Does Starlight Glimmer have more character than Sunset Shimmer?

[Lambdadelta 1,462]

13 hours ago, AlexanderThrond said:

Starlight does all of those things in the end of "Every Little Thing She Does." I have issues with the episode, but I don't think people give it enough credit; it's the one time where Twilight's approach to Starlight's consistently extreme mistakes makes sense. 

 A.K.A Every Little Thing You Need To Know About Starlight Glimmer.

Making extreme mistakes is one of enjoyable aspect of Starlight character which they don't use it frequently nowadays (the backlash)... Maybe I am the only one who enjoy whenever Starlight use her magics to cause problems. 

[Thrond 3,263]

4 hours ago, Lambdadelta said:

 A.K.A Every Little Thing You Need To Know About Starlight Glimmer.

Making extreme mistakes is one of enjoyable aspect of Starlight character which they don't use it frequently nowadays (the backlash)... Maybe I am the only one who enjoy whenever Starlight use her magics to cause problems. 

It's not very endearing, which is why I started to get tired of it when it did happen in season 7. But it's also one of her only character traits I'm interested in. 

[Lambdadelta 1,462]

44 minutes ago, AlexanderThrond said:

It's not very endearing, which is why I started to get tired of it when it did happen in season 7. But it's also one of her only character traits I'm interested in. 

 Some people hate her S6, some people see her S7 as her saving grace. Cant please everyone, you know? I enjoy her characters in S6 and S7, what I want from S8 is a mixture of both.

[J.J 922]

On ‎4‎/‎24‎/‎2018 at 2:59 PM, BlackPony said:

I will say that I’ll be optimistic about Starlight in the future. 

  Hide contents

Looking at the season 8 synopsis for each episode, it doesn’t looking like DHX is going to do the same things with her this time around, which admittedly, is ultimately my problem with her character.

 

A. I didn’t accuse people of saying that she did nothing wrong. I was just saying that Sunset was much easier to root for and sympathize with, because she actually had to struggle to get to where she is; no one besides the humane 6 liked her, let alone trusted her. 

B. I kept referring to the writers “doing something” for Sunset because I feel that Starlight’s episodes are repetitive; most of her episodes are either her screwing up or doing something reprehensible and either getting away with it with a slap on the wrist(Every Little Thing She Does) or having it work out in the end out of sheer luck(To Change A Changeling), and most of her other episodes are just playing the straight mare to better characters like Maud, Trixie, and even Sunburst. 

C. What exactly do you mean by the last statement?

It means Sunset underestimated the potential of the elements of harmony, assuming she knew anything about them, feeling confident as she did to leave Celestia when she did, she felt consequence could no longer reach her, and it hit her very hard, and she wasn't in the same "strategic" position as Starlight, to flee, observe, plan, and ultimately return... Sunset was given an ultimatum in the moment pretty quickly.

[bluseymoe 258]

No way. Starlight doesn't so much have character as she has a lot of serious mental issues. They don't give her much depth, they just make me wonder why the hell she isn't locked up. But I guess that's what happens when a great villain character is given a forced redemption. 

[Dark Qiviut 22,388]

On 4/26/2018 at 5:07 PM, BlackPony said:

The problem with that is that she went straight to 100 after only one 'tragic' event. She even explicitly stated that she never made another friend.

There's a big reason why. Sunburst wasn't just her best friend, but her only friend. They split due to circumstances beyond her control.

On 4/26/2018 at 5:07 PM, BlackPony said:

You could argue that she was too afraid that another cutie mark would take her away

Don't have to: Starlight directly stated this to Twi and Spike.

Quote

Starlight Glimmer: Because of his cutie mark! He got his, and I didn't! He moved on, and I didn't! I stayed here and never made another friend because I was too afraid another cutie mark would take them away, too!

If she were an adult at the time, then her warped logic would be silly, but Starlight was a child, and children's reactions are more emotional than logical. Her scarred childhood memory was so ingrained into her psyche, it completely affected her worldview from that point forward. No, she didn't jump to creating Our Town or become that cult leader immediately; she became that way over time.

On 4/26/2018 at 5:07 PM, BlackPony said:

....Haven't all of the reformed villains done this? 

No. Diabolous Ex Sunset was defeated, was at her lowest moment in that crater, and Twilight extended her hand. Twilight was at Starlight's mercy and needed to be convinced to give friendship a chance. Starlight reluctantly surrendered her revenge plot to give friendship a second chance.

On 4/26/2018 at 5:07 PM, BlackPony said:

I actually somewhat agree with this; I didn't say whether Stygian should've been redeemed or not, but honestly, this entire 'tragic villain and snapshot redemption' plot line is getting really tired at this point. You can say "Friendship is Magic" but I feel like it's just an excuse to force villains to get redemptions. It also can tell kids that you should constantly forgive people who do terrible things, which is pretty toxic. 

