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Is anypony a vegetarian?


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#21 A Doge

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Posted 25 April 2012 - 11:49 AM

I love veggies and fruit, but I love meat!


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#22 Strafe

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Posted 25 April 2012 - 12:43 PM

Then why stop eating meat? Moral vegetarians raise a hue and cry about animals being killed to be eaten and boycott meat as a result, yet at the same time, they don't say a word about the blood that stains many of their consumer goods. Many goods are made in the so-called Third World in appalling conditions, and even components that are assembled in the so-called First World are made from raw materials that were mined in the so-called Third World. Why aren't these consumer goods boycotted due to the suffering of Chinese and Congolese miners, sweatshop workers, assembly lines in the Third World, etc. by the vegetarians? Does this not smack of inconsistency? Does this not seem misanthropic, as the impression is given of the lesser animals being more important than human beings?

Those mistreated workers are of our species and should be given priority over some cows and chickens that are slaughtered to keep people fed.

Ironically, if moral vegetarians had their way, people would lose incentive to breed some domesticated animals, and given that they are a product of artificial selection, I do not think they would fare well on their own in the wild. Some of them may survive and undergo a bit of reversion, but many of them would perish. :P

I also find moral vegetarianism to be hypocritical, given that such vegetarians typically don't blink an eye when it comes to utilizing healthcare, and medical science is largely predicated in "animal cruelty," i.e. animal testing. To be logically consistent, they would have to refuse to use modern medicine, clinics, hospitals, etc.


I didn't mean it by a moral aspect. What I meant was that meat is bad for you, meat is a good source of protein but it exists in other foods that aren't meat like almonds and such.

#23 Cameraman Jeff

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Posted 25 April 2012 - 02:02 PM

No. Steak is the pinnacle of food.

#24 The Tainted One

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Posted 25 April 2012 - 02:09 PM

I love bacon too much to be a Vegetarian. :I

#25 Raptor_a22

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Posted 25 April 2012 - 03:59 PM

---snipped large quote about inconsistency---


Pretty much the reason I don't support PETA

---snipped quote. The part I'm responding to is about cows eating corn---


Why the cows eat corn in the first place is because of the massive benefts from the government US farmers recieved WAY BACK WHEN that now means TOO MUCH CORN is being grown instead of things like wheat.
The result? Everything in American food is pumped FULL of high fructose corn syrup.
America has too much corn.

Here in the Country Down Under, we feed our meat and dairy cows grass. The cows destined for expensive restraunts (e.g. The Stag here in Adelaide) are fed wheat for one to two weeks, to create the fat marbling that makes them so delicious. (and expensive)
However, there is a serious difference between the marbling of American steak and Australian steak. Australian steak has 5... 10% fat tops, but I've had an American steak and I swear the entire thing tasted like it was made of fat.
No wonder Americans are so obese.

If I lived in the US I would be a vegetarian, but only for health reasons. As such, our meat industry is much healthier, both for the environment and for the livestock. Farmers learnt quckly that if you dont give the Austrlian environment the respect it deserves, it will come back and kick your backside later.
The stuff you learn in a country where 90% of the animals are deadly, and the landscape does the rest.

#26 Whiteshade

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Posted 25 April 2012 - 04:06 PM

Meat accounts for about 40-100% of my food consumption everyday, so I don't believe I'm vegetarian I'm well aware of the environmental damage and the shit animals go through, but to put it cynically, that's never stopped me before. I would still eat meat just as I still eat chocolate even given its source.

#27 hoofian

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Posted 25 April 2012 - 06:01 PM

Did you know the industry that manufactures dietary supplements for vegetarians is four times as damaging to the environment than the entire meat industry? (poultry, red meat, fisheries etc.)

I'd never make a good vegetarian, as I'm allergic to Soy and products made from Soy Milk (That includes Tofu)

And now, some vegetarian jokes:

Spoiler


Also, if anyone is feeling lethargic, depressed, and generally not having the energy to do things, it may be because of an iron deficiency in your bloodstream. Iron helps red blood cells carry oxygen around the body.
Has anyone cut their lip, and/or tasted blood before? Thats why it tastes like iron!

And where do humans get the majority of their Iron intake? RED MEAT!


