Is MLP:FiM misandric?

[HorsesandMOARGaloar 300]

http://existentialcrisisfactory.tumblr.com/post/38833928214/my-little-pony-misandry-is-magic

 

(This article in this website is actually reposted, as the original user is out.)

 

Would you like to provide counter-arguments to all of this?

[Celli 4,349]

Just some guy over-thinking things. I would ignore it and move on.

[Malinter 3,064]

Nope. MLP is the opposite of RL societies where everything till recently was promoting Men better than  women at everything apart from birthing children and cooking. XD

 

Females have a bigger presence in Equestria, that is just how it is. Lauren Faust wanted the show to have strong female leads and that's exactly what it has.

 

If someone wants a dude only FiM then they're free to make one

Edited July 19, 2014 by Shire Pony Malinter

[Pastel 7,630]

Just some guy over-thinking things. I would ignore it and move on.

Most of his arguments are relevant though.

 

But I disagree with him, I don't think MLP:FiM is misandric: it's not the purpose of the show, it's just a show originally for girls, it wasn't meant to be misandric.

Edited July 19, 2014 by Blobulle

[yeet 2,027]

Considering lauren Faust made season one, and some episodes in season two, but nothing in season three of four. I think this is a bit bollocks. Maybe the first season could have been intended to be misandric. But after lauren went, how can they change all the characters? And also with discord, lauren did those two episodes in the second season. I think lauren may have intended to make the show misandric of whatever. But hasbro are trying to make it not so much. But its a bit hard when they've already made the world and virtually all of its inhabitants.

 

As you can see they are starting to have spike as the main character in a couple episodes. Macintosh is starting to talk more. Discord has more air time and is now good. So we'll see more of that next season. Meh. Believe what you want, everyone has a different opinion. If you think that's true, go ahead, I won't tell you you're wrong. I'll simply just say what I believe.

 

Also that was 2012. So yeah, bit out of date. No, not a bit. It's out of date by two bloody seasons, and two years.

Edited July 19, 2014 by Brechard

[Mlpfan185 1,763]

Something was here. Something was here. Something was here. Something was here. 

Edited October 10, 2018 by NONAME

[HorsesandMOARGaloar 300]

@Detective Butler

 

If I were there, I would argue that "other than Spike, there's Shining Armor. Now he's less of a background pony, and has some extra role. When the Changelings invaded Canterlot, apparently Princess Cadence cannot drive them out alone, and neither would Shining Armor himself. They did it together, as their magical love can only be done with each other, not by one's self. And when King Sombra had his troubles in the Crystal Empire, he also had a role in helping Cadence kill Sombra off. So much for saying he's 'insignificant'."

[Invincible 2,092]

Doubt it. Sounds like cherry picking to me.

 

I don't feel like Spike's role is "minor", he appears in almost all of the episodes, have entire ones devoted to him, and is just as important.

 

Big Macintosh is a man of few words, not 'silence', nobody is putting him to slavery - in fact i think i like how he rarely speaks. Adds an element of mystery.

 

Shining armor's introduction into the show was a bit lackluster if you ask me, i suppose i can see why the author wrote this. But even his character was, and still is being explored and expanded on.

 

Besides, it's a fictional universe with it's own set of oddities - male vs. female ratio there being in favor of females. Of course the society there is more geared towards females - because there are lots of more females there to perform roles.

[Banul 3,831]

-Spike's puberty is treated like a disease so they try to make him a baby again.

This is because he was stealing everyone's shit, not because he was becoming a man. I would also argue that his transformation is not the kind of person HE wanted to be

 

-Big Mac's silence.

Big Mac is silent because he's the kind of person who doesn't mince words. He speaks only when he needs to. It ISNT because he's been silenced. That's silly. Furthermore his silence doesn't mean that OTHER males have been silenced. That is also silly

 

-Matriarchal society

Having female rulers doesn't make the kingdom inherently matriarchal. The leaders are female because the target demographic are females. We actually do have a token male leader in Shining Armor.

 

-queen Cadence is nice while King Sombra, a male, is evil

Sombra is evil because he's an asshole, not because he's male. This author seems to think that Queen Chrysalis doesn't count.

 

-Males don't seem to have important jobs

Big Mac is important at the farm. Shining armor is a prince now. There's also Prince Blueblood, though he is a douche. Also characters like Fancy Pants, Filthy Rich, Hoity Toity, and Trendehoof, who fill up prominent roles in Equestrian society. Also, mustn't forget Starswirl the bearded, who was Celestia's adviser.