1. FIM may cross into realism often, but it's a very idealistic series; it doesn't operate under real-life social norms. One of its biggest themes, dating back to the beginning, is the ability to self-improve. Villains and antagonists like Discord, Trixie, DT, Sunset, Gilda, Starlight, and Tempest all behaved horribly, recognized it, and worked to fix it. The show refused to tolerate their bad behavior.
2. You're looking for an implication that doesn't exist. FIM's more about the journey over the destination; often, we as an audience know the conclusion the minute the intro rolls, but the storytelling in between is what makes or breaks our interests.
   
   The CMCs had every reason to be bitter towards Diamond Tiara. After all, she abused them, manipulated them, made fun of Scoots's disability, and so on. But rather than be bitter, the CMCs worked to help Diamond Tiara become nicer, more self-confident, and become a better leader.
   
   Already explained Stygian and SG.
   
   Tempest turned into a villain as a result of childhood trauma. Her sudden disability scared everyone away, leaving her alone. When she pleaded for help, no one supported her. The Storm King manipulated her into joining him, and she accepted the offer, because she felt she could trust him. Recall that throughout, her goal was to regain her horn in spite of the tremendous power she harnessed as a result of her disability: The restoration of her horn meant regaining the dignity and peace she lost long ago. Twilight was one of the only ponies to not dismiss her and take her pain seriously, foreshadowing her reformation later on.
   
   As of late, when FIM wants to reform a villain or antagonist, chances are DHX knows what they're doing. The execution of their reformations determines their believability, and many have worked. When they don't, DHX can figure it out, which they did with the changelings.

On 4/26/2018 at 5:07 PM, BlackPony said:

In Princess Spike, Spike had to face consequences for his actions, and actually fix his mistakes, and face the crowd that he screwed up with, even if it still isn't much, it's still something.

Princess Spike really screwed that conflict up. Where Spike messed up, he was trying to do the right thing so Twilight can sleep peacefully. But the whole conflict swerves to point to his greed as the cause of the problem, when his greed is entirely disconnected from the mistakes he made earlier. The lesson he learned and the moral taught are non-sequiturs.

On 4/26/2018 at 5:07 PM, BlackPony said:

Feeling bad for yourself, like you mentioned with A Royal Problem, is not a consequence.

There's a major difference between feeling bad for themself and self-inflicting themself to the point of threatening their own sanity. Starlight experienced the latter from A Royal Problem; if Celestia didn't defeat her nightmare, then Starlight's already-fragile psyche becomes damaged.

On 4/26/2018 at 5:07 PM, BlackPony said:

Even though Lily Peet, now Lily Orchard is controversial

There are so many adjectives to describe Lily Orchard, and "controversial" ain't one of them. Abusive, farcicial, fradulent, egomaniacal, deflective, and (for her arguments) manipulative. Everything she writes and speaks in her arguments don't strengthen her own, but to tear others' down, even if their logic holds up better than hers, and that is by design. She argues by guilting the audience, manipulating them through buzzwords, phrases, and common use of the "argument by intimidation" fallacy to appear to be the better debater. She is objectively atrocious at arguing. At most, her "arguments" are long-winded hot takes, and LowPonView's video response to Lily in the OP is one example, of many, providing how bad she is at it.

On 4/26/2018 at 5:07 PM, BlackPony said:

Can Starlight get better? Yes.

And she has gotten better. Season 7 was a major improvement in both her character and direction thereof. She was the most consistent and best written of the Mane 8 with no genuinely bad or mediocre appearances. To echo from the video, everything she learned from S6 affected her in S7.

Her lead role in Uncommon Bond is one of her most sympathetic: She yearns to spend quality time with Sunburst, but is forced to take a back seat as he bonded better with Twi, Maud, and Trixie. Each time he bonded with them, we as an audience witness her stress, and it becomes more heartbreaking to see her so isolated. This is why her rash decision to attempt to physically recreate their childhood memories is creepy, yet understandable: She's desperate to reconnect with someone she was really close with and doesn't want to lose it.

Edited April 28, 2018 by Dark Qiviut

[Will Guide 21,360]

11 minutes ago, Dark Qiviut said:

There's a big reason why. Sunburst wasn't just her best friend, but her only friend. They split due to circumstances beyond her control.

Don't have to argue it: Starlight directly stated this to Twi and Spike.

If she were an adult at the time, then her warped logic would be silly, but Starlight was a child, and children's reactions are more emotional than logical. Her scarred childhood memory was so ingrained into her psyche, it completely affected her worldview from that point forward. No, she didn't jump to creating Our Town or become that cult leader immediately; she became that way over time.

Yeah, I understood that about Starlight from the first time I saw the S5 Finale.

[Wonderbolt Slipstream 263]

Unfortunately, Sunset Shimmer can't get as much character development as Starlight Glimmer, so it's a bit unfair.

[CypherHoof 26,482]

20 minutes ago, Slipstream95 said:

Unfortunately, Sunset Shimmer can't get as much character development as Starlight Glimmer, so it's a bit unfair.

  Well, that's a difficult one. her redemption arc was a full length movie, she had a bunch of character development in the next two movies, plus the recent special. GlimGlam was poorly handled in S6; either she was an episode focus, or she was completely absent - that has been fixed starting halfway though S7, so we now see her interacting more with the rest of the cast and being supportive, but I wouldn't be surprised if the amount of onscreen time both have had is about equal by now.

