Does Starlight Glimmer have more character than Sunset Shimmer?

[ManaMinori 4,145]

As someone who disliked Starlight since her initial appearrance, all the way up to Celestial Advice, I gotta say...I never thought that I would be even raising this question. But As Starlights maturity and lessening reliance on trigger happily cast spells in stressful situations has become more evident, learning to overcome her fear of being put in a role of leadership again, overcoming a guilt complex which led her unable to forgive herself for her past mistakes rather than harping on them due of her lack of proper punishment for her crimes by the proper authority, her struggles to overcome starting anew with the perks of having anonymity in Ponyville, and wanting to connect with ponies who she seems to think are judging her, yet hevern't even heard of her- Starlight had a TON of flaws and quirks to have overcome, and has been made into a better character for it..... Sunset Shimmer's character development has been rather....lacking. I love the Shimms dearly, but good gravy, the girl doesn't seem to have any character flaws to overcome....just her anger issues. Other than that, I feel like there's really no hurdles of her own personality flaws to overcome, like Starlight Glimmer has and is still doing. Especially now with Sunset Shimmer's reunion with Celestia having been tackled.

This video, although a bit lengthy, covers everything wrong with Sunset's character in comparison to Starlight's, and their potential...or lack thereof.

 

Edited April 24, 2018 by Nightmare Muffin

[Goat-kun 2,527]

Can a shit game get more content that a good one? Not saying there are good characters in this debate. If I compare both of these who have been hated due to technical things to Ichigo from FranXX who became hated due to story-related things, the point comes across like an AC/20 slug trough a light mech.

 

P.S: Just you wait Starfoals. You think your waifu still has flaws? Get flanked.

 

P.P.S: Ichigo did nothing wrong.

[Thrond 3,263]

Starlight has character flaws in a way that Sunset doesn't, but often I feel that's about all there is to her. I once saw someone describe her as "Twilight Sparkle but edgy," and that's not too far off - I'm starting to appreciate that edge in season 8, but a disproportionate number of her character traits are things which other characters used to do, so I don't always feel like she adds that much of a new perspective to the show. Furthermore, all of her flaws are so severe that either the show emphasizes them so much that they override all other personality traits, or doesn't invoke them whatsoever. In basically any episode where she's the voice of reason, she just comes off as a touch bland, and that's encompassed all of her appearances so far. That said, I feel like season 8 has solidified her weirdly coarse personality a bit more, and I'm starting to see potential in her again.

But yeah, Sunset just doesn't have significant enough character flaws. Like all of Starlight's flaws, Sunset's anger is something the show scrambles to have her get over rather than an essential part of her character. The thing is, she has a more distinct flavour than Starlight, and the recent short series has done a great job of expanding upon her interests, hobbies, and career while also solidifying her "cool girl" persona. I still feel like parts of her story are undercooked in comparison to the mane six, but that's true of Starlight as well. 

So to answer your question: in some ways yes, but in some ways no. 

[Number62 1,258]

2 hours ago, Nightmare Muffin said:

overcoming a guilt complex which led her unable to forgive herself for her past mistakes rather than harping on them due of her lack of proper punishment for her crimes by the proper authority

2 hours ago, Nightmare Muffin said:

and wanting to connect with ponies who she seems to think are judging her, yet hevern't even heard of her-

When did these happen?

I haven't seen much of the new stuff that came out of MLP or EQG, and I don't really have much to say about either, but I'll see if I can give a satisfactory answer.

To answer your post, I'm not sure if making a character flawed is the best way to make them rounded. For one thing, if flaws are to be relied on, they have to mean something to the character being used.

I thought Luna's season 5 episode was awful because even though Luna felt excessive guilt, punished herself, and then learns to forgive herself, the episode could never answer the following question: So?

And since you were also asking about characters changing, I think this has something interesting to say about that.

[Lambdadelta 1,462]

Sunset filled with many positive traits that make her very delightful to watch but you cant relate to her. Starlight filled with many flaws that make her look edgy, but if you like flawed character then she is for you. With some recent character progression, Starlight character feel more balance now, only things she need right now are some new hobbies and character traits ( seriously, she just play kites too much...)

