Member-Administered survey about the site?

[XUNUSEDXXX 3,459]

The reasons are explained in every announcement that is made. At least for me, I actually tell people why I am removing a feature in detail. Or that something is introduced.

 

And it is as Kyronea has said: it's more than just explaining all the reasons about features and such. It's about the Skype conversations we have in our chat, what goes in in Starswirl, all of that is part of the moderation experience. Just because people see something on the surface, does not mean they actually know what it's about. I don't think it would be prudent to show people all of those conversations, as some might get offended or go into an outrage as some of the things we speak about might be too sensitive. I'm sure there are some things that are decided and we can't really go into the reason why as it would stir more drama. In fact, I think seeing a lot of what happens behind our doors would do just that.

 

You can't really know about the mods unless you are one. And as I said before, most people's opinions would be biased in some sort of direction, and not really provide any objective value.

 

of course, im not trying to say that we should all be included in such topics that the mods discuss, but i was just thinking about how some people could be left hanging because of a lack of explanation. im not saying that this has ever happened before on this forum since im not exactly and old timer here (it has happened on other forums ive been on) but if this does ever happen, i just dont want something to go left unexplained enough so that the majority is dissatisfied.

[Queen Cassie 3,058]

Kyron, I apologize for this, but why are you being so hostile against this idea? Fizzle was only raising an idea that he, and many other users, think could help improve the site and bring back the amazing community we used to know. I understand that you are strongly against the idea, but insulting him just seemed kind of rude. His observation skills are not in the wrong here, I don't think. It's that you used to be a very influential mod in the eyes of the members here, so your words on the mod staff actually mean something to us.

 

In the end, you are right, it is a dictatorship. But even a dictator of sorts is helped by the people around him. And since this is a forum, the community is what counts. And if we could raise a few ideas up for the staff to just simply listen to, who knows what could happen.

 

Just my two cents on this.

 

Perhaps I was reacting a little bit harshly at first, but I stand by what I've said, if not necessarily the tone. This survey isn't going to be of benefit to anyone because the members simply do not know enough about what goes on with the staff. I can assure you of that from my own experiences as a staff member, and seeing the world again from the eyes of a normal member. There is so much more going on than you realize. The daily Skype chat for the mods alone registers, on average, a thousand messages a day. That's a lot of talk going on back and forth about various staff decisions, different kinds of staff discussions for new features or other things, and all kinds of other stuff. Then there's Star Swirl, which has a huge ton of threads about different issues.

 

Of course, you also have random private one on one discussions between certain mods as well, and I believe the admins have their own Skype chat room. Then, of course, the report system allows all of us mods to comment on each individual report as though it were a thread or status update, so you have all kinds of stuff going on there too. The amount of discussion not seen by the general public is enormous, and without access to those records, it is impossible for the members to properly evaluate the moderators.

 

I brought up the dictatorship angle because I wanted to point out the shaky ground members stand on. I especially feel like this thread, made in public straight away like this, puts the moderating team on the spot. If Feld0 officially shuts down the idea, it could be held up as "yet another sign of moderator bias and hostility" that could be paraded around and cause even more of the ridiculous bitter fighting we've had. If it is instituted, you have a lot of members arguing back and forth about who gets to be on this evaluating team, along with a giant number of popularity contests between different users, where the respect levels do not necessarily correspond to a decent ability to evaluate with a minimum of bias. Not to name any names here, but there are some popular users I feel would be far less suited to evaluating anything than some other popular users might be.

 

Let me also point out that evaluation of real world security forces and police forces, which the moderators are the closest equivalent to(more mall security than police, but just stick with me here) are generally performed by people who have no familiarity with those they're evaluating. And there's a reason for that: it eliminates as much bias as possible. You need to have a lack of bias in order to perform an evaluation that is useful, and as much as I hate to say it, the well known users here are not without bias. Some of you dislike the mods, some of you like them, and so on.

 

I also question the reason for it to begin with. It's okay to chime in on what the mods are doing and how you feel they're handling their jobs, but I don't understand why you think you should be evaluating the staff at all. The staff doesn't work for you. They're not obligated to do anything for you. They're all volunteers, some teens, others in their twenties, etc, all working because they enjoy this forum and want to help it out, and because Feld0 felt they would be useful.