  Was great to see Sunset finally make her apology to Celestia though.

Also, given we now know Sunset is "flanksey" that puts a whole new wrinkle on her offer to help the CMC at the start of /rainbow rocks/

[Brainstorm 4,107]

I don't think so, I think they have equal character cause they both went through similar situations and everything turned out okay for them.

[Will Guide 21,360]

On 4/30/2018 at 10:43 AM, CypherHoof said:

  Also, given we now know Sunset is "flanksey" that puts a whole new wrinkle on her offer to help the CMC at the start of /rainbow rocks/

what the heck are you talking about? If you mean Sunset's now a blank flank, you're ignoring this:
(spoilers for Forgotten Friendship):

Spoiler

She's clearly not a blank flank.

As for my opinion of this topic, well if you want me to be honest, this topic about who's the better reformed unicorn and bashing the other is very childish. They BOTH have their pros and cons and when they met up in-universe, neither Unicorn EVER tried to one up the other. They got along just fine. And if they can get along, then it's my belief that we should respect their friendship and leave their made up non-existent rivalry just that: made up and non-existent. 
 

[KH7672 1,604]

1 hour ago, SwitchGuy2018 said:

what the heck are you talking about? If you mean Sunset's now a blank flank, you're ignoring this:
(spoilers for Forgotten Friendship):

  Reveal hidden contents

She's clearly not a blank flank.

"Flanksy" is Sunset's graffiti artist name (a play on the famous UK graffiti artist "Banksy"). This identity was introduced in the short "Rarity's Display of Affection"

I believe he was just commenting on the irony of Sunset's hidden artistry talent being unknowingly turned down back in Rainbow Rocks. I'm assing that "wrinkle" being referred to is now not just was Sunset trying to reach out to help but she was trying to help with something she knew she was good at and still turned down. That had to be crushing.

[Will Guide 21,360]

14 minutes ago, KH7672 said:

"Flanksy" is Sunset's graffiti artist name (a play on the famous UK graffiti artist "Banksy"). This identity was introduced in the short "Rarity's Display of Affection"

I believe he was just commenting on the irony of Sunset's hidden artistry talent being unknowingly turned down back in Rainbow Rocks. I'm assing that "wrinkle" being referred to is now not just was Sunset trying to reach out to help but she was trying to help with something she knew she was good at and still turned down. That had to be crushing.

Oh! That kind of Flanksy. She never directly was called Flanksy in the short so I wouldn't have known. Sorry to @CypherHoof for misunderstanding.

[CypherHoof 26,482]

6 hours ago, SwitchGuy2018 said:

As for my opinion of this topic, well if you want me to be honest, this topic about who's the better reformed unicorn and bashing the other is very childish. They BOTH have their pros and cons and when they met up in-universe, neither Unicorn EVER tried to one up the other. They got along just fine. And if they can get along, then it's my belief that we should respect their friendship and leave their made up non-existent rivalry just that: made up and non-existent.

I don't think that's the same question. Quite a few of our ponies are near one-dimensional - a few of the background ponies get SOME development, but a lot of what the fanbase "know" about them is purely fan generated.  The main cast ponies get a bunch more development, but as newer characters (and even as expanded Mane characters) both Sunset and Starlight have had less time to develop their on-screen personalities because they have had less time onscreen.

These two in particular DO often get unfair comparisons because they started as counterparts to each other in the two universes; both look to Twilight as their moral compass, so can be said to be her students (even if not officially in Sunset's case) and both were on power trips that Twilight took away from them.

Spoiler

Both seem to have Trixie as their first non-Mane6 friend too

In this case though, the question is fair enough; these are major characters, and while not bearing a Tree Element, we can see from the Pillars that not all Elements are from the Tree (so another fair discussion then is what Element Sunset and Starlight represent, and how well they represent it) so it is not unfair to compare the character development between them, one ponyside and one in the EqG universe (that Sunset has also had a little character development ponyside too muddies that a little bit, but only a little bit) without having to claim this makes one character "better" than the other, because it doesn't - they are each their own pony, and their differences outnumber their similarities significantly.  While their "stats" may differ, there is a bigger picture.

Edited May 5, 2018 by CypherHoof

[Will Guide 21,360]

@CypherHoof

Sigh, what you said above is fair enough, your point still left me a bit unsatisfied

I thought you were quoting me to accept my apology when I mistakenly thought you were referring to Sunset still being a blank flank, when really it was Sunset being an artist and going by a nickname. But you didn't even acknowledged my apology. And to me, that makes me sad.

You missed the point as to why I don't like this topic. It's because it looks to me like some of the respondents answered this question Solely to bash a character they don't like. And I hate unfair character bashing. 

It's not you. Your post is perfectly valid. it's just people's attitudes here sometimes make very disappointed.

[Princess Book Horse 352]

Starlight has had a ton of growth lately. Her only real major screw up post-S6 was in “To Change a Changeling.” I also feel like she was a better villain than Sunset and she had a better reformation.

[titanhades 3]

Hate to say it, but they have pretty much written Sunset into a Mary Sue at this point. Starlight is just more relatable.