[Goat-kun 2,527]

6 hours ago, Lambdadelta said:

Sunset filled with many positive traits that make her very delightful to watch but you cant relate to her. Starlight filled with many flaws that make her look edgy, but if you like flawed character then she is for you. With some recent character progression, Starlight character feel more balance now, only things she need right now are some new hobbies and character traits ( seriously, she just play kites too much...)

How many years?

[King of Canterlot 9,603]

Does Starlight Glimmer have more character than Sunset Shimmer?

What is yes? 

Starlight Glimmer has way more character than Sunset Shimmer, from being the leader of a Communist Cult to becoming Twilight's student to eventually landing a job at the School of Friendship as a guidance counselor, Starlight has done and accomplished a lot from her appearance back in season 5. Could the same be said about Sunset Shimmer? She was a former student of Celestia's who ran away and became a bully in an alternate universe and she was eventually shown the magic of friendship and was reformed. But Sunset hasn't really grown or changed since then, and her accomplishments just...... don't feel quite as meaningful as Starlight's. There just seems to be....... more interesting things about Starlight's character with the things she's done compared to Sunset's character, who just kinda seemed like a bland bully who's been reformed and has no interesting personality now. Starlight has also been seen to interact more with the other secondary characters too, such as Trixie or Maud, unlike Sunset who only seems to hang out with the mane six. Now I'm not saying that Starlight is perfect by any means, because she's not, but overall when taking into account the things she's done and is still doing along with the friendships she's created with other ponies besides the mane six leads me to believe that she is in fact not only a better character, but that she has more character in the first place.   

[ShootingStar159 2,155]

Yes, she does.

It’s a problem with Sunset’s writing that’s been getting worse for a while now. This is an idea I’ve been batting around in my brain for a while now, and I think the best way to put it is that Sunset is generic, almost painfully so at this point. It’s not just the fact she lacks persistent character flaws that promote character growth, it’s that she lacks even basic negative personality quirks, like Dash’s ego, Rarity’s drama, AJ’s stubbornness, etc, etc. There’s nothing about her character that’s even remotely unlikable.

Forgotten Friendship tries to fix this by bringing back Sunsets ambition and pride in small doses, and it’s the first time her temper has actually been a real negative for her character. Yes, it’s understandable and therefore excusable so it doesn’t really make her look bad, but still, it’s a step in the right direction. I hope we see a continuation along those lines in the future.

Really, I think the bigger question is, “is this a problem?” EQG isn’t FiM, they’re different series with different genres. FiM is a twenty minute slice of life series, while EQG is a super hero “magic girl” movie franchise. I don’t think it’s fair to judge Sunset’s writing by slice of life standards when she isn’t a slice of life character. If we ignore the main series, I don’t think she’s that much less developed than the rest of the main cast.

[Lambdadelta 1,462]

@Goat-kun We dont have many seasons left now. If Starlight is what she is until the end, i am ok with this, it made sense to her character background anyway. Starlight character are already GOOD, i just want the writers do MORE, oh well... At least she wont end u like Diamond Tiara.

@King of Canterlot Starlight definitely a character that you have a lot of things to talk about, like her or not.

[BlackPony 77]

>Both were lackluster villains 

>Both had terrible reformations

>I personally bought neither of their reformations

>Sunset was still hated by everyone in Canterlot High, barring the humane 5, showing that the other students didn’t buy her redemption either, so she was  easier to sympathize with.

>Starlight had.... a guilt complex. No external force actually hated her, other than occasionally being the but of jokes, so she was harder to sympathize with.

>In Rainbow Rocks, Sunset knew that the humane 5 were falling apart, and she had to get them to stop and realize that this was what the Dazzlings wanted. In the final battle, the humane 6 allowed Sunset to sing with them, winning the battle.

> In To Where And Back Again, The mane 7, And almost everyone except Starlight, Trixie, Discord, and Thorax got captured because.... they weren’t important enough?

>In Shadow Play, everyone held the idiot ball minus Starlight, and she had to be the one to reform Stygian because... no one else could. You could argue here that she was the only one who could sympathize with her because she was also a reformed villain, and while that is true, Twi is still the princess of friendship, and she honestly held the biggest idiot ball of them all.