What supplements are you talking about? Do you have a source? I have a difficult time believing that, knowing from observation how devastating factory farms are to the environment. Also, are you talking about the farms here in the US, or the farms you have in Australia, as they are completely different (which you mentioned as well). I still find it nearly impossible to believe, but it would make more sense if you are talking about a more sustainable type of farm.

As far as the iron thing goes, liver is the best meat-related source of iron. Essentially, the part most people throw away. There are plenty of vegetarian ways to get iron though, like Flaxseed, Edemame (soy, not good for you though I suppose), canned beans, and cooked spinach among others (see http://www.fitsugar....3751173?slide=0 ). As I mentioned earlier another good source is by cooking with cast-iron cookware, as it leaches iron into the food being cooked (don't use it for highly acidic foods like tomatoes though, as it can do a lot of damage to the cookware). Just because most people get iron through red meat doesn't make it the best or only way. Remember, if a nutrient is in an animal, the animal got it from plants. You are what you eat, everything in meat can be found in plants. :)

Sorry about the soy allergy. I went a long time without ever touching soy, though. I only found out I like tofu in the past 3 months. My primary source of protein comes from beans and other legumes, like peanuts.



Why the cows eat corn in the first place is because of the massive benefts from the government US farmers recieved WAY BACK WHEN that now means TOO MUCH CORN is being grown instead of things like wheat.
The result? Everything in American food is pumped FULL of high fructose corn syrup.
America has too much corn.

Here in the Country Down Under, we feed our meat and dairy cows grass. The cows destined for expensive restraunts (e.g. The Stag here in Adelaide) are fed wheat for one to two weeks, to create the fat marbling that makes them so delicious. (and expensive)
However, there is a serious difference between the marbling of American steak and Australian steak. Australian steak has 5... 10% fat tops, but I've had an American steak and I swear the entire thing tasted like it was made of fat.
No wonder Americans are so obese.

If I lived in the US I would be a vegetarian, but only for health reasons. As such, our meat industry is much healthier, both for the environment and for the livestock. Farmers learnt quckly that if you dont give the Austrlian environment the respect it deserves, it will come back and kick your backside later.
The stuff you learn in a country where 90% of the animals are deadly, and the landscape does the rest.


You are absolutely right. Thanks to the Nixon administration, and every subsequent one for not changing it, we have an overproduction of corn that finds its way into everything we eat and use (there is even corn in aluminum and tires). I mentioned this in a previous post in this thread. Eating grass fed cattle is much more responsible and better for the person and the cow. I still would not eat meat for various other reasons, but I have less issues with people doing it in a more responsible way, as you mentioned. Also, from previous experience as an almost-carnivore, as a professional cook and culinary arts student, grass fed beef tastes a lot better. As in... it has taste. I still find it gross now, but at the time, I remember it being much much better. And healthier.

#28 Lady Rarity Pony

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Posted 25 April 2012 - 06:09 PM

Never tried being a vegetarian, though I recently stopped eating pork. I adopted that one Jewish law, I'll see if I actually can stick to it. :P

Edited by Lady Sludge Pony, 25 April 2012 - 06:11 PM.


#29 Raptor_a22

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Posted 25 April 2012 - 06:16 PM

As far as the iron thing goes, liver is the best meat-related source of iron. Essentially, the part most people throw away. There are plenty of vegetarian ways to get iron though, like Flaxseed, Edemame (soy, not good for you though I suppose), canned beans, and cooked spinach among others (see http://www.fitsugar....3751173?slide=0 ). As I mentioned earlier another good source is by cooking with cast-iron cookware, as it leaches iron into the food being cooked (don't use it for highly acidic foods like tomatoes though, as it can do a lot of damage to the cookware). Just because most people get iron through red meat doesn't make it the best or only way. Remember, if a nutrient is in an animal, the animal got it from plants. You are whatyou eat, everything in meat can be found in plants. :)


It's true that the liver is the best source of meat related iron, but eaating liver is actually dangerous.

Sir Douglas Mawson, an Australian geologist and Antarctec Explorer, let two other men on an expedition. Xavier Mertz died from Vitamin A poisoning combined with physical exertion and malnutrition. Why? They wre forced to eat their sled dogs to survive. Liver is rich in Vitamin A, and too much of that stuff is toxic.

