Oh noes Dave Polsky:O

[Anadu Kune 668]

The problem with Polsky for me is that I don't find his comedy very funny, but he writes comedic episodes. I actually liked the moral of Feeling Pinkie Keen, but I disliked the episode because I found it unamusing and comedy was pretty much the entire episode. I liked his more serious writing in Too Many Pinkie Pies, though, which makes me curious as to how the Fluttershy episode will turn out. If he plays it for laughs, I'll probably find out what my new least favorite episode is. If he doesn't, we could be looking at something really good.

 

(I think that Polsky is a better choice for the episode than Merriwether, though, despite being a big Merriwether fan. Merriwether I feel would do a good job on Discord and Fluttershy, but she'd make everyone else look too bad.)

That's an interesting perspective on the matter that I don't tend to hear often(thats not to say many do not share it.). Im genuinely curious as to what you dislike about the comedy. It is true that that it is heavily reliant on comedy and in retrospect it may indeed be my main problem with the episode(though I did enjoy the comedy). 

Edited January 1, 2013 by Anadu Kune

[Cantankerous 106]

I'm going to calm down now. Anadu is correct in his assertion people need to be careful of letting their biases get out of control when it comes to writers they don't like. That said, just because even the best writers have their off days and vice versa doesn't mean an author can't be considered, on the whole, good or bad at their work. Dave Polsky, when it comes to mlp, is a bad writer. No, that's not an objective fact, it's my opinion, and I shouldn't have to explain that. Will Polsky's next episode be good? It's possible. Considering the plot synopsis I hope to God it is (well, I would if I believed in God, but that's neither here nor there) and now that I know beforehand he wrote it I'll have to work hard to control my biases and judge it fairly. I take issue with Anadu due to his seeming aversion to rhetorically strong language and his defense of Feeling Pinkie Keen but I would be remiss not the acknowledge the central point of this thread to be spot-on.

[Stellafera 3,836]

That's an interesting perspective on the matter that I don't tend to hear often(thats not to say many do not share it.). Im genuinely curious as to what you dislike about the comedy. It is true that that it is heavily reliant on comedy and in retrospect it may indeed be my main problem with the episode(though I did enjoy the comedy). 

 

I don't like comedy based around the universe hating someone for a day, which was basically the entirety of Feeling Pinkie Keen. It inspires more pity in me than laughter. It's a little harder to pinpoint why I don't like Over A Barrel, but it just sort of felt... in your face. Like "HEY LOOK AT ME I HAVE WACKY HUMOR!". The whole episode felt forced.

Edited January 2, 2013 by Stellafera

[pinkiefan1287 610]

Well I liked the episode, Feeling Pinkie Keen. It's one of my top favorite episodes that has Pinkie Pie in it. Now, I know why people hate it. It's because of the odd ending. Still I feel like the ending could mean anything. I always thought that the ending meant, Sometimes u aren't always going to figure things out and u just need to accept that. I know it's a weak idea, but still thats what I got from the episode. Also it was very funny and showed the wacky side of Pinkie Pie.

Edited January 2, 2013 by pinkiefan1287

[Le Kvlt Dawn 2,364]

I've always thought Feeling Pinkie Keen and Over a Barrel where two of the best episodes from season one. Too Many Pinkie Pies was decent but, Over a Barrel is really good.

[Starswirl the Trixie 975]

Yeah, not gonna lie, I've never understood the dislike, or sometimes outright loathing, that someponies have for "Feeling Pinkie Keen". I guess I'm partially biased, seeing as I am a conservative Christian, so I actually appreciate whatever subtexts in the message that can apply to religion there are in that episode, but still, I think the message is a good one for anypony.  As you and Faust pointed out, faith and belief DON'T just have to apply to religious belief and faith.  It can be faith in a people's character or integrity, faith in the historical interpretation of some event, heck, even faith in a scientific theory!  The whole point of the episode is, realistically, we cannot perfectly rationally explain EVERYTHING there is out there to know or learn through critical reason.  We simply can't, it's just not possible; we're humans, and as history has shown, we're hardly perfect!  

