Philosothread: Metaphysics of Reality

[Aeros Sine 492]

Another attempt at reality.

 

If the mind is able to perceive the outside world, the physical world must be open to form. For example, say everything is made up like a grid and lines are dominate. Whether or not the lines take shape into physical form i.e. a car, it should exist even though it was created by the mind physically and mentally therefore reality is made of form outside of the mind. The waves of motion beat off the structure of the physical form of reality, forming the appearance of wind. the contour lines make up the matter in what the mind perceives. the light reflects off of the sky sending metaphysical lines to the brain, keeping contact and visualizing the realm of the world. The realm is natural to some certain matter though, one of which the mind can relate. In fact, the mind has a need for a certain substance to keep it in contact with reality. Without it, it loses the ability to perceive consciousness therefore leading to illusions and psychosis.

[twilight24 325]

I like this thread! I often ponder the universe and try to understand things better. Here is a thought though. Is knowing to much  (yes I think there is such a thing) bad or good? How far do we break are self's down into these small bases of science and neat categories. I just wish I could have some magic and unexampled things. Sigh .. ponderings of a simple young woman

[Steel Accord 6,660]

I like this thread! I often ponder the universe and try to understand things better. Here is a thought though. Is knowing to much  (yes I think there is such a thing) bad or good? How far do we break are self's down into these small bases of science and neat categories. I just wish I could have some magic and unexampled things. Sigh .. ponderings of a simple young woman

 

I disagree. Knowledge is power. There is never too much we can know, only lines that can be crossed with such knowledge. Besides, knowing how the sky changes color when the sun dips beyond the horizon doesn't make sunsets less beautiful. Knowledge of the how the universe works makes it more wondrous, not less.

 

All in my opinion.

[Discordian 6,023]

I like this thread! I often ponder the universe and try to understand things better. Here is a thought though. Is knowing to much  (yes I think there is such a thing) bad or good? How far do we break are self's down into these small bases of science and neat categories. I just wish I could have some magic and unexampled things. Sigh .. ponderings of a simple young woman

Knowing too much could indeed be considered a bad thing depending on what that knowledge will do to you. Given the right/wrong information and it could change your personality into something you never wanted to be. The difference between a blissful idiot and a miserable genius, as they say.

 

Hell, if some form of information changed what it meant to be human, or at least what people thought what defined humanity, it could change society as a whole. There are a lot of laws based on what is considered humane/inhumane but when that definition changes those very laws could change.

 

Taking that into consideration there's the idea of who we are now and who we are after this supposed change. We might care now whether that change would potentially make us monsters but afterward? Maybe not.

 

So too much information is both potentially harmful and helpful. Our need to remain human holds us back in a lot of ways. Just look at how many scientific and medical discoveries there have been under the watch of inhumane experiments during wartime. We may have never made such discoveries without that.

[Steel Accord 6,660]

 

 

Given the right/wrong information and it could change your personality into something you never wanted to be. The difference between a blissful idiot and a miserable genius, as they say.

 

What about a miserable idiot and a blissful genius? Really are you guys making this up? How is being stupid and ignorant good?!

 

Knowledge itself is just knowledge, it's what you DO with that knowledge that makes it right or wrong.

 

 

 

Hell, if some form of information changed what it meant to be human, or at least what people thought what defined humanity, it could change society as a whole. There are a lot of laws based on what is considered humane/inhumane but when that definition changes those very laws could change.

 

If that knowledge exists, then retaining it and keeping it secret is immoral. That's what this thread is all about. If we all really are in the Matrix or some such and people knew about it and didn't tell anybody, they'd be in the wrong for keeping a secret that people need to know.

 

 

 

Taking that into consideration there's the idea of who we are now and who we are after this supposed change. We might care now whether that change would potentially make us monsters but afterward? Maybe not.

 

I don't care now. Define "monster." If it means more machine than biology or my existing biology radically altered, I would not call that monstrous, I'd call that the purest expression of human will.

 

 

 

So too much information is both potentially harmful and helpful. Our need to remain human holds us back in a lot of ways. Just look at how many scientific and medical discoveries there have been under the watch of inhumane experiments during wartime. We may have never made such discoveries without that.

 

 

This ties back into my initial point. Knowledge itself is not evil, it's all in the methodology of attaining and acting upon it.

[Denim&Venöm 21,238]

I haven't thought about this in a while, and that's sad considering that if I do go back to college, it'll probably be for a Philosophy degree since that is what i have the most credits in. 

 

But a thought just occured to me, to maybe rationalize avoidance of questioning reality. Our own ponderings, our own questions and statements about reality, are actually a force for change within it. It's like the physics thought experiment schrodinger's cat. A cat in a box with a hammer and a jar of cyanide. We want to know if Schrodingers cat is alive or dead.  But if you open the box, the cat dies. It's an analogy on observing electrons. If you take a picture of an electron, that action changes the direction of the electron, influencing the behavior. Your actions shaped the outcome, rather than letting it unfold naturally. 