EDIT:

I challenge you to find long protein strings in plants. (I did Chemistry in final year)

Edited by Raptor_a22, 25 April 2012 - 06:18 PM.


#30 hoofian

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Posted 25 April 2012 - 06:32 PM

Ironically, if moral vegetarians had their way, people would lose incentive to breed some domesticated animals, and given that they are a product of artificial selection, I do not think they would fare well on their own in the wild. Some of them may survive and undergo a bit of reversion, but many of them would perish. :P

I also find moral vegetarianism to be hypocritical, given that such vegetarians typically don't blink an eye when it comes to utilizing healthcare, and medical science is largely predicated in "animal cruelty," i.e. animal testing. To be logically consistent, they would have to refuse to use modern medicine, clinics, hospitals, etc.


My apologies, I didn't cover these two in my last response to you and I just realized this. The part about the animals seems to have been added when making my reply, and I just forgot about the medical advancements part.

You are right, those animals wouldn't be able to survive. If left alone natural selection would have taken care of this and most of them wouldn't exist. As it is, there are a few options to take care of this problem: Sterilization, to prevent them from breeding and the last generation of these animals can live their life, and die. Alternately, as people consume less and less meat, as is the current trend, we will produce fewer and fewer animals of this sort. Since most of these are bread through artificial means anyway, there is no risk. Last, these breeds will likely not die out completely, as many people would still have an interest in dairy, and show animals.

Offering those 3 solutions to the problem, lets look at your issue. We apparently would let these animals go (which no one I have known of would advocate, as it would be pointless and dumb. Even PETA as radical as they are have no qualms with having animal companions) and they die of natural causes, either illness or predators. That fate is no worse than what they have now. Once again, I don't follow your logic.

Like most people, I enjoy many of the modern advancements of modern medicine. Thankfully, being relatively young and healthy, I don't have as much of a need for it as most people. However; to say I should not enjoy these advancements because they use animals is once again ignoring your human rights argument. What about all the poor people exploited to test drugs? Many of them develop problems and are used similarly to lab rats and monkeys but you, I assume, also use modern medicine, right? Anyone can sign up to test medicines but it is usually poor people, needing money. And what about medical and other advancements found through unethical means? Believe it or not, there were advancements found through the Holocaust which saved lives. One of which was the discovery that a life vest that keeps your neck out of the water causes you to freeze less slowly than the older styles of life-vests. This was found by sticking Jews into freezing water at various depths and seeing how long it took them to die. A horrendous, terrible, awful experiment by a hate-filled regime! However; I'm not going to refuse a life vest if I am in a sinking ship in the middle of the Atlantic, and I bet you aren't either (source: http://www.jewishvir...sm/naziexp.html )

It's true that the liver is the best source of meat related iron, but eaating liver is actually dangerous.

Sir Douglas Mawson, an Australian geologist and Antarctec Explorer, let two other men on an expedition. Xavier Mertz died from Vitamin A poisoning combined with physical exertion and malnutrition. Why? They wre forced to eat their sled dogs to survive. Liver is rich in Vitamin A, and too much of that stuff is toxic.

EDIT:

I challenge you to find long protein strings in plants. (I did Chemistry in final year)

I forgot about the Vitamin A. I wasn't advocating eating a liver rich diet anyway, but you bring up a good point. :) I am not a chemist, so please forgive my ignorance. When you say long protein strand, you are talking about a complete protein, right? If that is the case, why would I have to? As a lacto-ovo vegetarian I can get this from eggs, but, even if I were/when I was a vegan, there is no reason to. Because of our digestive systems, we are capable of making these from various amino acids, just like our herbivore brethren (and sister-en). :)

#31 Raptor_a22

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Posted 25 April 2012 - 06:37 PM

Offering those 3 solutions to the problem, lets look at your issue. We apparently would let these animals go (which no one I have known of would advocate, as it would be pointless and dumb. Even PETA as radical as they are have no qualms with having animal companions) and they die of natural causes, either illness or predators. That fate is no worse than what they have now. Once again, I don't follow your logic.


