Twilight will become stronger than Celestia

[hollow-shades 129]

So, Celestia is a pretty strong Alicorn, being the Alicorn of sun and all, and having enough power to control both the sun and the moon, and also to be able to banish her sister to the moon. She's strong.

BUT, what if I told you that Twilight might become stronger than her?

Twlight is the princess of friendship. And friendship is also a strong, if not stronger kind of magic than Celestia's magic.

The Elements of Harmony were able to do pretty big things, such as reverting Nightmare Moon, banishing Tirek and turning Discord into stone, all of which Celestia has done in the past. So friendship is a pretty strong kind of magic considering that the Elements of Harmony, which seems to get power from it, are able to do the same things that Celestia's natural Alicorn magic does. Or, actually, not the same. More than her magic can do.

The main supporting point for this is what happened to Nightmare Moon right at the first episode. Celestia banished her to the moon, and its because there was nothing more to do. Nightmare Moon wasn't willing to lower the moon and wasn't willing to become Princess Luna again. So, Celestia, using her magic, had to banish her over to the moon because that was the only option.

However, Twilight and the Elements are a very different story. In the premiere, Nightmare Moon wasn't willing to lower the moon and wasn't willing to become Princess Luna again. BUT, Twilight, with the Elements and with her friendship, managed to convert Nightmare Moon. Although the elements could have had the power to send her back into the moon again, with the magical and stronger power of friendship, it turned her back.

And there's also the Wendigos. They were made thanks to disharmony, aka discussing, and the only way to beat them was with friendship again. The only way to beat them was friendship because it is the strongest kind of magic.

TL;DR - Friendship is the strongest magic and Twilight, as the princess of it, will become stronq.

[DonMaguz 1,023]

Solid points on Friendship being the strongest magic, but there's a reason the mane 6 have thrones in Twilight's castle. Friendship is not something to be handled alone, I don't think Twilight will ever become stronger by herself, she needs her friends, it's the sole reason she could ever do anything to stop Nightmare Moon, Discord or Tirek.

[Hierok 11,829]

She might as well become, but like don said, only with her friends is she stronger. 

[Guest]

This is something that irks me a lot about Starlight, actually. I don't understand how she could possibly have been more magically gifted than the element of magic. In terms of power, if you mean their magical abilities then I think eventually maybe Twilight could become gifted enough to surpass Celestia, but Celestia has been alive for a very long time and has eons worth of knowledge. Granted, I don't think I've ever seen Celestia use magic to do little more than shoot lasers at clouds and move the sun. (exaggeration, but there's not much variety in the abilities she's shown.) So over time, as she learns and refines I think Twilight could eventually become so much more knowledgeable than Celestia that her stature as a princess will feel more fitting. It's implied that being an alicorn is what can keep you alive as long as Celestia and Luna have been, so Twilight has the time she needs. She just needs the study, and that's what she's best at.

[Jackie Snack 1,498]

So, are Twi and Tia gonna settle this Lion King style?

[KH7672 1,604]

1 hour ago, Sunset Rose said:

This is something that irks me a lot about Starlight, actually. I don't understand how she could possibly have been more magically gifted than the element of magic.

Because being the element of magic means you are mature with your use and understand your element. The element of magic would not use magic as a first resort or exclusively fall back on it. That would be like saying why wouldn't the most famous comedian get the element of laughter or why wouldn't a devoted member of the royal guard get loyalty or why wouldn't a properly raised pony who never lies get honesty. Simple because they don't use these traits to help others except in the barest forms of social exceptance. The true elements are not the strongest in their fields *cough*Rainbow and Rarity*cough* but it's their interaction and effect on others that allows their element to shine through without showing it around like a medal of honor (Although I'm giving you a pass on that song, Rarity).

As for the question at hand. In leadership definitely, Twilight will be stronger than Celestia with how many enemies turned allies she was able to achieve. In magical or power, hard to tell say Celestia can weild all six elements at once and easily raise and lower the Sun and Moon. I've yet to see Twilight do these magical feats successfully.

[Castle Bleck 19,163]

2 hours ago, Sunset Rose said:

Granted, I don't think I've ever seen Celestia use magic to do little more than shoot lasers at clouds and move the sun. (exaggeration, but there's not much variety in the abilities she's shown.)