 

Now, does that mean that that episode, or myself for that matter, advocate blind, fundamentalist faith in anything, including religious beliefs.  Heck no; I think we should try to understand and explain as much as we can through natural reason and critical thinking, including whatever religious beliefs any of us hold, and I think the episode advocates the same thing.  Only conflict ensues from blindly believing in something without any reason to; the difference in the episode being, they're presented with something that clearly happens too often to be coincidence (i.e. Pinkie's Pinkie Sense) and yet can't explain it, so simply have to have faith in it.  It's the equivalent of what the first humans were presented with in the sun and the moon; could they explain at the time why the sun and the moon appeared in the sky.  No, but that didn't mean they weren't there, so the earliest humans had to simply accept that the sun and the moon were there without knowing how (a bit of a bad example, considering the sun and the moon ultimately proved explainable, but I think you guys get my point).  Point is, faith and belief are kind of a part of life, whether in religion, science, history, our relations with other people, or even in the foundation of our community, moral beliefs, or civil laws, and that's what I really think "Feeling Pinkie Keen" was going for.  It's why it has to date one of my favorite messages of any of MLP's episodes, since I for one found it to be unique, deep, and quite unusual for a children's show.

 

The problem a lot of people have with it is not that the episode says that certain things that cannot be rationally explained must be accepted.  David Hume, the famed philosopher, skeptic, and atheist, openly accepted that.  We may not know why something is, but it is still ok to accept that it is.

 

The problem lies in the notion that, because we accept that it is, we should stop our attempts to rationally explain it.  Twilight accepted that Pinkie Sense exists, but after doing so made no real effort to explain it.  Just because we know that something is does not mean that we shouldn't care about why something is.  The entirety of modern science is founded on that principle.  If anything, "Feeling Pinkie Keen" was not an endorsement of religion, but an indictment of science.

[Batbrony 16,054]

The problem a lot of people have with it is not that the episode says that certain things that cannot be rationally explained must be accepted.  David Hume, the famed philosopher, skeptic, and atheist, openly accepted that.  We may not know why something is, but it is still ok to accept that it is.

 

The problem lies in the notion that, because we accept that it is, we should stop our attempts to rationally explain it.  Twilight accepted that Pinkie Sense exists, but after doing so made no real effort to explain it.  Just because we know that something is does not mean that we shouldn't care about why something is.  The entirety of modern science is founded on that principle.  If anything, "Feeling Pinkie Keen" was not an endorsement of religion, but an indictment of science.

 

I suppose the episode's biggest problem then would be that it simply ran out of time trying to strike a healthy balance between supporting faith and reason in its message.  Granted, it did show Twilight for the majority of the episode trying to rationally explain Pinkie Sense, but I will admit that the final message did not really have anything positive to say about reason and critical thinking, but solely faith.  Again, as I said in my previous post, I don't think this was Lauren, Polsky's, or Studio B's intent, but I think they ultimately fell victim in this instance to their 22 minute time limit for episodes.  I mean, it's a complex message as it is, and hardly easy to tackle in an hour long class period devoted to it (such as a philosophy class), much less a 22 minute kids show.  So yeah, did "Feeling Pinkie Keen" fall short in executing its message, yes, I'd agree that it did; but I still think that that was not Studio B's intent.  I think overall they were hoping to present an episode that conveyed that both faith and reason may influence and direct one's thinking in a healthy and rather beneficial way, and simply didn't quite succeed in clearly doing so.

[TailsIsNotAlone 3,695]

Not to bash Polsky, he's just not the first one I would choose to write a sensitive episode like this. If it were up to me I would pick the only writer who ever wrote for Discord, M.A. Larson.   But we'll see how it goes...

Edited January 2, 2013 by TailsAlone

[Anadu Kune 668]

 

 Gah! Really man? When a person says a work of fiction is great/good/okay/bad/awful/etc it's left as an understood that they're saying it has that level of quality in their opinion. That's common sense!

 

 About swaying my position, of course he isn't- not with the standard "But Lauren Faust apologized!" argument. Sorry, but that anti-intellectual message- the one stereotyping rationalists/skeptics and close-minded cynics- is still in the episode intended or not. What was the intended message is meaningless compared to what message children are going to get out of it, and that message is awful.

 

 Why am I standing by the position that this episode is anti-intellectual? Simple, Julia Galef's arguments are better than yours. Come up with arguments that can trounce hers and I'll listen. I'm a rationalist, of course I will.