>In Friendship Games, Sunset had to talk Twilight out of her evil form, she had to talk Gloriousa out of trapping Camp Everfree, but unlike Starlight redeeming Stygian, and attempting to redeem Chrysalis, Sunset actually offered her assistance to help Gloriousa save the camp, so her “redemption” wasn’t for nothing. With the exception of maybe forgotten friendship, Sunset has saved the day alongside the humane 5, and Starlight  has stolen the spotlight both times she did.

 

tl;dr Sunset>>>>>>>>>>>>>>(insert several more here)>>>>>>>>>>>>>Starlight 

 

(Sorry for the long read)

Edited April 24, 2018 by BlackPony
Forgot to put down Sunsets name in one paragraph

[J.J 922]

They are both short tempered, outside of the box thinkers, who are looking ahead for solutions, but have both made great mistakes in their past. Their similarities are insurmountable in comparison to any other two characters... Starlight is an incredible character, NOBODY EVER SAID SHE "did nothing wrong" we are saying she learned from her mistakes, forgiving one, and not the other is utterly ridiculous, they both had plans of enslavement, one even persisted on mindless enslavement.. They both have MULTIPLE redeeming qualities. My whole thing is, the reason for so many hating Starlight, is something that Sunset is commonly forgiven for... Yeah Starlight was proud and came back to fight on behalf of her prior failures, but Sunset was just in no position to do the same, there is no assurance, that she would have not done the same...

[Castle Bleck 19,334]

 

At first, I didn't like Starlight as much as Sunset.

 

But now I like them roughly equally.

[BlackPony 77]

I will say that I’ll be optimistic about Starlight in the future. 

Spoiler

Looking at the season 8 synopsis for each episode, it doesn’t looking like DHX is going to do the same things with her this time around, which admittedly, is ultimately my problem with her character.

 

23 minutes ago, Aquaflame said:

 NOBODY EVER SAID SHE "did nothing wrong" we are saying she learned from her mistakes, forgiving one, and not the other is utterly ridiculous 

Sunset was just in no position to do the same, there is no assurance, that she would have not done the same...

A. I didn’t accuse people of saying that she did nothing wrong. I was just saying that Sunset was much easier to root for and sympathize with, because she actually had to struggle to get to where she is; no one besides the humane 6 liked her, let alone trusted her. 

B. I kept referring to the writers “doing something” for Sunset because I feel that Starlight’s episodes are repetitive; most of her episodes are either her screwing up or doing something reprehensible and either getting away with it with a slap on the wrist(Every Little Thing She Does) or having it work out in the end out of sheer luck(To Change A Changeling), and most of her other episodes are just playing the straight mare to better characters like Maud, Trixie, and even Sunburst. 

C. What exactly do you mean by the last statement?

[Goat-kun 2,527]

8 hours ago, Lambdadelta said:

@Goat-kun We dont have many seasons left now. If Starlight is what she is until the end, i am ok with this, it made sense to her character background anyway. Starlight character are already GOOD, i just want the writers do MORE, oh well... At least she wont end u like Diamond Tiara.

I'll just take it that you mean good enough for you and not good good. The former claim is irrelevant and the latter would be preposterous. I wasn't talking just about the last season. When you buy a home appliance, do you expect it to work properly right after the purchase, or are you fine with it being broken for a few years?

[Lambdadelta 1,462]

4 hours ago, Goat-kun said:

When you buy a home appliance, do you expect it to work properly right after the purchase, or are you fine with it being broken for a few years?

I dont know what are you trying to imply. The 'home appliance' you mean the show itself or the character that we are talking about? A home appliance is expected to be functional and work as intended, if you want it to be better than it already has, just BUY A BETTER ONE. Shows or characters can be improved to become better than it already has (breaking the status quo). Invest for the show is more like invest for a football player, not like purchase a dishwasher machine and expect it be much better than the newer version.

4 hours ago, Goat-kun said:

I'll just take it that you mean good enough for you and not good good. The former claim is irrelevant and the latter would be preposterous

How so? I will be fine if they stick with the status quo until the last episode but I still want it to be much better than it already has. How is it irrelevant?