 

In Lesson Zero, she broke Twilight's brainwashing over the town.

 

And in Keep Calm And Flutter On, she warded the Elements so Discord couldn't just teleport them away again.

[Jeric 46,834]

In the original Star Wars Trilogy all we saw was Yoda levitating a ship out of a bog, but at no time did fans believe that he wasn't a badass if he needed to be. 

That's how I look at Celestia. Could Twilight eventually eclipse her? Sure. Nothing suggests she can't. 

[Jackie Snack 1,498]

Throw them both in the ring and let 'em duke it out.

[Ivan The Adorable 304]

It's kind of the nature of the series that, if allowed to progress to the point, I don't think there's really a definitive power level hierarchy that will settle out. It's more like Celestia, Twilight, Starlight etc. are all powerful enough to resolve problems if they have the knowledge and resourcefulness and any quantitative difference in power is thus mostly negligible.

[Hierok 11,829]

15 hours ago, Jackie: sleepy mare said:

So, are Twi and Tia gonna settle this Lion King style?

Sing a song about letting go of worries? Could be. 

[Jackie Snack 1,498]

5 minutes ago, Hierok said:

Sing a song about letting go of worries? Could be. 

I'm thinking more along the line of "Long live the Queen." > : V Muwahahaha

[Hierok 11,829]

1 minute ago, Jackie: sleepy mare said:

I'm thinking more along the line of "Long live the Queen." > : V Muwahahaha

Or this is my lullaby from Zira. 

 

[Number62 1,246]

I'd say that Twilight is already stronger than Celestia because Celestia sucks as a guardian of Equestria. It's not hard to see that she has contributed nothing to any villain's defeat. There's "The Return of Harmony", but her help in that episode brings up other issues like:

• How did she know Twilight was in trouble when she wasn't with Twilight for almost the entire episode
• Why didn't Celestia help the Mane 6 find the Elements of Harmony? She may be weaker than Discord, but so are the Mane 6 without the Elements. Maybe Discord might take action if Celestia came along, but the episode doesn't say what she was up to. She seemed fine since she could easily send Twilight letters, so Discord was indifferent to Celestia for some unknown reason.
• Celestia still does almost nothing in "The Return of Harmony" anyways.

Celestia may have the power to move the sun, but too bad a team of unicorns can do the same thing. And that power sure came in handy when those villains showed up, especially at the end of season 4 when Twilight tried to praise the other alicorns.

At the very minimum, Twilight is more important to the safety of Equestria since Celestia hardly ever helps with that. "The Cutie Re-Mark" already confirmed that Equestria is nothing without the Mane 6 as friends. Friendship may be the strongest magic because that's the point of the show, but it's still stupid to make literally every other character chopped liver.

15 hours ago, The Artist Formerly Known As A.V. said:

In Lesson Zero, she broke Twilight's brainwashing over the town.

 

And in Keep Calm And Flutter On, she warded the Elements so Discord couldn't just teleport them away again.

Those are the only noteworthy feats of magic Celestia ever showed. And even the second one only worked because they didn't want to repeat "The Return of Harmony". Why didn't Celestia cast that new spell the first when she knew Discord was already too dangerous? So that was just for the sake of plot.

In other words, 2 wins out of an infinite number of losses means absolutely nothing.

[Castle Bleck 19,163]

7 hours ago, Number62 said:

Why didn't Celestia cast that new spell the first when she knew Discord was already too dangerous?

 

Might've been a new "upgrade" that hadn't been discovered at the time of The Return Of Harmony.

[Drunkfrank 1,125]

7 hours ago, Number62 said:

I'd say that Twilight is already stronger than Celestia because Celestia sucks as a guardian of Equestria. It's not hard to see that she has contributed nothing to any villain's defeat. There's "The Return of Harmony", but her help in that episode brings up other issues like:

• How did she know Twilight was in trouble when she wasn't with Twilight for almost the entire episode
• Why didn't Celestia help the Mane 6 find the Elements of Harmony? She may be weaker than Discord, but so are the Mane 6 without the Elements. Maybe Discord might take action if Celestia came along, but the episode doesn't say what she was up to. She seemed fine since she could easily send Twilight letters, so Discord was indifferent to Celestia for some unknown reason.
• Celestia still does almost nothing in "The Return of Harmony" anyways.

