What was Starlight's Village Ideology?

[Duality 10,740]

Plenty of people have compared Starlight Glimmer's 'equality village' ideology to Communism, Marxism, and assorted other notable cultic belief systems, but is there an actual combination of ideologies equating (pun not intended) to those propagated by Starlight? Is there an official philosophical classification that her village cult and its values fit into? Or, at very least, are there aspects of her beliefs that can be described in analogy to real-life ideological tenets and principles?

[ShootingStar159 2,156]

There is no perfect comparison to Starlight's ideology to what we have today, at least not with any of the big, world shaping ideologies. Her village was closer to a small town cult; a smart, manipulative leader who offers the outcasts of society an answer to the problems they've faced in life. Her town is compared to communism, because it's the closest real world ideology to hers, at least in outcome, where everyone is trapped in miserable mediocrity (equality) while the ruling class lives without the constraints that everyone else does. Ideologically, Starlight's ideology isn't really at all like communism.

 

[Fluttershy Friend 25,447]

For me it was mix of utopian socialism (like in XIX century) and communism (in Russian model).

 

[Hierok 11,831]

For me it just was MLP and nothing more. I haven't ever compared it to each other. 

[Duality 10,740]

On ‎19‎/‎08‎/‎2017 at 1:52 PM, ShootingStar159 said:

Her town is compared to communism, because it's the closest real world ideology to hers, at least in outcome, where everyone is trapped in miserable mediocrity (equality) while the ruling class lives without the constraints that everyone else does. Ideologically, Starlight's ideology isn't really at all like communism.

That's true. Always wondered what the communism comparison was all about when it was never directly shown that they shared all their resources with everyone else (that I can remember at least, been a while since I watched it).

On ‎19‎/‎08‎/‎2017 at 7:01 PM, Fluttershy Friend said:

For me it was mix of utopian socialism (like in XIX century) and communism (in Russian model).

Yes, I definitely see your point with the idealistic small-town 'society could be perfect without revolution being necessary' concept. What do you mean by your mention of 'Russian model' communism? I can't find any online description of such an ideological variant.

[Fluttershy Friend 25,447]

Quote

What do you mean by your mention of 'Russian model' communism? I can't find any online description of such an ideological variant.

It is mine own reflections of course. I simply notice many similarities like: cult of leader, the principle that the leader is always right , some kind of terror, importance of insolent propaganda with slogans. Even parade like Russian parades 1 May, 9 May.

 

Edited August 20, 2017 by Fluttershy Friend

[Duality 10,740]

On ‎21‎/‎08‎/‎2017 at 7:41 AM, Fluttershy Friend said:

It is mine own reflections of course. I simply notice many similarities like: cult of leader, the principle that the leader is always right , some kind of terror, importance of insolent propaganda with slogans. Even parade like Russian parades 1 May, 9 May.

Oh, okay, that makes sense. Thought you were talking about a variant belief system implemented specifically by Russia. 

[Ganondox 899]

One thing I can say is that Starlight's Equalism is NOT communism, especially not the Marxist variant. The key principle of Marxist Communism is not that everyone is equal, but that people should reap the fruits of their own labors, and the only way to achieve this is through collectively owned capital and land (not personal possessions as is often depicted), the idea being that capitalism allows those who own capital to profit of the labors of others by restricting access to said capital. While Egalitarianism is based in Marxism, it's a reference to economic equality, not equality in ability like Starlight wants. Starlight Glimmer's ideology isn't any real one as it's simply ridiculous, but the closest I can compare it to is an extreme form of collectivism, though the key idea of collectivism is that people conform where is required to create harmony for the benefit of the group, not that all individuality should be sacrificed, and individual strengths are vital to collectivist society as people need to perform different roles for the society to function. 

On 8/20/2017 at 1:41 PM, Fluttershy Friend said:

It is mine own reflections of course. I simply notice many similarities like: cult of leader, the principle that the leader is always right , some kind of terror, importance of insolent propaganda with slogans. Even parade like Russian parades 1 May, 9 May.

 

That's not communism, that's authoritarianism. Obviously they aren't mutually exclusive, but they are completely orthogonal ideologies. Communism can also be democratic or anarchist, at least in theory, and most authoritarian regimes are actually capitalist, such as Banana "Republics". 

Edited August 22, 2017 by Ganondox

[Duality 10,740]

4 minutes ago, Ganondox said:

One thing I can say is that Starlight's Equalism is NOT communism, especially not the Marxist variant. The key principle of Marxist Communism is not that everyone is equal, but that people should reap the fruits of their own labors, and the only way to achieve this is through collectively owned capital and land, the idea being that capitalism allows those who own capital to profit of the labors of others by restricting access to said capital. While Egalitarianism is based in Marxism, it's a reference to economic equality, not equality in ability like Starlight wants.

