Debate Pit: Closed for Renovation

[Evil Pink One 13,506]

4 hours ago, SharpWit said:

Forgive me for living under a rock and not exploring the site so much and seeing issues overflow from one section to another.

I haven't participated in as many debates as I used to since they can be quite time consuming and tiresome after a full day's work, but all of my experiences in the latest version of the pit have been extremely civil. Perceptions have been less than positive for those under certain labels, but these always seem to get called out without the vicious back and forth we used to have.

The only issue I've personally witnessed is newcomers who haven't met the criteria to participate in the debate pit yet, and choose to start discussing debate topics in other sections. It's not good when this happens obviously, but the reason we make rules is to help resolve issues and to better handle those that are doing a NoNo.

I remember this being much more prevalent when there was no debate pit at all.

I love moss covered rocks. They're a beautiful part of the garden scape. On the outside all is tranquil, but the closer we look the more we find that can be explored. If we lift the rock, we may find some critters crawling underneath that we're not the most fond of. If we leave the rock be, they'll continue to crawl about, while everyone continues to enjoy the garden. If we remove the rock, those critters will venture out, and they'll pop up in all kinds of unwanted spaces. The debate pit is just such a rock.

  Reveal hidden contents

Edit: I did not open with that figure of speech with the intention of writing about rocks and stuff further on. Please don't percieve me as an undesirable critter! 

 

Le me.... Brakes rock... Muhahahahaha! Fly my pretties!.. no NO NO NOT ME AAAAAHHK!

[Evil Pink One 13,506]

3 hours ago, Princess Silky said:

The first time, it was deleted. At present, it is merely closed. Staff right now has to focus most of their energies on site improvement rather than senseless bickering. I ask that you please be patient. 

The newly improved state of the DP also took ceaseless time and efforts from the staff. And now we're investing that energy on expanding on some stuff that shall require our time and effort. Thanks for your patience and understanding. 

Will i still be banned in the new and improved debate pit is the real question here....

[Evil Pink One 13,506]

2 hours ago, Jeric said:

As someone who spent three full months from April of June of last year doing a systemic Six Sigma DMAIC analysis on how to restore it, it seems a shame.

It might be worth mentioning that each visit to that section to moderate it would take me all of five minutes, and it really wasn’t much of a headache. That’s coming from a left leaning trans woman in a sea of comments that are rather more conservative. People like @Props Valroa and @Luna the Great of all the Russias actually brought a lot of well thought out comments to the forefront that I personally loved reading. I’ll be honest, I felt if I didn’t jump in then shit would just eventually tank, since it would run very well if there was active staff engagement so I guess I’ll take DP closing a final compliment. FWIW, the current debate pit was super tame compared to the heyday of this forum. 
 

Since I’m a major fan of transparency, I want to point out, and as I told @Props Valroa previously in one of the public topics, the old DP topics are not deleted. They are archived and hidden and my plan was to make them visible like we did with the Twilacorn Archive. If it remains closed here it may be a good idea to initiate the process of moving them all together. 
 

Another free solution, if present staff are too busy to manage moderating it, then finding a new staffer willing to take on the challenge should be trivial. That may solve the whole thing and present a win / win to everyone. For some Debate Pit was a primary purpose of visiting. While other homes in other departments could be a better fit, what makes a sub community so unique is not the content but the interactions than can only be replicated if everyone is to move. Otherwise it will always leave a sour taste for some pining for the “good old days”. 
 

TL;DR Closing it or moving it may have some unfortunate implications. I just listed some. I’d stay and discuss further, but I have travel arrangements to make and architecture certification to study for. 
 

Pony On Forum. 

..... I'm willing to take on that challenge @Jeric.... Tartarus was supposed to be my domain.... The opportunity arise and i will take it to further solidify the ownership of tartarus.....

[StarHeart333 1,764]

I think the site could use a hidden debate pit one where members could discuss topics not necessarily related to MLP for healthy discussion and to get to know each other better. You get a better idea of the overall feelings people have about a given topic.

 

Do you support "x" , not support "x", or even a unique opinion about the subject of "x" most may not think of.

