Are the alicorns archetypes of deities in religion?

[Reiki Knight 13 1,461]

Do you think the alicorns: Celestia, Luna, Cadence, Twilight etc are archetypes of religious deities or no?

 

The most obvious one would be cadence being that of  a female version of cupid or eros of course but do you think such is true for the others or no?

[Metemponychosis 1,236]

I don't think they are. They are 'the chosen one'. And in a very shallow way for the ones who are not Twilight.

Cadance fits Eros (commonly people think of her as Aphrodite, but she is missing a lot of her personality). The cartoon completely ditched her love powers as the show moved on, though. It's the same problem I have with calling Celestia a goddess of the sun. Everything that makes them unique is more a consequence of existing in a world of high fantasy.

[They call me Loyalty 1,941]

Not necessarily. For once, they are real presences in their universe. While ours are archetypes meant to convey a given set of values and a moral structure to our lives. As well as to offer people a sense of common purpose and hope.
It is similar with the lottery, for example.
I was hearing this youtuber talk about the times he had visited this small group of people who played it religiously. Always the same people, always the same anticipation. The expectation. There was a sense of community to the group, even if the chances of winning were actually very slim. He still recognized that this was not the point.
But that this seemingly small practice was an important part of their lives, and that they needed it. They needed that sense of community and hope.
It was like the time I visited this charity dinner. I saw well dressed people there, who had the affordability to purchase food on their own. But they were there regardless. Because they needed that sense of community. Because we are social creatures in the end. And we need this interaction.

We are all looking for something. And some people fill this with their families, some with their work, some with addictions. Some with art. Some with training. Some with religion. Some with dreams. This is life.

[Reiki Knight 13 1,461]

13 hours ago, They call me Loyalty said:

Not necessarily. For once, they are real presences in their universe. While ours are archetypes meant to convey a given set of values and a moral structure to our lives. As well as to offer people a sense of common purpose and hope.
It is similar with the lottery, for example.
I was hearing this youtuber talk about the times he had visited this small group of people who played it religiously. Always the same people, always the same anticipation. The expectation. There was a sense of community to the group, even if the chances of winning were actually very slim. He still recognized that this was not the point.
But that this seemingly small practice was an important part of their lives, and that they needed it. They needed that sense of community and hope.
It was like the time I visited this charity dinner. I saw well dressed people there, who had the affordability to purchase food on their own. But they were there regardless. Because they needed that sense of community. Because we are social creatures in the end. And we need this interaction.

We are all looking for something. And some people fill this with their families, some with their work, some with addictions. Some with art. Some with training. Some with religion. Some with dreams. This is life.

Let me ask you this as a counter point and that is what exactly is "real" when you really come down to it?

 

Anyone can and often will see events depend entirely from their point of view, experiences etc.

 

Say for example you believe Celestia is real.

If you believe such hard enough you might eventually start to have events like seeing her, feeling her presence etc.

 

You could argue that such a is simple human desire and delusion but then you could get into a situation where you say have a injured arm and Celestia "heals" you by helping to numb the pain to the point your don't feel it anymore.

 

She leaves , and even your arm is still injured you don't even feel it anymore.

 

This leads to asking the question of how this is possible if you were truly all alone in that situation. If there was no healing magic how did you overcome the pain?

What was the "princess" to you then your own subconscious, your guardian angel etc?

 

The point while not perfect here I will admit simply being that within a certain point you can create your own reality in some sense. 

 

Sort of it's real because your mind made it real.

 

[Princess Celestia 615]

12 minutes ago, Star heart 777 said:

Let me ask you this as a counter point and that is what exactly is "real" when you really come down to it?

 

Anyone can and often will see events depend entirely from their point of view, experiences etc.

 

Say for example you believe Celestia is real.

If you believe such hard enough you might eventually start to have events like seeing her, feeling her presence etc.

 

You could argue that such a is simple human desire and delusion but then you could get into a situation where you say have a injured arm and Celestia "heals" you by helping to numb the pain to the point your don't feel it anymore.

 

She leaves , and even your arm is still injured you don't even feel it anymore.

 

This leads to asking the question of how this is possible if you were truly all alone in that situation. If there was no healing magic how did you overcome the pain?

What was the "princess" to you then your own subconscious, your guardian angel etc?

 

The point while not perfect here I will admit simply being that within a certain point you can create your own reality in some sense. 

 

Sort of it's real because your mind made it real.

 

Wow, this is advanced and deep for an MLP forum, to say the least.

 

But interesting! I would say (even as a Celestianist) that we ourselves do it in our solitude. A belief can help you "perform" impossible events and actions, just because you believe.

 

I've got something like a herniated disc, it hurts like hell. But by ignoring the pain it goes away (kind of). And I continue with physical work that needs to be done, and I manage to make the pain turn into a numbness.