4 hours ago, Goat-kun said:

I wasn't talking just about the last season.

Then what?  The show will end soon and G5 is coming which is a reboot. Are we talking about the same show? And what are you talking about? Be more direct, less snarky, plz.

 

[Thrond 3,263]

8 hours ago, BlackPony said:

B. I kept referring to the writers “doing something” for Sunset because I feel that Starlight’s episodes are repetitive; most of her episodes are either her screwing up or doing something reprehensible and either getting away with it with a slap on the wrist(Every Little Thing She Does) or having it work out in the end out of sheer luck(To Change A Changeling), and most of her other episodes are just playing the straight mare to better characters like Maud, Trixie, and even Sunburst. 

Yeah, this. And I don't really feel she has a strong, distinct enough personality to really stand on her own when she's not messing up in some way or another. 

And, while this is slightly off topic from the original post, I get pretty frustrated that Starlight has on several occasions been the voice of reason relative to the mane six, but the opposite almost never happens. 

[Goat-kun 2,527]

15 hours ago, Lambdadelta said:

I dont know what are you trying to imply. The 'home appliance' you mean the show itself or the character that we are talking about? A home appliance is expected to be functional and work as intended, if you want it to be better than it already has, just BUY A BETTER ONE. Shows or characters can be improved to become better than it already has (breaking the status quo). Invest for the show is more like invest for a football player, not like purchase a dishwasher machine and expect it be much better than the newer version.

How so? I will be fine if they stick with the status quo until the last episode but I still want it to be much better than it already has. How is it irrelevant?

Then what?  The show will end soon and G5 is coming which is a reboot. Are we talking about the same show? And what are you talking about? Be more direct, less snarky, plz.

 

I was talking about all the seasons we've gotten. Add the remark about the home appliance. If it takes the might of H-Bro years to upgrade a character into a functional state, then the fate of MLP has already been sealed.

 

Remember the Spaghetti-O's. It doesn't matter what you think is good if you can't back your shit up. Again you are conflating certain traits and actions with good design. Breaking status quo? We've been through this. Nothing is good design by itself. That is why I mentioned Ichigo. Good design does not shield a character from being hated by the audience; in fact, hate can be a writer's intention. And I ain't even talking about the villains.

 

A character performs exactly how they are designed. These puppets have more in common with an appliance than a football player. Of course, like repairmen, writers are usually the ones privy to their characters' inner workings.

 

Character improvement?  What does that even mean? They can grow, they can develop, but for them to be improved? A character can turn good or evil. Surely such a development can be seen as improvement by the viewer but that is only story progression. If one feels that a character needs to be improved then there is something wrong with their design.

[Dark Qiviut 22,388]

7 hours ago, BlackPony said:

>Both were lackluster villains 

Only Sunset was a lackluster villain. In EQG1, she was nothing more than a stereotypical alpha bitch whose legendary incompetence almost singlehandedly killed the film. The fact that she thought glued-on photos were viable enough to frame Twilight for destroying the gym outclasses anyone in sheer stupidity.

Starlight Glimmer was one of the most dangerous villains of the entire series: All of her actions to keep her cult intact replicated a lot of real life, including using an authentic brainwashing technique upon the M6. Unlike previous villains, she was a literal equal to them instead of a monster from some faraway land who believed that the Magic of Friendship as present was only going to contribute to further inequality. Starlight was more grounded and well-rounded as a villain, even during Re-Mark.

7 hours ago, BlackPony said:

>Both had terrible reformations

Again, REALLY disagree.

1. Sunset's reformation is backed by a Deus Ex Machina (the Elements of Harmony aren't supposed to trigger and activate when not donned by their respective bearers), and Sunset's personality was completely reset following the Rainbow Beam. Between Rainbow Rocks and Forgotten Friendship, Sunset was a really flat character with no genuine flaws to balance her out. Forgotten Friendship was the very first time her negatives had a large impact on the story, such as her pride and temper; rather than a reset, FF's Sunset feels like a more organic progression of her character.
2. Starlight's is much more complicated. She retained massive scars from a child because Sunburst was inexplicably taken away. One minute, they were having a good day, the next, Sunburst gained a mark and was sent off to Canterlot. Starlight experienced a form of loss due to circumstances beyond her control; recall how she blamed cutie mark magic for their split and her pain.
   