Celestia may have the power to move the sun, but too bad a team of unicorns can do the same thing. And that power sure came in handy when those villains showed up, especially at the end of season 4 when Twilight tried to praise the other alicorns.

At the very minimum, Twilight is more important to the safety of Equestria since Celestia hardly ever helps with that. "The Cutie Re-Mark" already confirmed that Equestria is nothing without the Mane 6 as friends. Friendship may be the strongest magic because that's the point of the show, but it's still stupid to make literally every other character chopped liver.

Those are the only noteworthy feats of magic Celestia ever showed. And even the second one only worked because they didn't want to repeat "The Return of Harmony". Why didn't Celestia cast that new spell the first when she knew Discord was already too dangerous? So that was just for the sake of plot.

In other words, 2 wins out of an infinite number of losses means absolutely nothing.

Uh, a team huh? More like a large group of powerful Unicorns who lose their magic forever after, Celestia and Luna were able to casually move the sun/moon and restore the magic of all those unicorns.

The reason Celestia didn't help is quite simple. She knew Twilight was destined to be an Alicorn and she knew Twilight could handle it. Hence why she was so confident in her during the Crystal Empire. Twilight and her friends are essential to Equestria because they are the elements of harmony, the true ones, the ponies destined for the Tree of Harmony.

Twilight is no match for Celestia in combat, she is simply more important than her to the safety of Equestria.

Also, the Cutie Remark showed Celestia was able of plenty of great things. She defeated Nightmare Moon, Sombra, Chrysalis, etc in many of the timelines (implied) And she was able to force King Sombra into a stand still in the Cutie Remark.

[Number62 1,246]

On 9/29/2017 at 8:40 AM, Ryanmahaffe said:

Uh, a team huh? More like a large group of powerful Unicorns who lose their magic forever after, Celestia and Luna were able to casually move the sun/moon and restore the magic of all those unicorns.

That book is about as canon as the comics and tie-in short novels since the show hasn't alluded to it.

On 9/29/2017 at 8:40 AM, Ryanmahaffe said:

Twilight is no match for Celestia in combat, she is simply more important than her to the safety of Equestria.

Celestia still has not proven herself in a fight.

On 9/29/2017 at 8:40 AM, Ryanmahaffe said:

The reason Celestia didn't help is quite simple. She knew Twilight was destined to be an Alicorn and she knew Twilight could handle it. Hence why she was so confident in her during the Crystal Empire. Twilight and her friends are essential to Equestria because they are the elements of harmony, the true ones, the ponies destined for the Tree of Harmony.

And this still doesn't excuse Celestia's inactivity.

The episodes could try to show that she is helpful by letting her actually contribute to solving the problems, which has never happened outside of the stuff with Discord.

On 9/29/2017 at 8:40 AM, Ryanmahaffe said:

Also, the Cutie Remark showed Celestia was able of plenty of great things. She defeated Nightmare Moon, Sombra, Chrysalis, etc in many of the timelines (implied) And she was able to force King Sombra into a stand still in the Cutie Remark.

There's no indication that Celestia successfully warded off the other villains in the timelines. And don't forget about the wasteland Equestria, which implied that she couldn't do anything to prevent it.

[Drunkfrank 1,125]

6 hours ago, Number62 said:

That book is about as canon as the comics and tie-in short novels since the show hasn't alluded to it.

Celestia still has not proven herself in a fight.

And this still doesn't excuse Celestia's inactivity.

The episodes could try to show that she is helpful by letting her actually contribute to solving the problems, which has never happened outside of the stuff with Discord.

There's no indication that Celestia successfully warded off the other villains in the timelines. And don't forget about the wasteland Equestria, which implied that she couldn't do anything to prevent it.

And when has Twilight ever proven herself in a fight, she wasn't able to best a unicorn and can't defeat any foe without her friends.

Ignoring the obvious implication that Celestia must have defeated the villains in a few of the timelines is baseless.