 

While I'm at it....

 

"Oh and to clarify, I am NOT, I repeat NOT trying to convert anyone over to my opinion. I do not wite these out of anger. I only write this because at least one person seemed to think so. I do this for fun. I examine criticsm of the episodes to see if they warrant calling an episode lacking in quality."

 

 You SHOULD be trying to convert people over to your opinion! You're forwarding an argument!

 

Since I apparently need to explain this let me do so through telling you about an experience I had regarding mlp recently. I watched three reviews (by DigibronyMLP, Strebiskunk, and Brony Nutcase) of the season one episode Boast Busters and found, to my dismay, they were negative reviews and, even worse, they were making a compelling case against the episode. I don't know how I can defend this episode that I like so much. Their arguments are better than mine. Do I like admitting I've been wrong and that Boast Busters is a bad episode? Hell no! But I'm a better informed, smarter person because of it. They converted my opinion to theirs and I'm grateful for it. This is how discussion works, we learn for each other.

 

No offense was meant but it is my experience that when an criticism or argument is started with an assertion or blunt statement that person is much less likely to budge from that stated position. I used to be as such years ago.

 

I find that trying to convert someone is far too forceful, and may indeed only stand to weaken your stance to those viewing it. Its a big reason I have heard for those who dislike bronies, some overzealous bronies try to convert others rather than just offering their perspective. Your opinions if presented clearly have the potential to change another person's opinions. I however don't go in with the intention of changing others opinions I merely present mine and hope I was clear enough for someone to get something out of it. 

 

Im am not trying and will try not convert you. I merely present my stance. If you get something from this exchange good, if not that's ok too. I dont think Im going to go any further with this though I probably could go into more detail. Im not going to derail the thread with this. 

 

 

I'm going to calm down now. Anadu is correct in his assertion people need to be careful of letting their biases get out of control when it comes to writers they don't like. That said, just because even the best writers have their off days and vice versa doesn't mean an author can't be considered, on the whole, good or bad at their work. Dave Polsky, when it comes to mlp, is a bad writer. No, that's not an objective fact, it's my opinion, and I shouldn't have to explain that. Will Polsky's next episode be good? It's possible. Considering the plot synopsis I hope to God it is (well, I would if I believed in God, but that's neither here nor there) and now that I know beforehand he wrote it I'll have to work hard to control my biases and judge it fairly. I take issue with Anadu due to his seeming aversion to rhetorically strong language and his defense of Feeling Pinkie Keen but I would be remiss not the acknowledge the central point of this thread to be spot-on.

 

 

It should be noted that my "This episode is terrible... Why it isn't" segments are kind of parodies. The name states both assertions right off the bat in a silly manner. Any rhetorically strong language encountered in those are over exaggerated opinions similar to those the written segments oppose. Though perhaps that's not clear and I am not going to write any more of those as more than one person has responded to them a bit negatively. Perhaps I will write a more indept segment on Pinkie Keen if time willing.

Edited January 2, 2013 by Anadu Kune

[Magic Man 222]

The problem with using Dave Polsky for this episode is that he is best at comedy. 

 

But Discord is a very comedic character. A villainous one, sure, but still chiefly comedic, so that could easily be in Polsky's favour. True, it is a world-building episode, but that doesn't mean it has to be dead serious, especially it's Discord.

 

I won't lie, I too am a tad unsure of how this is going to work out, but we need to have more faith in the writer. I mean, look at Merriwether Williams. Most ragged on her until she hit the ball out of the park with Wonderbolt Academy. This cold be Polsky's turn to win back the audience.

[Stellafera 3,836]

I won't lie, I too am a tad unsure of how this is going to work out, but we need to have more faith in the writer. I mean, look at Merriwether Williams. Most ragged on her until she hit the ball out of the park with Wonderbolt Academy. This cold be Polsky's turn to win back the audience.

 

HA! I KNEW SHE WAS BRILLIANT EVER SINCE HER FIRST EPISODE! 

 

Wait a minute, I liked Mare Do Well. Is that a good thing or a bad thing?

[Cantankerous 106]

I am not going to write any more of those as more than one person has responded to them a bit negatively.