   This is what formed her train of thought that culminated into the nameless village. Cutie marks were a trauma trigger, and she didn't want anyone else to go through a similar experience again, so she created that talent depressor. Doesn't make her actions any less evil, but the audience gets to understand through her own experience.
   
   But what makes her reformation stand out is she chose to change when given the opportunity. Twilight pleaded with her to give the true Magic of Friendship a second chance, and a chance for her to change her ways and become better. Rather than Twilight acting like an Equestrian ruler, she spoke to Starlight as an equal. When Twilight offered her that opportunity, Starlight trusted her and gave the MoF a chance.

Twilight could have punished her, and Starlight would've accepted it, but FIM is proactive and idealistic than reactive and realistic. Punishing her would've been a major detriment to the RM7 and the show's theme of self-improvement. Teaching her the MoF is a more viable solution.

7 hours ago, BlackPony said:

>In Shadow Play, everyone held the idiot ball minus Starlight, and she had to be the one to reform Stygian because... no one else could. You could argue here that she was the only one who could sympathize with her because she was also a reformed villain, and while that is true, Twi is still the princess of friendship, and she honestly held the biggest idiot ball of them all.

There are many words to describe Shadow Play; "idiot (ball)" ain't one of them.

1. Twilight had reason to return the Pillars from Limbo. They were six of the best and most powerful magical beings throughout the land, including Star Swirl himself. Modern-day Equestria may be really safe in comparison to the era they spent most of their lives in, but bringing them back would make Equestria safer. Unfortunately, she made a massive mistake in bringing them back and was so rightfully embarrassed for what she did that he spent a great deal of time working to fix it (while proving to Star Swirl he can trust her after her disastrous first impression).
2. Everyone was justified to trust the Pillars' impressions of Stygian. After he was cast out, he turned to the dark side with thirst for revenge…and almost succeeded. He was such a major threat to the realm's stability that they had to sacrifice themselves to save it. The era they lived in was far more volatile than Twilight's, evident by the dialogue while in Manehattan, terrors like the Sirens invading their land, and the lack of quiet, dark places for him to regenerate. To make it more painful, Stygian used to be one of their own and was rightfully called out for stealing their prized possessions, all of which were keys to stabilize the realm.
3. But Starlight was just as justified to give Stygian the benefit of the doubt. To quote your paragraph, she reformed and redeemed. But unlike the others, she lived her life as a villain, so she's more capable of looking into other ponies' horseshoes than her friends. Everyone was absolutely in the right to plan to defeat the Pony of Shadows before he regenerates to unleash a full-scale assault, even when the Map got involved. But Starlight isn't looking for a quick fix, but a real fix to figure out how this bitter rift even happened. The Map calling the RM6 to Hollow Shades humanizes the conflict and allows the audience to connect to SG on a very personal level. Her brief exchange with Star Swirl (who was justifiably bitter of Stygian) crushed her, because chances are if she encountered him instead of her, he wouldn't be so quick to forgive. S7 really brought a massive growth in her character, especially Uncommon Bond and this one.

On 4/24/2018 at 2:59 PM, BlackPony said:

most of her episodes are either her screwing up or doing something reprehensible and either getting away with it with a slap on the wrist(Every Little Thing She Does)

ELTSD is the only time she truly doesn't earn justifiable consequences. The other times where her questionable actions affected the whole plot, she punished herself so badly that she would've woken up emotionally broken hadn't Celestia got involved in the climax; and Thorax called her and Trixie out for talking behind Pharynx's back and their subsequently stupid plan.

[KH7672 1,604]

On 4/24/2018 at 11:27 PM, AlexanderThrond said:

And, while this is slightly off topic from the original post, I get pretty frustrated that Starlight has on several occasions been the voice of reason relative to the mane six, but the opposite almost never happens. 