 

What if it's the same deal with reality? Our thoughts & actions change the reality around us. This can work in multiple ways. Either A. you work with the standard way of thinking regarding reality: you and a bunch of other people in a physical cosmos. Your actions subconsciously drive you to make alterations in your physical reality. One train of thought about reality starts a chain reaction, a butterfly effect, changing the course for all your actions into something else, and each of those actions effecting reality. It could be something as simple as thinking "I'm in charge of my own universe" which spurns you on to change the channel and find a show about pastel coloured ponies. 

 

Or the metaphysical option B. following the Descartes method, that this is a world all your own, or it's just you and a "divine creator", . Our thoughts will instead start events and cause our reactions, or cause the divine creator to react appropriately. 

 

Either way, the slightest thought about our reality, causes changes to it, influencing our actions or our destinies, no matter how miniscule or minute the changes may seem. 

[Discordian 6,023]

What about a miserable idiot and a blissful genius? Really are you guys making this up? How is being stupid and ignorant good?!

 

Knowledge itself is just knowledge, it's what you DO with that knowledge that makes it right or wrong.

An idiot who doesn't know something is wrong (or alternatively is sure he can solve the problem in spite of a lack of information) will be considerably happier than a genius who sees the problem, has to fix it or worse can't fix it and knows exactly why that is.

 

 

If that knowledge exists, then retaining it and keeping it secret is immoral. That's what this thread is all about. If we all really are in the Matrix or some such and people knew about it and didn't tell anybody, they'd be in the wrong for keeping a secret that people need to know.

I wouldn't call it necessarily immoral if that knowledge getting out risks calamity. Knowledge can be harmful specifically because of the way people react to it. If you suspect people will break out in riots you would keep that information secret. Or that's how a government entity thinks.

 

I don't care now. Define "monster." If it means more machine than biology or my existing biology radically altered, I would not call that monstrous, I'd call that the purest expression of human will.

I meant monster in the sense of people who would do things without considering the feelings of others. More often than not people hate that type of person.

 

This ties back into my initial point. Knowledge itself is not evil, it's all in the methodology of attaining and acting upon it.

I would never argue that knowledge itself is either good or evil but you have to take into account how that knowledge was obtained and how people will react to it. You can't introduce any kind of knowledge without a reaction from people, whether good or bad. You take knowledge that changes everything someone ever knew it's liable to break them completely.

[Steel Accord 6,660]

 

 

An idiot who doesn't know something is wrong (or alternatively is sure he can solve the problem in spite of a lack of information) will be considerably happier than a genius who sees the problem, has to fix it or worse can't fix it and knows exactly why that is.

 

And the idiot who knows something is wrong but can't even begin to fathom what's the problem or how to fix it, how do you think he feels? Ignorance is only bliss if everything is sunshine and rainbows.

 

At least a knowledgable person will always have options.

 

 

 

I wouldn't call it necessarily immoral if that knowledge getting out risks calamity. Knowledge can be harmful specifically because of the way people react to it. If you suspect people will break out in riots you would keep that information secret. Or that's how a government entity thinks.

 

And you know how I feel about government entities and how they think. I would also think that you of all people, Mr. takes the name of chaos would not be in favor of such.

 

If I found out a big secret, I would hold a meeting and tell people in a calm manner. People are less likely to react badly if they are given even ground breaking information in a controlled setting. Again, methodology is key here.

 

 

 

I would never argue that knowledge itself is either good or evil but you have to take into account how that knowledge was obtained and how people will react to it. You can't introduce any kind of knowledge without a reaction from people, whether good or bad. You take knowledge that changes everything someone ever knew it's liable to break them completely.

 

You give the individual person far too little credit, my friend. 

[twilight24 325]

I still stand with Discordant. Not to say people have to be mindless and dumb , just to know everything is a little much for human minds to fathom . On the other hand I see your point Steel Accord, that knowledge is power. And being blind and ignorant is not something to aim for.

 

I dunno, I'm happier without knowing all the terrible things. My weak human mind can only handle so much (I have some mental health issues)  Find middle ground . But sometimes I still like the sunshine and rainbows.

[Suukorak 354]

Another attempt at reality.

 

If the mind is able to perceive the outside world, the physical world must be open to form. For example, say everything is made up like a grid and lines are dominate. Whether or not the lines take shape into physical form i.e. a car, it should exist even though it was created by the mind physically and mentally therefore reality is made of form outside of the mind. The waves of motion beat off the structure of the physical form of reality, forming the appearance of wind. the contour lines make up the matter in what the mind perceives. the light reflects off of the sky sending metaphysical lines to the brain, keeping contact and visualizing the realm of the world. The realm is natural to some certain matter though, one of which the mind can relate. In fact, the mind has a need for a certain substance to keep it in contact with reality. Without it, it loses the ability to perceive consciousness therefore leading to illusions and psychosis.