 

Ultimately, my hostility to this idea comes down, again, to the fact that the members just don't have the information they need to properly evaluate anything, and that the members are far too biased to be able to do a good job of it. I just think it's far more likely to create a huge amount of stress, anxiety, and conflict than it is to accomplish anything useful for Feld0 or any other member of the staff. My opinion is not going to change, either.

 

As for my comments to XFizzle, if you feel they were a little over the top, XFizzle, I apologize, but I stand behind the general sentiment expressed, which was that I don't feel you, or any other member, could really competently perform a survey on the staff.

[Strife 455]

Not a bad idea, the main problem being the medium used for such a survey so that it includes the target audience (users) yet retains anonymity.

 

May also be important for the survey to catch the person's join date.

 

Only thing that I disagree with:

- at least Pony rank and above (join date will also be a factor)

 

Post count has nothing to do with a person's ability to properly fill the role.

[Killian Jones 2,655]

Since I want to give a proper response on this from an actual staff member.

 

While the idea in of itself is not stupid. I do feel that such a survey would be incomplete if it were member run. Members often don't have a very good idea of the ongoings of the moderation team, the things we deal with on a daily basis. And what is expected. However, we are also not privy to a large set of the complaints from members as they are often kept between members within private chats. Essentially the whole thing turns into a deathmatch of frustration between us.

 

While we are working on our end on a system to make certain dealings more public, not all moderation can be made public. Some discretion is required and thus moderators may often seem like they aren't doing their job if they do it behind the curtains. I would argue that for regular members it is difficult to know what exactly what moderators do.

 

With all that said, I would say the time may be right for another member's survey like we had in March. Where anonymous statistics were gathered and several complaints dealt with. And they actually were. And I would suggest Fizzle that if he wants to get a say in the questions asked, he is free to make a list of suggested open or multiple choice questions for it. I am pretty sure Feld0 and Swoop would appreciate the input for it. Although I cannot guarantee anything will happen, considering we are doing some moderators and a Feld0 (because of his vacation essentially). It could happen.

 

But just not in the format you would like. Having the admin team weigh in heavily on possible questions asked means we can give poignant questions relevant to us. And not be stuck with feedback which is not very constructive.

 

I hope you understand.

 

Good day.

[~The Snowy Wolf~ 1,579]

I'm sure there are some things that are decided and we can't really go into the reason why as it would stir more drama. In fact, I think seeing a lot of what happens behind our doors would do just that.

 

You can't really know about the mods unless you are one. And as I said before, most people's opinions would be biased in some sort of direction, and not really provide any objective value.

 

I really have to agree with you on that point, since a lot of members already freak out about the things that they see on the surface (i.e. character limit and post count).

 

Post count has nothing to do with a person's ability to properly fill the role.

 

What he meant was that you have to have been here for a while and be an active member on the forum. It wouldn't be sensical to have a bunch of butterflies, bunnies, and squirrels making questions since most of them haven't been on here for long

Edited August 19, 2012 by Vinyl Blade

[Strife 455]

What he meant was that you have to have been here for a while and be an active member on the forum. It wouldn't be sensical to have a bunch of butterflies, bunnies, and squirrels making questions since most of them haven't been on here for long

 

There are quite a few extremely active people that simply lurk more than post. While they know an extensive amount about the forums, they choose to post when they have something to stay instead of posting everywhere.

[~The Snowy Wolf~ 1,579]

There are quite a few extremely active people that simply lurk more than post. While they know an extensive amount about the forums, they choose to post when they have something to stay instead of posting everywhere.

 

By "active member", I meant someone who actively contributes to the forums

[Twilight Sparkle ✨ 8,529]

First of all, I must give a small foreword:

 

This "us vs. them" attitude needs to go. It's not going to do anyone any favours if you hold the belief that you must back the MLP Forums staff into an inescapable corner to get them to listen to you. I feel offended that some members seem to honestly believe that the staff think themselves to be flawless and "above the people," so to speak. Staff are people. With the exception of myself, every single member of my team once joined this site because they wanted to be part of a forum where they could interact with fellow MLP:FiM fans - just like you.