 

-Spitfire leads the Wonderbolts instead of "any of the males"

There's only one male in the Wonderbolts. I don't think Soarin would make a good leader

 

-Sweet Apple Acres follows Granny Smith and Applejack. Big Mac has no say.

I think it's more accurate to say that the farm is family owned and operated. Big Mac has just as many responsibilities and chores as Applejack

 

-big Sisters are shown as more important than fathers

Why does this single out fathers and not also mention mothers? It places more emphasis on siblings that parents, this is true. Doesn't say anything specifically about fathers.

 

-male villains have worse motives than women

Subjective. Queen Chysalis wants to SUCK OUT PEOPLES LOVE. Discord went on the be a good guy.

 

 

 

 

Seems like a bunch of MRA nonsense to me.

[Sunny Fox 5,961]

-Spike's puberty is treated like a disease so they try to make him a baby again.

This is because he was stealing everyone's shit, not because he was becoming a man. I would also argue that his transformation is not the kind of person HE wanted to be

 

-Big Mac's silence.

Big Mac is silent because he's the kind of person who doesn't mince words. He speaks only when he needs to. It ISNT because he's been silenced. That's silly. Furthermore his silence doesn't mean that OTHER males have been silenced. That is also silly

 

-Matriarchal society

Having female rulers doesn't make the kingdom inherently matriarchal. The leaders are female because the target demographic are females. We actually do have a token male leader in Shining Armor.

 

-queen Cadence is nice while King Sombra, a male, is evil

Sombra is evil because he's an asshole, not because he's male. This author seems to think that Queen Chrysalis doesn't count.

 

-Males don't seem to have important jobs

Big Mac is important at the farm. Shining armor is a prince now. There's also Prince Blueblood, though he is a douche. Also characters like Fancy Pants, Filthy Rich, Hoity Toity, and Trendehoof, who fill up prominent roles in Equestrian society. Also, mustn't forget Starswirl the bearded, who was Celestia's adviser.

 

-Spitfire leads the Wonderbolts instead of "any of the males"

There's only one male in the Wonderbolts. I don't think Soarin would make a good leader

 

-Sweet Apple Acres follows Granny Smith and Applejack. Big Mac has no say.

I think it's more accurate to say that the farm is family owned and operated. Big Mac has just as many responsibilities and chores as Applejack

 

-big Sisters are shown as more important than fathers

Why does this single out fathers and not also mention mothers? It places more emphasis on siblings that parents, this is true. Doesn't say anything specifically about fathers.

 

-male villains have worse motives than women

Subjective. Queen Chysalis wants to SUCK OUT PEOPLES LOVE. Discord went on the be a good guy.

 

 

 

 

Seems like a bunch of MRA nonsense to me.

You have just won this thread. 10/10. You got everything right. Impeccable!

[Rainbow Eclipse 3,927]

I sometimes think that genderbent MLP would be misogynistic, with all the female antagonists our male protagonists go up against, and I then realise that would mean normal MLP would be misandric.

[\/ 651]

If we were snails or clownfish, genders wouldn't be a thing, and we'd all not be having this debate. Now sure, the show could be percieved as feminist, but it isn't really. The reason that it is that way is because it's foundation was very girly, and they can't drasticaly change that right away. They say Big Mac can't talk, but that's untrue. He just feels that talking is best done only when neccesary. Now their whole thing about Spike, I just don't see the point of bringing it up. He is definitely a big part of the show though, not just some filler character added for comic relief (but spike thought he was, huh). Now they ask why there is no main male character. They can't exactly immediately change the show by just swapping out one of the mane 6, can they? And they can't just add one onto that because there isn't enough time for character development and there are no elements left... (Bodybuilder: Hey, what about the element of manliness?)

 

In short, yes, the show can be interpreted as feminist. Yes, there are Bronies who are feminists, but no, it does not force these beliefs on anyone watching the show.

[SanityNotIncluded 335]

Before I begin addressing the article, I'd like to point out a few things. The first is to bear in mind that this was written in 2012, and that the show has changed considerably since then. The other is that I do believe the author is vaguely skirting around a legitimate point - namely, that the lack of decent male characters in MLP leaves it largely unable to directly address problems exclusive to boys. Despite all that, I disagree strongly with the way the author approaches the issue.