AHEM

I just saw this and had to add in a quick reply

PETA certainly DOES have a problem with domestic pet breeds. They are of the opinion that they shouldn't exist. In one year, PETA killed 90% of animals left in their care. NINETY PERCENT! Thats higher than your average pound!

PETA dosen't want to set them free, they don't want to help find owners, they want them off the face of the earth.

PETA isn't just against animal ABUSE, they're against animal USE.

Edited by Raptor_a22, 25 April 2012 - 06:37 PM.


#32 hoofian

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Posted 25 April 2012 - 07:12 PM

AHEM

I just saw this and had to add in a quick reply

PETA certainly DOES have a problem with domestic pet breeds. They are of the opinion that they shouldn't exist. In one year, PETA killed 90% of animals left in their care. NINETY PERCENT! Thats higher than your average pound!

PETA dosen't want to set them free, they don't want to help find owners, they want them off the face of the earth.

PETA isn't just against animal ABUSE, they're against animal USE.


I have heard this before, about PETA killing animals, and it is complete bullshit. If you actually look up PETA's opinion on the matter, they state that while animals would be better off if never domesticated at all, the harm is done and they enjoy animal companions (source: http://www.peta.org/...-peta/pets.aspx ). They discuss the issue of overpopulation of pets which is a serious problem! But no where do they advocate killing animals. I don't get behind everything PETA does, particularly some of their stuff that is rather demeaning towards women (no more so than the average magazine advertisement, but it doesn't make it right anyway). I am not saying PETA does no wrong, but that rumor is bullocks.

Once again, do you have a reliable source for the information you posted? You seem to be a well educated person, why do you not cite sources when making such important radical claims?

#33 Tyger

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Posted 25 April 2012 - 07:24 PM

The standard diet of a meat-eater is blood, flesh, veins, muscles, tendons, cow secretions,hen periods and bee vomit. And once a year during a certain holiday in November, meat-eaters use the hollowed-out rectum of a dead bird as a pressure cooker for stuffing.....

And people think vegans are weird because we eat tofu?

#34 hoofian

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Posted 25 April 2012 - 07:31 PM

The standard diet of a meat-eater is blood, flesh, veins, muscles, tendons, cow secretions,hen periods and bee vomit. And once a year during a certain holiday in November, meat-eaters use the hollowed-out rectum of a dead bird as a pressure cooker for stuffing.....

And people think vegans are weird because we eat tofu?


That is amazing! I like that a lot! I was vegan for 4 months, and have not written off the idea of returning to the diet, it is just slightly more difficult to maintain than is a lacto-ovo diet. Not so much eating at home, but it is difficult to find truly vegan options while eating out or at other people's houses.

Edited by hoofian, 25 April 2012 - 07:32 PM.


#35 Victoria and Co.

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Posted 25 April 2012 - 08:18 PM

I enjoy non-meat products IMMENSELY, in my book you can't get much better than a nice salad, but I do eat my fair share of meat. Doing so is flawed in many ways, and as such I have considered going vegetarian, but have yet to fully act. I mean, look at energy pyramids people! Being at the top is usually just as bad as it is good. Anyway, I support the choices of those who don't eat meat, keep on using those molars guys! :P

#36 hoofian

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Posted 25 April 2012 - 08:22 PM

I enjoy non-meat products IMMENSELY, in my book you can't get much better than a nice salad, but I do eat my fair share of meat. Doing so is flawed in many ways, and as such I have considered going vegetarian, but have yet to fully act.

I mean, look at energy pyramids people! Being at the top is usually just as bad as it is good.

Anyway, I support the choices of those who don't eat meat, keep on using those molars guys! :P

Thanks for the input! [brohoof] :)

#37 M14Brony

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Posted 25 April 2012 - 10:25 PM

First of all you are generalizing, and probably not on anyone you actually know. I as well as almost all the vegetarians I know care as much or more about human rights, as well. You logic, is fallacy. It makes no sense.