 

I fully acknowledge that no one - not even I - is immune to mistakes. So I kindly ask that you never forget that the staff are, at the end of the day, human beings who want the best for this site just as much as you do.

 

---

Now, here are my thoughts on XFizzle's suggestion for a member-run anonymous survey about the moderating team:

 

The idea of a survey about the moderating team is one that we first threw around among the admins in March, back around the time we ran the anonymous community survey. It is the administration's responsibility to keep tabs on the moderating team; but I see value in getting non-staff users' opinions on the moderating staff as well. After all, if members think a specific moderator is doing a crappy job, there's probably a problem there that warrants administrative investigation.

 

I'm not at all opposed to letting a survey to this effect take place, but due to reasons already mentioned by others before me, it absolutely must be administered by MLPF's administration team. Neither the non-staff members nor the moderators are in the position to run a fair survey about the moderators, and this is something that only the site's highest authorities can and should handle.

 

HOWEVER, if it happens, I would be more than happy to accept unsolicited suggestions for specific questions to ask in the survey. Please keep in mind, however, that the administration reserves the right to modify or reject any suggested questions.

 

After sufficient results have been collected and the survey is closed, the administrators - and no one else - will read through and aggregate the responses. We will put anywhere from one to many reports together to publish the findings and offer an opportunity for everyone to see what people had to say in the survey, and what the administration thinks about each point of feedback. We will reserve the right to control exactly what we do and do not publish - due to the sensitive nature of some comments and/or questions, it would not be prudent to release everything. However, whether a point of feedback makes it into the public reports or not, I can guarantee that each and every single word the survey collects will be read by the administrators.

 

This is exactly how the March survey worked, and anyone who was around for it can attest to how well it went. Some really good suggestions came out of it that were, in fact, acted on. The reports we published were thorough, extensive, graphical, and personal. And everyone was happy to get the opportunity to speak their mind without attaching their identity to their feedback.

 

Finally, before anyone makes any claims that a survey about the moderators managed by the administrators would be biased for X reason, I must make it crystal-clear that the administrators are a separate unit from the moderators. Yes, the administrators do take part in moderation, but there's a clear difference in authority and responsibility between them:

• Administrators:
  • set the standards of conduct and quality for the community
  • write out rules that encourage members to meet those standards
  • hire moderators that they trust to enforce the rules and uphold the community standards
  • crack down on and discipline moderators who aren't doing their job correctly - if need be, firing them
• Moderators:
  • enforce the rules written by the administrators
  • set an example of community standards for other members to follow
  • are eligible for unlimited discipline by the administration if they fail to fulfill their responsibilities, or do so incorrectly

Administrators write the rules; so if you see them moderating anything, they moderate by the standards they created themselves. Please don't mistake the position of an administrator for that of a moderator because of this.

 

The administrators manage the moderators, and are the only people on the site who are able to do anything about bad apples in the moderating team. So it's only right that if a survey is conducted with the idea of gathering constructive feedback on their moderating team, it be managed and aggregated by the moderators' superiors.

 

---

Now, Q&A time:

 

Isn't Feld0 manager of alot of other forums too? they might deny it or so because it might be useless since they might not have the time to read hundreds of responses. not sure about feld0's schedule, i could be completely wrong, but its just a thought.

 

For the record, feedback is something I take extremely seriously. I personally read every single post in the feedback and Canterlot Castle sections and every private communication sent to me. Just because I do not respond does not mean I don't care.

 

Consider this: would you rather I spent my time responding personally to every single suggestion people make, or spend my time planning out new features and developing far-reaching sister projects like Pony.fm?

 

If a community-wide survey of some kind were to take place, I would very much be interested in reading each and every single response to it (I went through hundreds of responses when we ran the March survey, and I did not see it to be a waste of my time).

 

nobody said that feld0 or any of the mods have to listen to this information at all. this was meant just to give the mods an idea of what we like and dont like about this site. feld0 could completely reject this and we all move on, and he could also like the idea of making more members happy by removing/adding things to the site that we like/dont like. im pretty sure feld0 didnt make this site to only make himself happy. isnt that why the "Feedback and Suggestions" section is here? this could be an additional, more in depth feedback from the members.