 

Spike is a baby dragon, not a pony, plus he has a minor role in the show, thus he cannot be considered as a main lead. Moreover, in one episode, he undergoes puberty and starts growing up as a real male dragon, this is treated like a disease that must be cured and the female leads do everything to turn him into a baby again. This is symbolic of females and feminists infantilising men in order to keep them under their power, this is highly misandrist of them to decide when Spike should be allowed to be himself or how he should be.

This quote has a lot of points, so I'll address each one seperately:

• Spike cannot be a main character because he is a baby dragon: While Spike is indeed called a "baby" dragon, it's generally understood that dragon biology is very different to pony biology. So despite being a "baby", his behaviour/intellect in practice seems to be very similar to the CMC. Like the CMC, most of his storylines involve some form of self-discovery and he is often shown to have something of a child-like immaturity (e.g his whole plan in Owl's Well that Ends Well).
• Spike is too "minor" to be a major character: I disagree for a number of reasons. Firstly, even when the article was written, Spike appears in nearly every episode alongside the Mane 6. I don't see how such a character could be considered "minor". Secondly, Spike plays a key role in a number of stories following season 2 - most notably The Crystal Empire and Power Ponies off the top of my head. In both of these episodes, if Spike had not been there, the Mane 6 would've been basically done for - something which one wouldn't really say about a "minor" character.
• On Spike's Development and Misandry: The way the author has worded this point seems to suggest that Spike's "male-ness" is the cause of all the problems in Secret of my Excess. In a nutshell, the problem is that dragons (as opposed to male dragons specifically) age by being greedy - and that greed and the person it makes Spike become is the source of the conflict. Based on what we've been told, this situation would logically play out in the same way if Spike were female.
• Infantalising Spike: I disagree that the episode infantilises Spike. While he's transformed back into a child on a literal level, like I said, dragon biology is different to regular biology. While he may have grown up on a purely physical level, I think most people would regard "growing up" to be something far more than just physical changes. To have a go at articulating that expanded definition, I would say that growing up is the attainment of adult responsibilities and freedoms. Indeed, despite some people technically being "adults", we will often deny their adulthood if they are perceived as neglecting said responsibilities. Following this leads me to two points: Firstly, to say that Spike is infantalised would be to suggest that his maturity acquired through adulthood has been taken away. This is impossible because evidently he never possessed it to begin with. Secondly, while Spike certainly isn't an adult by the end of the episode, I would argue the lesson he learns is pushing him in the right direction of adult maturity. Specifically, he learnt from his past mistakes that part of being a responsible member of society is to not be greedy. As for the comment about Spike's growth being treated like a disease, it isn't because he is a male growing up. Rather, Spike is rushed about from doctor to vet because Twilight doesn't understand is happening to him. While one could put this down to Twilight being stupid, it isn't borne out of a desire to stop Spike (as a male) from growing up and gaining maturity.
• Feminism and Symbolism: As I said previously, the episode is about Spike's greed, not the Mane 6 stopping Spike from expressing or acting for himself. Generally speaking, just because one sees a message in a piece of media doesn't mean it is there.

 

Big Macintosh is another secondary male character in the show. He is shown as a shy young stallion who lives in a matriarchal family and can barely talk. See? Males are reduced to silence in My Little Pony.

I agree with this insofar as that Big Mac is basically nothing other than a running joke and would be better as a more expanded character. However, the overarching tone of the article would seem to imply that this is the fault of Lauren Faust (and by extension, Feminism). However, based on what Faust herself has said, we know that this wasn't her intention. In fact, Faust wanted to do an episode where the Mane 6 take Big Mac's permissiveness for granted ending with them having to acknowledge their mistakes and apologise to him. However, this idea ended up being rejected - but not by Lauren Faust acting as a Feminist.

Source: http://www.equestriadaily.com/2012/01/cancelled-big-mac-episode-idea.html

 

 

Shining Armor is only there so that Princess Cadence can have a background story.

 

From the way Shining is portrayed in A Canterlot Wedding, I could actually see an argument that it reinforces negative stereotypes about men. Specifically, one could make the argument that Shining being controlled by Chrysallis reinforces the stereotype that men exist primarily as blind sexual beings. However, that doesn't mean I agree with the claim put forth by the author. Despite being controlled, Shining Armour is not a throwaway character for someone else's backstory. In A Canterlot Wedding, both Cadence and Shining Armour have to combine their luvey-duvey magic to defeat Chrysalis. Though he is sidelined more than I would've liked in this episode, if Shining hadn't been there to throw Cadence, she wouldn't have been able to save Spike. Finally, he has an active role in both Canterlot and the Crystal Empire. In the former he served as Captain of the Guard and was pretty much solely responsible for creating the shields around Canterlot. In the latter, he was shown leading the Athletics. He isn't only there so Cadence can have a backstory - in fact, he's played a vital role in several stories.