Her village might have had communist concepts implemented. We never saw any reference to how resources are shared out in her village, really; the episodes focussed more on how her 'equality' idea applied to individual ponies' personalities and cutie marks.

1 hour ago, Ganondox said:

Starlight Glimmer's ideology isn't any real one as it's simply ridiculous, but the closest I can compare it to is an extreme for of collectivism, though the key idea of collectivism is that people conform where is required to create harmony for the benefit of the group, not that all individuality should be sacrificed, and individual strengths are vital to collectivist society as people need to perform different roles for the society to function. 

It seems to me that Starlight wasn't actually intending her principles to benefit her society, as in collectivism, but more to benefit the friendships therein, the difference being that her society probably wasn't really that successful in terms of wealth and correct functionality, as seen in that her village was effectively a dozen or so ramshackle huts in the middle of nowhere, but rather that the ponies in the community were supposedly in harmony so much better than those in any other community in Equestria. It almost gives the impression of being some sort of monastery-type ideological enclave in an effectively inaccessible area, set above 'lesser' societies even in geographical location.

[Ganondox 899]

53 minutes ago, Duality said:

Her village might have had communist concepts implemented. We never saw any reference to how resources are shared out in her village, really; the episodes focussed more on how her 'equality' idea applied to individual ponies' personalities and cutie marks.

It seems to me that Starlight wasn't actually intending her principles to benefit her society, as in collectivism, but more to benefit the friendships therein, the difference being that her society probably wasn't really that successful in terms of wealth and correct functionality, as seen in that her village was effectively a dozen or so ramshackle huts in the middle of nowhere, but rather that the ponies in the community were supposedly in harmony so much better than those in any other community in Equestria. It almost gives the impression of being some sort of monastery-type ideological enclave in an effectively inaccessible area, set above 'lesser' societies even in geographical location.

They might have well have implemented communist concepts, but that's not her ideology. Her ideology is the equality thing, not every aspect used to run the village. For the second point, for Starlight her village is society, doesn't matter what is going on in the rest of Equestria. Generally speaking the smaller a community is, the better communism or collectivism works, but again, the problem with Starlight is her ideology isn't exactly either, it's just ridiculous. 

[Duality 10,740]

8 minutes ago, Ganondox said:

They might have well have implemented communist concepts, but that's not her ideology. Her ideology is the equality thing, not every aspect used to run the village.

I was meaning more along the lines of Starlight having plausibly having extended her 'equality thing' to economic equality on top of equality of ability, thus implementing communist concepts within her ideology. Just because equality of ability was the only equality mentioned in the episode doesn't mean that it's the only equality she advocated for.

25 minutes ago, Ganondox said:

Generally speaking the smaller a community is, the better communism or collectivism works, but again, the problem with Starlight is her ideology isn't exactly either, it's just ridiculous. 

Why ridiculous?

From what I've heard, part of the definition for utopian socialism is that it's unrealistic; does that also class as ridiculous?

[Ganondox 899]

4 hours ago, Duality said:

I was meaning more along the lines of Starlight having plausibly having extended her 'equality thing' to economic equality on top of equality of ability, thus implementing communist concepts within her ideology. Just because equality of ability was the only equality mentioned in the episode doesn't mean that it's the only equality she advocated for.

Why ridiculous?

From what I've heard, part of the definition for utopian socialism is that it's unrealistic; does that also class as ridiculous?

It's possible, but it's not present in the episode, and it's would just be an extra addition that is not needed ala Occam's Razor. As such, there is no reason to treat it as being part of her ideology. Maybe she believed beans are poisonous and as such it could be considered part of her ideology, but it's irrelevant to the point. To be fair though, egalitarianism a fairly natural extension because economic advantages are a type of ability. 

If you don't understand why Starlight Glimmer's ideology is ridiculous, I suggest watching the episode again, it explains so (and I also explained why in my first comment). By ridiculous I mean the ideology can be dismissed without coming down to a matter of personal opinions, a coherent ideology could not be resolved with a friendship lesson. The only aims Starlight Glimmer's ideology achieves is placating her fragile ego and bias against cutie marks. It would never be seriously considered by any ethical philosopher worth his salt. Now, there are ridiculous ideologies that are popular among lay folk like Objectivism, but I don't think ideologies similar to Starlight's are considered by anyone is because they simply have no appeal. Objectivism might be fundamentally flawed on a logical level, but it's appeals to people's ego, collectivism meanwhile does not. As such, only the forms of collectivism which have proven their worth have any followers. The only reason Starlight bought her own ideology was because of childhood trauma, and her followers only took to it because it was part of the whole package. Once any thought was put into the alternatives it was quickly abandoned.  

Regarding Utopian Socialism, you need to understand it in historical context. It's ridiculous because socialist theory has advanced beyond the initial ideas, but before Marx and his much more thought out critiques they were seen as at least somewhat plausible. Unlike the previous socialists, Marx was a pragmatist. He was a Hegelian, not a Utopian, his goal was not to lay out an idealized society, but to consider it's evolution. 