 

Also for the record, no the point of this site was not solely to make myself happy. I'm here to run a community site for the brony fandom. However, if things ever get to the point where I don't feel MLP Forums is worth my time anymore, I will leave just like any other forum member does.

 

The thing is, if I leave, the site disappears. So, all I ask is that you respect the fact that I have the right to choose what I do in my spare time, and enjoy it, just like you do. I'm a full-time high school student who is trying to get a six-figure fortune together for next year so I can get an education, and there are a lot of things I could be doing besides running a pony forum.

 

As I said, I listen to and consider every single piece of feedback I get - I even go out of my way to search for off-site feedback that people, for whatever reason, do not wish to state on MLP Forums itself. But if a suggestion contravenes my personal vision for the site, I'm afraid to say that expecting anything less than a veto is unreasonable.

 

That's the hard truth. As much as I hate to say it, it is kind of important for the community that I enjoy it here.

 

 

 

EVERYTHING I POST IN THIS THREAD IS NOT INTENDED FOR ASSAULT OR DISRESPECT

 

anyway. since you said that we dont know what the thought process is behind these decisions you make, is it top secret info or is it something that could be shared? im pretty content with the site right now but if there is anything i find that i dont like, are there things that have been decided and we cant know the reason why? because i think alot of people would be more satisfied if they knew the reason for the features/disabled features of the site that they dislike (and im talking for all forums in general, not this one). and if the members know the reason for the thing they dislike and still choose to reject it, that is their own personal issue they will have to work out themselves.

 

Whenever we make a major change to the site that impacts many members, it is our policy to announce it in Canterlot Castle. The announcement topics there always explain everything about a decision that we can publicize. When members have questions, we answer them.

 

If you find yourself questioning a change but have not read the relevant Canterlot Castle topic, you don't even know the part of the story that we do publish. Not all things are what they seem.

 

And if you believe the staff here are bigoted enough to reject anything they don't like, I very kindly ask that you take a look at this post and read every single word of it.

 

I also question the reason for it to begin with. It's okay to chime in on what the mods are doing and how you feel they're handling their jobs, but I don't understand why you think you should be evaluating the staff at all. The staff doesn't work for you. They're not obligated to do anything for you. They're all volunteers, some teens, others in their twenties, etc, all working because they enjoy this forum and want to help it out, and because Feld0 felt they would be useful.

 

While some of Kyronea's writing in this topic has been on the hostile side (and moderated appropriately http://mlpforums.com/public/style_emoticons/default/dry.png), this particular paragraph rings true. Please refer back to my foreword and my second answer in this post.

[Strife 455]

By "active member", I meant someone who actively contributes to the forums

 

You mistake "post everywhere, regardless if it's relevant" with "post carefully, so it's always relevant."

 

Some people rather contribute only decent posts to topics where they believe they have something reasonable to add, instead of posting all over the place and often having spammy posts.

[XUNUSEDXXX 3,459]

 

 

Thank you for the explanations. Though you mentioned in your post that we have an us vs. them attitude towards the mods. I meant no disrespect towards the mods (and actually have liked all the ones I have talked to, I have yet to encounter a admin or mod I dislike), so if that was the attitude that came across my post, I apologize, as all of my posts were merely for the sole purpose of explaining why I recommend having a survey distributed (while getting a bit off topic). As I said before, I'm pretty content with the site and staff in their current state, however, I was posting for the sake of others, not myself.

Edited August 19, 2012 by Scootabloom

[FedoraMemes 582]

Yes, I agree. Even though I am not eligible to partake (I am only a Phoenix and joined about 18th February I think) I would highly recommend that this is taken into consideration, as it would give some great feedback to the admins, which could help improve this site.

[Marshmallow 1,137]

It sounds like a great idea. I suck at making questions though, but I'd like to answer them haha!

 

The whole thing has to be completely anonymous though, otherwise there'd be little purpose in doing that. The mods may or may not take into consideration the results of the poll, but I think that it could be a great tool to point out some of the aspects of the forums that aren't so good or need improvement and thus making the forums a better place.