 

 

every male cartoon or anime nowadays has a prominent female character

I'm sorry, I couldn't resist. In all seriousness though, I think the author misunderstands the Feminist argument for greater gender inclusivity in films and whatnot. While I don't agree with everything that necessarily stems from this train of thought, it essentially goes like this: It's not so much that there aren't any women in films/TV, but rather that said women tend to be portrayed in ways which limit the agency of the characters. If people already possess similar ideas about women's agency, then the perpetuation of said stereotypes in media will only reinforce those ideas. Assuming that it's correct, this situation would harm both men and women, in a nutshell because it would cause one to be prejudiced about what a person of either gender is capable of/should do before they have tried to do it.

 

 

Yet, My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic has no prominent male character

I addressed this in my discussion of Spike and Shining Armour.

 

 

Equestria is a matriarchal society

From what we know of it, I would agree. However, given that MLP is marketed to little girls, I suspect the overabundance of female characters is more the result of overly Conservative marketing rather than any sort of conspiracy. Of course, I'm not saying I think this is a good thing - just that it isn't being done because the creators or the show hate men.

 

every male who tries to get power is a villain

Shining Armour is shown to be both Captain of the Guard and is shown to have responsibilities as a prince of the Crystal Empire. Both are very powerful positions. Another example is Fancy Pants. Through wealth, he has considerable power, yet he is from memory portrayed more sympathetically than his stuck up rich friends. Also, it's worth pointing out that most of the major villains (male or not) have aimed to gain power. While MLP doesn't show men in leadership positions that often, there's a big difference between showing lots of females in power and actively saying that men having power is wrong.

 

 

Princess Celestia and Princess Luna are both semi-goddesses queens, they have no know close relative and are immortal.

One could argue Prince Blueblood, but apart from that this is true.

 

Princess Cadence is shown to be the nice queen whereas King Sombra, a male, is a villain.

What the author says of these two characters is true, however that doesn't mean that the show doesn't have an abundance of nasty female villains, with the ones she mentions next notwithstanding - The Maneiac, Trixie and Gilda to name a few. As for...

 

1. Male villains have worse motives that female villains.

• Discord only wished to destroy harmony for fun.
• King Sombra wanted power but did not care about his people.
• Nightmare Moon really was Luna and deserved pardon.
• Queen Chrysalis was treated as a threat, but she was not that bad considering that she was trying to feed her people.

I disagree with parts of this analysis. While Nightmare Moon was indeed Luna and given pardon by Celestia, that has nothing to do with what motivated her to become evil (what the author's claim is based on). In fact, Luna was motivated by jealousy, so I don't see how that makes her makes her any better than Discord and Sombra as far as having pure motivations is concerned. As for Queen Chrysalis, I agree with the author's assessment of her character. However, given that the show itself does not show her any sympathy at all or draw attention to this, I don't think this constitutes the show sending a message that male villains are worse than female ones. This view also leaves out other female villains who certainly didn't have pure intentions either - for instance Gilda was motivated by insecurity and Trixie was motivated by boastfulness and a major superiority complex. In a nutshell, most FiM villains don't have sincere motivations regardless of gender - hence why they are villains.

 

 

Males are seen as a threat, they deserve no pardon, no mercy, they cannot be heard and have no positive motives, they ruin a perfect matriarchal society.

Most of this, I've already commented on at some point, but I'd like to clarify a few things. I apologise for being a little more flippant from this point forwards but I'm getting a little tired now (it's getting late here).

• Males are seen as a threat: Nope, as I've already explained, despite having a lack of male characters, there are plenty of males who are seen in a positive light.
• They deserve no pardon: I probably would've given the author this back in 2012, but given that a major part of Keep Calm and Flutter On/Twilight's Kingdom was to forgive Discord despite how much he'd messed things up, I don't think it really applies anymore (if it ever really applied at all)
• They cannot be heard: I agree that male voices tend to be less often heard in MLP than female ones, but as I said, this is much more likely to be the result of Conservative marketing than any real conspiracy. Again, like I said, it doesn't mean this isn't a problem - just that I think the author is getting at the wrong issue here.
• Ruining a Perfect Matriarchal Society: It was never perfect to begin with - if it was perfect, it would be a pretty boring show!

