claim is "Out of Character" OOC when they do something we don't expect or agree with. This is also often interpreted as bad writing and yes I do this quite a bit too.

 

Worst yet people may justify the trait or behavior by claiming their character "meant well/no harm."

 

ie: 

 

Pinkie behaves like a creep to Cranky. Even when her friends and the episode, many would insist "she meant well and was trying to be friendly."

 

But I'm not here to decide for you what's good or bad. You have to make that conclusion on your own. No one else, not me, not Celestia, not the show, can decide that for you.

 

So then, what are some truly truly negative traits you see in the Mane 6, or other characters outside the villains? Do you accept them for what they are as part of the character or as poor or misguided writing?

[GuyNamedEarl 1,332]

I think it makes them less of stereotypical and Mary sue characters and shows that they aren't perfect and still have lots to learn.

[Bendy 1,821]

Without flaws they become mary sues. Mary sues are boring and portentous.

 

 

There's a reason idiot characters in media in general are popular.  

Edited August 28, 2015 by Bendy

[Steel Accord 6,660]

Well for one thing, regardless of anything else, I am glad they have negative traits. I'm going to keep saying this for fear of complacency in this matter but this all could have gone so wrong and none of us would be here right now. That they even have observable character flaws, is a boon.

 

Now you brought up a good point in that sometimes there is subjectivity. E.g. what others find endearing, others find annoying. The difference, I think is recognizing which is simply an aspect about the character's personality you consider negative and what is an actual flaw.

 

For instance, some find Pinkie's apparent lack of seriousness in any situation to be infuriating. Nevertheless, she still keeps up with her friends and is helpful. So that's a personal negative. On the other hoof, Pinkie sometimes reaches false conclusions when she doesn't have the full picture or the proper perspective which can send her into deep bouts of manic depressiveness. ("Party of One", "Pinkie Pride", "Maud Pie", "Too Many Pinkie Pies") That's a flaw.

 

Simply a negative quality is something the character can work on and grow out of, and they have you just don't notice it sometimes, while a true character flaw is something that can be compensated for but will never truly leave them. (We all have both of these in reality.)

[Steve Piranha 29,448]

Faust stated that she intendet for each character to have their set of flaws, so, yeah, flaws makes them interesting ^^

[cider float 2,538]

Their character flaws make them what they are. I don't understand why people get upset on them because they don't fix them from a lesson?

 

If they lose their flaws the show will become a bit flat.

[Cwanky 17,611]

 

Now you brought up a good point in that sometimes there is subjectivity. E.g. what others find endearing, others find annoying. The difference, I think is recognizing which is simply an aspect about the character's personality you consider negative and what is an actual flaw.

 

For instance, some find Pinkie's apparent lack of seriousness in any situation to be infuriating. Nevertheless, she still keeps up with her friends and is helpful. So that's a personal negative. On the other hoof, Pinkie sometimes reaches false conclusions when she doesn't have the full picture or the proper perspective which can send her into deep bouts of manic depressiveness. ("Party of One", "Pinkie Pride", "Maud Pie", "Too Many Pinkie Pies") That's a flaw.

 

Its the nice thing about this show. We don't just get to pick our favorite protagonist, we have our own preferences among them. For the most part these are great classic examples of flaws. The writers and episode clearly illustrate them and its not hard for fans to put 1 and 1 together.

 

As to the consensus about the need for character flaws, I think most fans would agree there wholeheartedly, even the waifu lovers. The problem is perspective. People are willing to accept there characters as being flawed but they refuse to accept certain flaws or acknowledge that there characters may sin in such a way that they believe is "OOC," going against what there character represents and tarnishing them. 

 

Simply a negative quality is something the character can work on and grow out of, and they have you just don't notice it sometimes, while a true character flaw is something that can be compensated for but will never truly leave them. (We all have both of these in reality.

For the most part I agree here. Stuff like Rainbow being a jerk or as we've beaten to death, Pinkie lacking empathy and over the top can be written off as negative qualities. Arguably many of the traits are.

 

But then some traits manifest themselves as a pattern over time, like Rainbow's poor judgment following the Wonderbolts, Applejack's over protectiveness, and Pinkie's lack of empathy again. The question that always pops up is "has (s)he truly learned his/her lesson or been reformed?" Of course like with any habit, negative traits can be very hard to break, making it almost identical to a character flaw in many ways. 