Is that Celestia? Religion? Nah, it's my own will and stubbornness.

Then, of course, I love Celestia and Luna for the idea of friendship and eternal harmony. But that's enough for me.

They make my everyday pleasant and fun!

 

Just my 2-cents on pony religion.

 

 

[Vinyl Scratch. 604]

(Apologies in advance for the wall of text but I don't really have the brain power to try and make this more concise right now.)

I think there's some weight to this. I was thinking about this the other night when I was reading over one of your other threads, but I think it is potentially correct to consider the dynamics of at least the primary characters (maybe even just the Alicorn/Deitiy characters) of the show as a spiritual/religious canon or mythology (the other characters very well may represent the perspective of the human experience within this framework).

I know that religion isn't really supposed to be discussed outside of the debate pit but I don't think I can really answer the question without at least partially doing so. (mods feel free to delete this reply if it breaks site guidelines)

One way you can think about religious and spiritual mythologies is as a metaphorical description of the structure of the phenomenology of human experience. Take the Roman Pantheon for example, each deity can be seen to represent a different aspect of reality as experienced from the perspective of humanity (or any given human), and the mythological stories told about the dynamics and interactions of these deities can be seen as metaphorical descriptions of how these aspects interact with each other to create the reality we experience, and I think the same can be at least partly said about MLPFiM.

It's been a long time since I've watched the show so I can't give a lot of examples here, but a big one that comes to mind which also fits the theme of this thread is the dynamic between Luna and Celestia. There's a myth which permeates many different religious and spiritual systems that describes the dynamics of what we consider to be good and evil (which in this context can also be described as what we consider to be of benefit to the project of perfected reality vs what we consider to be of determent to the project of perfected reality).

In short, the myth essentially tells the story of how 'evil' is the manifestation of the dynamics of unaligned and uncontrolled aspects of reality which, in there unaligned state, cause destruction and chaos. These aspects however, if aligned properly, can be integrated and used in pursuit of what we consider to be good (one example of this is how uncontrolled aggression can be devastating, but when integrated and controlled correctly, this aggression can instead be channeled as assertiveness in the pursuit of good.)

I think there is a case to be made that the dynamic of Luna and Celestia is a retelling of this myth (I think there dynamic is also used to retell other myths but that's outside the scope of this example). Think of S2 E4 (Lunar Eclipsed) where, to paraphrase, Nightmare Moon becomes Princess Luna. Nightmare Moon can be considered to represent the manifestation of the unaligned aspects of reality which, in there current form, cause chaos and destruction (later on the character Discord appears to represent chaos more generally but that's not really what I'm talking about here).

In this episode, to quote the MLP wiki, "Twilight Sparkle helps Princess Luna change her frightening demeanor and become accepted by the other ponies.". To use the terminology I described above, Twilight helps the unaligned and destructive Nightmare Moon, who to the ponies at this point is considered an evil character, align and integrate with the 'good' reality of the ponies transforming her into the 'good' character Princess Luna, who still embodies the same aspects as she did before, but now they have been properly integrated and she is able to become a force which works with in line with the good.  (For those familiar with Jungian Psychodynamics this Myth can be described as the integration of the shadow)

 

This isn't something that is exclusive to MLP. In fact, a large amount of popular media is contemporary retelling of myths. The Harry Potter series is a metaphorical archetypal mythology for example. I believe Rowling even said this herself.

I apologies if some of the terminology I used here is confusing. I couldn't think of better words to use off the top of my head. But if you have any questions feel free to DM me and I can try to better clarify what I mean. I also don't claim to be 100% correct in what I say, this is all just based off my own understanding and interpretation.

I also imagine there are people on the forums who will have great arguments to debate what I've tried to explain here but this thread is not the place for that discourse.

Edited April 21, 2023 by Vinyl Scratch.

[Number62 1,247]

On 2023-04-20 at 7:36 AM, Metemponychosis said:

I don't think they are. They are 'the chosen one'. And in a very shallow way for the ones who are not Twilight.

Doesn't Twilight fit the criteria as a "chosen one" in a shallow way?

[Fluttershutter 2,120]

In a way. Sun and moon have been considered deities for all of human history and there are plenty of gods of love. Friendship is usually just handled by a god of love as well.

[EpicEnergy 22,086]

Those who designed FiM used Greek mythology in various episodes, such as the Hydra, Cerberus, Tartarus, and the Sphinx, so it would be logical to assume that the alicorns represent some of the Greek gods. I wouldn't say that the alicorns and the Greek gods are similar in every aspect, but both do share some similarities.

[Metemponychosis 1,236]

15 hours ago, Number62 said:

Doesn't Twilight fit the criteria as a "chosen one" in a shallow way?

No. I think she fits is perfectly. What I mean is that the other alicorns didn't fit very well.