 

[MLP] teaches feminism, female superiority and matriarchy

I could write another paragraph addressing this, but I'm honestly too tired and lazy right now. So I'll use this image to sum up my reaction:

For the record, I don't mean any disrespect to the author by doing this - I just feel it's always good to break these discussions up with a little offhand humour. It can make discussing someting controversial a lot less antagonsing and intense.

 

Well, with that I'm finally done! How I spent my Saturday night writing this, I really have no idea... I suppose I need to get out more really.

[Thespian 78]

The person is just exaggerating details to get views. Nothing more. Any sane person can see the reason that there are more female ponies in the show than male is because it is a show for little girls, and little girls are more likely to take after girl ponies over boy ponies. And the whole "machintosh and spike are bad examples of males" thing is just stupid.

[xX_PinkDragon_Xx 417]

That's just someone being an idiot. Just ignore it and move on.

[Princess Lona 382]

People in this thread have done a pretty thorough job of refuting this author's arguments so I am only going to address the first one:

 

"Males are being underrepresented, there are no male lead characters in this show."

 

As has been mentioned, Spike is a main character, and he was at the time this article was written. It just may not seem like he was very main because of the small amount of episodes devoted to him. But this is not specific to Spike. All of the "main" ponies aside from Twilight get a relatively small piece of total screen time in each season because there are five of them. Eight if you include the CMC.

 

But what I really want to talk about is the underrepresentation of males in the show. To say that males are underrepresented in FIM is accurate. There are more female leads, more females in positions of power and leadership, and even more female background ponies. However, these facts do not make a strong argument to hold up the author's claim that FIM is misandric.

 

It is impossible for a piece of media to be misandric or misogynist on its own simply by not having enough of one gender of character. Each group of characters in a given piece of fiction are isolated within their own universe from other works. It is only when you take into account all fiction that you realize how gender ratios affect society's views on a particular group as a whole. If all the other fiction in our culture had a perfect balance of positive, well-rounded male and female characters, then MLP would tip the scales in favour of females and technically be the cause of cultural misandry.

 

But that isn't the world we live in. Due to the misogyny of humanity's past of which we are only now starting to break free, the majority of current fiction still has more interesting and nuanced male characters than female ones. There are plenty of places for young boys to go to see positive male role models in power and leadership positions, but still very few places for little girls to see the same thing for themselves. By having more female characters, MLP looks to balance things out a bit without taking a big dump all over men. The male characters on MLP aren't a bunch of boring stereotypes so it's not like they are being represented in a bad light, just no light. (Now if the author were writing about Equestria Girls, she might be onto something here )

 

As a last thought, just so it doesn't look like I'm trying to turn this into "Battle of the Sexes: Cultural Victimhood Edition" I want to give an example of a film that has virtually no female characters and is also not misogynist. Dead Poets Society. It takes place at an all boys school and has a cast of male characters who show courage, spirit, positivity, and a bunch of other great examples for boys. As I recall, the only female character is someone's mother and she doesn't play into the story much. In much the same way that Dead Poets Society is about males without putting down females, MLP is about females without putting down males.

Edited July 22, 2014 by Princess Lona

[Vixor 80]

No, it's not, from a doylist OR watsonian perspective. There aren't as many male characters being utilized to their full potential because it's a show being marketed primarily towards girls, not to mention one that has a goal of showcasing positive female role models that are fun and enjoyable to watch. With that in mind, we see more female characters getting the majority of screentime and thus ultimately having the bigger impact on the viewing experience, but the representation of male characters when we do get it is in no way negative, and there's been no indication whatsoever that they are any less capable or prominent in Equestria's society itself. 

 

I really do wish people would stop worrying about issues that don't even exist. Could the show have a bigger utilization of a male cast of characters? Sure, it could work, though it's certainly not necessary as the show is perfectly fine as-is. Does it's current low usage of male screentime suggest anything 'misandric' about the show, or the fictional society the show is portraying? Absolutely not. 

 

I hope I don't sound too harsh, but I've seen enough of this stuff to make discussing it more of a headache than anything. 

Edited July 21, 2014 by Vixor

[I used to be a stranger 7,994]

It is true that the show failed the Reverse Bechdel Test until the appearance of The Flim Flam Brothers (more-than-halfway through the second season was the first time two male characters appeared together for conversation), but I don't think that means the show is repressing the interests of males.

Edited July 21, 2014 by Blue