I'll take on this criticism with a no, no she hasn't. In all her appearances she was that voice of reason four times(possibly five); twice to Twilight (Shadow Play and School Daze) once to Pinkie (Rock Solid Friendship) and once to Sunset Shimmer(Mirror Magic) and the fifth could be Fame and Misfortune or A Royal Problem but that was more of an "outsider-to-the-conflict" role she filled. However compare that to how many times someone was her voice of reason: Spike (The Crystalling, Every Little Thing She Does), Twilight(No Second Prances, Every Little Thing She Does, Uncommon Bond), Trixie (To Where and Back Again), The Re-mane 5 (Every Little Thing She Does, To Where and Back Again-near the beginning), and Thorax(To Change a Changeling). And even still the stories justified her being the voice of reason by showing the how the conflict affected her. Being dragged around by Pinkie or putting herself in one's shoes, it's a natural mindset to have in the conflict. I would totally understand the frustration if she just randomly entered the conflict with a "What's wrong?" followed immediately by "Oh here's the solution/moral of the day" (looking at you Season 1 Twilight in CMC episodes). I will say Mirror Magic would be closest to this but Starlight herself says only "what she would do in such a situation" and not certainly implying she knows Sunset more to know the best solution.

Speaking of Sunset she has fallen more into the voice of reason quite a few times as well (twice in the films and at least three times in the shorts) even more so since she took the de facto leader role of the group, only receiving it herself in Friendship Games and Forgotten Friendship by the Mane 5 and Trixie respectively. Still every time so far has felt justified; even in the shorts like in her path in "Text Support" logically being the one to talk directly instead of over the phone due to where she's from. However, like the main thread says there could be times Sunset needs others to be her voice of reason if only she was given more conflict to expand on her character and contrast with others.

[Thrond 3,263]

3 hours ago, KH7672 said:

I'll take on this criticism with a no, no she hasn't. In all her appearances she was that voice of reason four times(possibly five); twice to Twilight (Shadow Play and School Daze) once to Pinkie (Rock Solid Friendship) and once to Sunset Shimmer(Mirror Magic) and the fifth could be Fame and Misfortune or A Royal Problem but that was more of an "outsider-to-the-conflict" role she filled. However compare that to how many times someone was her voice of reason: Spike (The Crystalling, Every Little Thing She Does), Twilight(No Second Prances, Every Little Thing She Does, Uncommon Bond), Trixie (To Where and Back Again), The Re-mane 5 (Every Little Thing She Does, To Where and Back Again-near the beginning), and Thorax(To Change a Changeling). And even still the stories justified her being the voice of reason by showing the how the conflict affected her. Being dragged around by Pinkie or putting herself in one's shoes, it's a natural mindset to have in the conflict. I would totally understand the frustration if she just randomly entered the conflict with a "What's wrong?" followed immediately by "Oh here's the solution/moral of the day" (looking at you Season 1 Twilight in CMC episodes). I will say Mirror Magic would be closest to this but Starlight herself says only "what she would do in such a situation" and not certainly implying she knows Sunset more to know the best solution.

This might be a big part of why I like her more in season 6 than season 7. Also, while she's less successful in this instance, she does play a neutral/"straight mare" role in "The Maud Couple," which for me makes four since season 7 - exclusively counting the mane six - versus one for the reverse. I agree that most of those cases are appropriate (I do not like "Shadow Play"), but I just don't see any evidence in future synopses that this weird imbalance will change. 

[TBD 17,254]

oh-oh, a comparison that might cause a rip in mlp's universe. 

[BlackPony 77]

17 hours ago, Dark Qiviut said:

Starlight's is much more complicated. She retained massive scars from a child because Sunburst was inexplicably taken away. One minute, they were having a good day, the next, Sunburst gained a mark and was sent off to Canterlot. Starlight experienced a form of loss due to circumstances beyond her control; recall how she blamed cutie mark magic for their split and her pain.

The problem with that is that she went straight to 100 after only one 'tragic' event. She even explicitly stated that she never made another friend. You could argue that she was too afraid that another cutie mark would take her away, but it still doesn't matter when she only tried once. If she tried several times to make new friends, and their cutie marks 'took them away', then it would be acceptable, like how Gloriousa in Legend of Everfree tried so many times in different ways to get Filthy Rich not to close the Camp, and she felt like she had no other options but to go crazy with protecting the camp. The difference is that Gloriousa didn't immediately go to the dark side, and she actually had a justified reason for doing so. 