Let us tear this contention to shreds:

You are also ignoring the problems in first world countries. Vegetarianism is a human rights issue. One of the most dangerous jobs currently, is working in a slaughterhouse. Since the unions were weakened, almost none of them have unions anymore, and hire illegal immigrants to work under minimum wage. These workers are discouraged from reporting accidents, and quite often suffer crippling injuries as a result. These overworked underpaid exploited people are also people getting screwed by the meat industry, just like the animals (See http://motherjones.c...-eric-schlosser )


The solution to these conditions in the slaughterhouse needs to be brought about by a rebirth of the labor movement. The unions need to break with the reactionary liberal leaders that are bought off by and in bed with the bosses. Since illegal immigrants play a pivotal role in the economy, they should be given unconditional amnesty, as this would prevent such people from being subject to such exploitation. The solution will not come from a boycott dictated by the agenda of a logically inconsistent lifestyle.

If anything, this is most likely an opportunist jesture on your behalf, given that I give priority to our own species. Nevertheless, this opportunism of yours is utterly self-defeating, as it only serves to emphasize the hypocrisy and logical inconsistency of your viewpoints. Since moral vegetarians raise the tactic of the boycott to a principle, surely you would have to boycott so many of your precious consumer goods in order to be logically consistent, and your refusal to do as such in itself shows that you care more about the lesser animals than those of your own species. This is ultimately misanthropic.

Next, let's talk about the exploited farmers. Are you aware that companies like Purdue get farmers to raise chickens, by loaning them money for chicken houses. Sounds good, until you realize that a farmer goes into debt half a million USD for 2 chicken houses, which will raise them less than $20,000 USD for profit. Sure sounds like a human rights issue to me! (source: The film Food Inc., not a pro vegetarian movie, just a pro-knowing-your-food-movie).


I am aware of this, but again, the solution to this lies witih the labor movement, which needs to be revived. Those agribusiness giants should be natioinalized under democratic workers' control and predatory lending practices to smaller farmers should be abolished. See above regarding the moral vegetarian boycott principle and logical inconsistency.

Last, let's talk about the environment (a human rights issue, since we live here. I want clean air and potable water avaliable for my infant nephew). Ever seen a factory farm? They are all around me. They are horrible. The conditions for the animals are bad, and they produce so much greenhouse gasses (from the cows, the trucks that haul cattle, the trucks that haul grain all hours of the night), they produce a lot of run-off in the creeks and rivers which is bad for fish and the people who drink that water.


Yet you maintain dead silence over the pollution caused by factories, extraction of aluminum from bauxite (the "red mud" that is produced from extracting aluminum from this ore is rather toxic), the pollution caused by cars, trucks, buses, etc. Should you not boycott automobiles, public transit, manufactured goods, etc. to remian logically consistent? Once again, we have an opportunist jesture that has backfired and served to more openly expose the logical inconsistency of moral vegetarianism.

Cows are also not meant to eat corn. That is another problem with factory farming. Wonder why we have so many issues with E. Coli? The stomach acid of cows are messed up from the corn they eat, since they are supposed to eat grass (corn is mass produced for other horrible reasons, but is really cheap and allows farmers to cram cows into small places without grass, which means more money). The result is e. coli grows in their stomachs, spreading to people, and the runoff of manure even gets in our produce which is why we have spinach and other veggies that gets contaminated with e. coli. Cows that eat grass, like they are supposed to, don't support the virus. (source: films King Corn and Food Inc., as well as basic biology).


I believe that Raptor_a22 covered this pretty well.

Meat is very much a human rights issue. You are right, buying third world garbage is not good either, and most people (no matter their diet) don't pay attention to it. But to deny that meat is a human rights issue, is just ignorant of the facts.


The problem is the capitalist mode of production, not meat itself. Everything I use is covered in blood in one way or another, but at the same time, one cannot simply abstain from such things. Society must evolve and put and end to the exploitation of one person by another.

My apologies, I didn't cover these two in my last response to you and I just realized this. The part about the animals seems to have been added when making my reply, and I just forgot about the medical advancements part.

You are right, those animals wouldn't be able to survive. If left alone natural selection would have taken care of this and most of them wouldn't exist. As it is, there are a few options to take care of this problem: Sterilization, to prevent them from breeding and the last generation of these animals can live their life, and die. Alternately, as people consume less and less meat, as is the current trend, we will produce fewer and fewer animals of this sort. Since most of these are bread through artificial means anyway, there is no risk. Last, these breeds will likely not die out completely, as many people would still have an interest in dairy, and show animals.