 

I suppose again that's up to the viewer to draw that fine line.

 

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Even moreso than that though, the issue of flaws becomes vastly more difficult to deal with when its the show itself that comes at odds, often with significant opposition, with the viewers, presenting a different picture than we might see.

 

Because the writing seeks to paint a different narrative than the viewers may interpret, this line gets blurred significantly quite often. Particularly with villains and antagonists, this happens more often than you'd think, and it makes the show less black and white (no pun intended) than we would expect.

 

 Trixie Lulamoon comes up as one such interesting example. The show in both of her appearances consistently portrays her as overly antagonistic and mean spirited. But by another view, she was simply playing her role as a magician and was rudely upstaged by the Mane 6 and humiliated, helping justify her vengeance and anger. Since Trixie ultimately reforms though we can write this off as a negative quality she learned from.

 

Someone like Discord creates much more chaos however.  Post reformation in Keep Calm and Flutter On, we consistently see several key traits of Discord: his comical joker and teasing nature and the surprising amount of faith and trust he invests into those he actually truly cares for, namely Fluttershy and superficially on a false premise Tirek. The show consistently leads us to believe he's wholly at fault and is the one that needs to learn more at becoming a better person and friend. But we also see consistently that everyone but Fluttershy mostly or completely rebukes Discord, despite him being reformed, treating him like dirt and making no effort to befriend or tolerate him. This relationship is illustrated in Make New Friends, But Keep Discord with its flawed morals and conclusions, but is also notable throughout Twilight's Kingdom.

 

Of course perceived character flaws born from the show writing itself is hardly limited to villains and antagonists. Protagonists and supporting characters are far from immune, with Spike being a highly notable victim of show bashing. 

[Steel Accord 6,660]

@@Cwanky,

 

Okay I can buy most of this here, but "Pinkie's lack of empathy?!" She tries to know and understand EVERYPONY to be a better caretaker and friend. How is that consistent behavior a sign that she lacks empathy? 

[Cwanky 17,611]

@@Cwanky,

 

Okay I can buy most of this here, but "Pinkie's lack of empathy?!" She tries to know and understand EVERYPONY to be a better caretaker and friend. How is that consistent behavior a sign that she lacks empathy? 

I am by no means trying to suggest that Pinkie is uncaring and sociopathic, like Queen Chrysalis, when I say Pinkie lacks empathy. It may not have been the right choice of words. Call it as you will: obliviousness, insensitive or whatever floats your boat.

 

It just seems Pinkie has a tendency at times to disregard others' emotions at times and lacks a greater awareness of a situation. It manifests in examples like where she scares and makes Fluttershy cry in Fili Vanilli, and with Cranky in A Friend in Deed to name a few examples. It doesn't bother me as much as it does others, but I mention it because it seems to be a recurring flaw that gets a lot of fans annoyed and upset at Pinkie. Hence the whole "Has Pinkie learned her lesson yet?" debate that goes on.

[Steel Accord 6,660]

@@Cwanky,

 

Well that's not the same thing as lacking empathy. That is simply misreading the situation. As one who suffers from a condition that results in misjudging other's emotions and reacting extremely inappropriately, I can relate to Pinkie's plight.

Edited September 2, 2015 by Steel Accord

[Zerbu 72]

Honestly, I really don't understand why so many bronies are so desperate to see the characters permanently outgrow their flaws. Without flaws, the characters would be boring, and the episodes would be uninteresting as a result.

[Cwanky 17,611]

@@Cwanky,

 

Well that's not the same thing as lacking empathy. That is simply misreading the situation. As one who suffers from a condition that results in misjudging other's emotions and reacting extremely inappropriately, I can relate to Pinkie's plight.

 

That's more than fair. It is true that its often beyond Pinkie's control.

 

Honestly, I really don't understand why so many bronies are so desperate to see the characters permanently outgrow their flaws. Without flaws, the characters would be boring, and the episodes would be uninteresting as a result.

 

People expect character development in a meaningful way. Unfortunately some fans interpret that as a character suddenly growing outta their flaws and becoming more ideal or perfect. People sometimes forget that just because characters learn a lesson from an episode, doesn't mean that lesson won't continue to apply in the future nor can it not be re-learned.