 

Keep in mind that unlike in person it is not as easy to read people's intentions through simple typed words.

 

That said the only topic I won't do discussion wise is anything LGBT related because I personally find it a bit difficult to discuss as there are quite a lot of different opinions on it so saying something that may anger someone is far more likely for that subject matter.

 

 

[Yakamaru 3,127]

Good places have good moderation. If the moderation is poor whether it's a Discord server, Telegram group or a forum people are going to feel less incentivized and encouraged to participate, which is going to be one factor for activity and interest. And people may just lose interest as a result of finding other things to do, may not have time to be much active, +++. Activity may just dwindle naturally which is something staff needs to take into consideration as I don't find it a good idea to possibly alienate the people who do show interest in participating. 

When it comes to the idea of a Debate Pit, the concept of challenging and being challenged, you will be treated as everyone else when you choose to enter the arena whether as a member of staff or as a regular member. I lose respect if a member of staff is going to enforce rules arbitrarily whether they are participants in the DB or not. The second iteration(the current one) is far, far better than the previous one that was quite a mess. When the second iteration initially started up the rules were understandable and acceptable albeit somewhat stricter than what I were ordinarily used to(got used to them arguably pretty fast), but over time things just started to go downhill with rules that make no sense and stricter and stricter rules of engagement to the point of it outright being suffocating to people here, activity and indeed interest outright dying as a result. People have no obligation or duty to stay, and I have no intention of being in an environment where I feel like I am suffocating. 

There's been a lot of interesting conversations, topics and takes in the DB and I've had fun interacting with people in there. Though I wouldn't miss it if it were to finally be yeeted into the Sun. It wouldn't take away the bonds I've made nor the friendships I've gained. 

That said, I greatly appreciate the job staff have done to the place over the years, and kept it running as well as it have been. Thank you for the job you have done and are continuing to do. 

[Ice Princess Silky <3 13,606]

3 hours ago, Kujamih said:

..... I'm willing to take on that challenge @Jeric.... Tartarus was supposed to be my domain.... The opportunity arise and i will take it to further solidify the ownership of tartarus.....

Keep this up, buttercup and this'll be you when the debate pit returns, you looking in from outside.

Spoiler

 

 

27 minutes ago, Yakamaru said:

Good places have good moderation. If the moderation is poor whether it's a Discord server, Telegram group or a forum people are going to feel less incentivized and encouraged to participate, which is going to be one factor for activity and interest. And people may just lose interest as a result of finding other things to do, may not have time to be much active, +++. Activity may just dwindle naturally which is something staff needs to take into consideration as I don't find it a good idea to possibly alienate the people who do show interest in participating. 

When it comes to the idea of a Debate Pit, the concept of challenging and being challenged, you will be treated as everyone else when you choose to enter the arena whether as a member of staff or as a regular member. I lose respect if a member of staff is going to enforce rules arbitrarily whether they are participants in the DB or not. The second iteration(the current one) is far, far better than the previous one that was quite a mess. When the second iteration initially started up the rules were understandable and acceptable albeit somewhat stricter than what I were ordinarily used to(got used to them arguably pretty fast), but over time things just started to go downhill with rules that make no sense and stricter and stricter rules of engagement to the point of it outright being suffocating to people here, activity and indeed interest outright dying as a result. People have no obligation or duty to stay, and I have no intention of being in an environment where I feel like I am suffocating. 

There's been a lot of interesting conversations, topics and takes in the DB and I've had fun interacting with people in there. Though I wouldn't miss it if it were to finally be yeeted into the Sun. It wouldn't take away the bonds I've made nor the friendships I've gained. 

That said, I greatly appreciate the job staff have done to the place over the years, and kept it running as well as it have been. Thank you for the job you have done and are continuing to do. 

Very insightful. And very true. I couldn't agree more 

[Evil Pink One 13,506]

@Princess Silky 

But i already am....or was the ban lifted?