[Duality 10,740]

8 minutes ago, Ganondox said:

It's possible, but it's not present in the episode, and it's would just be an extra addition that is not needed ala Occam's Razor. As such, there is no reason to treat it as being part of her ideology. Maybe she believed beans are poisonous and as such it could be considered part of her ideology, but it's irrelevant to the point. To be fair though, egalitarianism a fairly natural extension because economic advantages are a type of ability. 

You realise you just critiqued my point into submission and then straight restated it as your 'to be fair' sentence. Juuuust sayin'. 

11 minutes ago, Ganondox said:

If you don't understand why Starlight Glimmer's ideology is ridiculous, I suggest watching the episode again, it explains so (and I also explained why in my first comment).

I know why it's ridiculous - because I no stupid person -, I was just asking why you said it was ridiculous, because otherwise my discussion topic would die and I would get no more brohoofs I wanted to know your opinion on the matter. You seem to know what you're talking about, after all. 

Also, there's no explicit explanation in your first comment, just a statement that it's ridiculous followed by a comparison with collectivism. 

18 minutes ago, Ganondox said:

By ridiculous I mean the ideology can be dismissed without coming down to a matter of personal opinions, a coherent ideology could not be resolved with a friendship lesson. The only aims Starlight Glimmer's ideology achieves is placating her fragile ego and bias against cutie marks. It would never be seriously considered by any ethical philosopher worth his salt. Now, there are ridiculous ideologies that are popular among lay folk like Objectivism, but I don't think ideologies similar to Starlight's are considered by anyone is because they simply have no appeal. Objectivism might be fundamentally flawed on a logical level, but it's appeals to people's ego, collectivism meanwhile does not. As such, only the forms of collectivism which have proven their worth have any followers. The only reason Starlight bought her own ideology was because of childhood trauma, and her followers only took to it because it was part of the whole package. Once any thought was put into the alternatives it was quickly abandoned.  

Now we're talkin'. What do you mean by 'her followers only took to it because it was part of the whole package'? What was the remainder of the package? Living in a desolate bunch of hovels in the middle of nowhere can't be particularly inherently appealing, nor does there seem to be another significant perk of living in the village. Frankly, I just thought that Starlight was good enough at smooth-talking the vulnerable to get them all to sign their cutie marks over to her and all the rest just went from there. 

And, on a side-note, logical objectivism is generally considered to be true, and cannot be disproved via logic because it concerns the nature of logic.

[Krashface 534]

I really didn't thought of this. I just think is a some sort of Andrew Ryan's Distopia that started in Starlight's head as something good for evryone... and then f [apples] d up in reality, dragging others to a schizophrenic state of mind and terror.

Just... not at the bottom of the ocean and with plasmids.

[Duality 10,740]

@Krashface

It does seem like the sort of actually-really-bad thing that you might easily be able to convince yourself is good for everyone, doesn't it?

'Equality is the only path to harmony' isn't a half-bad catchphrase, methinks. Better than most political catchphrases, at that.

[Ganondox 899]

10 hours ago, Duality said:

You realise you just critiqued my point into submission and then straight restated it as your 'to be fair' sentence. Juuuust sayin'. 

I know why it's ridiculous - because I no stupid person -, I was just asking why you said it was ridiculous, because otherwise my discussion topic would die and I would get no more brohoofs I wanted to know your opinion on the matter. You seem to know what you're talking about, after all. 

Also, there's no explicit explanation in your first comment, just a statement that it's ridiculous followed by a comparison with collectivism. 

Now we're talkin'. What do you mean by 'her followers only took to it because it was part of the whole package'? What was the remainder of the package? Living in a desolate bunch of hovels in the middle of nowhere can't be particularly inherently appealing, nor does there seem to be another significant perk of living in the village. Frankly, I just thought that Starlight was good enough at smooth-talking the vulnerable to get them all to sign their cutie marks over to her and all the rest just went from there. 

And, on a side-note, logical objectivism is generally considered to be true, and cannot be disproved via logic because it concerns the nature of logic.

Yeah, that's what the point of the two be fair is, to acknowledge that even if your point doesn't mean much, it still means something. 

The comparison with collectivism was the explanation, it's collectivism without the good parts, ergo, it's ridiculous. 

For the village thing, you need to understand cult psychology. The main reason people join cults and stay in them is because they are lonely (which is one of the reasons that contrary to common belief, cultists actually tend to have above average IQ). Starlight's village sucked, but it provided them with something that they didn't have outside the village. They must have all been lonely in broader Equestria, which is why they were seduced by Starlight's promises in the first place, and the fact they stayed in the village after Starlight was overthrown reinforces that the village gives them a sense of belonging they did not have elsewhere. 

I'm not talking about Logical Objectivism, I'm talking about Ayn Rand's Objectivism, which is just an incredibly poor attempt at ethical egoism.