[Sugar Cube 4,843]

I think it's just as you said, Cwanky, that personal biases often cloud up our judgement when a character shows different traits for the first time or does something that would normally not be expected. I think the show has done an excellent job overall of keeping the characters consistent and honoring their many strengths and weaknesses. In fact, I think it's gotten better over time. One example is Applejack's honesty, which was arguably inconsistent in the first two seasons, but seems to be something that's really sticking as one of her virtues in newer episodes. That's another discussion though.

 

I think we often become too quick to play the "OOC" card whenever our favorite character does something that we don't like or agree with. I didn't like Pinkie Pie's insensitivity to Fluttershy's stage fright in Filli Vanilli either, but I'll be darned if I'd call it out of character when Pinkie's been known to randomly blurt out whatever comes to mind due to her lack of a filter for these kinds of situations. Remember when she said Cranky was really really bald in A Friend in Deed? Or when she reminded Sunset Shimmer that she turned people into teenage zombies for her own personal army in Rainbow Rocks? Just two examples off the top of my head, but you get the idea - Pinkie has a way of saying wrong, hurtful things without intending to. It's a flaw alright, and not one that she can just learn to undo the first time she's called out for it. Realistically speaking, some bad habits and imperfections are just so deep-rooted that it's incredibly difficult to change. I think of people in my life that are as stubborn as Applejack. People that are as cripplingly introverted as Fluttershy. And others that are as high-strung and dramatic as Rarity. They've been that way for years despite knowing fully of their issues, and they can't just flip a switch and change their ways. And that's a big reason why the Mane Six are such great characters, because they too have realistic flaws that they can't overcome in a day's time, much like real people.

 

I never did get around to writing my defense on why Applejack's over-protectiveness of Apple Bloom in Somepony to Watch Over Me was not wholly uncharacteristic of her, but I still maintain that Applejack was very much Applejack in that episode. I bring this up because the episode has been almost universally panned for its apparently OOC portrayal of Applejack. Family is her priority in life. It's the thing that keeps her going strong. She wants what is best for her kin and will bend over backwards to do it, especially when it concerns their safety. It's the one thing that can turn the usually stable farm pony into a hot mess. We already know that AJ is an orphan. That alone would cause anyone to be cautious and protective of their loved ones because they've already experienced a painful loss and know how hard it is. Apple Bloom had already proven herself very immature and irresponsible on numerous occasions prior to the episode (Call of the Cutie, Bridle Gossip, Ponyville Confidential, One Bad Apple, just about any Crusader episode you can think of) and continued to do so in later ones. Appleoosa's Most Wanted further touched upon Apple Bloom's knack for getting her older sister in a panic over her safety. Applejack leaving Apple Bloom alone at home for the very first time was bound to frighten her and send her over the edge, resulting in her ridiculous antics. The reason people find it OOC is because prior to the episode, we've never seen AJ act quite this over the top. But just as the other five all have things that they're insecure about that drives them into uncharacteristic fits, family matters are what drives AJ bonkers. There are many other examples of this, but I should really save that for a blog post sometime.

 

In a nutshell, I rarely point the finger at "bad writing" for why characters act the way they do. That's an incredibly narrow-minded way of looking at the big picture without trying to grasp the intent of the writers, and to me, just seems like a cop-out from fans who are so self-entitled that they think they know the characters better than the people who actually get together, brainstorm, and write out these stories as a creative team for a living. And I've been guilty of it too, make no mistake.

[derpy4ever 48]

Actually, i think it makes perfect sense tro have characters occassionally perform out of character because often the good quality we pride ourselves most on is the one we struggle the most with, thus we our proud of the times we don't fall into temptation. For instance, if an alchoholic recovers, he will be more proud of his ability to not overdrink than anyother good quality of his because it is hard for him. Therefore lying may actually be applejack's greatedt temptaion, making honesty her most valued trait. Rarity may suffer from greed on the inside, so finds pride in showing generosity, etc. So we shouldn't judge their actions as out of character, we should feel sorry for them getting to a point that they give in to their greatest temptations.

[chirox the pony 1,336]

Well they kinda need those flaws in order to be interesting characters.