[Guest]

Ah that makes sense, I was looking for it earlier and saw it was gone. I thought I posted this earlier XD

Well - whether it comes back permanently or not, it's understandable if the staff don't want it back for potential issues.  However, from what I saw -  the debates were usually civil. I found the various perspectives fascinating as many people here are from different backgrounds and seeing their unique thought processes was great. I don't recall seeing any negativity elsewhere on the forums(or really in general), but I have been busy lately. If there was some negativity like some people have said before, the staff did a great job moderating as I never saw it anywhere else on the forums.

On another note- I will admit that ever since I joined the forums, there wasn't too much talk about ponies recently...however as I have done some research- that made sense as G4 ended and the popularity of the fandom wasn't the same as many years ago (I call it the Golden Age). It's like the "Silver Age" for MLP now, but that doesn't mean that things can't be great. I think with a new administration, new things are going to come that could revamp these forums and the community in general. G5 has kind of rekindled things and has some good potential, but that's something to delve into for another time. Perhaps I'll make a post on Hasbro's business model after I finish this last business course.

Back on topic- as the forums are centered around MLP, it makes sense to keep with that topic. However, it is also very natural for conversations to veer off into multiple avenues as people connect. Sure, you could use DM's, but they aren't that great here. People can go to another site/app after initial conversations, but then you aren't connecting on MLP Forums anymore! I think having a debate pit or so, allows for people to connect here in a different way. Yes, there are some topics that may offend people, but that is something that will always be prevalent in almost anywhere in this era. Perhaps we can be different and bridge a gap in understanding each other's perspectives with that unique platform. Isn't that the point of friendship and for a forum based around that? I would ask what would Twilight Sparkle do in that situation?  That's why I think establishing a new streamlined set of rules can help go a long way. I agree with the sentiment that it should have it's own moderation dedicated to that and possibly a move from the general page, perhaps a separate tab?

Anyway,  I know everyone is working hard to make the forums a better place for all. I understand how busy moderating and such can be. I used to run a very large discord server that had over 10K members. It was where I was a founding member a few years back before I got busy with life, so I can't imagine all the time it takes to get everything together here on multiple fronts. I genuinely appreciate your hard work. The forums have been good to me as I met a lot of new friends that I'm thankful for. Once I finish school in a few weeks, I'm definitely going to try and interact with more of you here and try to go to some IRL events eventually.

*Also @Jeric, I laughed when you mentioned using lean six sigma for this as I never imagined that being mentioned here out of all places. Good luck on your certification and future endeavors!

[Pentium100 2,122]

If moderating the Debate Pit is too difficult, perhaps there could be a "debate lobby". No discussion would be allowed there, other than arranging to debate some topic in some other place. Basically someone creates a topic "Is XYZ good?", people, who want to talk about it sign up and then they figure out where to go - discord, use private messages, 4chan etc.

That way people could still debate, mods would not ned to police the topics so much and it would not make the site look bad on searches.

[Evil Pink One 13,506]

Or we can make it as a game.... Or an event..... Just throwing out some ideas...

[ZiggWheelsManning 10,034]

16 hours ago, Starlightnyars said:

Ah that makes sense, I was looking for it earlier and saw it was gone. I thought I posted this earlier XD

Well - whether it comes back permanently or not, it's understandable if the staff don't want it back for potential issues.  However, from what I saw -  the debates were usually civil. I found the various perspectives fascinating as many people here are from different backgrounds and seeing their unique thought processes was great. I don't recall seeing any negativity elsewhere on the forums(or really in general), but I have been busy lately. If there was some negativity like some people have said before, the staff did a great job moderating as I never saw it anywhere else on the forums.

On another note- I will admit that ever since I joined the forums, there wasn't too much talk about ponies recently...however as I have done some research- that made sense as G4 ended and the popularity of the fandom wasn't the same as many years ago (I call it the Golden Age). It's like the "Silver Age" for MLP now, but that doesn't mean that things can't be great. I think with a new administration, new things are going to come that could revamp these forums and the community in general. G5 has kind of rekindled things and has some good potential, but that's something to delve into for another time. Perhaps I'll make a post on Hasbro's business model after I finish this last business course.