And the delicious irony is brought forth for all to see, as if PETA had their way, a lot of the animals they claim to be fighting for would be dead, or at best, significantly reduced in population. :P

I also believe that the demand for meat is increasing, not decreasing, particulalry as sections of society in the so-called developing world become more affluent. Factory farming will not be abolished by a tiny handful of vegetarians and vegans - it will be replaced by a more efficient method of meat production brought about by a scientific breakthrough (growing meat in laboratories).

Offering those 3 solutions to the problem, lets look at your issue. We apparently would let these animals go (which no one I have known of would advocate, as it would be pointless and dumb. Even PETA as radical as they are have no qualms with having animal companions) and they die of natural causes, either illness or predators. That fate is no worse than what they have now. Once again, I don't follow your logic.


It is rather difficult for moral vegetarians to say they stand for such animals when their ways would ultimately do wonders to drive them to extinciton at worst and significantly reduce their numbers at best.

Like most people, I enjoy many of the modern advancements of modern medicine. Thankfully, being relatively young and healthy, I don't have as much of a need for it as most people. However; to say I should not enjoy these advancements because they use animals is once again ignoring your human rights argument. What about all the poor people exploited to test drugs? Many of them develop problems and are used similarly to lab rats and monkeys but you, I assume, also use modern medicine, right? Anyone can sign up to test medicines but it is usually poor people, needing money. And what about medical and other advancements found through unethical means? Believe it or not, there were advancements found through the Holocaust which saved lives. One of which was the discovery that a life vest that keeps your neck out of the water causes you to freeze less slowly than the older styles of life-vests. This was found by sticking Jews into freezing water at various depths and seeing how long it took them to die. A horrendous, terrible, awful experiment by a hate-filled regime! However; I'm not going to refuse a life vest if I am in a sinking ship in the middle of the Atlantic, and I bet you aren't either (source: http://www.jewishvir...sm/naziexp.html )


Unlike moral vegetarians, I do not raise the tactic of the boycott to a principle. I am well aware that many advancements and consumer goods are dripping in blood, but abstaining from them will solve nothing. It is hypocritical for moral vegetarians to boycott meat due to "animal cruelty" on the one hoof while utilizing modern medicine on the other hoof, given that it is also largely predicated on "animal cruelty." Hell, PETA's Ingrid Newkirk is a massive hypocrite that owes her survival to dog-tested insulin.

And when it comes to the Nazi regime, PETA is anti-semitic, given that they trivialized the Holocaust when they made a billboard that compared raising and slaughtering chickens to what the Jews dealt with in Hitler's death camps. ;)

I didn't mean it by a moral aspect. What I meant was that meat is bad for you, meat is a good source of protein but it exists in other foods that aren't meat like almonds and such.


I see. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

As an omnivore, I am not going to abstain from one or the other. Copious quantities of red meat are harmful, but I believe that a temple at Delphi had applicable statements here:

"Know thyself."
"Nothing in excess."

Edited by M14Brony, 25 April 2012 - 10:30 PM.


#38 roomforapony

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Posted 26 April 2012 - 01:36 AM

Once again, do you have a reliable source for the information you posted? You seem to be a well educated person, why do you not cite sources when making such important radical claims?

I'm not the same person, but here are some sources on PETA's practices in killing animals.
http://www.thedailyb...euthanasia.html
http://www.petakillsanimals.com/proof/
http://www.nathanwinograd.com/?cat=10
http://www.petconnec...y-says-newkirk/

#39 Raptor_a22

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Posted 26 April 2012 - 01:54 AM

Once again, do you have a reliable source for the information you posted? You seem to be a well educated person, why do you not cite sources when making such important radical claims?


http://www.escapistm.../4988-Skin-Game
I'm quite happy to point towards MovieBob on this one. The man knows his stuff, and knows how to argue and reason well.
This is where I learnt about it, as I watch his show closely.

M14Brony also has pointed out that PETAs secretary uses pig-sourced insulin for her survival, even though PETA forbids its use.
roomforapony has some sources there, but the main one I'm quoting is MovieBob, who has sources in his video.

As for the dietary supplements, I'll get in touch with the person who told me, as he'll definitely have a source.

#40 ELRealBoredmario64

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Posted 26 April 2012 - 02:08 AM

i eat purely meat.






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