 

Don't let people (including me) get you down. If their criticisms are valid take that as an opportunity to improve, not a reason to stop. What you've been doing is good, despite the issues I've taken with it in this thread. Stopping now can only be a loss.

Edited January 2, 2013 by ByTheTides

[Anadu Kune 668]

Don't let people (including me) get you down. If their criticisms are valid take that as an opportunity to improve, not a reason to stop. What you've been doing is good, despite the issues I've taken with it in this thread. Stopping now can only be a loss.

Not stopping merely changing my approach. My future postings I think will be much more along the lines of my post on Too Many Pinkies. Still brief with outlined points and a silly title though not one I think that will be quite as contentious. I may do another This Episode is Terrible... why It isnt. Though I think doing something similar but different might be better as those posts only addressed complaints and not the strengths the episode had to offer. 

 

http://mlpforums.com/topic/44026-exploring-the-depths-1-too-many-pinkie-pies/

[brian577 120]

 I mean, look at Merriwether Williams. Most ragged on her until she hit the ball out of the park with Wonderbolt Academy. This cold be Polsky's turn to win back the audience.

 

There were a lot of mixed responses to Wonderbolt Academy.  From Spitfire's voice, to her conduct and seeming approval of reckless behavior until Dash called her out on it, to the ambiguous ending that was only up cleared thanks to a released alternate ending to claims that Lightening Dust was dealt with too harshly to Pinkie being at her dumbest.  I thought it was a fine episode with the exception of Pinkie, but not everyone felt that way and I would hardly call it hitting it out of the park. The only time I truly felt she truly put out a top tier episode was Putting Your Hoof Down. 

[XMark 18]

The thing I've noticed about Polsky's episodes is they always seem to have uncomfortable potential implications when you think through their themes.

 

Pinkie Keen: Felt like an anti-skeptic, pro-religion episode. Totally disagreed with the moral behind it. Then again, it does leave a large degree of ambiguity in its specific intended meaning. I'm sure there's lots of ways to interpret the moral of this episode.

 

Over a Barrel: Over-simplified candy-coated representation of a real conflict in American history which, in real life, ended overwhelmingly negatively for the Native Americans. It could even be considered insulting to portray the conflict with pie-throwing.

 

Too Many Pinkie Pies: There's all sorts of possible explanations about where those Pinkies came from, and almost every possible explanation leads to questions about the nature of consciousness, and whether it was morally right to zap them all back into the pool, or what fate awaited the Pinkies. Whether they existed as sentient beings or soulless automatons, etc.

 

Polsky writes some pretty clever humorous gags, I'll give him that. I just find myself too distracted by the questions raised by his storylines to really enjoy them though. Maybe I'm just overthinking it. Then again, most other episodes of the show hold up to deeper thought. I'm thinking that Dave Polsky probably has all these thoughts in mind himself, but is unable to follow through within the confines of a kid-friendly show.

 

So here's my prediction for Keep Calm and Flutter On: It'll probably leave unanswered moral questions on whatever methods they use to reform Discorm. The question being whether it's morally correct to forcibly reprogram him to be good against his will when the only alternative is to keep him in his stone form forever (basically, death)

[Akemi Homura 7,680]

It's worth noting that his style of writing may not be up to par in terms of creativity compared to someone like Meghan McCarthy or Cindy Morrow. Dave Polsky's as well as Merriweather Williams' episodes tend to be on the dramatic side, incorporating more of the action elements you would see in real-world scenarios than charming ones you would find everywhere else. While it has its own charm, among an older audience it's perceived to be much more ambiguous and as a result, mixed reactions tend to come out of it. Some of Polsky's contributions include writing an episode about two conflicting sides fighting for land, complete with a town clash (Over A Barrel), Pinkie Pie and Twilight attempting to run away from a hydra (Feeling Pinkie Keen), and in the latest one, "Spike At Your Service" involved AJ and Spike being in immediate danger from a very large timberwolf ready to rip them both to shreds.