Back on topic- as the forums are centered around MLP, it makes sense to keep with that topic. However, it is also very natural for conversations to veer off into multiple avenues as people connect. Sure, you could use DM's, but they aren't that great here. People can go to another site/app after initial conversations, but then you aren't connecting on MLP Forums anymore! I think having a debate pit or so, allows for people to connect here in a different way. Yes, there are some topics that may offend people, but that is something that will always be prevalent in almost anywhere in this era. Perhaps we can be different and bridge a gap in understanding each other's perspectives with that unique platform. Isn't that the point of friendship and for a forum based around that? I would ask what would Twilight Sparkle do in that situation?  That's why I think establishing a new streamlined set of rules can help go a long way. I agree with the sentiment that it should have it's own moderation dedicated to that and possibly a move from the general page, perhaps a separate tab?

Anyway,  I know everyone is working hard to make the forums a better place for all. I understand how busy moderating and such can be. I used to run a very large discord server that had over 10K members. It was where I was a founding member a few years back before I got busy with life, so I can't imagine all the time it takes to get everything together here on multiple fronts. I genuinely appreciate your hard work. The forums have been good to me as I met a lot of new friends that I'm thankful for. Once I finish school in a few weeks, I'm definitely going to try and interact with more of you here and try to go to some IRL events eventually.

*Also @Jeric, I laughed when you mentioned using lean six sigma for this as I never imagined that being mentioned here out of all places. Good luck on your certification and future endeavors!

Sums up everything perfectly about the issue @Starlightnyars  

[Steve Piranha 29,419]

On 2023-04-23 at 6:26 PM, Star heart 777 said:

 

 

Keep in mind that unlike in person it is not as easy to read people's intentions through simple typed words.

 

 

Yeah, emojis help in that regard in writing, but apparently there was an user who virtually single-handedly used them in such manner, that they were outright banned subsequently 

Spoiler

I wonder who that is 

 

[BornAgainBrony 2,397]

So, wow. I'm amazed to see, from what some folks are saying here, how much trouble there is that not all of us are noticing. Kinda funny so many are saying, "thank goodness it's gone," without realizing this is only temporary. I wasn't going to say anything about it, since I had already made the decision to get myself removed, but since I also care about how this may or may not impact the community, here goes.

On 2023-04-23 at 6:31 AM, Crystal Mirage said:

Riiiight. It ends up balancing out rather quickly as certain types of people find out their shenanigans are met directly, their vitriol returned right back, and aren't able to cause the drama they intend. 

There are many levels of "troll." Some just don't even care if another troll fires back at them. The first era of trolling typically involved taking a political position you don't even have, just for the sake of causing chaos.

On 2023-04-23 at 6:31 AM, Crystal Mirage said:

It is a risk to the community either way. Without a place to debate, people will create topics, status updates or hijack other topics to express themselves. With a place to debate, people will bring up these frustrations, fears, or questions which are inherently challenging/controversial and go all out.

Indeed, it is. The floodgates were failing though. Prior to the previous shutdown of DS, political fights leaking out into other sections of the forum were becoming MORE common.

On 2023-04-23 at 10:34 AM, Props Valroa said:

@Crystal Mirage I don't see why the staff should have to spend the extra effort doing something that isn't the focus of the MLP forum. If you want politics or edgier stuff - you can easily go to other forums. This forum was perfectly fine without it for years.

This is the reason I remember being given for why it was shut down the previous time. The highest percentage of moderation activity was needed for the section that had the smallest population. That doesn't make any logistical sense.

On 2023-04-23 at 10:40 AM, SharpWit said:

I haven't participated in as many debates as I used to since they can be quite time consuming and tiresome after a full day's work, but all of my experiences in the latest version of the pit have been extremely civil. Perceptions have been less than positive for those under certain labels, but these always seem to get called out without the vicious back and forth we used to have.

On 2023-04-23 at 10:46 AM, Luna the Great of all the Russias said:

Personally, to the extent that the Debate Section involved genuine attempts at argumentation rather than an exchange of insults, I find that it had very interesting discussions. And I would say that there is much potential for interesting discussions to be had for those primarily interested in ideas rather than those who pursue lesser ends. Regardless of whether I agree with a particular user's worldview, I appreciate those who have put effort into more strictly adhering to discussion and argumentation.