I see what you mean. I'm not convinced that we're not already in the illusions, though.

 

 

 

the slightest thought about our reality, causes changes to it, influencing our actions or our destinies, no matter how miniscule or minute the changes may seem. 

 

This is true. As far as I can fathom, the difference is the directness and scope of the changes your thoughts can produce. If you don't like something in the "real" world, you still have to do something about it, whereas in the "false" world it might go away simply because you don't like it (or you haven't thought about it). However, perhaps the difference isn't all that big after all. My theory may be unfalsifiable, but it might also be inconsequential. We've seen how the world works. If we could have Matrix powers, either someone would have figured them out already or they're not accessible to us as we are. So it makes no difference.

Huh.

 

Concerning the ongoing discussion about the moral value of knowledge (I won't quote any particular point since I'll be responding to several at once):

It is my opinion that knowledge is morally neutral. It cannot be good or bad on its own. It can be interpreted as good or bad for someone's personal agenda, or by other means, but it has no intrinsic moral value. Therefore having too much knowledge is not a bad thing. In fact, when someone has knowledge that makes their lives worse, either an attitude change or more knowledge can usually counteract it.

For example, imagine you learned that you lived in the Matrix. If you're unhappy about this because you want your life to be "real," an attitude shift to prioritize happiness over a preference towards reality can counteract it. If you're unhappy because things have been hidden from you and the world is so much bigger than you're allowed to see, then learning how the world outside the Matrix really is can counteract that (either because you've explored it, or in the case of something like the movie itself, because it's a horrible place).

I've often come across the question of whether knowledge obtained by unethical means is tainted or bad. I don't think so - there's no reason to forsake any knowledge because of its history. What was bad was the action which obtained the knowledge unethically, but once it's done, the information is there and should be used for as much good as it can.

Finally:

 

 

I just wish I could have some magic and unexampled things.

What I love about this universe is that it's immense. It's virtually impossible to know everything, and even if we do, the future is still unknown, no matter how hard we try to predict it. Therefore we can push for all the knowledge we can get, and still wonder at the beauties of the universe. There are many things still hidden, and we know very little about the universe as a whole. One of my favorites is swarm behavior. For example:

Bees, when they're making cells in a honeycomb, try to make a circle. But there are many, many of them packed in together. Somehow, a combination of their density on the surface and their turning radius makes the honeycomb cells hexagons.

But I can still marvel at a thousand bees making wax circles... and ending up without a single one.

[Steel Accord 6,660]

I still stand with Discordant. Not to say people have to be mindless and dumb , just to know everything is a little much for human minds to fathom . On the other hand I see your point Steel Accord, that knowledge is power. And being blind and ignorant is not something to aim for.

 

I dunno, I'm happier without knowing all the terrible things. My weak human mind can only handle so much (I have some mental health issues)  Find middle ground . But sometimes I still like the sunshine and rainbows.

 

There's more combination in a deck of cards than there exists atoms in the universe. When you shuffle a deck, that specific combination may be the first ever to exist and may never exist again.

 

Dark energy and dark matter both make up more than 80% of the universe, the remaining being the matter and energy we can perceive.

 

There, did those little factoids make your head explode or send you tumbling into madness? Knowledge is not all dark arcana, it can be enlightening and uplifting! Why do you think the visual shorthand for getting an idea is a lightbulb? The pursuit of understanding doesn't make existence darker, it makes it brighter.

Edited March 22, 2015 by Steel Accord

[Suukorak 354]

 

 

There's more combination in a deck of cards than there exists atoms in the universe. When you shuffle a deck, that specific combination may be the first ever to exist and may never exist again.

I was curious about this, so I did some 1-minute research on Wolfram Alpha (which I find to be reliable). This isn't true for a 52-card deck. But it is for 60 cards (for example, a M:tG deck). Just a small disclaimer.

[twilight24 325]

Sheesh.. Calm down Steel Acciord I get your point. We can all be civil. And yes, the exist of knowledge is great, I know. I have the need for it. I was enjoying this form. You don't have to be defensive . (Though I'm a little hurt and defiance) I have a soft ego. I just don't appreciate feeling like an idiot. Oh well, back to the topic!

[Suukorak 354]

 

 

Sheesh.. Calm down Steel Acciord I get your point. We can all be civil. And yes, the exist of knowledge is great, I know. I have the need for it. I was enjoying this form. You don't have to be defensive . (Though I'm a little hurt and defiance) I have a soft ego. I just don't appreciate feeling like an idiot. Oh well, back to the topic!

I don't think Steel meant to be defensive or uncivil. It seems to me he was just enthusiastic about the wonders of the world. And I don't think anyone here wants anyone to feel like an idiot. We came here to think, and to feel interested, enlightened... excited.