17 hours ago, Dark Qiviut said:

But what makes her reformation stand out is she chose to change when given the opportunity. 

....Haven't all of the reformed villains done this? 

Sure, Discord didn't do so right away, but he eventually came through.

17 hours ago, Dark Qiviut said:

Everyone was justified to trust the Pillars' impressions of Stygian. After he was cast out, he turned to the dark side with thirst for revenge…and almost succeeded. He was such a major threat to the realm's stability that they had to sacrifice themselves to save it. The era they lived in was far more volatile than Twilight's, evident by the dialogue while in Manehattan, terrors like the Sirens invading their land, and the lack of quiet, dark places for him to regenerate. To make it more painful, Stygian used to be one of their own and was rightfully called out for stealing their prized possessions, all of which were keys to stabilize the realm.

I actually somewhat agree with this; I didn't say whether Stygian should've been redeemed or not, but honestly, this entire 'tragic villain and snapshot redemption' plot line is getting really tired at this point. You can say "Friendship is Magic" but I feel like it's just an excuse to force villains to get redemptions. It also can tell kids that you should constantly forgive people who do terrible things, which is pretty toxic. 

Spoiler

And it doesn't help that Tirek is very likely to get redeemed in the season 8 finale.

 

17 hours ago, Dark Qiviut said:

ELTSD is the only time she truly doesn't earn justifiable consequences. 

Thorax called her and Trixie out for talking behind Pharynx's back and their subsequently stupid plan.

ELTSD, Starlight got a talk from Twilight, and a brief verbal beat down from the remane 5. And that's it.

Thorax calling her out isn't that far off from that so called 'consequence'.

In Princess Spike, Spike had to face consequences for his actions, and actually fix his mistakes, and face the crowd that he screwed up with, even if it still isn't much, it's still something. Feeling bad for yourself, like you mentioned with A Royal Problem, is not a consequence. 

In Boast Busters, while Trixie didn't necessarily receive a punishment, she was shat on by everypony and her career was pretty much destroyed. And even that's a better reason to get revenge on Twilight then Starlight's vendetta with cutie marks, or Stygian or Tempest's motivations to become evil. 

But I digress on all of that. Even though Lily Peet, now Lily Orchard is controversial, I feel like her seventy times seven explains why Sunset succeeds where Starlight doesn't. I can't post the URL for some reason though. 

Can Starlight get better? Yes. Whether she will or not depends on if Hasbro is willing to do something with her, instead of just thinking what they have is enough.  

 

[DonMaguz 1,023]

44 minutes ago, BlackPony said:

19 hours ago, Dark Qiviut said:

But what makes her reformation stand out is she chose to change when given the opportunity.

....Haven't all of the reformed villains done this? 

Nope, Sunset was defeated, ridden off her newest powers and didn't have a choice but to accept Twilight's offer.

Starlight was about to break the scroll and prevent for the last time the Sonic Rainboom from happening. She had a choice to make, believing in Twilight in giving friendship a chance or finishing her revenge on the mane 6. She chose Twilight's offer while being on the driver's seat, there's the difference.

[ShootingStar159 2,155]

1 hour ago, BlackPony said:

Even though Lily Peet, now Lily Orchard is controversial, I feel like her seventy times seven explains why Sunset succeeds where Starlight doesn't.

So, you pretty clearly didn’t even watch the linked video here, because it a breakdown on that Lilly Orchard video, and why it’s wrong on almost every point made. Even wrong in some ways that the vid doesn’t address.

[Thrond 3,263]

1 hour ago, BlackPony said:

ELTSD, Starlight got a talk from Twilight, and a brief verbal beat down from the remane 5. And that's it.

 

1 hour ago, BlackPony said:

In Princess Spike, Spike had to face consequences for his actions, and actually fix his mistakes, and face the crowd that he screwed up with

Starlight does all of those things in the end of "Every Little Thing She Does." I have issues with the episode, but I don't think people give it enough credit; it's the one time where Twilight's approach to Starlight's consistently extreme mistakes makes sense.