On 2023-04-23 at 6:49 PM, Yakamaru said:

When it comes to the idea of a Debate Pit, the concept of challenging and being challenged, you will be treated as everyone else when you choose to enter the arena whether as a member of staff or as a regular member. I lose respect if a member of staff is going to enforce rules arbitrarily whether they are participants in the DB or not. The second iteration(the current one) is far, far better than the previous one that was quite a mess. When the second iteration initially started up the rules were understandable and acceptable albeit somewhat stricter than what I were ordinarily used to(got used to them arguably pretty fast), but over time things just started to go downhill with rules that make no sense and stricter and stricter rules of engagement to the point of it outright being suffocating to people here, activity and indeed interest outright dying as a result. People have no obligation or duty to stay, and I have no intention of being in an environment where I feel like I am suffocating.

There was definitely a middle-ground where things were running better. I think it was around the beginning of the year. Some of the threads were looking downright professional, like college/university theses.

Around the time Jeric backed away though, I was seeing the usual vitriol slowly seeping back in.

There's a reason that moderators intervene in real-time during live debates; even the professionals have trouble keeping themselves in-check.

I can easily understand why the rules were reaching the point of being "suffocating" though. The civil conversations were at the one extreme of what goes on in there. The other extreme still exists. It's rather pointless when someone can just copy/paste a Tweet without even first bothering to click one layer deeper into the conversation to discover the context; then someone else writes a lengthy reply to it, and either get shrugged off, if not completely ignored. It's just a waste of time at that point. There are far better places for that kind of "debate." And if anyone really needs to have that kind of rapidfire rage-culture but with a Pony slant, there's always 4chan.

I'll say one other thing about the fact that things were better than the previous incarnation though. Maybe the new policies were working to keep things from degrading back to where they were. But it might also just be timing. The political landscape is definitely not what it was a year or so ago. The old Debate Pit died while the world was knee deep in the COVID lock-downs, and stress & paranoia were at an all-time high. But the chaos was already reaching a crescendo the previous year. Would even the current form of the Debate Pit be able to survive the next U.S. Presidential election? Considering how the playing field is shaping up right now, I very much doubt it.

11 hours ago, Steve Piranha said:

Yeah, emojis help in that regard in writing, but apparently there was an user who virtually single-handedly used them in such manner, that they were outright banned subsequently 

That does not sound at all like contributing a reason to bring back the Debate Pit. If you're saying all of your emoji use is sincere, then you are actually laughing (even if just internally) 99% of the time you read any post that disagrees with you, and then laughing again while replying. That suggests you are actually not interested in debate at all, and are just there 'for the lulz.' If you really need a place where you can get all your chuckles at the expense of anyone you don't agree with, there are far, FAR better options to consider.

[Steve Piranha 29,419]

6 hours ago, BornAgainBrony said:

 

 If you're saying all of your emoji use is sincere, then you are actually laughing (even if just internally) 99% of the time you read any post that disagrees with you, and then laughing again while replying. 

Not nearly as shallow, that was a measure to deal with the constant Ad Hominem I was dealing it constantly, merely for stating opinions some hate, which were most of the time attempts to reach a middle ground, but that’s fascist apparently 

 

whatever the case may be, the current debate pit has evened the playing field for everyone, so that’s a plus 

Edited April 25, 2023 by Steve Piranha

[Jesse Terrence 2,968]

That thing still exists? What's the point if opinions are limited to a narrow controversial postures considered non-harmful but there's a heavy bias for "left" postures and such they have a wide range? Note the quotes, given they don't belong to the actual definition of left, but of course, that's not to be discussed, god forbid we pop a bubble.

Honestly, I lost all interest on the pit after the bias became blatant. Now, as a change for phillosophical topics? First off, most users won't actually know what they try to debate. And second, when we get down to the hardcore phillosophical postures, censorship will crawl back again. There's no point to it. Just close it and move on.

[Evil Pink One 13,506]

 

Thus the laughing with love reaction was born....

So i guess something good came out of this......

Rest in peace laugh RD....