[RulesofRarity 489]

2 hours ago, Ryanmahaffe said:

And when has Twilight ever proven herself in a fight, she wasn't able to best a unicorn and can't defeat any foe without her friends.

Ignoring the obvious implication that Celestia must have defeated the villains in a few of the timelines is baseless.

The only reason Twilight wasn't able to defeat Starlight is due to plot armor. Season 4's finale established that the combined magic of 4 alicorns is enough to rival all the magic of regular ponies in Equestria. But in Season 5 one alicorn, the element of magic, can't defeat one unicorn because the plot requires it.

Spoiler

In addition to that the Season 7 finale established that Twilight is almost as strong as Starswirl.

 

[Drunkfrank 1,125]

4 minutes ago, RulesofRarity said:

The only reason Twilight wasn't able to defeat Starlight is due to plot armor. Season 4's finale established that the combined magic of 4 alicorns is enough to rival all the magic of regular ponies in Equestria. But in Season 5 one alicorn, the element of magic, can't defeat one unicorn because the plot requires it.

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In addition to that the Season 7 finale established that Twilight is almost as strong as Starswirl.

 

Spoiler

And Starswirl is not as powerful as Celestia or Luna...

Plot armor or not, Starlight was on par with Twilight. Celestia is more powerful than Twilight right now, Celestia seeming "weak" is just because of what you attempted to use as an argument.

Plot armor, the show is about Twilight and her friends (or starlight and her friends :/) defeating evil with the magic of friendship, it wouldn't work for Celestia to just defeat a villain alone, even when Twilight didn't save the day, it was friendship or love to do so.

Even if it is now non canon/secondary canon, comics/Journal tell us how powerful Celestia is.

Twilight, from what we have seen, likely couldn't muster enough magic to move the sun, where as Celestia can move it casually with no effort.

You could say it's an "ability" they have, but we have seen super powerful people can just move it with sheer magic like Discord.

[RulesofRarity 489]

9 minutes ago, Ryanmahaffe said:

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And Starswirl is not as powerful as Celestia or Luna...

Plot armor or not, Starlight was on par with Twilight. Celestia is more powerful than Twilight right now, Celestia seeming "weak" is just because of what you attempted to use as an argument.

Twilight, from what we have seen, likely couldn't muster enough magic to move the sun, where as Celestia can move it casually with no effort.

 

I agree that currently Celestia is stronger than Twilight( because as you said Twilight probably couldn't move the sun)however when I harp on Celestia it's because I believe she isn't a good fighter. Nothing from what we've seen suggests that Celestia is a good fighter.

[CypherHoof 26,479]

It's difficult to compare apples and oranges.

Celestia lost to Chrysalis, in a straight contest of power; that she can raise the sun would seem to be related to her cutie mark, so could be a specific exception, and of course for plot reasons she ends up needing to be rescued every time.

Starlight vs Twilight is a different matter. At the point of their battle, Starlight may not have been as powerful as Twi, but was better at fighting; by the time of ELTSD, she was clearly better at unicorn magic than Twi, but it has been stated (albeit by Zecora) that alicorn magic is not the same as unicorn magic, and it is entirely possible given the circumstances that Twi was limiting herself to purely unicorn magic vs her pupil,

Twilight herself got podded along with the rest of the Alicorns during the changeling thing, so clearly we can't use that as a gauge; Starlight defeated chrysalis there not with magic but by leveraging Thorax's stored love, and a successful Fasttalk roll vs changeling hive.

Starswirl is a special case of course. He is able to craft Legendary artifacts, so as a tool maker and user, he can far surpass any other magic user... given enough time to prepare.  I haven't seen the Finale yet, so can't comment on if that changes anything.

[Peter16373 103]

4 hours ago, CypherHoof said:

It's difficult to compare apples and oranges.

Celestia lost to Chrysalis, in a straight contest of power; that she can raise the sun would seem to be related to her cutie mark, so could be a specific exception, and of course for plot reasons she ends up needing to be rescued every time.