 

While ambitious and appealing to me personally, if this isn't executed properly, the show's charm will be under fire and will cause people to lose interest. Remember, this is a family show, not Teen Titans. Incorporating too much drama/action can be detrimental if not done right. It's like going for it on 4th down in football - if you make the play happen, you get a new set of downs and gain momentum (a lot, actually), but if you fail, you turn the ball over and lose a lot of confidence. That's what appears to be the issue with Polsky, though I suspect if there were more episodes in season three, the gap wouldn't be as narrow for acceptance and people would have cooler heads.

[immblueversion 331]

So much fear and negativity, and we still have two weeks to wait for the next episode. On top of that, I don't plan to look at any videos or images of the episode until I see the whole thing.

 

I hope the episode leaks early, otherwise this is gonna be a loooooooong month.

[Mu Nova 66]

C'mon, Discord, bro. Just come to the realization that not ruling Equestria and/or the world is worth being free. Don't let them force change on you.

 

PLEEEEEAAAASE

 

Though I'm confident that that's not really going to happen. Something of the sort, maybe, but changing something major about him like that would take away from why lots of us are so fond of him--he wouldn't be Discord, anymore.

 

And this being such a fanservicey season, I just really don't see it happening, lol. Looking forward to seeing just what does happen. Just some hours left...

[immblueversion 331]

And this being such a fanservicey season, I just really don't see it happening, lol. Looking forward to seeing just what does happen. Just some hours left...

 

Yes, just 329 hours until we get to the episode that some people are dreading whether or not will be worth the wait because they didn't like the writer's previous episodes.

 

Which reminds me, apparently, there was some Twitter response from Dave saying how excited he and the other staff are for when the episode comes out.

[Stellafera 3,836]

Which reminds me, apparently, there was some Twitter response from Dave saying how excited he and the other staff are for when the episode comes out.

 

You know what, that makes me excited. It sounds like he is being pretty serious about this episode and the rest of the staff is too. I'm hoping for something awesome!

[immblueversion 331]

You know what, that makes me excited. It sounds like he is being pretty serious about this episode and the rest of the staff is too. I'm hoping for something awesome!

 

That's why I want to see it again. Can anyone find it? It makes also me excited, but I forgot exactly what he said.

 

Also, John de Lancie did leave some subtle hints during his appearance in the game "Quantum Conundrum", though nothing revolutionary or mind-boggling:

 

Edited January 5, 2013 by immblueversion

[SBaby 660]

It is something that needs to be handled just right. However as I have mentioned before it has been done with the character you-know who is based on, and it was done well. To be honest Im extremely interested to see where this will leave us in the season finale.

 

Bear in mind, the character that you-know-who is based on never really reformed and actually went on to be an antagonist beyond the scope of the series he was first introduced in.

 

That said, this is My Little Pony.  Despite the fact we've gotten excellent writing overall, I don't foresee that happening at all in this episode.

 

As for the issue at hand, I really don't think Dave Polsky is nearly as bad of a writer as people think he is.  Granted, I did facepalm when I saw the fight scene in Over a Barrel (though still a good episode), but there was also Feeling Pnkie Keen, a favorite among fans.  Honestly, it kind of makes sense for him to write this one, given the random nature of the character in question.

Edited January 8, 2013 by SBaby

[immblueversion 331]

Well, we know that it's in Fluttershy's nature to show kindness to others, and that the rest of the Mane Six have good reason not to trust Discord. Dave Polsky has handled the conflict where neither side is really wrong or bad in "Over a Barrel". I guess what we all want is for this episode to strike a balance between Fluttershy's conflict with her friends and her interaction with Discord without going too much in favor of either side. This shouldn't be a "black vs. white" plot; it should be "white vs. gray", or "gray vs. grey".

[brian577 120]

Bear in mind, the character that you-know-who is based on never really reformed and actually went on to be an antagonist beyond the scope of the series he was first introduced in.

 

No, you-know-who went from being humanity's greatest enemy to it's greatest advocate.  By the end of the series he was introduced in he helped save humanity, pretty big development since in his first appearance he put it on trial.

[immblueversion 331]

No, you-know-who went from being humanity's greatest enemy to it's greatest advocate.  By the end of the series he was introduced in he helped save humanity, pretty big development since in his first appearance he put it on trial.

 

Hell, Q outright said in his second appearance that he's gone from calling humanity an inferior race to one that's actually worth studying. Even if he does like to get under their skin once in a while.

Edited January 9, 2013 by immblueversion