[ChrysalisM 290]

I think it's kind of appropriate that this post became a long free discussion on the various ranging opinions about the debate pit. Personally, I found it interesting. Even discussing with people that I had the full 360 with in ideologies, I also saw those same people making points on other things that I couldn't agree with more. It helped me learn a little more about the folks here outside the usual areas of forum discussion.

[Luna the Great of all the Russias 2,983]

On 2023-04-25 at 12:06 PM, BornAgainBrony said:

That does not sound at all like contributing a reason to bring back the Debate Pit. If you're saying all of your emoji use is sincere, then you are actually laughing (even if just internally) 99% of the time you read any post that disagrees with you, and then laughing again while replying. That suggests you are actually not interested in debate at all, and are just there 'for the lulz.' If you really need a place where you can get all your chuckles at the expense of anyone you don't agree with, there are far, FAR better options to consider.

From my impression, it struck me that many posts that were considered hostile in some way could have easily been rewritten to be strictly argumentative -- it seemed there was often substance, but the presentation improper. Even if I agreed with a particular user's argument or positions more broadly, it is off-putting to me when... to say it one way, are they genuinely trying to argue with the person with whom they are speaking, or are they more acting like entertainers trying to get approval by people they would consider to be on "their side" (or perhaps entertaining themselves)? It is possible to disagree strongly -- very strongly -- with the other without resorting to insults.

Edited April 26, 2023 by Luna the Great of all the Russias

[Steve Piranha 29,419]

33 minutes ago, Luna the Great of all the Russias said:

From my impression, it struck me that many posts that were considered hostile in some way could have easily been rewritten to be strictly argumentative -- it seemed there was often substance, but the presentation improper.
 

 

I‘ve always made sure to always make a point with those posts, even with the amount of emojis. And yes, I was fully aware the lack of presentation that would cause, but alas circumstances forced me to adapt to the game field.

 

38 minutes ago, Luna the Great of all the Russias said:

 It is possible to disagree strongly -- very strongly -- with the other without resorting to insults.

AND constant Ad Hominem, which unfortunately led me to such things. Again, thank goodness the current Debate Pit evened the play field for everyone

[Fluttershutter 2,425]

I've always supported the debate pit though I rarely use it. When people are restricted in what they can discuss it makes things worse, not better.

Conflict happens. It's not the end of the world.

[SharpWit 2,618]

I'm keeping my responses limited as this is not debate pit, but I have read every post and appreciate the input and outstanding example this discussion has set for how all ought to be conducted within that arena.

When the U.S. House of Representatives had a 5 day work week, many opted to live in the capital. This resulted in members frequently running into each other at restaurants, places of worship, sporting g events, even while bringing or picking up their children from school. Housing was so limited in some instances that representatives would have to become roommates, and they hardly had a choice in who they found themselves with. Today we see just how nasty politicians can be to each other, could you imagine what it'd be like having to potentially live with a person who's motions you've spent the entire day arguing against? Well it turns out you learn very quickly how to live with one another. You set differences aside for cooking, eating, keeping the house in order, and so forth. You learn to break bread, and the best part is that this gets brought back into the workplace. When politicians can't escape from each other, they find compromise, and in everyday life form a community. That community had sadly faded with the intensity put towards fundraising and the ability to fly in for only a few days each week.

Why am I sharing this?

 

Because this forum is a community that mirrors all of the aspects of real life. Some think that because there's a screen between us that they can just do whatever amd get away with it, but that's not really the case. Every section, every discussion is like the representatives encounters in the real world, whether it's passing by on the street or bumping into one another at the supermarket. Things can get heated in the debate pit but any responsible user knows that there is a decorum to uphold, no matter what part of this site we participate in. We also know that at the end of it all, we are here because we share a passion for a show that teaches us about love, friendship, and tolerance. It's up to us as individuals to carry on these virtues, and it's why we can climb out of the pit, hand in hand, heads held high and smiles wide. In the pit we test these virtues, explore ideas and broaden our perspectives. We listen and learn from one another in hopes that we all come out better for it.

The purpose of the pit is not to roll in the filth, but to brush off the dirt.