Starlight vs Twilight is a different matter. At the point of their battle, Starlight may not have been as powerful as Twi, but was better at fighting; by the time of ELTSD, she was clearly better at unicorn magic than Twi, but it has been stated (albeit by Zecora) that alicorn magic is not the same as unicorn magic, and it is entirely possible given the circumstances that Twi was limiting herself to purely unicorn magic vs her pupil,

Twilight herself got podded along with the rest of the Alicorns during the changeling thing, so clearly we can't use that as a gauge; Starlight defeated chrysalis there not with magic but by leveraging Thorax's stored love, and a successful Fasttalk roll vs changeling hive.

Starswirl is a special case of course. He is able to craft Legendary artifacts, so as a tool maker and user, he can far surpass any other magic user... given enough time to prepare.  I haven't seen the Finale yet, so can't comment on if that changes anything.

Queen Chrysalis absorbed love before challenging Celestia which was why she won, but in the end she even admitted she didn’t believe she can win even after absorbing love from Shining Armor.

Its already shown multiple times throughout the series that Starlight is one of the few unicorns capable of matching Alicorns in combat.

1. She was able to affect Twilight with her Cutie Mark magic in the Season 5 Premiere.

2. She was able to match Twilight in 1 on 1 combat during the Season 5 Finale.

3. She was able to match Twilight once again in Season 6 Episode 21.

4. She was able to affect the Royal Sisters with her Cutie Mark magic in Season 7 Episode 10.

Spoiler

5. She was able to push back a weakened Pony of Shadows by combing her magic with Twilight’s. For reference the Pony of Shadows in his weakened state was able to easily overwhelm Twilight who was stated to be almost as strong as Starswirl after getting serious.

Starswirl is just really powerful. But there are other unicorns that are even more powerful than he is in raw magic power. Also he didn’t craft legendary artifacts like 

Spoiler

The Elements of Harmony by himself. It required him as well as the Pillars of Old Equestria who are hinted at to be near equal to him in strength injecting their magic into a seed to create it.

 

[Drunkfrank 1,125]

4 minutes ago, Peter16373 said:

Queen Chrysalis absorbed love before challenging Celestia which was why she won, but in the end she even admitted she didn’t believe she can win even after absorbing love from Shining Armor.

Its already shown multiple times throughout the series that Starlight is one of the few unicorns capable of matching Alicorns in combat.

1. She was able to affect Twilight with her Cutie Mark magic in the Season 5 Premiere.

2. She was able to match Twilight in 1 on 1 combat during the Season 5 Finale.

3. She was able to match Twilight once again in Season 6 Episode 21.

4. She was able to affect the Royal Sisters with her Cutie Mark magic in Season 7 Episode 10.

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5. She was able to push back a weakened Pony of Shadows by combing her magic with Twilight’s. For reference the Pony of Shadows in his weakened state was able to easily overwhelm Twilight who was stated to be almost as strong as Starswirl after getting serious.

Starswirl is just really powerful. But there are other unicorns that are even more powerful than he is in raw magic power. Also he didn’t craft legendary artifacts like 

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The Elements of Harmony by himself. It required him as well as the Pillars of Old Equestria who are hinted at to be near equal to him in strength injecting their magic into a seed to create it.

 

And it should be noted that the elements/tree are still infinitely more powerful than Starswirl or the pillars of Equestria. It grew to be the "living spirit of the land"

[Castle Bleck 19,163]

10 minutes ago, Peter16373 said:

1. She was able to affect Twilight with her Cutie Mark magic in the Season 5 Premiere.

4. She was able to affect the Royal Sisters with her Cutie Mark magic in Season 7 Episode 10.

 

I think her Cutie Mark magic is a Kryptonite Factor instead of an actual power-indicator.

 

10 minutes ago, Peter16373 said:

2. She was able to match Twilight in 1 on 1 combat during the Season 5 Finale.

3. She was able to match Twilight once again in Season 6 Episode 21.

 

Can't argue with you there.

 

10 minutes ago, Peter16373 said:

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5. She was able to push back a weakened Pony of Shadows by combing her magic with Twilight’s. For reference the Pony of Shadows in his weakened state was able to easily overwhelm Twilight who was stated to be almost as strong as Starswirl after getting serious.

 

 

 

Not "easily," though; the POS was visibly struggling at first.

Edited October 10, 2017 by The Artist Formerly Known As A.V.